One marital affair winding down, am I about to start another?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

So my ex and I are at detente. We are still in contact but not talking. There is no animosity and I have decided to move on by expanding my friendships with other women. Who am I kidding? Another woman.

There is a woman in AA who has gravitated towards me and I have allowed a friendship to blossom with her. She is due to go into hospital on Thursday for an operation and I have been spending time going out to the cinema and enjoying time with her. She knows I'm married and no doubt feels safe in my company since I have behaved like a perfect gentleman.

The trouble is that my wife and I are not intimate and I am very attracted to this woman. She knows that I am but I have kept everything light and friendly. She is no doubt enjoying the attention and I am enjoying the female company. She keeps asking me if I want to go out to gigs and other outings but tonight I told her that I can't as my wife wouldn't like me spending so much time with another woman.

This facilitated a long discussion about my marriage and my r/s with my wife with her urging me to simply take the step to sleep with her. She couldn't believe that I have gone 8 years without sex with my wife. She said she could never do that as 'sex is important to her.' I wanted to scream out that it's important to me too!

So here I am once again at the same crossroads as before. My wife has come home from her trip abroad. We were very pleased to see each other and had a cuddle on the sofa and then went to our separate rooms.

I am feeling, happy, sad, suicidal, happy, sad, suicidal in a constantly fluctuating emotional landscape. I can't countenance the rest of my life without sex and intimacy and yet leaving my wife would be extremely painful. I have started lusting after this AA woman who in all honesty I don't think fancies me but just wants the attention. After we had the discussion today she said, 'Are you going to abandon me?' RED FLAG. Have I attracted another BPD traits person? She is lovely, warm and kind but also aloof and distant if she senses too much closeness (I don't think it's just about discouraging me either). We have discussed poetry and art and theatre etc. Similar interests but I can recognise the traits and I am sensing she may have them.

My life feels a mess emotionally. I am intensely frustrated and sad but feeling a stability I've rarely had in my life too. I don't think my wife and I can ever rekindle our sex life and I'm not sure I want to. I think I may need to summon up the courage to leave to stand a chance of meeting somebody I actually want to sleep with... but turning my back on my wife would be very painful for both of us.

I am actually slightly annoyed at the AA woman deep down (not that I've let it show at all) as I feel like she is behaving a little like my ex. Enjoying my company and pulling away. In this case I think she simply wants a friendship to cope with the early days of not drinking. I shouldn't even be fraternising with her as I am long term sober and she is a newcomer to AA (not to mention I'm totally raw after the trauma of detaching from my ex) but I was drawn to her openness = unboundaried = my emotional equal = another impending disaster. Note to self: STAY AWAY!

[RomanticFool]

So my ex and I are at detente. We are still in contact but not talking. There is no animosity and I have decided to move on by expanding my friendships with other women. Who am I kidding? Another woman.

There is a woman in AA who has gravitated towards me and I have allowed a friendship to blossom with her. She is due to go into hospital on Thursday for an operation and I have been spending time going out to the cinema and enjoying time with her. She knows I'm married and no doubt feels safe in my company since I have behaved like a perfect gentleman.

The trouble is that my wife and I are not intimate and I am very attracted to this woman. She knows that I am but I have kept everything light and friendly. She is no doubt enjoying the attention and I am enjoying the female company. She keeps asking me if I want to go out to gigs and other outings but tonight I told her that I can't as my wife wouldn't like me spending so much time with another woman.

This facilitated a long discussion about my marriage and my r/s with my wife with her urging me to simply take the step to sleep with her. She couldn't believe that I have gone 8 years without sex with my wife. She said she could never do that as 'sex is important to her.' I wanted to scream out that it's important to me too!

So here I am once again at the same crossroads as before. My wife has come home from her trip abroad. We were very pleased to see each other and had a cuddle on the sofa and then went to our separate rooms.

I am feeling, happy, sad, suicidal, happy, sad, suicidal in a constantly fluctuating emotional landscape. I can't countenance the rest of my life without sex and intimacy and yet leaving my wife would be extremely painful. I have started lusting after this AA woman who in all honesty I don't think fancies me but just wants the attention. After we had the discussion today she said, 'Are you going to abandon me?' RED FLAG. Have I attracted another BPD traits person? She is lovely, warm and kind but also aloof and distant if she senses too much closeness (I don't think it's just about discouraging me either). We have discussed poetry and art and theatre etc. Similar interests but I can recognise the traits and I am sensing she may have them.

My life feels a mess emotionally. I am intensely frustrated and sad but feeling a stability I've rarely had in my life too. I don't think my wife and I can ever rekindle our sex life and I'm not sure I want to. I think I may need to summon up the courage to leave to stand a chance of meeting somebody I actually want to sleep with... but turning my back on my wife would be very painful for both of us.

I am actually slightly annoyed at the AA woman deep down (not that I've let it show at all) as I feel like she is behaving a little like my ex. Enjoying my company and pulling away. In this case I think she simply wants a friendship to cope with the early days of not drinking. I shouldn't even be fraternising with her as I am long term sober and she is a newcomer to AA (not to mention I'm totally raw after the trauma of detaching from my ex) but I was drawn to her openness = unboundaried = my emotional equal = another impending disaster. Note to self: STAY AWAY!

[BeagleGirl]

RomanticFool,
I can relate to some of the emotional turmoil you feel.  I know what it is to know that what you want/need from your spouse will probably never be granted yet feel that leaving them is impossible because it goes against your core values and/or would be more painful than you or they could handle.  And then here is someone who is willing to give you what you feel is missing and you know it's not the right thing to do, but is it really so very wrong?

As you probably remember, I walked down that road once.  I have sworn I will never do it again, because I know the pain it caused me, my affair partner, and our respective families.  Even if I had kept the affair a secret for the rest of my life, it caused so much pain for me that I wasn't sure I'd survive it.

I've also gone through the process of leaving my husband.  It HAS caused incredible pain.  Not just for me, but for my husband and our children, friends, and family.  It's not a course of action that I would ever advise if it could be avoided.

