Paranoia as a symptom of BPD?

[jsgirl360]

What would happenn if you asked him to take you there again.  He agrees and you directly but succinctly say that you didn't enjoy the last time, but it  would mean a lot to you if you could have a respectful conversation over dinner.

pause... .

What do you think he would say?

This is my first attempt at quoting so hopefully this works... .

I think his response would be dysregulation. Well  "$#@% you" if you didn't enjoy the last time, maybe you should find someone else to take you."  A huge part of his BPD is he can't deal with criticism or perceived criticism at all, even if it's presented in a gentle,  tactful manner.

However,  if criticism was presented by an acquaintance or extended family member,  I believe he would still have the negative thought process but not the "explosive " outward reaction.  I definitely feel due to the close relationship,  I am a trigger for him.

[jsgirl360]

Why tolerate another day?

Seriously.

Pick a clear example/thing that is really bugging you.  Next time he does it, give him a choice... .he can have your presence or he can have (fill in the blank).  Let him know you will abide by his choice either way.

Stay very neutral when you say this...

What would you predict will happen?

Finally got this quoting thing down ;)

If I did the extreme and asked him to choose between acting like a respectable husband and leaving... .or me and the kids leaving for any amount of time... .he would leave. Asking him not to dysregulate is like asking him not to breathe or eat, it's so much a part of him.

Something that really bugs me is... .swearing at me and cussing me out. If I were to say, "this behavior needs to stop or one of us needs to go", I believe he would be out the door. Our relationship is very conditional and fragile. At one point last winter, he was about to pack his stuff because I said "any day except for Saturday" in regards to a day he wanted us to go out to dinner with one of his coworkers.  (That Saturday I had planned a surprise birthday dinner for him with his other coworkers... .which is why I said any day except that one.) The dysregulation was so bad it practically ruined everything. He repeatedly called me an @sshole (his favorite thing to call me)

The next question obviously would be... .why don't I just let him leave?  He mostly just spews negativity.  He doesn't contribute much to the household financially.  My answer is that I don't want to cause the kids any further drama or trauma. People have told me that in the long run a separation would be better for them. It just pains me to imagine the hurt on their faces. I've put it in God's hands. I feel like this situation isn't His final plan for my life.

[Red5]

Good morning jsgirls360, only have a moment and I am typing on my cell with my “coke bottles” on so I can see ... .

I've put it in God's hands. I feel like this situation isn't His final plan for my life.

Sometimes, considering my first marraige and now this one (long long story)... .and all the other things that have happened in my life... .I think ... .that I am on a mission for God, to quote the “Blues Brothers” LoL ,

Anyways, please keep posting and as I am now overdue after dropping S31(autistic) off at his day program, and step D33 and her husband are visiting, and today I/BPDw has a doc appointment this morning, after her last episode of tremors the evening before she went on her backyard rampage... .geez ;(

I’d better get back home now, sitting in Church parking lot typing this,

Have to say I held my boundary with her yesterday morning but it has Ben costly, almost as much as I had to pay the honey truck man after he had to come and help me fix the septic lines that got crushed by the track how that came into the back yard to pick off the huge limb for me, .ou’boy!

I need a vacation !

Take care now! Red5

[Cat Familiar]

Hi jsgirl360,
As a child of a BPD mother, I'm not sure the idea of keeping a dysfunctional marriage together for the sake of the kids is a sound concept. If your husband regularly rages at you and the children, what are they learning about marriage? And what are they learning about the role of a man in the relationship?

I learned to be very contemptuous and mistrusting of women from watching how my mother behaved. It took me a long time to repair those feelings--and some big bucks spent in counseling, grad school and seminars.

My mother often spoke about divorce. Of course that was frightening to me as a child. But now I wonder how my life might have been different had she pulled the trigger and I would have had a safe refuge with my father at times.

They ended up staying together until my father's death. By that time, he was a broken shell of a man from all those years of dealing with her.

I would never encourage anyone to divorce, but I'm not sure that staying in a toxic marriage is better for the children. Just saying... .

Cat

[Enabler]

What if divorce meant the kids spending more time with uBPDw and less time with me (hopefully not crackers). Logistics don't allow me to be primary carer.

