Video: What Do Children Owe Abusive Parents?

[JNChell]

I happened across this video/audio on the web. I hope it doesn’t get moved to the less visited board. Trigger Warnings! It talks about all forms of abuse by parents from different perspectives. If anyone wants to start a discussion on the content, I’m in.  

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cQcjOQ2-saw

Edited to add: Stefan Molyneux, host of Freedomain Radio, reads the recent Slate.com article "The Debt: When terrible, abusive parents come crawling back, what do their grown children owe them?" by Emily Yoffe.

[Harri]

It is an interesting article that he reads in this video.  I don't disagree with anything that was read.  I do very much agree with what was said about forgiveness.  that it should not be forced, it is not a must and if the victim ever wants to reach forgiveness it must be on their terms and involve acknowledgement of the abuse.  I also really liked that it was said that sometimes closure is not realistic and some doors have to remain shut.

The talk of forgiveness is something I think is important for everyone here at this site to recognize.  I found this article a while back on Psychology Today: Essential Secrets of Psychotherapy by Stephen Diamond, PhD.Sept 28, 2012  https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/evil-deeds/201209/essential-secrets-psychotherapy?page=2
Forgiveness cannot be forced. Giving someone your forgiveness prematurely, prior to really feeling it, is not in your best interest. Yes, it's good and spiritually "correct" to forgive those who have hurt us or somehow negatively impacted our lives. It may make those receiving your forgiveness feel better about themselves and less guilty. But it is not natural. Not at first. And, frequently, not for some time. Forgiveness is a basic psychological process, and the process must be honored and slowly worked through in order for forgiveness to occur. When we are ready, forgiveness seems to happen. And not a moment sooner. But, at the right time, forgiveness is fundamentally an existential choice: to hang on to anger, resentment, hatred and rage or to finally let it go. And perhaps harness or redirect that rage for productive purposes. Forgiveness can, in a sense, be considered a constructively selfish choice, since it is ultimately psychologically beneficial to relinquish toxic resentment and embitterment. (See my prior post.) But to feel angry or resentful about having been insulted, violated, abandoned, abused or victimized is natural, totally normal, and must be where the forgiveness process starts. Where we are. Not where we would like to or feel we should be, spiritually or philosophically speaking. In this sense, being righteously angry, properly pissed-off, accepting and honoring rather than minimizing one's rage and inherent right to be furious, is the first courageous step on the sometimes long and painful path toward forgiveness. Forgiveness, of course, is not the same as forgetting. We can, in due time, forgive even those who refuse to acknowledge their injurious actions--though this makes forgiveness exceedingly more difficult than granting it to those who do. But to forget bad behavior is foolish. And dangerous. Forgiveness is fundamentally an expression of spiritual compassion for the evil deeds of our fellow humans, malicious or unintentional, and an acceptance of the hidden shadow in us all. But it must never become a naive, blind denial of the deep-seated and pervasive human capacity for evil. Forgiveness, like charity, at best, begins at home: Learning to forgive ourselves for our own mistakes and misdemeanors can help to feel more compassion and forgiveness toward others. In turn, practicing forgiveness of others can make us more forgiving of our own frailties, weaknesses and missteps.

I will further add that I do not think forgiveness is a requirement and I don't believe that  not forgiving my parents, for example, is against God or makes me any less healed than someone who claims to have forgiven.  My definition of forgiveness means I am not holding onto and consumed by my anger, pain and hurt, though I still feel those things.  I can't imagine not feeling those things.

My parents are both dead.  My dad died in his sleep.  I found him.  It was upsetting but I was relieved and sat for a few minutes before I called 911 (it would not have helped to call sooner).  My mother died in the hospital and surrounded by me, my father, brother SIL and many of her doctors who loved her and came by the hospital when they heard she was dying.  We, the family, all made choices about her care.

Prior to their deaths, my mother was sick (though she never told us she was terminal) and my father was okay but they were both old but able to care for themselves.  No nurses or home care needed (could have used a house keeper though for the heavy stuff).  My mother died first then my father.  I am thankful because I don't think i would have been able to handle caring for them... .and I am not certain I would have been able to say no back then not even for my mom.  I had already nursed her when she had her first bout with cancer before I even knew about BPD/mental illness.  That was bad enough.  To do so after?    After I finally accepted that she sexually and emotionally and mentally abused me and basically trained me to live my life for her?  I am thankful I did not have to face that.

My mother died thinking they were good parents and I was an ungrateful, uncaring, possessed by the devil daughter that she was burdened with.

Forgiveness, to the degree that I have reached, has been a slow process that has evolved as I've worked through my own pain and healing and as I have learned to forgive myself for my own short comings.  It is still on going for me.

