Physical needs during the down times

[Woodchuck]

As many of you know, things have been very tumultuous in my relationship for quite some time.  The current 'down time' is at about 2 months with no end in sight.  We are sleeping in different rooms and barely talking.  I have attempted to talk but she is set on either the ST or trying to bait me into an argument.  Anyway, there has been no physical intimacy in 2 months.  One of the longest stretches in our relationship aside from when I have been away for work for months at a time.  I have attempted to initiate intimacy on a few occasions in the last few weeks but been pushed away.  I am not sure how to continue to deal with that in a healthy way.  On top of that, as I have mentioned in previous posts, she will typically just switch from how she is now to wanting to be close and that is just a huge turn off for me.  So what is a healthy way to deal with that if/when it happens?  Is it best to just 'go for it' if she approaches me and try to not let the switch bother me or is it better to tell her that I would prefer some kind of resolution first.  I know this post may seem a little conflicted as I have attempted to initiate in the last few weeks but I guess the way I see it is, I am not the one that is angry or holding out on trying to make things work.  I am just a bit confused... .

WC

[jsgirl360]

Ouch. This is such a difficult situation and there are no easy answers. From reading your posts, your W's behavior is quite similar to my H's.

I've been in the situation where he refused intimacy for months, even when I attempted to initiate.  Each time he refused me, my self esteem would get a little bit lower.

Eventually he would initiate, I believe due to his "basic need" and not really out of desire to make things right with me.  Once he initiated and I obliged, he would begin to initiate regularly as if nothing happened... .until the next bout of ST.

If you were dealing with a healthy person, the most obvious answer would be to reach a resolution before intimacy... .and you would work together to find that. With a pwBPD,  it's not so easy. If you insist on first finding a resolution, the result may be a few more months of ST. To us, that sounds ridiculous,  but in the mind of a BPD, it makes perfect sense. If you just "go for it", you might not be fulfilled and may even end up feeling resentful.

It takes 2 people in a relationship to resolve a conflict.  If one is unable/unwilling,  it is very difficult to make things happen. I've read your posts and I admire how much you're willing to work to help your W. Conflict resolution seems to be especially difficult for some BPD's. As I've mentioned in a previous post, throughout our marriage,  me and my husband have not resolved a single conflict,  regardless of how willing I am. Do you feel like your wife is able to work towards resolution?

[Woodchuck]

Jsgirl-
Good morning!  In short, no I do not believe that she is either interested or capable af true resolution for any issues.  Issues/hurts are still brought up from over 18 years ago.  Just last week she ask me to write a list of all the things I have done wrong.  I have already dine that many times.  Her way to justify asking is to claim that I have never really been sorry for anything.  According to her, I just want a resolution to get what I want, but she can never tell me what she is referring to as far as what I want (I think what she is referring to is completely unrelated to sex). 
I think you are correct about most likely feeling resentful and I really don’t want that.  I guess what complicates things is that I don’t just want/need the physical ‘need’.  I think I crave the emotional bond that comes with true intimacy just as much. 

WC

[Notwendy]

IMHO, if she initiates, trying to establish resolution first would not go well.

My own observation is that pwBPD are in victim mode and if she reaches out and you say woah- I need some discussion first, she will take that as a rejection and not initiate as much.

It isn't ideal but if you want any kind of physical relationship you should accept the offers as much as you feel you can or want to. Discussions may or may not happen later, but in the moment of her attempt- you would risk triggering her feeling rejected.

I used to get the ST and physical rejection from my H and it was very tough to take. I realized later it was in response to some presumed "slight" on my part that I wasn't even aware of. Sometimes it was making meaning out of something I said or did that didn't even have anything to do with the perceived "slight". I've learned to just accept that I can't read minds, and feel if someone is upset it is their responsibility to tell me. The ST is very tough, but I think it is part of a pattern of thinking that I can't change. By "used to" I would say I learned to keep busy and not let it bother me as much, and ironically it seems to have diminished and if it happens I don't let it get to me as much as it used to.

I think if someone is to stay married, it would be far worse for the marriage to be sexless. Her ST may or may not have anything to do with you. ( although she may blame it on you). It's her own thinking. Asking for resolution may not be productive as sometimes if someone is dysregulated or upset, they may not even be clear on their reasons. If she is still interested in physical connection, and you want that too, I would nurture if she does initiate.

You said you did try, but have you tried something romantic like asking her out on a date?

[Woodchuck]

Notwendy-
I have tried the romantic approach for many years and that doesn’t usually go over well.  I have initiated going out on several dates but there just seems to be nothing there. I don’t recall the last time that she initiated going out on a date. The combination of it seeming like she could care less about me setting up a date and her not showing any interest in setting anything up just makes it feel like a waste of time.  Cards/flowers/gifts are out as she does not appreciate them and makes sure to tell me so.  According to her, she is a practical person and thinks romance is ‘stupid’.  She will tell me that I should have married someone else. I really dislike hearing that, so the fear of hearing those things probably keeps me from continuing to try.

