Gottman article: Turn Towards Instead of Away

[Notwendy]

Pete, I think an apology from someone with BPD is very hard to get, if even possible. I think it triggers a huge shame reaction that may be overwhelming. I think it is human nature to defend the ego- but their own sense of self is so fragile that a small thing could feel like a giant threat.

I've observed they use what I call the "dry erase board" method. If they realize they went too far, they do something good. Then in black and white thinking " see I am good now" and the bad didn't happen.

Maybe that is behind the motive for Woodchucks wife paying for the car repair. It's a way of "being good". I still see this as a positive. I see the "dry erase" as a positive too. If they didn't care at all, they wouldn't have done it. But asking them to talk about it or really apologize may be beyond them.

Depending on how severely affected they are, they may not even recall what they did. My BPD mother is very severe and when she dysregulates, it seems as if she has reset her brain somehow. I think this is how she handles painful feelings. Once she has done this, she feels fine and because she feels fine, she expects us to feel fine as well. Another poster used the term "word vomit"  - like a kid with a stomach ache feels better after they throw up. I don't think she recalls much of what she has said or done when she was flooded with emotions. Other times she does seem to recall. However, those of us who saw and heard it recall it.

I think higher functioning people do have memory but the shame trigger an apology causes may be overwhelming to them.

I wouldn't however provide an out reason for them. They come up with their own reason. I am not sure pushing for an apology is helpful- but if they are feeling remorse for what they did- that is their feelings to manage and we can let them be with that without causing more hurt.

I had to learn to not take word vomit personally. Hearing this has felt very hurtful to me, but taking the perspective that is isn't about me has helped.

[formflier]

I had to learn to not take word vomit personally. 

And... .at the same time, hopefully find something to validate or that just might move the r/s to a more positive place.

Check out my other thread I made this morning about an email my wife sent to me complaining about sex.

Luckily... .I didn't take it personally... .because what she "alleges" happens versus what actually happens is so ridiculously far apart... .  Yet I understand she has a very intense feeling around this (and likely other things)

See Notwendy stories about "never cooking"... "never" having sex with hubby... etc etc.  I actually remembered those stories as I read the email this morning and said to myself "Ok FF... this isn't about you and it's not about how the sex actually happens"... .most likely "It's about intense feelings I have" (perhaps about sex)

FF

[Woodchuck]

Notwendy-
I guess I never looked at it as trying to change her thinking but this actually what it is.  The questions that I posed about being a failure/horrible person were meant to be rhetorical as I know I am not but with the steady barrage of 'attacks' it is difficult to not let that pink elephant try to be convincing.

It is interesting that you bring parents up as she is a lot like my dad was, very controlling and it was his way or no way etc.  She is like him but on steroids.

I think that I have helped too much in many ways and the homework example is a great way to look at it.  It can be difficult at times due to the protector/rescuer mentality that I tend to have.  It can be quite difficult to determine where the line is between helping and helping too much.  I am slowly understanding and putting into practice not taking her 'attacks' personally.  It is not an easy thing to learn but it does make me feel quite a bit better about myself.

Talking about apologies, I can count on one hand how many apologies she has offered over the years (not including the standard, 'I am sorry you choose to feel that way'.  I truly believe that she is incapable of apologizing as you suggested.

I do think that there is a dark part in her childhood that she has never talked to anyone about.  She claims that she had a well balanced childhood and she would not change anything about it.  I just don't buy it.

FF-
You make a great point about carrying others burdens.  What makes it a bit difficult is there is a combination of guilt mixed with the desire to help/rescue.  So a bit of the carrying is done to try to make up for past mistakes that are still obviously open wounds.  What I am slowly realizing is that I could work myself to death and it would not help.  I could feed into her statements about being relieved if I was dead and kill myself in an effort to help her find relief but I understand that would not happen in reality.  Using your analogy of the concussion, it has never healed but I think that it hasn't healed because I have worked to hard on healing it for her.  It is almost like one person having cancer and their partner going in for chemo over and over to try to heal the other person based on the fact that the cancer they had was in part due to the second hand smoke from the cancer free person.  It is their fault because they made the poor choice to smoke and the cancer patient continuously reminds them of that.
The problem that I have with the arguing is that I actually enjoy a healthy argument. If we are discussing politics or some other high conflict issue at work, I will typically take the most volatile position just to poke the bear.  This is not something that works well with pwBPD.  If I didn't understand JADE, I would be be the king of JADEing and I have been the king of JADEing in the past.  In large part because I want to be understood but there is also a part of me that just wants to debate as well.  I have all but eliminated that from communication with her as much as possible.  It is really eye opening how big of an impact that has.
I did see your post about the sex issue.  It sounded quite familiar but in reverse.  I have to work on depersonalizing things but it is difficult.  I mean, how do you communicate with someone that tells you 'no' after asking you what you would like.  They already know full well what you like, so why do they ask if they are going to say no?  Again it is probably about control, but how do I change my response? 
As far as Notwendys stories about never cooking and never having sex, I can really relate as my W will say that she is tired of taking care of EVERYTHING and she is the only one that does this or that and I never do this or that and then I work my tail off to try to meet the need that it seems that she has communicated but it never really works out because as Notwendy pointed out, I am trying to change her thinking even though that is not what I feel like I am doing. 