[formflier]

 My answer is that I don't want to cause the kids any further drama or trauma.  

I think you understood leaving to me "leave the relationship"

Boundaries... .he controls his mouth... .you control your ears.

If his mouth is unpleasant (which is 100% his choice) and if what you are hearing from his is unpleasant to you... .the YOU are 100% responsible for what you allow into your ears... after all, who controls them?

So, he blathers... .you say "We can't spend time together while "threats" (or another appropriate word) are between us"  Then YOU leave the room.

Most likely first couple times it's best if you leave.  After he understands you are serious... then give him choice.

Very important to stay neutral.

Now... .take my statement for a minute.  Did you accuse him of anything?  Can he think about this statement and figure out how to spend time with you, if he wants that?  Is this an individual thing... or are you talking about togetherness as a couple?

How does that wording strike you?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

There's never any easy answers regarding kids and divorce. My dad made the effort of taking me and my friends to various events: amusement parks, museums, the beach, tickets that I'd gotten to watch television shows be filmed. It was easy, no stress being around him--very different than being around my mother, who constantly created chaos in her wake.

It's impossible for me to say how it would have been should I have spent more time in my mother's presence, but it was truly a gift to be around my dad and have a sense of normalcy.

[Red5]

It's impossible for me to say how it would have been should I have spent more time in my mother's presence, but it was truly a gift to be around my dad and have a sense of normalcy.

I stayed ina completely dysfunctional and broken marriage way past the due date... .almost twenty-two years for my three kids... .then she left, and let me have the kids to finish raising... .  by then early teens... .I was a single Dad for five years until I remarried u/BPDw #2,

Lots to be said for sticking it out, bogus sides of the coin,

I could not leave my children with stbx #1, far to risky.

But this was my situation, a very long story.

My kids faired much better since I stuck that one out, God took care of us.

Red5 

[Red5]

It's funny... .the other day... regarding a trip to the zoo... I made a comment that I was not going to bring my mother because "if she happens to decide she doesn't want to be somewhere,  she has to ruin it for everyone else." BPDh actually admitted "I do the same thing" and repeated it several times in the conversation.  That proves to me that he has awareness of his behavior.

Here quite a while back, after a big dysregulation... .fight and shouting match... .then the recycle... .u/BPDw says to me, now get this!... .she comes out with “ you handled me well” ?/!

That floored me, I showed no outward emotion, but inside I was like... .“what in the world”!... .

... .“you handled me well”... .

Ok, that was ______ ?

I swear!, I think a pretty good percentage of the time, u/BPDw is completely aware of what’s she’s doing... .and that pissses me off !

Who does this ?

Red5

[formflier]

I occasionally get comments like that from my wife.  That I "did ok" or "was strong".  (not the normal... but not unheard of either)

Really odd.

My guess is it was like being on a runaway train or something like that as her emotions went off to the races.

FF

[jsgirl360]

It's been a busy, busy work week! There are several messages on this thread I'll be responding to shortly... .

Last Saturday,  I worked a 16 hour shift.  The kids went to a babysitter.  Between picking up the kids from the babysitter and me arriving home from work, husband had to watch the kids for about an hour. Kids are always a trigger for him, so by the time I got home, tired,  he was completely dysregulated.  Barely staying awake,  I was dealing with the swearing,  yelling,  insults... .

It gets better... .and this ties to the paranoia topic of this thread. My mother (who lives upstairs from us), had a church friend visit. This woman is a 75-year-old, widow of a pastor.  Very Pentecostal if you know what I mean.  

I mentioned before that BPDh has paranoid ideation that others don't like him.  When this elderly lady arrived to the house, she interacted mostly with me as she doesn't know my husband well. (I mentioned in past posts that husband identifies as an atheist and mostly stays away from church.) Well, BPDh took great offense to this and began cussing and raised his middle finger in the unsuspecting woman's direction.  Later I tried to reason with husband that the woman doesn't know him well and that is why she didn't speak much to him. Also, old-school Pentecostal women often won't socialize much with men who aren't their husbands.  It was to no avail. He felt persecuted by this woman.