WC

[Notwendy]

If you have tried that, and been repeatedly rejected and told she doesn't like it, then I'd let it go.

I think you are in a tough situation with the constant rejection. At this point, she's in control of whether or not to reconnect. You can leave the door open for communication if she chooses but at this point, self soothing for your feelings and keeping occupied seems to be what Gottman recommends.

[Woodchuck]

Notwendy,
Thank you for the input.  You are probably correct, as difficult as it is in many ways to accept.  It is really difficult me to just let go, especially living under the same roof.  I think I am getting to the point of being able to let go and I think that is in part why I am asking the question.  If she decides tomorrow or next week or next month to initiate sex, then what?  I don't want to be pulled back in to the tumultuous 'dance' but at the same time, I don't want to reject her as I know how painful it is to be rejected.  I wish the answers were easier and more clear cut.  Thank you so much for the support!

WC

[formflier]

I think what Notwendy is suggesting is "just do it" when your wife approaches you.  I realize that leaves lots of stuff unresolved, but hopefully the "temperature" gets turned down a little bit.


After a while of improving communication skills and consistency on your part, she may be able to have a more serious discussion about this.

The person that wants it less, really controls the sexual relationship.  Most pwBPD want control, so... perhaps she has figured that out as a way to maintain control.  Or perhaps she really doesn't want it or "feel worthy" of it at the time.

FF

[Woodchuck]

I think what Notwendy is suggesting is "just do it" when your wife approaches you.  I realize that leaves lots of stuff unresolved, but hopefully the "temperature" gets turned down a little bit.


After a while of improving communication skills and consistency on your part, she may be able to have a more serious discussion about this.

The person that wants it less, really controls the sexual relationship.  Most pwBPD want control, so... perhaps she has figured that out as a way to maintain control.  Or perhaps she really doesn't want it or "feel worthy" of it at the time.

FF

FF-
I believe that it is all or almost all about control.  Which is fine, it is not something I can change.  I don't think it has anything to do with her feeling worthy.  She has stated in the past that she could care less if she ever has sex again.  Has she actually followed through on that?  Of course not.  I have decided not to approach her about it due to it being a control thing.  In a sense she will be getting her need of control met at the expense of me being rejected.  As much as I would rather just not care and just try to initiate sex, that is not who I am.  I can change a lot of things but I don't know that I can change that part of, if that makes sense.

WC

[Notwendy]

You may be a tender hearted guy but believe it or not, behind that " I don't need you". "I don't care about sex" is someone more sensitive than you are hiding under this wall of control.

I think initiating sex and being turned down can be very hurtful. It is tough for me. What I didn't realize is that even as tough as it was for me, it was way more hurtful to my H. One turn down ( for something not having anything to do with him) could result in the ST and him rejecting me as payback. Then you end up with two hurt people and that doesn't go well.

I think of myself as being very sensitive but to survive these dynamics, I had to get tougher. Not mean tough but learn to let things that are said in the moment roll off my back. This is not like my personality but for me to stay emotionally calm when things got crazy and not react with hurt truly helped me to be more vulnerable in the relationship and not keep as much of a guard up. It's a work in progress and of course you don't put yourself out there to get stomped on but it helps with the fear. My H has said some pretty awful things to me in the moment about our sex life and it takes a lot to get over it. I admit I am not there yet, but I also learned that some of is was just word vomit.

I don't think you should pursue her like a puppy- that would feel demeaning. So just go about your day and let her be, but if she initiates, consider that a turn down could feel devastating to her, even if she doesn't admit it.

[Woodchuck]

You may be a tender hearted guy but believe it or not, behind that " I don't need you". "I don't care about sex" is someone more sensitive than you are hiding under this wall of control.

I actually do see that and honestly that is what really hurts is I see her hurting and unable/unwilling to face with and process that hurt.  It tears me up inside to see her so unhappy and in denial about how unhappy she is.

I think initiating sex and being turned down can be very hurtful. It is tough for me. What I didn't realize is that even as tough as it was for me, it was way more hurtful to my H. One turn down ( for something not having anything to do with him) could result in the ST and him rejecting me as payback. Then you end up with two hurt people and that doesn't go well.

I think of myself as being very sensitive but to survive these dynamics, I had to get tougher. Not mean tough but learn to let things that are said in the moment roll off my back. This is not like my personality but for me to stay emotionally calm when things got crazy and not react with hurt truly helped me to be more vulnerable in the relationship and not keep as much of a guard up. It's a work in progress and of course you don't put yourself out there to get stomped on but it helps with the fear. My H has said some pretty awful things to me in the moment about our sex life and it takes a lot to get over it. I admit I am not there yet, but I also learned that some of is was just word vomit.