I probably missed a few points that I wanted to respond to but this will have to do for now.

WC

[Cat Familiar]

Woodchuck,
Perhaps I get an idea of what you are trying to do when you jump in to take responsibility for things or to fix things for her. I sense your motivation comes from being altruistic and helpful and at the same time, perhaps thinking, maybe if I do _____, then she'll be happy or in a better mood.

I've done the same thing myself. Just a few minutes ago, I caught myself on the verge of trying to "fix" my husband's upset.

Today we've got a window washer here, tackling all our windows, not only in the house, but in several outbuildings. It's getting late in the day and we have dinner reservations in a couple of hours. He was getting upset, thinking that the windows might not be finished by the time we need to leave.

Of course, true to style, I invalidated him, saying that N. is making good progress and if we need to, we can change our dinner reservations to later. As per usual, my attempting to smooth things over just made him more upset, so I left him to stew alone in his studio, with a bright, "It will all work out" as my parting remark.

If I'd thought about it, I would have validated his feelings, rather than trying to be logical and pragmatic. But I didn't and once I had stepped in it, I realized that a swift exit was better than staying on my present course.

Chances are he will take the time he needs to calm himself down and maybe the window washer will return on another day, maybe we'll just give him a check and be on our way to dinner, maybe he will get all the remaining windows washed before we have to leave. It's not something I'm going to spend any time worrying about, unlike my husband.

I'm trying to do my best, observe my patterns of communication, and notice when I overstep my bounds, and when I do, to change course as soon as possible.

It's a learning process. 

Cat

[Notwendy]

I find myself stepping in to “fix” feelings before I’m even aware of it. I try to stay mindful of it but it’s very ingrained from childhood.

It’s intesting that you mentioned your wife wishing you were dead. I’m glad you realize that won’t fix her feelings. My parents had issues and my mothers issues did not go away when my father died.

I was my mother’s black child and as a teen she told me I was the cause of my parents marriage problems and told me they were planning to send me away to school . I wasn’t a problem child so where she came up with that I don’t know. They never did send me away but when I left home for college I believed my parents would be happy. A younger sibling later told me things didn’t change.

You do have an influence on the drama between you due to your side of things but her part isn’t due to you.

[Woodchuck]

I find myself stepping in to “fix” feelings before I’m even aware of it. I try to stay mindful of it but it’s very ingrained from childhood.

It’s intesting that you mentioned your wife wishing you were dead. I’m glad you realize that won’t fix her feelings. My parents had issues and my mothers issues did not go away when my father died.

I do want to clarify that she said that she stated that she would be relieved if I was dead and that is different that wishing I was dead according to her.  I have discussed this hurt with her more than once and she always points out that she didn't say she 'wanted' me dead, she would just be relieve if I was.  I think no matter how the statement is made, it still hurts the same, I just find it odd that she likes to pick it apart and try to 'justify' it.

I was my mother’s black child and as a teen she told me I was the cause of my parents marriage problems and told me they were planning to send me away to school . I wasn’t a problem child so where she came up with that I don’t know. They never did send me away but when I left home for college I believed my parents would be happy. A younger sibling later told me things didn’t change.

You do have an influence on the drama between you due to your side of things but her part isn’t due to you.

While this is not most likely directly in line what you are talking about, I think it is important as you are talking about childhood.  My W told our D11 a few months ago that she had a black heart.  I truly hope that our D11 did not internalize that statement.  It still makes me angry to think about it now.  I think a large part of why it bothers me so much is because my dad would tell me that I was a 'prodigal son' when he was unhappy with me and that still affects me to this day.  I have been able to pretty much work through it but it is just one of those things that will probably stick with you and come up from time to time.  The things we say to our kids have a very lasting impact.

WC

[Woodchuck]

Woodchuck,
Perhaps I get an idea of what you are trying to do when you jump in to take responsibility for things or to fix things for her. I sense your motivation comes from being altruistic and helpful and at the same time, perhaps thinking, maybe if I do _____, then she'll be happy or in a better mood.

Cat-
You hit the nail square on the head and drove it in all the way with one swing.  This has been my mentality and as you pointed out, it is completely futile.  I think that is why now I am having a hard time determining where that appropriate line is between doing enough and doing too much.  It is all very complicated but the good thing is that I am at least thinking about all of it now as I have not in the past.