So you are faced with a choice that may seem simple to outsiders looking in, but I remember how impossible it felt.  As I see it, you have several options.  If there are others to explore, please add to the list:

1.  Have a clandestine affair with AA woman, remain married.
2.  Have a clandestine affair with AA woman, work towards leaving your wife.
3.  Go NC with AA woman, remain married and either work towards a "whole" relationship with her or radically accept you won't have those needs met by anyone.
4.  Go NC with AA woman, work towards leaving your wife so you are open for "whole" relationships.
5.  Continue "friendship" with AA woman, remain married.  I think this option has an expiration date that has probably passed since you have both expressed interest in something more.

So when you read through those options, how do they feel? 

It sounds like you have two areas to consider; the immediate opportunity for a relationship with AA woman and whether that is wise and the question of whether you can continue in a marriage that will likely never fulfill your needs and continually leave you susceptible to affairs.  Would you agree?

BG

[Zen606]

Hi Romantic Fool,
You are in a difficult situation and I definitely empathize, I was in a similar situation about a year ago. What helped me was to seek psychotherapy because I realized that I needed assistance, I could not do it by myself, it was too painful  and I was too confused, and frankly I was tired of going around in circles. Nine months later the place where I am is totally different,  I feel like I have a better understanding of where my life is going. The bp trait ex was out of my life a month after I began therapy and the relationship I had before the bp trait ex -- the relationship that I went back to -- is unraveling. All a natural consequence of addressing unprocessed issues of childhood in psychotherapy.  I was lucky enough to find a therapist that is doing deep work with me, this has made all the difference. Are you in therapy?
Zen606

[RomanticFool]

Hi Beagle Girl,

I do remember your story and thank you once again for sharing your experience with me, it really helps.

Just to clarify, the AA woman has not expressed any interest in a r/s with me and her ‘are you abandoning me?’ statement was made sort of in jest but it is clear she needs a ‘recovery buddy.’ I told her straight that I was attracted to her and also said that my wife wouldn’t like me spending so much time with another woman. I usually am honest with people these days to avoid misunderstandings and I suspect we will see less of each other in the coming weeks and months. I don’t really want a friendship with a woman that I am attracted to in this way as I find it intensely frustrating and all the flirting and closeness sends mixed messages to my brain and my own history has illustrated that I find this situation difficult. I have no intention of embarking on another affair. I thought spending time in female company would help me to deal with my detachment from the ex but I find I am beginning to swap my affections from one to the other.

My only choice really is to either make my r/s with my wife work or walk away. My old behaviour is a recipe for misery and any woman in her right mind, unless she had BPD or BPD traits would steer clear of a married man, especially one who has been married herself like the AA woman. In fact for me a further red flag with her was that she left her husband, when her child was young, and she says she doesn’t really know why she left other than it wasn’t working for her anymore. In the next breath she talks about him as the love of her life... .but doesn’t regret walking away as hard as that has been.  Even if I was single and actively looking for a r/s, that history and explanation would give serious doubts about her reliability. I like this woman, she is different from my ex but I can feel her treading water with me in the early stages of recovery and it is affecting my emotional life in a negative way. I feel I just try to distance myself before I get hurt/entangled again.

[RomanticFool]

Zen606,

I think now would be a good time to go into therapy. I have detached from my ex now and haven’t seen her for 19 months. We no longer talk though we are still connected through social media. If she cuts me off again I will make no attempt to reconnect.

Interestingly, the AA woman had an instinctive understanding of my feelings regarding my ex. She said you met a virtual ‘porn model’ and it has ruined you with other women for life. Not quite accurate but it does put into stark focus the nature of my attraction and since the new woman is being so unboundaried herself (though this only extends to arm touching and totally on her terms) I figure she has some insight into the situation I now find myself in. I also find that any woman who has natural  empathy with my situation may well suffer from the same off kilter mindset that I do. It is far better for me to be around healthy, boundaried women who I am not attracted to. It is simply less painful.

I intend to discuss this in therapy.

[RomanticFool]

The new object of my affections went into hospital today and I sent her a message saying I was thinking of her. I got a ‘thank you’ back but no further response when I enquired how she is feeling.

Health is playing a large part in my world today.

I also had to take my father to hospital today and he has something called MGUS which has a 1% chance of turning into myeloma, a form of blood cancer.

I don’t know if I was hoping she would remember and ask after my dad. Too much to expect for somebody who has just had an operation. However, I think declaring my affections has probably scared her off and she will no doubt find another ‘recovery buddy’ as attractive people have a tendency to do.

Meanwhile my wife fell over and cut her head open a week ago while trying to ascend a mountain. She is ok but has had 6 stitches in a nasty looking head wound and went for a CT scan on her head today as she was feeling dizzy. Thankfully she is fine and it is just a little bit of concussion. I have been looking after her.

However, my mind is in turmoil. I have been thinking a little of my ex today and a lot about the new woman. I am going through my life and putting myself in situations that are making me miserable. I crave intimacy and affection with the new woman. Why can’t I feel it for my wife who loves me? Perhaps because I know she doesn’t have the passion in her that the other woman does.

[RomanticFool]

Quick update: New woman just replied. She is still in hospital and sent me a lovely warm message about her op and asking after my dad. I have to stop thinking about her romantically but is this just transference or do I genuinely fancy the pants off her? She is actually everything my ex isn’t: thoughtful, funny, intellectual and we have shared interests. Alas, I also think she would lead me a merry dance. Is there any way in this world I can settle my mind on a beautiful friendship instead of wanting a r/s with her? Is it already too late? How do I deal with my feelings around all of this? Why are my feelings for my wife so dead? I don’t understand myself. I think if my wife threatened to walk out it would jolt me. How can my emotions be so off kilter constantly? Is this BPD? Me? Focusing on a love object to fill the emptiness?

[Insom]

I don't think my wife and I can ever rekindle our sex life and I'm not sure I want to. I think I may need to summon up the courage to leave to stand a chance of meeting somebody I actually want to sleep with... but turning my back on my wife would be very painful for both of us.

