My wife is off meds and believes she is misdiagnosed

[sadandlonely]

While going through a divorce, my wife has decided (apparently with the help of her therapist) that her diagnosis 8 years ago is wrong and that she is actually very health. She has also found a new medication doctor that has agreed to help her get off of all medications. What doctor would let ANY patient off of mental health drugs while that individual is going through a divorce. This seems like malpractice to me, regardless of what my wife might have going on.

Is this normal? How can I do anything to help in this situation? There are times when this stuff is said and it makes me wonder if I'm the crazy one. I mean she has 2 doctors telling her to go off her meds and she isn't sick, so it must be me, right? I'm confused and alone watching my marriage and my life go up in flames. What can I do at this point? What options do I have?

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[BeagleGirl]

Sadandlonely,
The prospect of having your wife go off her medications must be very frightening.  As you alluded to, going through a divorce is hard enough when everything else in your life is stable.

I will admit that I went off Lexapro during my separation.  It wasn't as well planned as I would have liked, but I did have a close friend and my T keeping an eye on my mood with clear instructions to let me know if they thought I needed to go back on.  It ended up working out for me, but my need for medication was situational and getting away from the daily stress of living with dBPDxh seemed to resolve the "situation" enough for me to no longer need it.

Can you share what medication(s) your wife is taking?  I believe that most studies have shown that medication has very limited effectiveness in treating BPD, but if there are other disorders, managing those disorders can help the overall situation. 

If you haven't been already, it would probably be a good idea to start a journal of your wife's behaviors.  If you can show that she seems to be dysregulating on a more frequent basis as she tapers off her medications, it could be helpful. 

BeagleGirl

[isilme]

You state it as if your only input into your W's T's or MD's actions is based on, well, your W's reporting it to you.  Do you see any way this might be skewed, and that she "might" have reason to be less than truthful about what really is the T's or MD's recommendations versus what she wants to tell you?

Any time someone who is emotionally dysregulated with a condition that resolves around dodging blame and responsibility tells me someone else told them to do something (something that sounds weird, or crazy), I question the validity of their statement.  Not to them - that would be outright invalidation... .but I don't believe it when they tell me their therapist or doctor says "the sky is purple, so you have to believe me."  It's an appeal to authority - you have to believe me because someone with the magic credentials says so.  No, you can't talk to them, what?  Don't you believe ME?  

Meds may treat certain comorbid issues that can exist WITH BD< but rarely will treat BPD, since it's behavioral, not necessarily chemical in nature.  Somethings, like anxiety or depression, sure, can be treated with meds.  BPD is still there, it just may have fewer jagged edges.  BPD needs a form of behavioral therapy if any therapy is to work.  This means the pwBPD has to admit they have a problem, and they have to make changes AND commit long-term to those changes and that hard, deep, introspective honesty.  Now... .how easy or common do you think this can be for someone who might have trouble admitting they forgot to write something on a grocery list and can engage in a full rage to dodge that blame and invalidation?  (Sorry, my husband is like this.  he almost blew up yesterday over "whose fault" it was he was having trouble in a video game.  Somehow it was supposed to be my fault he skipped some steps and needed to backtrack to progress.   I apparently designed the game)

People taking antidepressants (I know I did for a while), or bipolar people, don't often like how the drugs make them feel.  I liked it at first, because I was in a really bad place, and I needed that numbness and buffer.  But I was also happy to wean myself off them when I lost my insurance and had gotten through the bad patch.  My BPD/bipolar mother hates her meds.  Says they make her fat.  Doesn't like not having the sharp highs and lows of bipolar disorder.  Feel flat on her meds.  And so she won't take them, lies about why, and then gets arrested for shoplifting or other impulsive actions.  Yay.  

So, I seriously doubt your W's T or MD(s) heard a truthful rendition from your W, and I doubt she gave you a truthful rendition herself.  

Fact - she's not taking her old meds.  Fact - she may be trying something new.  Fact - this is a strange time for it, but it is what it is.