[Turkish]

"The loyalty of children even the worst of parents makes perfect audiological sense. From an evolutionary perspective, parents, even poor ones, are a child's best chance for food shelter and survival."

[In experiments with rats... .] "when in the presence of the caregiver, the infant brains fear and avoidance circuits are suppressed. Attachment programs the brain. The ability of a child to say "I don't like my parents, but then do things to continue to get the parent's approval is an example of the strength of human attachment in early life."

[JNChell]

Hi, Harri.

I do very much agree with what was said about forgiveness.  that it should not be forced, it is not a must and if the victim ever wants to reach forgiveness it must be on their terms and involve acknowledgement of the abuse.

I worked through this with my T this evening. Whether or not it sticks on the first go ‘round is yet to be seen.

After my mom died, my dad couldn’t take care of himself. He was a child in a man’s body. He couldn’t manage anything. He was taking 44 pills a day! All prescribed. Mom managed all of that for him. Sis and I conclude that he mixed his meds, and that’s what killed him. I’m sure that the loneliness he experienced after mom died didn’t help.

There was an instance when he called me after mom died, and began to state that “I wasn’t such a bad kid, and didn’t deserve what I got”. I cut him off immediately. He was soothing himself. One of the few times that I listened to my instincts.

Through emotional discussion, my T helped me realize that the abuses that were laid (pounded) on me were not my fault. Wise mind tells me that these things aren’t my fault, but my actions and decisions say otherwise.

will further add that I do not think forgiveness is a requirement and I don't believe that  not forgiving my parents, for example, is against God or makes me any less healed than someone who claims to have forgiven.  My definition of forgiveness means I am not holding onto and consumed by my anger, pain and hurt, though I still feel those things.  I can't imagine not feeling those things.

The part of your post that struck me the most is “I can’t imagine not feeling those things.” Harri, you have to kindle the fire with the idea of imagining your feelings without those things. Or, at best, with those feelings being processed and properly put to rest.

Forgiveness? S**t. I’m never forgiving my dead parents. They had their chance. I called them out, they chose to gaslight.

My parents are both dead.  My dad died in his sleep.  I found him.  It was upsetting but I was relieved and sat for a few minutes before I called 911 (it would not have helped to call sooner).  My mother died in the hospital and surrounded by me, my father, brother SIL and many of her doctors who loved her and came by the hospital when they heard she was dying.  We, the family, all made choices about her care.

I understand your relief to a point. I was glad that the chaos was over, but sad at the loss of any closure.

Both of my parents are dead as well. Unfortunately, not dead to me. No closure.

Prior to their deaths, my mother was sick (though she never told us she was terminal)

My mom died from cancer. She had a grapefruit sized tumor in her leg before it was removed. Remission. It came back and overtook her body. It wasn’t long. I held her hand when she passed. She/we had hospice care/help.

Dad died 4 months later. I have a very small soft spot for my mom because she put up with my dad, but in the end, and at one point a chance to come clean? No. I was a child. I have a child and my parents were wrong.

[JNChell]

Turkish.

"The loyalty of children even the worst of parents makes perfect audiological sense. From an evolutionary perspective, parents, even poor ones, are a child's best chance for food shelter and survival."

We knew what we knew, and we clung to it. There is no way that we couldn’t have.

In experiments with rats... .] "when in the presence of the caregiver, the infant brains fear and avoidance circuits are suppressed. Attachment programs the brain. The ability of a child to say "I don't like my parents, but then do things to continue to get the parent's approval is an example of the strength of human attachment in early life."

Familiar.

[Harri]

There was an instance when he called me after mom died, and began to state that “I wasn’t such a bad kid, and didn’t deserve what I got”. I cut him off immediately. He was soothing himself. One of the few times that I listened to my instincts.

I understand this.  My dad did something similar and let me know he knew my mother was sick even before he married her.  It was all about him and making him feel better and all it did for me was make me angry and I hurt even more.  Validation, even a backhanded sort of validation, does very little when it comes down to it. 

I worked through this with my T this evening. Whether or not it sticks on the first go ‘round is yet to be seen.

I don't think forgiveness is a once and done sort of thing, not for this sort of abuse and damage.  Forgiveness, much like radical acceptance, is often a daily choice for me. 

Through emotional discussion, my T helped me realize that the abuses that were laid (pounded) on me were not my fault. Wise mind tells me that these things aren’t my fault, but my actions and decisions say otherwise.

This.  This is so hard as the deeper you dig and the more you heal another layer pops up and you find bits of the abuse scattered throughout your being.  Thoughts, actions, beliefs get processed over and over until you are finally rid of the effects of the abuse and even then sometimes even years later, you find it is still affecting you in a way that you never saw before.  It is a process.  I hate that truth but I see it as progress too.  It still pisses me off though.