Hi, RF.  It sounds like you're feeling pretty discouraged.  Am I correct in remembering you wanted to make reconnecting with your wife a priority this year?  How has that gone?  Did you try and feel rebuffed?  Can you talk with her in a real way about how you feel? 

[RomanticFool]

Insom,

I was actually considering moving towards a separation but something happened today which has illustrated what a dreadful situation I am currently in and what emotional turmoil I am currently experiencing.

I mentioned the AA woman who I had become close to and she has continued to send out mixed signals which feature high intensity late night texting (poetry and music mainly), her presenting as a damsel in distress and showering me with compliments but being careful to avoid any talk of romantic attachment as she knows I am married and I suspect she is commitment phobic anyway. Indeed she told me that her mother is an undiagnosed NPD and that she knew how to avoid her mother controlling her. She also mentioned that she left her marriage when her daughter was young and was experiencing shame and guilt around that. The situation is complicated by the fact that she just came out of hospital after a painful throat operation.

I went over to her house this morning and brought coffee. We spent most of the day together and spent time being intimate with her pulling away if it went beyond arm touching. I went in to kiss her and she pulled away. I asked her why she hadn't returned my kiss when she clearly was sending out the signals. She then suddenly got defensive and denied she was sending out signals and cited my  marriage and the fact that she just wants a close friendship. I was honest with her and said that I was finding it difficult having such a close r/s when she clearly doesn't want anything romantic and I'm not really a good person to be her 'recovery buddy.' She said she enjoys my company and my poetry and other artistic talents and protested that there was nothing wrong with having a close friendship.

In order to defuse the situation I suggested we go out for something to eat, which we did and then she suggested going to the cinema, which we also did. While at the cinema we held hands and caressed each other's fingers and snuggled up. Then we went back to her place and she once again reiterated that there could be nothing between us as I am married and she left her own marriage and feels strong and doesn't really want a r/s. I told her that she was saying the exact opposite in texts last night and I quoted one of her texts where she said 'be careful because once I zone in on you I don't stop.' She denied that meaning what I thought it did and also said she wants to be friends. I apologised and told her that I shouldn't even be in this situation as she is a newcomer in AA and has just had a throat operation. At this point I just wanted to leave her house. She asked me if I wanted to hang out tomorrow and I said I couldn't. She then gave me a careful hug and I put my hands on her back to return it and she jumped back saying, "What are you doing?' I apologised and said I was just hugging her. She said she was nervous after the operation. Alarm bells started going off in my head and I told her that she is best sticking with AA women. I also said it wasn't a good idea being friends as I was too attracted to her. I left without further complication.

However, I got home and felt terrible. My wife had been out all day and I looked at her and felt that I am in a terrible place right now. I then got nervous that the AA woman might cry wolf to a friend and decided to text her an apology for the drama today, saying it was unforgivable when she was convalescing and took full blame as I didn't want her to be angsty while being in recovery from her op. She has not replied and I am having to seriously evaluate every situation in my life. I have to make a decision whether or not to stay in my marriage and if I decide to stay to actually try and fix what the problems are rather than looking outside. I am very scared by what happened today because I now feel that trying to date women is unsafe for an older guy like me and this is just a taster of what it could be like if I went back out there as a single man. I feel utterly miserable and out of my depth in every way. Coming hot on the heels of detachment from my ex, I don't know how much more trauma I can take.

RF

[RomanticFool]

I also want to add that I saw my own emotional dysregulation so strongly in the situation with the new woman today. My emotions were so strong as to be almost intolerable. With my ex, I had times when she was near me that I found almost painful if I couldn't touch her. I experienced the same thing with the new woman today. The intensity of my feelings were so extreme that it made me ruin the fun we were having and get heavy about my feelings for her. I think what triggered me was her mixed messages and contradictory, defensive statements about what she had or hadn't said. She then claimed that she had been entirely consistent in her communication with. Usually, I would smooth over these awkward moments in the early stages of a new friendship/r/s but I saw similarities with my ex and decided to flag them up. I had been very open with her that I had a long term r/s with an uBPD woman. We discussed the traits of BPD and I said I felt I had a fear of abandonment and an inner emptiness. The new woman said she didn't feel she had any of the traits but I pointed out that I felt she was doing a kind of push/pull with me and that perhaps she had some learnt behaviours from her mother. She told me that she is the exact opposite of her mother but the fact that she didn't text me tonight after my apology is also very familar.

I think I have simply had enough of the complexity of relationships, especially as I get older. I don't think my emotions can cope any longer with the touch me/keep away signals that this woman sent out. Have I attracted another disordered woman or am I closer to being a Borderline than I am aware? She said to me earlier in the day when I said I was struggling with being at such close quarters with her if she doesn't want more than friendship. She replied, 'Are you threatening to dump me if I don't put out.' With that kind of lack of understanding in people, I feel I need to protect myself and yet if I stay in a r/s without physical intimacy much longer I am going to sink into a major depression. I don't know what to do anymore. Life was so much easier when I was younger.

[Skip]

I think I have simply had enough of the complexity of relationships, especially as I get older. I don't think my emotions can cope any longer with the touch me/keep away signals that this woman sent out.

RM, it's not the complexity or relationships, it's the complexity of affairs.

Think of what you are doing here. Your wife is on vacation, so you are going on "dates" with a local women from AA, pushing physical boundaries with her, and telling her she might have BPD and you might have it, too.  

This is messy on a lot of levels. What's the best this can turn out to be?  Worst (serious questions)?

If you find an available, sexually active partner, will your leave your marriage or go for another affair?

Play it out. 

[mousemat]

If you find an available, sexually active partner, will your leave your marriage or go for another affair?

... .or (to add another option), raise the possibility with your wife of an open relationship?  I don't think it's at all fair/reasonable for someone to expect that their spouse will go without sex forever, when it's not something you've agreed to.  A pwBPD would probably initially perceive the idea as a threat, but if you can say (with honesty) that you remain committed to the marriage, perhaps she would eventually come around.