I've done the same thing myself. Just a few minutes ago, I caught myself on the verge of trying to "fix" my husband's upset.

... .

I'm trying to do my best, observe my patterns of communication, and notice when I overstep my bounds, and when I do, to change course as soon as possible.

It's a learning process. 

Cat

It is so easy to just let something out without thinking.  It is almost like walking through a minefield and not paying attention for the mines.  It is a learning process, but the good thing is that there are things that we can learn to make things better.  It is great that you are paying attention to patterns and making adjustments.  It takes a lot of focus!

WC

[Notwendy]

The two qualities- projection and denial are ways of defending their ego from shame and keeps them from seeing their part in relationship dysfunction.

These kinds of statements - that she'd be relieved if you were dead- aren't about you, but wishing away her own pain and projecting it on you. It's making you the scapegoat. It's a pink elephant. Rather than discussing the semantics of that statement, let it go.

As an adult, you have the experience and maturity to know it's a pink elephant. A child does not. I believed my mother when she said those things to me, just like what your father said made an impression on you. My H doesn't have a BPD parent but his father said very critical things to him when he was growing up too. Our FOO's do influence our choice of romantic partners and one of the issues in my marriage is that we both were inadvertently triggering each other's childhood hurts. I might say something and my H would hear his father's voice and verbally lash out. I would then feel hurt and try to emotionally fix both our hurts. We were both on autopilot with this pattern. Change the pattern for the better and you not only change the patterns in the marriage, you may also change the pattern for your children.

[Woodchuck]

The two qualities- projection and denial are ways of defending their ego from shame and keeps them from seeing their part in relationship dysfunction.

These kinds of statements - that she'd be relieved if you were dead- aren't about you, but wishing away her own pain and projecting it on you. It's making you the scapegoat. It's a pink elephant. Rather than discussing the semantics of that statement, let it go.

I am finally at a point where I am letting it go.  There were several dark months where I thought about it daily.  But I am past that now for the most part.

Our FOO's do influence our choice of romantic partners and one of the issues in my marriage is that we both were inadvertently triggering each other's childhood hurts. I might say something and my H would hear his father's voice and verbally lash out. I would then feel hurt and try to emotionally fix both our hurts. We were both on autopilot with this pattern. Change the pattern for the better and you not only change the patterns in the marriage, you may also change the pattern for your children.

This is very true.  What makes it difficult in our relationship is that I am the only one that is open and honest about childhood hurts.  Instead of being open and honest in return, she inflates the hurts in my childhood to be much more than what they are and insists that all our problems are based on my 'warped' childhood'.  I am able to see past this and I am focusing more on trying to help both of our children develop and better their communication and coping skills.  Hopefully it will all pay off.

WC

[Notwendy]

I don't think we can get them to look inward at things. I know that I tried. Compared to my FOO, my H's family looked like a Norman Rockwell painting but that was mainly by comparison to the dysfunction in mine. I wanted to learn more about my H's family but he maintains they were normal. Taking a closer look, I could see issues. He has told me some of the things his father said to him, which in my book would be verbal abuse. I don't think my H realizes the impact of things his father said to him, or what my H has said to me. Both our "normals" were influenced by our FOO  and they cause relationship issues. My "normal" was to be an enabler. His was to verbally lash out like his father did.

It helped me a lot to recognize my own triggers and also see his. I could see where something I may have innocently said would be very hurtful to him. It also helped to work on my own triggers and stay calm when I felt them, and not react as we'd get into a place where we both triggered each other. This wasn't the same as walking on eggshells, but I knew when we'd stepped in that mudhole and that it was time to stop the conversation. A MC did help us both with that.

It was interesting to be working on issues with two different people but similar patterns. I think my H is more on the traits side and BPD mother is severe- but seeing where someone was triggered and the automatic reaction- to lash out with hurtful words was helpful- because I saw it in that context- and did not react to the words. This cut down on the drama between us significantly.

I think it would help to not expect your wife to process her hurts like you do. I think people cope with feelings in different ways. Denial/Projection are strong defense mechanisms. When she is "hurting you" with hurtful statements - it's her pain talking. If you don't take it personally you won't escalate it.

[Cat Familiar]

I find it really odd that my husband seems incapable of being self-analytical beyond a mere cursory look. I think he will start to look inward and then stop when he sees issues that trigger shame. When in the past, I've brought up a problem (I know not to do this anymore  ), I've often heard him say in his own defense, "I'm not totally bad," in a voice tone that sounds like a little boy.

I was perplexed when I'd hear that. At the time, I was trying to make him aware of some relatively insignificant thing that had gotten on my nerves, such as leaving his wet laundry in the washer for days until it started mildewing. In my mind, there was no "bad" it was merely a "Would you pay a little more attention to this?" kinda issue.