If you are currently divorcing, I assume you have legal counsel.  I'd certainly make mention of this, as BeagleGirl recommends.  Also, filter what she says.  Take it all with a grain of salt.  Basically, I read all of this as "I don't want to take meds, nothing is wrong with me, it's all you, so ha, take that in the divorce."

Here's a thought:  Could someone have cautioned her that being on mental health drugs could make her look bad IN the divorce?  And cautioned her to get off any meds?  

[sadandlonely]

BeagleGirl - You might be right on the medication, but it still seems odd to me that she would go off of them during an emotional time.

isilme - I know you are right, but I tend to give my wife the benefit of the doubt (BIG mistake... .I know). So when I hear these things I assume them to be true. But yes, she could be lying to me, to her therapist, to her MD, who knows. She has found a lot of ways to dodge blame and make it about me. Even twisting things to be how she felt bad because of my reactions. No ownership at all in regards to anything. Part of my problem is that I don't realize these things until after the discussions. I get so caught up in the roller coaster that I lose my own logic and sense. It is funny to me that I'm not allowed to talk to her doctors or her family anymore... .makes me wonder about what is REALLY being said.

I like that you got blamed for the video game design, funny how logic goes out the door.

It is funny the blaming because you are right, so much of it has been how she is so healthy now and I am the problem. Even in round about ways, like she felt so guilty because I did something. Or she felt she couldn't make me happy, which is a long way of saying I'm the problem but it is disguised as her taking the blame. I don't get how I don't see it more as it is happening. I think I try to see her as a normal person and my wife, but perhaps that is blinding me. But I feel rude and unfair always trying to see it as a BPD playing games.

It is possible that someone told her the drugs could make her look bad in the divorce, but I really don't see how it would change anything. We don't have kids so it shouldn't cause issues.

Our marriage therapist flat out told me that he doesn't feel her therapist will listen to him about his point of view. How can I get someone away from a bad therapist that is enabling them?

[pearlsw]

Hi sadandlonely,

I hear that you are feeling powerless and it seems like no one around you is listening to reason. In these situations it might be good to take a big step back and gently remind ourselves of the things we can and cannot control in life. This sounds like something out of your control. She can make a decision to end her medication, and make a decision to get a divorce. I know it is hard and you are struggling because it feels like you should be able to put the brakes on all of this. Reason, right?

But she is entitled to make her own medical decisions, even if they are ill-advised ones, as painful as that is for you. I am sorry! I don't know what is or isn't right for her and why she might be going this route right now. (Sounds like she is trying to detach in every way she can think of. Do you see it that way?)

It's like how we've had to get used to this "our partner might kill themselves" issue we've been talking about... .We can't do anything about things that are in others hands. I know, it hurts so much! And seems so wrong! But it is how things are now.

At what point in the process is the divorce? Not to get your hopes up, but in the past I have been extremely close, not wanted to divorce, while he did very much (on some days), and then it all somehow didn't happen. That is certainly nowhere near things being "all better" or "okay", but it did not happen. I also had some awareness of the rules, eventually, about divorce in this country so I knew it could never happen fast. In fact, I could delay it for 2 years if I wanted to! (That's a lot, huh?)

I would never make someone stayed married to me who didn't want to be, but I did use knowledge of this slow down mechanism a bit to gain time until his moods stabilized. (I told him I refused to divorce while he was dysregulating, that it would have to be slow and planned, not happen because of a meltdown. I'd seen too many of these.) But it was risky in every imaginable way!

Again, not to say what is possible for you, but in my case, at times, I would make sure that my SO saw me in person. He would run off and try to end things and was VERY CONVINCING. But I knew deep down if we were together in person he probably could not go through with it. This "worked" on a few occasions for me, getting back in the same space, helping to calm him and then watching his mind change and being filled with regret and begging me never to leave him.

I do not recommend this, it is just how it happened. That is why we can't give a single answer on what might "work" to get her to open back up. We try something, it might work a few times and things can change. Agreeing to a divorce also led my SO to back off of wanting one. There are lots of variables. Again, he can be very convincing that things are totally over, but at some point, he could really go through with it. I imagine it will be hard to tell when that time comes after all we've been through.