I believe his being out of work is making his behavior worse. Which brings me to the next big event of the week. His car needs to be fixed (it's presently at the garage), and it turns out the work needed will cost around $1000. He doesn't have any money saved. Even though he doesn't contribute to household expenses,  he spends his paychecks pretty quickly... .between his older son... .gambling... .and I don't know what else.  I am going to try to use this situation to convince him to go back to work.  Normally,  since I make more than double his salary,  I would just offer to pay for the car.  But this time,  I haven't.  He's expressed concern over how much it costs. I've affirmed what he says, but I have not offered to pay. I'm hoping that the financial needs will push him to go back... .I'm not trying to be selfish or unkind, I just need my respite.

Physically he's healed from his surgery.  However he has hinted that during his next doctor's visit, he's going to present as infirm in order to get more time off from work. If he does do this, we will having a conversation about his oldest son. About a year ago, BPDh was having a particularly tough time functioning at work, regulating his moods around his coworkers.  At the time, I told him if he was to stop working, I could support both of us with my salary.  However, I will not support his grown sons. BPDh was not happy to hear this, but it caused him to continue working.  I believe he has enough accrued time to last him to the end of 2018. After this, he would have no income. I'm hoping that his finances will convince him to return to work. I realize it's a lot more difficult for someone with BPD to function in a workplace than for a non... .but I still believe working has a positive effect on him.  

Last event of the week I wanted to mention.  Since BPDh has been out of work, he's trying to micromanage everything in the house. He opposes everything I say, especially with regards to taking care of the kids. He even tried to demand the kids stand under a tree during a lightening storm because I said not to (Yes, this really happened!) He doesn't even leave the house for more than a few minutes... .I believe he's worried he'll miss a chance to dysregulate...

Anyhow, my elderly aunt suggested she come over on Labor Day, and we (my mom, husband,  kids, and I) can have pizza and cake. Husband quickly tried to hijack the event, saying he didn't want pizza (although everyone else agreed to it.) Instead, he wants Ribeye steak, cooked on a grill. But we don't have a grill. I bought him a nice grill a few years back, but he left it outside all winter and it rotted. He seemed to expect me to go out and buy another, but I didn't offer. I thought he was going into full BPD freak-out mode over wanting the Ribeye, but thankfully he didn't (yet).

[formflier]

Hey jsgirl360


Your instincts about "what to do" seem to be really good (not paying, not buying another grill... etc etc)... .I hope to get you to think a bit more deeply about "why" you are doing those things... .or "what you hope to accomplish" (get him to do)


Your thought about not supporting him financially is sound.  I would not "split the hairs" about supporting him and not supporting his adult kid.  In fact, by mentioning it... you could be "validating the invalid".  Is discussing supporting someone that should support themselves really a topic worthy of your time?

Just say no... move on... let him connect the dots  I would express confidence that he can work through it and assure him you will "give him the space" to do it. (this must be said in friendly way... .or skip it)

If you are going to support him not working in the household, I would tie it to household chores or other things of value.  Should he choose not to do these... .don't support him.  And don't be shocked.  Certainly don't leave the chores to him that "really matter".

What I want you to avoid is him sitting on the couch, having food brought to him... being demanding and all that.

OK... .let me deal with your goals a bit.  They aren't bad ones ("so he will return to work").  

To me... that's a bit micromanaging.  Let him connect the dots.  Think of it as a child that is maturing and understanding the natural consequences of their actions.

Perhaps

He will get his children to support him.

He will start a modeling career.

Get an advance on that book he is wanting to write.

Go back to same job.

Get another job


Your stance on all of those is... ."if they work... great"  

If it ever comes down to this, we could certainly get into details.  drama triangle matters.  You don't want to rescue or persecute.  And you certainly don't want to stick around to be the victim.

Much of that can be avoiding with "proper delivery", which we can help with.

FF

[jsgirl360]

Hi jsgirl360,
As a child of a BPD mother, I'm not sure the idea of keeping a dysfunctional marriage together for the sake of the kids is a sound concept. If your husband regularly rages at you and the children, what are they learning about marriage? And what are they learning about the role of a man in the relationship?

I learned to be very contemptuous and mistrusting of women from watching how my mother behaved. It took me a long time to repair those feelings--and some big bucks spent in counseling, grad school and seminars.