IMHO, affairs are rarely positive.  Secrets & lies are almost always corrosive to one's own spirit.

edit:  I'm not suggesting that you pursue a sexual relationship with your new friend.  Skip's use of the word messy is a wise warning.

[RomanticFool]

RM, it's not the complexity or relationships, it's the complexity of affairs.

Think of what you are doing here. Your wife is on vacation, so you are going on "dates" with a local women from AA, pushing physical boundaries with her, and telling her she might have BPD and you might have it, too.   Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)

This is messy on a lot of levels. What's the best this can turn out to be?  Worst (serious questions)?

If you find an available, sexually active partner, will your leave your marriage or go for another affair?

Play it out.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I don't really know how things would play out other than another disaster. I want to list things which I suspect are the truth based on my experience. This helps me to do the right thing without my emotions taking over:

1. Most women I attract in AA are very likely to have some kind of traits of a personality disorder. The woman I met has an NPD mother. I can see her traits playing out in front of my eyes. Love-bombing while reserving her position. Offering enticing invitations she has no intention of going through with, while keeping me at arms length. She very cleverly reverses the position by asking me if she is my 'supply.' I am very used to the promise of something which is never going to be delivered upon with my ex.

Aggressively arguing me out of any attempt to walk away from the situation. Using her substantial intelligence to manipulate and control me into being her recover buddy. She is already proving to be unreliable and distracted, despite words to the contrary. This morning we had the following conversation:

Her: I wish you could come over.
Me: I can. Shall I see you in 10 minutes?
Her: I'm meeting a friend for breakfast. Could you meet me in the same cafe that I'm meeting him?
Me: No, I don't have time as I have t drive to a family function.
Her: Shall I cancel my friend?
Me: No, we can do breakfast another time.

This is hot on the heels of a conversation that we had last night.

Her: I wished you lived nearer.
Me: I live near you.
Her: No, I mean just around the corner.
Me: I'm 10 minutes away.
Her: Really. Wow! I'm in bed.
Me: I see.
Her: Can you make a good omelette?
Me: I can actually.
Her: I thought so. You are amazing.
Me: Thank you. Would you like me to come over?
(After a 20 minute pause)
Her: That would be great but I've taking lots of painkillers and drifting off.
Me: Ok. Sleep well.

All of these conversations took place while she was texting others, most likely men to bolster her recovery self-worth and stave off boredom. I have no intention of sleeping with her. I told her very clearly on Saturday that I don't want to be such close friends as I find it painful to get that close to somebody I am attracted to when I'm married. After a whole lot of bleeting and remonstrating on her part I caved in and agreed to remain friends rather than not see her at all. She went right back into the love-bombing and asking me to recommend songs for her, so I thought I would call her bluff. Where I was being drawn into the push/pull last week, I wanted to break that pattern. She wouldn't have it so now I am trying to make her see the futility of having that kind of r/s with me. She is new to AA and probably doesn't know about her traits and if she does has found a way to keep her as the sane party by talking people around to do her bidding. I don't know how much of this is conscious. I have the advantage in that I've had many years in AA and 19 months on here. What is happening now is that while I am attracted to her and going some way into the limerence stage, because I know what is going on and precisely because I am winding the clock forward and playing it out, I know there is nothing doing with her. She is push/pulling and I don't think she even knows it. I think she is a nice woman and I don't want to turn my back on her completely as she may well feel something for me aside from supply, but I this is not going to be another situation like my ex. Armed with the knowledge I have the situation is imploding after a few weeks and my emotions are screaming at me to walk away. I guess this is progress of sorts.

2. My wife is the only woman currently in my life who cares about me. I still believe, despite my reprehensible behaviour, that this relationship may hold the key to any chance of happiness. I don't know how though because we don't have a sex life.

3. I want and need a sex life.

4. I am, as I suspected a 'limerence addict.'

5. Having recently detached from an overwhelmingly painful situation. Going straight into another one is too much for emotions to cope with. I was feeling depressed today because I am emotionally worn out. I think I purposely got myself involved with her to dull the pain of detachment from my ex.

6. I need therapy and am going to seek it out this month.

I don't yet know how to reconcile all of the above but I do know that having another affair is not an option. Yes, I've been out on dates with this woman but strangely enough even though she is playing a love-bombing game, I feel safe in her company because I now know there is no chance of her sleeping with me and it makes me more able to make a decision regarding my marraige while not yearning for female company. That may sound messed up but it makes sense in my head.

[RomanticFool]

IMHO, affairs are rarely positive.  Secrets & lies are almost always corrosive to one's own spirit.

You are correct sir. I think I am very soon going to deal with the issues in my marriage without taking refuge in the company of other women. In fact all of my interactions with these other women make me realise what a decent person my wife is.

The real problem is that she doesn't excite me in the way that all of these crazy women do. I notice that I go after a particular type. They are femme fatales. Always attractive, always aloof/unavailable, always unboundaried and always love-bombing me and then withdrawing. Always into language, poetry, music and art and attentive to me (initially anyway) in a way that my wife isn't. They also always leave huge gaps between conversations and are unreliable and constantly busy. Probably with other male company. Not necessarily sleeping with other men, but getting supply from them.

In every case I am triggered and my head tells me that I am in love. It is like a pavlovian response and every single time I am off down the road of chasing these women and convincing myself that I am in love and these women are going to save me. I now see very quickly the fallacy in that response.

I believe I am closer than I have been in the last 8 years to rekindling a sexual relationship with my wife. Her goodness makes me want her because I feel safe with her. I am attracted to the danger of these illicit affairs because the women are unobtainable and my emotional equals, and they are all recipes for disaster. I want to feel about my wife the way I feel about them because she will respond to me in a way that none of these other women are capable of doing. I know deep down I want my wife, but my sex drive and animal attraction drives me towards these femme fatales.

I am going to try and arrest these patterns. I am ready for therapy now to address this specific issue and try to get back in touch with my true moral standards and principles.

[Insom]

2. My wife is the only woman currently in my life who cares about me. I still believe, despite my reprehensible behaviour, that this relationship may hold the key to any chance of happiness. I don't know how though because we don't have a sex life.