The part of your post that struck me the most is “I can’t imagine not feeling those things.” Harri, you have to kindle the fire with the idea of imagining your feelings without those things. Or, at best, with those feelings being processed and properly put to rest.

They are put to rest... .until they rise up again and I look at them and process them on another level.  That is what I mean.  I can't imagine looking back and thinking about certain events and not have it spark anger or hurt or sorrow.  I am not afraid of anger or hurt or sorrow so feeling those things are not a problem for me.  But allowing them to rule me?  Whole different story.  I once got to the point where all was well, calm, no anger... .it was a facade and unrealistic and an illusion *for me*.  You may have something different going on.   Everyone is different.   My T tells me that peace is possible and that means being at peace with my feelings; being okay with my anger and not suppressing it.  Being okay with the fact that sad things happened to me.  Being at peace with the fact that none of this can be changed... .but I can have peace.  Anger is not always just being full of rage and violence.  Anger is a healthy response to abuse and it is righteous in some cases.  It just is, just like love. 

Heh, can you tell this is something I've spent a lot of time thinking about and working through?

Closure is tough especially when you don't get it though I will say I am not sure how I define it.  I am not aware of missing out on closure.  How do you define it?  Can you describe it for me please?

I agree that your parents were wrong.  I am so sorry they did not see you for the precious boy you were and the man you have come to be.  Their failings and inability to be good parents is not your failing and says nothing about you JNChell.  Not one thing.  You are valuable and precious and they missed out. 

[Pilpel]

Thanks for the link.  I looked it up in itune's podcasts, and found it under freedomain radio: volume 6, #184.  I just listened to the "what do we owe abusive parents" and the episode about Adam Lanza.  Really fascinating.  Interesting stories about Pres. Lincoln and even Warren Buffet.  I hadn't heard those stories before. 

[Notwendy]

Here is the article in print:

www.slate.com/articles/life/family/2013/02/abusive_parents_what_do_grown_children_owe_the_mothers_and_fathers_who_made.html

[Harri]

Hi Notwendy!  It is always good to see you here.  Thanks for the link to the article. 

Pilpel, hearing about President Lincoln and his relationship with his father was interesting.  Who knew? 

[Turkish]

Someone tell the biblically illiterate that the ten commandments post date Abraham Rebecca and Jacob by 500 years 

Interesting story about Lincoln.  It goes a long way to explain why he married Mary Todd, who is thought to have been bipolar or BPD.

[Harri]

Harri is hearing a Parrot saying "all roads lead to PSI"... .

[Kwamina]

Harri is hearing a Parrot saying "all roads lead to PSI"... .

Did someone say my name?  Nice quote

[JNChell]

Harri, thank you for your kind words and support.

I don't think forgiveness is a once and done sort of thing, not for this sort of abuse and damage.  Forgiveness, much like radical acceptance, is often a daily choice for me.

I’m accepting that it’s ok to not forgive people that have abused me. I have been under the misconception that it is fundamentally wrong to not be able to forgive. The idea of that is that I can’t move on unless I do. I don’t subscribe to this ideology anymore. It just doesn’t sit well with me. I am hoping that I raise S3 well enough to not forgive anyone that may potentially abuse him. I’m speaking from a virtuous angle, not a predictable one. We don’t owe people that have damaged and taken so much from us. Deprived us. That responsibility lays with them, either in the grave or on the ground. The residual BS, as you know, is enough to deal with. If an abuser desires forgiveness, they will acknowledge, accept, confess, exhibit participation in healing... .and crawl back on their knees asking for a conversation. Anything less is dangerous for the abused.

Anger is not always just being full of rage and violence.  Anger is a healthy response to abuse and it is righteous in some cases.  It just is, just like love.

I agree. It doesn’t have to be so emotional or reactive. It can be sat with and processed. That’s a learning curve for me. I was never taught to process my anger. My household was anger. It was the norm. I know you understand.

Sounds like you have a good T. That makes a world of difference. It’s really quite something to build trust with an unbiased stranger that we see once a week, or however often, to the point of sharing our deepest and darkest stuff.

Closure is tough especially when you don't get it though I will say I am not sure how I define it.  I am not aware of missing out on closure.  How do you define it?  Can you describe it for me please?

Personally, closure would have been acknowledgement, acceptance, describing what they did and a plea for forgiveness. Followed by a healthy pattern of parent/child relations. A tall order that was impossible while they were alive. This is where RA kicks in, and it does. Any apology would have been solicited. I’ve worked in sales. Statiscally, it takes 5 “No’s” to get a yes when closing a deal. I tried once with my parents and closed the deal myself. There was no commission in it for me. It was a dead deal. A lead card thrown in the trash can under my desk.