My mother often spoke about divorce. Of course that was frightening to me as a child. But now I wonder how my life might have been different had she pulled the trigger and I would have had a safe refuge with my father at times.

They ended up staying together until my father's death. By that time, he was a broken shell of a man from all those years of dealing with her.

I would never encourage anyone to divorce, but I'm not sure that staying in a toxic marriage is better for the children. Just saying... .

Cat

Hi Cat.  Thank you for your reply. Sorry for the delayed response.  I know all too well what it's like to grow up with a BPD parent. My father was surely uBPD, along with several other mental illnesses with which he was diagnosed. As you can imagine,  things were quite dysfunctional in my house. I came to believe this kind of life was normal,  and I suspect the behavioral patterns I saw as a child affected my choice to marry a man with BPD.  Actually I have no doubt they did. If left to my own whims,  I notice that I naturally gravitate towards men who are mentally ill, specifically the Axis II personality disorders.  I have to consciously and intentionally guide myself to choose friendships with healthy people.

I would hate to see my kids to end up in the same circumstances as me. I hope to do my best to guide them away from unhealthy people.

I'm not against divorce.  I've thought about the drama and trauma it would cause my kids. I've wondered if the drama and trauma of staying is worse. BPDh has spoken of divorce since our honeymoon.  I know BPD's are known to be impulsive.  I'm waiting for the day he will meet his new "feed" and not come home. Wishful thinking? I'm not sure.

I will respond to more messages on this thread later tonight!

[jsgirl360]

I think you understood leaving to me "leave the relationship"

Boundaries... .he controls his mouth... .you control your ears.

If his mouth is unpleasant (which is 100% his choice) and if what you are hearing from his is unpleasant to you... .the YOU are 100% responsible for what you allow into your ears... after all, who controls them?

So, he blathers... .you say "We can't spend time together while "threats" (or another appropriate word) are between us"  Then YOU leave the room.

Most likely first couple times it's best if you leave.  After he understands you are serious... then give him choice.

Very important to stay neutral.

Now... .take my statement for a minute.  Did you accuse him of anything?  Can he think about this statement and figure out how to spend time with you, if he wants that?  Is this an individual thing... or are you talking about togetherness as a couple?

How does that wording strike you?

FF

I meant to respond sooner. It's been a long week with no free time. Now I finally have some time to kind of relax... .at work of all places.

Lately I have been leaving the room... ."taking myself out of the equation" and controlling my ears... .when the yelling and cussing starts.  Usually I will not say anything when I leave, I just walk outside or into another room and sit down.

The reason I don't say anything when I leave is any statement about his behavior can be a trigger and add more fuel to the fire.

I notice the kids are following suit and BPDh ends up sitting alone in the living room. He will then make a comment to the likes of "Guess I scared everybody away".  You think?

So it's safe to say he realizes the cause and effect of his behavior.  The big question is... .does he care? Based on his comment, he seems to be a little rattled by the results (being left all alone), but not concerned enough to change his behavior.

[jsgirl360]

Hey jsgirl360


Your instincts about "what to do" seem to be really good (not paying, not buying another grill... etc etc)... .I hope to get you to think a bit more deeply about "why" you are doing those things... .or "what you hope to accomplish" (get him to do)


Your thought about not supporting him financially is sound.  I would not "split the hairs" about supporting him and not supporting his adult kid.  In fact, by mentioning it... you could be "validating the invalid".  Is discussing supporting someone that should support themselves really a topic worthy of your time?

Just say no... move on... let him connect the dots  I would express confidence that he can work through it and assure him you will "give him the space" to do it. (this must be said in friendly way... .or skip it)

If you are going to support him not working in the household, I would tie it to household chores or other things of value.  Should he choose not to do these... .don't support him.  And don't be shocked.  Certainly don't leave the chores to him that "really matter".

What I want you to avoid is him sitting on the couch, having food brought to him... being demanding and all that.

OK... .let me deal with your goals a bit.  They aren't bad ones ("so he will return to work").  

To me... that's a bit micromanaging.  Let him connect the dots.  Think of it as a child that is maturing and understanding the natural consequences of their actions.