In your case you have to decide if this is real and if it is at what point do you accept it? I know that is much easier said than done! If there is still some time and interest to "save" things and you don't have to lose your dignity in the process than it might be worth some more effort. I knew how and what to say, quite often, to get my SO's thinking to alter, and get him back on board, I gave a lot of rousing "let's make this work" or "what relationships mean to me" speeches, but what I know only applies to him. And to be honest, there are only so many of these speeches I could give without feeling absolutely drained and exhausted. His illness, his need to not feel hurt and abandoned, was too much for me at times.

So, taking at look at your own dynamic, at your own relationship history with her, what, in your opinion might open her back up? Or do you believe in heart she won't budge and this is it? Where are things now?

with deep compassion, pearl.

[sadandlonely]

Pearlsw,

I get what you are saying and I have been VERY codependent. I absolutely have put myself second and worried all about my wife and her well-being. I know I didn't cause it, I can't cure it, and I can't control it. But her actions are also a part of my life. I feel like I'm in a plane headed straight for the ground and everybody is telling me to sit down and order a drink. I may not be able to fly the plane, but I'm going to try instead of sit there and watch it slam into the ground. Because my relationship is part of me and my life. Isn't working on saving my marriage a good move for me?

Nothing has been started yet with the divorce and that is one thing that is interesting. For 3 months I've heard this and yet nothing has moved. I do feel it is getting closer everyday though, but I'm not moving to help it happen.

I do need to be stronger, more rational, and secure with where I am. I always was that but I lost a lot of it due to other family and financial issues in the last year. The sad part is that I hoped when I "fell down" my partner would be there to pick me up. Instead it seems they only made things worse for me. That said, I know the love is there and I would never leave. I'm loyal and stubborn, and I truly do love her and will do anything I can for her. Even if she divorces me I won't abandon her. But I'm still losing half of my life.

[isilme]

Nothing has been started yet with the divorce and that is one thing that is interesting. For 3 months I've heard this and yet nothing has moved. I do feel it is getting closer everyday though, but I'm not moving to help it happen

I will hazard a guess the word "divorce" is meant to make you behave in some way to "make her happier" that you're just not doing from her point of view.  They see their lack of positive feelings as a failing on OUR part.  If only we, the Non, just cared enough to do whatever magical unicorn thing was needed to ensure they are happy!

Back to the video game - another silly set of interactions.  I guess if I still had my head cold I'd be more distressed, but I'm actually somehow doing better - will make my own post in a bit, but, back tot eh game.  H starts just fine.  We're enjoying his adventures through charting new planets, he's letting me name all the alien life forms he finds - my names are usually silly or just stupid, but he seems to find them funny.  I tend to look up things (I hate not having answers - nerd, I know), while he plays.  He asks, "how do I get a free ship?"  I read him how, he starts out doing it, gets frustrated, gets more frustrated, starts picking at me, griping at me, yells at me as if that will help the electrons move better, accuses me (again) of telling him he's playing the game "wrong" and so on.  At one point he tells me I'm stupid and don't understand a problem he's having and I finally answer, "Yes, I can see it and understand it.  My understanding it is not going change what is on your screen."  In his emotional state, his idea seemed to be if I truly understood the problem, I'd tell him the magic way around it and make it all go away.  (I knew the answer and tried to use SET to tell him, but he still did not like it - keep playing, follow instructions, stop ignoring instructions).

But that comment made him get quiet.  To him, understanding the problem and his feelings was synonymous with fixing the problem for him, and therefore fixing his feelings.  I can totally understand a problem.  I can feel just as mad about it, or not mad at all about it.  None of that makes me more or less able to FIX a problem.  If I can fix a problem, I do it.  If I can't, he has a hard time accepting it - he makes insane demands, expects a miracle, and if it's a bad night or his sugar is off, it just goes downhill.

Your W is likely looking for you to "understand" she is upset, and have all these feelings inside her she does not like.  And, she is expecting you once you "understand" to "fix" them for her.  She is not able to take responsibility for her own feelings, accept her part in them.  She has to assign blame outside of herself.  And for adults in romantic relationships, the SO is the person most often picked as the scapegoat and the "fixer", unless there are children - then it may cycle around who has which use for them.  