[JNChell]

Hi, Pilpel! I agree. Lincon’s description was interesting. Also, as mentioned by Turkish, he ended up with a disordered wife. It’s not unbelievable or folklore. It gives me perspective. Ya know? This isn’t a modern day fad that is fed by political and ideological perspectives. It’s been around as long as parent/parents have used their children. I’ve not heard about Adam Lanza. Any chance that you can provide a link?

[JNChell]

Notwendy, thank you, thank you for the article in print. I’ll be bookmarking it. You took care in the members here in doing so. Would you like to say anything else?

[Harri]

JNChell said: 

I’m accepting that it’s ok to not forgive people that have abused me. I have been under the misconception that it is fundamentally wrong to not be able to forgive. The idea of that is that I can’t move on unless I do.

  A lot of people feel that way.  It doesn't work for me as it only leads to suppression of feelings, guilt, shame.  A lot of religious/spiritual people believe that and if it works for them that is okay.  I just got done listening to a podcast on Resiliency after sexual abuse and it summed up how i feel about forgiveness:  It is important that I forgive myself for unwarranted guilt.  To forgive myself for going along with the abuse even though I knew it was wrong, for allowing it to happen, for enjoying it and feeling pleasure and even for seeking it out some times.  So much guilt for something I was groomed for from birth.  It does not just apply to sexual abuse but to the emotional abuse as well.  Still clinging to our abusers and being unable to say no and feeling so upset for *them* when we decide to break ties and differentiate.  Not all of us struggle with guilt and forgiveness but some of us do and in those cases, self forgiveness is vital.  As for forgiving my abusers?  I will leave that to them and God to figure out. 

We don’t owe people that have damaged and taken so much from us. Deprived us. That responsibility lays with them, either in the grave or on the ground. The residual BS, as you know, is enough to deal with. If an abuser desires forgiveness, they will acknowledge, accept, confess, exhibit participation in healing... .and crawl back on their knees asking for a conversation. Anything less is dangerous for the abused.

Well said.  And with better and fewer words than I used above! 

It doesn’t have to be so emotional or reactive. It can be sat with and processed. That’s a learning curve for me. I was never taught to process my anger. My household was anger. It was the norm. I know you understand.

I do.  Way back when, in my teens and 20's i thought I had to wear my anger like a cloak.  I was a badass with an attitude (that was how I saw myself) and took nothing from anyone... .except my mother of course!  haha.  I look back and I can only shake my head and laugh... .Hulk Maaaad!  Ridiculous.  Anger just is JNChell.  It is what we do with it that matters right?  Get all Hulk like?  Nope.  Serenity Now!  Nope, not that either.  Somewhere in the middle.

Now you have me wondering what closure would entail for me.  Like you, I don't think I ever would have gotten it, not the way you describe it.  I give you a lot of credit for trying.  It was important to you and you tried... .that is not a failure on your part.  It was just another failure of your parents added to a long list of failures for them.

About Mary Todd Lincoln, I was reading the other day that one newer theory of what happened to her with her behavior was pernicious anemia which was pretty common back them (a B12 deficiency).  It is all but eradicated these days.  Wish it were that easy to cure people of BPD.  Ms Lincoln certainly had a lot of bad things happen to her.  Regardless of the cause, I too am not surprised poor Abe hooked up with a woman who was "a bit off". 

Kwamina, "Nice quote".  Nice?  Wise I say.   

[Learning2Thrive]

I am late to this conversation and there is no crying my eyes out emoji. This helps  

Seriously, my opinion is that we owe our abusers ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

What is working for me is visualization of each abuse as the trigger to flashback occurs and a gigantic pair of scissors cutting the cord that binds me to the abuse.

Understanding that possibly my mother was INCAPABLE due to her mental illness helps me understand why it happened. Not an excuse, but an understanding and that understanding helps me accept that it was not my fault, as she wanted me to believe. Nor was it my responsibility to manage, as she also wanted me to believe.

Knowing she is actively pursuing my destruction by feeding my adult daughter BS is another story altogether.

And yet, I am blessed. Yesterday my sweet pup left me with these wings. He showed me a new level of love and acceptance. He knew I would need them now. I’m still trying to figure them out.

I’m very thankful for you JNChell. You aren’t afraid to get real and face the tuff stuff. And so very thankful also for Harri, Wools, Kwamina, Turkish, Panda, zachira, other ambassadors and staff, and our new members who are willing to open up and share. This family connection makes such a huge difference in healing.  

Much love,

   L2T