Perhaps

He will get his children to support him.

He will start a modeling career.

Get an advance on that book he is wanting to write.

Go back to same job.

Get another job


Your stance on all of those is... ."if they work... great"  

If it ever comes down to this, we could certainly get into details.  drama triangle matters.  You don't want to rescue or persecute.  And you certainly don't want to stick around to be the victim.

Much of that can be avoiding with "proper delivery", which we can help with.

FF

Hi FF... .I hope you're having a good weekend...

The reason I'm not offering to pay for the car repairs is, I suppose, somewhat selfish on my part: I want him to feel the need to return to work. I need a break for my own mental health. Having him home all the time is draining.

My reasoning for not buying a new grill, while not as big of an expense,  is just the fact that I'm not willing to spend money if he's not willing to care for his possessions. Later on, I will post about his difficulties with managing money... .it's enough to start a new thread over. I don't expect him to suddenly learn money management skills or responsibility out of this situation.  I just want him to feel that he needs to continue earning an income. I'm desperate for a break. If this is what I have to do, I'll do it (decline to give him money).

There is one reason for bringing his 34-year-old son into the discussion. When husband wanted to stop working altogether about a year ago, his "desire" to support his son is what stopped him from quitting. BPDh would be alright with staying at home all day, being supported off my income.  He would spend his days on the internet and playing apps. I understand going to work is more stressful for him than to a neurotypical person. I'm also starting to suspect some social anxiety (he will go more than a week without leaving the house.)  However, I've noticed time after time that going to work also helps him to regulate his mood... .

So at the time he wanted to quit, I told him that while I can support him, I won't support either of his adult sons financially.  He made a comment to the likes of "I guess I'll just work until I'm 90" and didn't mention quitting again. Presently he is supporting just his oldest son, who has BPD and isn't working. While he doesn't have to support his son, he feels the need to in order to save his own face. His son has no problem with dodging the rent, having gas and electric turned off and basically living in squalor.  This is an embarrassment to BPDh, so he continues to shower the son with money. I feel that the threat of his adult son not being financially supported is practically the only reason that keeps BPDh working. That's why I feel the need to pull out that card when necessary.

So far, he hasn't brought up the car subject this weekend.  I know he's reeling about it and it will possibly lead to a dysregulation.  On Friday,  he did come up with potential solutions for car such as "if the repairs cost too much I'll take out a loan and buy a used car". I continued to affirm his suggestions but did not offer money.

By the way... I enjoyed your suggestion of him starting a modeling career... .although it is much more likely than getting his children to support him ;)

Wishing you a relaxing Sunday... .

[formflier]

You have good, logical, rational reasons for doing what you do.  The point of my post was that your reasons for what you want him to feel and experience are way to specific.  Waaaaaayyyyy to specific.

Remember... .rational mind versus emotional mind.

He likely thought "my wife hates my adult kids and she is making me work until I am 90... .and she won't let my hippopotamus play in the pool anymore"... .(insert grinding noises of BPDish brain "thinking")... ."well, I better keep working... .at least she lets me park my car next to the broom she flies around on... .as unreasonable as she is I guess I should be happy for that".


Now... .you being a rational person realize that you shot and mounted the hippo on your husbands den wall and you better explain that to him again... .he now has a unicorn in the back yard.  And (steam rising from your ears)... ."I  don't ride a broom... .that's what your (insert unsavory female) does... .yes... the one with a wart on her nose"  sigh... ."I park my carpet next to your car... .I ride on a flying carpet with my genie lamp."

And you walk away horked off about the wart thing... .I mean... really... a wart.

Now... .after attending bpdfamily's communications with a BPDish person school you know that he can believe what he wants... .the details don't matter, he connected his own dots... and he is working.

He solved his own issue and you gave him space to solve it.

Thoughts?  Do you see the "point"?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I don't think there's anything selfish about wanting him to return to work now that he's able to do so. Self-protective, yes. Selfish, no. If he just lays around the house and grouses and puts you and the kids on edge, it would certainly be better for all concerned that he return to working.  Having to show up at a job will get him more focused upon controlling his emotional outbursts, at least at work, and it probably will carry over to home to some extent.