Have you taken any steps toward intimacy with your wife?  Emotional or physical?  If so, how did that go? 

[RomanticFool]

Have you taken any steps toward intimacy with your wife?  Emotional or physical?  If so, how did that go?

I have discussed many times with her about getting a new bed. She is still sleeping in the spare room permanently. She has a sleep problem but I think it is also avoidance on her part. She has become sexually anorexic and is scared of rekindling her sex drive. She has told me as much. However, once my head is clear about the best way to proceed and I feel strong enough to do so, I am going to tell her very clearly that if we are not going to rekindle our sex life then we need to think about breaking up. I believe this will give her a jolt into trying to rekindle our love life. I am going to tell her that I have missed intimacy and sex with her and I am feeling sad inside. I keep telling her that I am feeling empty and depressed and so it won't come as a shock to her. I have to feel emotionally strong enough to face whatever happens. But I don't want an affair to break up my marriage. If it is going to break up I want it to be because it has broken down due to a lack of intimacy. If we do have to break up then it will be for the right reasons instead of the pain and rancour that an affair will bring.

[BeagleGirl]

RF,
You have come such a far way in understanding yourself!  I know that it may still feel impossible to do the right thing much of the time, but I think you should take a moment to celebrate that you are better able to recognize what the right thing is.

 

Now I'm going to offer some advice -

"Yes, I've been out on dates with this woman but strangely enough even though she is playing a love-bombing game, I feel safe in her company because I now know there is no chance of her sleeping with me and it makes me more able to make a decision regarding my marraige while not yearning for female company."
This sounds an awful lot like the justification I used in the months leading up to my affair.  I trusted that my affair partner would never want to sleep with me, so it was safe.  Guess what... .he did want to sleep with me.  I would not put my "safety" in the hands of a woman who you are beginning to see has plenty of issues to work through. 

In my opinion it is no wonder you are emotionally exhausted.  While you may be able to relax for short periods of time when you are with this woman, do you feel like that balances out the emotional drain this relationship is on you all the other hours of the day/week?

Back to celebration - I'm really glad to hear that you are going to start therapy.  You have a lot to work through and I believe professional help will be a much needed addition to your support system.

BG

[RomanticFool]

Beagle Girl,

Your words have proven very true. Yesterday I accompanied her to the hospital to get medication as the day before she collapsed after her body became overloaded from her post-op medication. I became worried about her and went around to her house in the morning as she wasn’t answering her phone and I was worried she had fallen asleep and something awful may have happened, like her heart stopping. I finally roused her and she decided I was the sweetest man alive. We spent a lovely day together and she unexpectedly took the initiative and kissed me. So we had a smoochy afternoon. I had to leave to go to the North of England to work overnight. On the train journey, I was the most wonderful person in her eyes, she asked me for a photo, we shared stories of our past and three hours later, while I was at the hotel, she decided that I’m a Narcissist because I made a gallows humour joke about health in general when she is concerned about having cancer. We had been cracking risqué jokes all day but despite all of my attention towards her, my caring behaviour throughout the day, getting a parking ticket and her texting me that she loved me, she has now switched her phone off and is clearly avoiding me.

I have been very open with her about my marriage, my ex and the fact that I am aware I may have some BPD traits. She in turn told me that her mother has NPD. I told her that I thought a significant number of people in AA (of which we are both members) may well have personality disorder traits. Now she has decided that I am a fully blown Narcissist because I exhibited ‘meanness’ in the form of humour. I told her I thought she shared my gallows humour and she declared: ‘How empathetic!’ The last thing she said last night was that she was scared of getting involved with another Narcissist, having already had one bad experience.

I now realise what  a total unboundaried idiot I’ve been with my freedom of information about myself. I feel she is doing everything she is accusing me of ie using things people tell you against them, push /pull, acting out abandonment fears and love-bombing. Trying to be totally objective about my own behaviour I admit I should not have made gallows humour jokes around health in an endeavour to make her laugh as I now feel guilt and shame. Something my ex never really made me feel until her suicide attempt.

Perhaps she is correct about me and is doing what she sees as the sensible thing. However, doing it the day after declaring her love for me has made me realise that her traits are probably worse than mine because she is in denial about them. At least I know about mine and can come on here and discuss them. I feel back to square one of being messsed up again. I seem to have two emotional places at the moment: 1. At home with my wife feeling her emotional neglect and mild disapproval but realising she loves me in her way. My overriding feeling in this place is boredom and yearning. 2. The place of excitement with a new potential love partner but yet another disordered person who is hurting me once again.

The proverbial rock and a hard place. Are the two main emotions of a person such as myself with undiagnosed potential personality traits destined to be boredom or pain? I feel so upset this morning. I think my new lover may be right about me and I’m scared and feel alone.

[BeagleGirl]

I think my new lover may be right about me and I’m scared and feel alone.

RF,
First of all... .  
I've been feeling scared and lonely today and it really really really sucks.  Shall we make a pact to practice self care and NOT "medicate" that feeling by running to a relationship that is potentially harmful?  

Secondly - Please reconsider referring to AA woman as "my new lover" .
It concerns me that you are putting her in that intimate position, especially after you have reached a point where you see the danger in entering into another affair.  Yes, you kissed.  I would feel more comfortable with "the woman I kissed" than "the woman I will now look at as my lover and affair partner".  The first acknowledges what has happened, the second sets up a future.  Is that what you want?  

You are dealing with a lot of questions about who you are and what aspects of your personality might be disordered and in what way.  That type of work should be done with a T.  Respectfully, someone who is newly dealing with substance abuse issues is not the best person to tell you who you are.  I would put VERY little credence in what she has to say about you.  You have shared yourself with her and been vulnerable, but that does not make her an expert in who you are.  