[Notwendy]

Cat, I think we are sister wives!

If I bring up an issue or something that happened the reply was " it wasn't all bad" as if there is a binary choice- all good or all bad and if it wasn't all bad it goes into the good section.

Or " I wasn't all bad".  So that means no problem!

"Bad" isn't even in the lexicon. I think my H is a good person but even good people can have conflicts. This kind of reasoning makes it difficult to resolve them through discussions.

[Enabler]

Childhood trauma typically results in a confusing between:

"I did a bad thing"
&
"I am bad"

Children take criticism holistically "I am bad", adults take criticism on a case by case basis "I did a bad thing"... .Core shame.

Sorry, that's probably a bit of a 'suck eggs' explanation for you two.

[Cat Familiar]

I know, Notwendy! The vocabulary, the similar responses. It's like they've read the same playbook.

Certainly this type of response effectively shuts down dialog--and maybe that's the intent.  

You're right, Enabler. Anything that triggers the core shame, whether it be "Did you throw away yesterday's newspaper?" can lead to self-flagellation, which seems ridiculous to a non, given the circumstances, but very real to a pwBPD.
 

[Notwendy]

It's true enabler and especially when one has a critical parent it is easy to have a shame trigger.

I've had them and they feel awful. It takes some work to identify them for what they are- that also helps to empathize with someone dealing with them if we have felt them ourselves.

Making one mistake can trigger them.

[Enabler]

Having an emotionally immature parent who is incapable of taking responsibility for their own actions, and whom has to apportion blame to EVERY error regardless of it's significance or accidental nature destroys little minds. I wince when I hear my W deflect responsibility of her own ineptness onto our little ones. Fortunately I'm arming them with the shield of rational defense... .yesterday for example:

W - I'm so busy doing all this packing for you girls, I've got to get the car packed before it gets dark
D8 - If you hadn't agreed to 'friend' coming over you would have had loads of time, besides, it's your holiday as well with your friend.
W - <huff>

[Woodchuck]

Having an emotionally immature parent who is incapable of taking responsibility for their own actions, and whom has to apportion blame to EVERY error regardless of it's significance or accidental nature destroys little minds. I wince when I hear my W deflect responsibility of her own ineptness onto our little ones. Fortunately I'm arming them with the shield of rational defense... .yesterday for example:

W - I'm so busy doing all this packing for you girls, I've got to get the car packed before it gets dark
D8 - If you hadn't agreed to 'friend' coming over you would have had loads of time, besides, it's your holiday as well with your friend.
W - <huff>

If my S14 or D11 would use that response, they would be attacked for being disrespectful.  I was shopping with the kids last night and my D11 wanted to get a boxed cake mix to make.  She made it today while I was at work and according to her, the eggs separated but in reality she did not mix the batter well enough which resulted in scrambled eggs and cake.  It was really quite funny and good learning experience I thought but all my W could focus on is the wasted food and how incompetent our D11 was.  I kept reassuring her that it was just a mistake and that is how we learn and we will get another one and I will help her with it.  I stayed calm but I really wanted to give my W a piece of my mind.  It as just completely rude.  Fortunately our D11 seemed to take it in stride.  I too am trying to arm them with the tools that I am trying to learn myself.  I think they are doing a very good job all considered.

WC

[Notwendy]

It's tough to be there every moment to intercept what kids hear from a BPD mom but I do think that doing what you can to validate them can go a long way. It was only when I faced my own co-dependent behaviors did I recognize them in my father, yet, I attribute a lot of my resiliency to him. What may be different with my BPD mother is that she had little interest in raising us, so we had a lot of time with him.

The cake mix incident with your D reminded me of when my mother would make me bake as a teen. She'd sign up to bake something for our school and then tell me to do it. Once, I accidentally burned something and as you imagine, it didn't go well- with accusations that I did it on purpose. Good for you for allowing your kids to learn from mistakes. I imagine we messed up a few recipes before getting them right.

Interesting parallel- my H would be angry and grouchy with me if I didn't cook dinner, so I cooked dinner out of fear and began to resent it. Maybe this has something to do with it. I think our childhood fears do influence our behavior in relationships.

[formflier]

Good for you for allowing your kids to learn from mistakes. I imagine we messed up a few recipes before getting them right.

Lots of dirty kitchens and "interesting" recipes at FF house as kids try them out.

We often (once a month... sometimes more) do a think where the kids cook and parents clean up.  Sometimes that is matched up with a think where everything on the menu is a new thing... .made by a different kid and then we do the "food critic" thing.  The gist is we are looking for new items as "keepers".

We also figure out "cost per plate"... .since that is a factor in my house... .

FF