I don't want to get 'mean tougher' and that is really why I am asking the questions.  Someone today told me that I should take on the 'eye for an eye' mentality but I just cannot justify that in my mind.  All that does is escalate things.  But then at the same time, with this particular issue, I don't know what is most healthy.  I don't want to say 'no' because I know how painful it is when I hear 'no' but at the same time, I don't want to feel used and confused. 

Thank you for the input from a female perspective.  It is helpful to see how things are viewed from a different angle!

WC

[pearlsw]

Hi Woodchuck,

This is tough! I remember a few years ago, before I realized definitively that my SO had mental health problems things were becoming pretty strained between us in terms of intimacy. He was so demanding and pushy about sex and it was so much pressure. I was never with a man that complained about sex or didn't think he was getting enough! Argh!

I realized that for him sex was a "repair", but it was not easy to want to do it because he was turning me off so much with his horrible behavior and words. I knew though that if that part of the relationship broke down it'd be even worse.

So, although it's tough... .sometimes it is good to move towards our "resistances" instead of turning away from them. Try to remember she is someone with some broken tools and, the good news, you can shift the dynamic. It takes time, but when this happened years ago I managed to change what was a pretty horrible dynamic by being consistent, being the emotional leader, and sometimes just the bigger person until a better dynamic was restored.

wishing you peace, pearl.

[Woodchuck]

Hi Woodchuck,

This is tough! I remember a few years ago, before I realized definitively that my SO had mental health problems things were becoming pretty strained between us in terms of intimacy. He was so demanding and pushy about sex and it was so much pressure. I was never with a man that complained about sex or didn't think he was getting enough! Argh!

I realized that for him sex was a "repair", but it was not easy to want to do it because he was turning me off so much with his horrible behavior and words. I knew though that if that part of the relationship broke down it'd be even worse.

So, although it's tough... .sometimes it is good to move towards our "resistances" instead of turning away from them. Try to remember she is someone with some broken tools and, the good news, you can shift the dynamic. It takes time, but when this happened years ago I managed to change what was a pretty horrible dynamic by being consistent, being the emotional leader, and sometimes just the bigger person until a better dynamic was restored.

wishing you peace, pearl.

Thank you Pearl!  I do recognize that she has some broken tools and having that realization does help.  I am working on shifting and becoming the emotional leader instead of the enabler and 'people pleaser'.  Hopefully things will change for the better as time passes!

WC

[Notwendy]

That's a good shift.

There's a book that I have mentioned several times on this board and also I think it has been reviewed in the threads. It isn't about BPD but it is about enmeshement in marriage and how that affects intimacy.

It's called "Passionate Marriage" and yes, it has some steamy contents. IMHO, I actually found that a bit distracting from the valuable information about the dynamics in relationships, but the content about enmeshment, confidence, and other factors that play out in intimacy is good. Dysfunction affects all aspects of relationships and this one takes on the area of intimacy.

[Cat Familiar]

Intimacy with a pwBPD is... .well... .fraught. I think it's difficult enough to sustain an intimate relationship with a non partner over the years, but I'm speaking without having any real life experience in that department.

What I do know from experience is how difficult it is to speak about intimacy issues with a BPD partner where the conversation doesn't go off the rails.

So much about BPD is connected to fragile self image, and what arena is more tenuous than sexual intimacy?

I think in the beginning of relationships when little is known about each other, that pwBPD can play the role of a confident sexual partner. Then when they become aware that we see the secrets that they've hoped to keep hidden behind the facade, that level of intimacy and openness feels more vulnerable to them and they can either pull away or solidify the mask they hide behind.

I've seen both sides with my husbands. #1 did the latter--he identified as being hyper sexual, but at the same time, closed off his emotional intimacy.

#2 has pulled away in fear of me. He's told me that he's "afraid" of me. To me that seems absurd on the face of it. In my opinion, I'm such a non-threatening, mild mannered woman who is 80 pounds lighter than him. How could I possibly be intimidating? Perhaps it's because I say what I think and I tend to be straightforward and no nonsense.

Though he's highly intelligent, he seems to be blown with the wind and sometimes seems unmoored and directionless. Lately, after being gifted with fancy cigars and a humidor from an old friend, he's gotten into buying Cuban cigars online and yesterday a giant humidor was delivered by UPS. He was never a smoker before, but now he's reading a book on cigars. I suspect it's just another passing fantasy like so many others I've seen him be obsessed with in the past.

This seems to be yet another example of how pwBPD often don't have a strong identity and can easily be influenced by others. And that he knows I observe these things, I'm sure, is quite threatening to his ego.

(I don't know if my tangental thinking has relevance to your issue, Woodchuck, but my overarching point is that sometimes sex is about way more than just sex.)