I will also say that her response to the gallows humor probably tells you more about her than about any flaws in yourself.  Not everyone shares the same sense of humor.  It's possible that your joke was a bit tactless in its timing, but you had no ill intent.  A healthy response to something like that is to say "Wow, that one hit a bit too close to home.  I don't think I'm ready to joke about that." Or maybe just not really laugh and give some indication of discomfort that allows you to see that it wasn't taken the way you intended and have the opportunity to apologize.  We all say "stupid" things on occasion.  It doesn't mean we are bad, inconsiderate, disordered people.  We're just human.

So I'm going to ask a hard question now.  Do you want us to try to help you resolve issues with this woman or help you walk away from her?  We are here to support you, but I think it's time for you to examine your intentions and be honest about them.  You've straddled the fence so far, but the kiss pushed you over to one side and the current rejection gives you an opportunity to plant yourself on the opposite side.  Are you ready to pick a side?

BG

[pearlsw]

Hi RF,

BeagleGirl is giving you a lot of great support here, as are others. I want to echo the sentiment that after all you've suffered through that you carefully consider what you are embarking upon.

I imagine it is hard given your past affair when this kind of thing comes up again. But please, stop, sit down, take a very deep breath and make a decision about this new woman, and then, I'd suggest, set a timetable for making a decision about your wife.

Living in limbo, one of your own creation, is a one-way ticket to an unhappy existence. Commit to something. BeagleGirl wrote out a great list of options for you. Which one makes the most sense? (knowing there is no perfect/pain free option.) You are the only one who can end this suffering. We are here for you!

take care, pearl.

[Insom]

Hey, RF.  May we return to the convo about your wife for a moment?  I'm rooting for you to get honest with her because in past posts you've indicated that truth and honor matter to you and I like to support people taking action that aligns with their values.  

I'm highlighting this statement because it sounds strong and honorable to me:

once my head is clear about the best way to proceed and I feel strong enough to do so, I am going to tell her very clearly that if we are not going to rekindle our sex life then we need to think about breaking up. I believe this will give her a jolt into trying to rekindle our love life. I am going to tell her that I have missed intimacy and sex with her and I am feeling sad inside. I keep telling her that I am feeling empty and depressed and so it won't come as a shock to her. I have to feel emotionally strong enough to face whatever happens. But I don't want an affair to break up my marriage. If it is going to break up I want it to be because it has broken down due to a lack of intimacy. If we do have to break up then it will be for the right reasons instead of the pain and rancour that an affair will bring.

Is this a statement that still rings true for you?  If so, how to reconcile with what's happened?

[Chitchat]

Hi RF

'I believe this will give her a jolt into trying to rekindle our love life'

Do you think an ultimatum will work in these circumstances?

[formflier]

RomanticFool

I'm trying to understand the apparent lack of pursuit of your wife.  Can you help me understand better? 

Somewhere in this post I believe I got the vibe of potentially telling your wife we need to get intimate again... or break up.  I would hope and ask you to put those ideas aside for a while.

What would happen if you pursued your wife for several months?  No ultimatums... .just pursuit.  Press her to go to the movies... .press her to go to breakfast... .show interest in her... consistently.

FF

[Skip]

But I don't want an affair to break up my marriage. If it is going to break up I want it to be because it has broken down due to a lack of intimacy. If we do have to break up then it will be for the right reasons instead of the pain and rancour that an affair will bring.

RM,

Isn't time to start therapy with you wife and have the therapist help you end the marriage and make the the divorce as respectful and painless to her as possible? Starting over at her age will be hard, but it will be much harder 5 or 10 years from now. You have said many times that she is a good person and doesn't deserve the infidelity that has been present through your entire 12+ year marriage.

If there was any thought that the 10 year affair (that just ended) was unavoidable because that women was your special/your soulmate or manipulated you, you now you have clear evidence to the contrary. The women from AA is the second women in a year that you have tried to connect with and she is not your soulmate. Nor was the other women that you tried to engage.

Is it already too late? How do I deal with my feelings around all of this? Why are my feelings for my wife so dead?

I think you are saying, "why don't I love her, she has been good to me, I'm not mad at her".  But the "so dead" might be better looked at as "never alive".  Surely you can see that if your prime love interest during your marriage was an affair partner, no love grew between the two of you and the man you wife knows never connected with her on a deep level. You two don't really know each other - you have lived a double life that she knows nothing about. You have tried to connect with your wife... .it can be tool late for these things... .and I think you can see that. You are already on your way to finding a new primary lover.

The new prospect is single and local. This one (or another) will likely become a discovered affair and/or the women you leave your wife for. The could easily lead her or her lawyers to discover phone records and credit card bills that show a her the length and intensity of the other relationship... .she could spend years in recovery and possibly never recover at all. Finding out the the entire marriage was a lie is a magnitude of injury that is hard to fathom.

You have been lucky/good in that you haven't gotten caught. You can end this thing now and spare her a lot of pain.

Clearly you like your wife and think she is a good person. And yes, getting a divorce with be a financial blow, but these are selfish reasons to stay married. I know this is hard to hear, but you have abused your wife at the highest level. You can set some of that right.

You may have been unsure before, but its clear now.

Getting out if the dual affair was good for your partners family. A good thing happened there - painful but good.

A good thing now would be to gift your wife an exit that doesn't destroy here. You can atone for what has happened. That will be a good thing - painful, but good.

Going this next step will open the door for you to find what you are really looking for.

Skip

[Wicker Man]

Romantic Fool,

I have all but walked a mile in your shoes.  To establish the similarity in our experience I would offer the following --In brief my wife suffers from OCPD -our relationship has been virtually sexless for 25 years.  I had a affair in China and filed for divorce.  My wife asked for reconciliation concurrently with my affair / engagement flying off the rails. I fully disclosed my affair in couple's counseling and we are working on rebuilding our marriage into something (hopefully) better.  --I got very lucky in the timing. I nearly made a life altering mistake.

Previously in this thread you questioned whether you are a limerence addict.  Good!  I am glad to know you have an understanding of limerence.  Basically the difference between 'falling in love' versus being in love. 

Skip, for whom I have the deepest respect, suggested you end you marriage.  If you plan to keep bouncing from one affair to another then I categorically agree with him.  Until you have seen it first hand, you can have no idea the horror disclosing an affair causes you mate.  I should imagine if your mate discovers an affair it is even worse than disclosure.
 
Betrayal is, I have come to understand, worse than a death in the family -people are supposed to die, they are not supposed to cheat.  It will break your wife on a root level.  Her identity, world view --all of it will be shattered.

I would like to suggest another possibility -the possibility you do not know how much your marriage actually means to you.  It is human nature to take for granted all that we know and all which we have.  You have been using your marriage as a foundation or safe place to run to when you affairs get rocky. 

My guess is none of your affairs would survive in the light of day -they are generally speaking not built to last.  Further... .without a safe harbor, your marriage, I should guess your dating would take on a darker tone in your current mental state.  You are, in my opinion, emotionally unfit for a relationship at this point in time.

If I were you I would give therapy a try.  Separate yourself from all of you affair partners, grieve and work on yourself.  You will not be able to work on yourself  'high' on limerence.  Use what you have learned in AA.  Treat your affairs as an addiction and remove yourself from the temptation.

In therapy try to figure out who you are and what you want.  Don't play -get your hands dirty.  Therapy can be life changing, but it takes commitment and brutally hard work.  Start a journal...   and read and read and read.

I would suggest for starters:

State of Affairs -Perel
Mating in Captivity -Perel
Marriage Clinic -Gottman
What Makes Love Last -Gottman
5 Love Languages -Chapman
A Road Less Travelled -Peck
12 Rules for Life -Peterson


My supposition is this --you are currently not in any emotional state to make life decisions.  Embrace therapy.  Once you have an idea of who you are then begin couple's with your wife and learn who the two of you are.  Your wife may not be any happier in your marriage than you are -the only way to know is to open an honest dialogue.

Then and only then will the two of you be able to understand whether or not you should continue your marriage.

Don't feel compelled to respond to this post.  This isn't an argument or even a bid to open a dialogue. --simply my view through the lens of experience.


Wicker Man

[Ltahoe]

I suppose I don’t understand the whole sexless marriage thing, so I’m kind of blind from that perspective.  I feel that if we take traits of pwBPD and apply it to the sex life maybe you could figure out your intimacy problems. PwBPD can often have particular ways of wanting things done, and can be very bad at letting people know this, basically expecting them to be mind readers about their perfectionist demands. I would think perhaps certain types of foreplay etc. and it might actually be more than just physical types could be of benefit. I’ve had issues with sex, not dry spells but have kind of figured out because my wife had some expectations that weren't getting met, they don’t need to be met nonstop but often enough, although she never verbalized or even implied. Were some of the things she wanted lacking when the sex went dry, Then perhaps it just became a permanent dry spell? I suppose some of what you are willing to do would depend on how attractive you still find your wife. Maybe approaching your wife as if it were someone new(like you do your potential affair partner) could help you reintroduce sex. It might take time like it would a new partner too. I think this is what FF is also getting at start courting or dating her again and build it up to what you want.

 I can’t imagine that you’d want to start a new relationship with someone that is pretty much already showing you she is a “basket case”. What would be the point of trading one for another? Also I’m wondering is AA an acronym used on this forum? Because I associate AA with Alcoholics Anonymous. If it is I’d especially be careful of meeting people there. It’s is possible that you are attracting dysfunctional people and this new woman is just using you as a means for something. Many woman who use men look for vulnerable nice guy types with the intention of giving them enough bait to exploit them but never really intending to go further. I’d probably tell this new woman that you guys obviously have different intended thoughts for your relationship so you feel it’s best not to continue on any level. If she really wants something more from you she’d probably be more assertive at that point and not let you go. If she just leaves it as is she’ll probably move on to the next.

I bring this up because I find it ironic that you say she’s really beautiful, possibly narcissistic, she happens to be in a time of emotional need with the operation, and you are vulnerable because of your sexual follies.  In the end you’re probably emotionally confused because you’re trying to care about two people at once, this only creates emotional confusion not clarity. You would think the longer you can keep both around the decision you want to make would become more apparent but it will become the opposite.

“Chase two rabbits catch none”

I’d probably chase your wife first considering you are married to her.

[XSurvivorX]

RF,

I'm a Johnny-come-lately to this thread so bear with me, please - I want to help and be supportive for you so I'll address what I can:

RF,
You have come such a far way in understanding yourself!

I want to echo BeagleGirl here - well done!  Her, Skip, FF, all of the above folks have given you some really solid insights on their situations, and their perceptions.

1. Most women I attract in AA are very likely to have some kind of traits of a personality disorder.

I gotta ask, mate - is AA really the right place to be meeting women, then?  

I am attracted to the danger of these illicit affairs

This makes a lot of sense, and I hope you don't take offense here (because I mean none, and I also don't know you from Job); As a guy who quit the sauce for a solid five years, I know when folks put down that vice they sometimes transfer that elsewhere.  A best mate of mine was an alcoholic for about thirty years and quit stone cold when he got a DUI.  Now he is a gamblaholic.  Loves the casino and its where all his money goes.  Tit for tat? I can't say, but he even admits he's replaced booze with gambling. I sort of feel I got him hooked on that 'cuz... .when I wasn't getting kicks from the bottle, I went to the casino (and dragged him on occasion)... .

Do you feel a similar way perhaps? Given the situation and state of your marriage and feelings, does this forbidden fruit as one might say, give you a bit of a rise and make you feel more alive?  If so - totally understandable, I just question if then these AA girls really are the kinds you want to focus your attention on. I mean, if it is just going to ultimately end up biting you in the arse in the end because they might also be using you to fill something in their own souls... .do you want that self-torture? You say you write poetry - there's got to be some bookshop circles with poets and artistic types you could start associating yourself with, no?  I don't know - just tossing out ideas here.

In every case I am triggered and my head tells me that I am in love. It is like a pavlovian response

You just described every single girl I ever fell in love with; if they gave me the slightest bit of attention, friendly smile, etc. - I was head over heels.  The vast majority of my entire life I had no real clue what love was, and I fell hard for at least a hundred girls (one I never spoke a word to, and only saw every day across the street from a bus stop).  Which is why I thought what my ex uBPDw was dishing out to me must be how love feels; tons of sex up front, then shut it off once I'm in and let the abuse and horror begin!

It took me meeting my current wife to recognize love; that feeling you described? That Pavlovian one?  I never felt it when I met her.  Not once.  I still don't.  Instead, what I realized was there was an entire other feeling that I had never known, nor knew how it felt to look for or recognize it. THAT my friend, was what I found real, true love to be.  She's my goddess, best friend and partner all rolled into one.  I found it in that absence of what I was used to feeling when I met girls.

2. My wife is the only woman currently in my life who cares about me. I still believe, despite my reprehensible behaviour, that this relationship may hold the key to any chance of happiness.

If that's the case, then as others have said, I would do what you need to do if this is really what you think will make you happy.  A sexless marriage is rough, and we're all human so we all have needs. I get it.  So its what can you do to make the best situation that you can?  Perhaps as Skip said, its the right time for the both of you to get into therapy together? Address a number of things, on her side and on yours?

6. I need therapy and am going to seek it out this month.

Re: the above comments, - I am super glad to hear this.  I think you need some help, mate (we all do to some extent) and I want to see you making solid choices with a clear head, and perhaps a fresh perspective from a T will be good for you.  I know it was for me, and helped me really be able to make a much better life for myself.

believe I am closer than I have been in the last 8 years to rekindling a sexual relationship with my wife. Her goodness makes me want her because I feel safe with her.

I believe this will give her a jolt into trying to rekindle our love life.

I honestly for both of your sake's hope so.  And, if you guys do go through some therapy or have some marital work you both do, but it doesn't happen... .what then?

If we do have to break up then it will be for the right reasons instead of the pain and rancour that an affair will bring.

I totally get it.  I honestly really feel for you RF. I guess my question for you is, what out of everything do you really value? What is it that you really want for yourself, what will ultimately make you happy?  Not just from this specific situation with the AA gal and your wife etc. What in life do you feel will make you fully satisfied from a relationship standpoint?

What are you willing to go through or do in order to achieve that?

What happens if you find that to be untenable? What concessions would you be willing to make to have the "best shot" 75% solution to happiness?

Take good care, RF - and I hope all goes well.  We're rooting for you  

[Red5]

Betrayal is, I have come to understand, worse than a death in the family -people are supposed to die, they are not supposed to cheat.  It will break your wife on a root level.  Her identity, world view --all of it will be shattered.

I've lived this myself... .not fun, life shattering, .ouch times one hundred thousand!

You just described every single girl I ever fell in love with; if they gave me the slightest bit of attention, friendly smile, etc. - I was head over heels.  The vast majority of my entire life I had no real clue what love was,

Me2... .I feel "in love" with the bronco ridding blonde that took my virginity at age 16... .and then later; the older brunette who gave me my first felatio experience age 17... .then I met my #1W and we married at age 16/18... .I knew nothing about anything... .wow ; (

Which is why I thought what my ex uBPDw was dishing out to me must be how love feels; tons of sex up front, then shut it off once I'm in and let the abuse and horror begin!

... .fast forward from nineteen eighty something to the Busch Jr. administration... .freshly divorced, and "dating"... .oh my, the first was a hot red headed real-estate agent, who drove a Volvo and wore leather racing gloves, she was fresh "on the market too" like me... .she ate me up !, literally and latterly wow !... .she almost had me lashed down, and ready for dismemberment, but although I was quite dizzy, and weakened by almost daily anyway I wanted it aggressive sex (love cluster bombing)... .I somehow managed to escape, before she got me back into the chains of matrimony  ... .and then I met #2W, .the rest is history, and here I am... .in the present administration ... .

Status update... .Red5 cannot remember when exactly the last time that he and u/BPDw went to the "submarine races"... .right now, that's not in the cards, or on the flight schedule... .no happy boom boom for Red5, it is the drought season for me... .

I look at it this way RM, as per life experiences, .if your married, ie' the bank owns your car title, .then DON'T be (caught) "driving" another... .until you get a "clear title" to do so... .does this make sense?

Yeah man... .get your pink slip back before you test drive a new one, .and watch out for rentals disguised as low mileage sports cars ... .so keep driving the one your making payments on ?... .geez, I crack myself up  !

Your life, your call man!

Go easy RM, .like Granny used to say, the "juke joint" ain't no place to met a lady... .or something like that... .

Caveat... .the hot red headed real-estate agent used to take me to AA meetings for a date, oh' yes!  ... .one time she even took me along with her to see her T, .maybe that one was more like a field trip, and not a date ?... .but it sure scared the $H1T outa me... .and I pulled the ejection handle !

Yeah, go easy RM... .

Best Regards RM, .Red5

[Cat Familiar]

RF,
I'm also late to your story and I'm under the impression that you've somehow managed to keep your romantic exploits concealed from your wife. You may think you've "gotten away with it" but I'm wondering if she somehow senses that you've been up to something. Women have this interesting thing often called "women's intuition" and if indeed her's is active, she might very well know more than you think she does--or at least sense that something is up with you and feel that you're a rather untrustworthy mate.

If so, it's no wonder that she has no juice for you romantically. Why would she for a man about town? It comes down to an innate self-protection mechanism that we women often have. If a man seems duplicitous and untruthful, why would we want to invite him into our bed?

I don't know more of your story but I would wonder what your wife has been experiencing emotionally from your absence in full participation in this relationship. And you want sex, but perhaps she wants security and a man she can trust before she's open to provide you with what you want.

Cat

[pearlsw]

Hi RF,

I want to acknowledge and recall that you have been under a lot of psychological pressure lately, had suicidal thoughts at times. I do not want to add that pressure in any way!

I know, helpful as we all mean to be, it can be a lot to see a giant batch of replies.

Are you okay? Please take your time and think these thing through carefully. Reply at your own pace. We're here for you. We understand this has been a tough journey for you and we care.

wishing you peace, pearl.