So, she is telling you things about how this is your fault, she's totally healthy, her docs tell her so.  She is telling you she wants a divorce (but somehow that has gained no steam?).  You don't seem to want a divorce?  And have made the wise choice to leave it up to her to start?  Correct?

Why do you think it's moving closer?  Is it because her emotional state seems to be getting worse?  Is it because she brings it up more?   Is it your own feelings of doom and gloom here maybe prophesying a divorce that no one is moving forward?  Is she sucking you into her mindset?

I get what you are saying and I have been VERY codependent. I absolutely have put myself second and worried all about my wife and her well-being. I know I didn't cause it, I can't cure it, and I can't control it. But her actions are also a part of my life

Yes, her actions are part of your life, as much a part as you allow them to be.  I grew up isolated, alone in a house with two BPD parents, believing whole heartedly that their happiness as my job to manage and secure.  I understand codependency.  

Here's the thing - I can't make my bipolar mom happy.  I can't make her take her meds (I even tried in my 20s to get a power of attorney over her - my boss let me speak for free to HIS lawyer for an advice session, he was kind, and they said unless I could prove she was a danger to others, not just herself, I'd have a long, expensive legal battle.  I made a whole $6.50 an hour WITH a college degree.  I could not pursue this, and am now glad I could not).  I can't fix her life.  I am not responsible for her losing her job(s).  Her apartment(s).  Her arrest(s).  This was very hard to accept, but slightly liberating, too.

What are you trying to shoulder as your responsibility that is not yours?  What can you do in some ways to put yourself first?  BPD means she's gonna get mad anyway - you might as well have her mad over things you WANT to do, not just who moved the TV remote.  Fight a real battle and set a boundary or two about things you will tolerate, things you won't do, things you want to do, not as an ultimatum, but as a way to change yourself, your feelings, and get yourself to a better place.  Don't fight an entrenched battle and get nowhere.  You've tried spinning your wheels, playing the codepdent game of "I can be ahppy once she's happy, right?"  It's just gotten you stuck in mud.

Isn't working on saving my marriage a good move for me?

Yes, it very much is.  But what you are doing is NOT working.  So it's time for some new strategies.  

How do you interact?  How do you two experience conflict?  What was going on around the time the D-word started coming up?

[sadandlonely]

The game thing really makes me laugh because it reminds me of some of the pointless battles we had before she left. With everything going on in life and the world it is so funny to think how caught up we let them get us on such stupid things.

Our conflicts were usually her freaking out and me trying to calm her down. I will admit that over the years I got pretty beat down over it all. It was so slow that I don't think I noticed it. Don't confuse that with me not caring for her, I just need to better handle myself again. A cheating event happened and that was when divorce started getting tossed around. I think she is guilty and feels there is no way to get past it, no matter how much I tell her we can work past it. It all started happening after a family member died which I think really set things off and got her adoption/abandonment issues to come out even more. I think it is moving closer because she is more withdrawn and mentions doing it ASAP. She seems pretty set and mentions not ever changing her mind about it.

I understand that I can't make her happy and she can't make me happy. That isn't the point of a relationship. Happiness must come from within. I've spent the last few months focusing on me and doing what I like, but there is a big lump of depression to get over between this and several other issues in my family life. I do believe it has been good for me by forcing my codependence to go away. But with all of her issues it is still easy to feel I need to fix her and get her to a good doctor. Again, I get that is wrong but I still feel it is my attempt to save the marriage.

I feel better and that I have things more together, but there are bad moments. Good or bad though, I do want her back and I do love her. I've tried pulling back and showing that I'm focusing on me because I was very clingy when she first left. But I worry that it will turn in to out of sight out of mind with her. If we don't spend time together, how can I get her back? I'm more stable this last month then I have been in probably 6 months. But I feel the relationship isn't getting any better.

[isilme]

I think it is moving closer because she is more withdrawn and mentions doing it ASAP. She seems pretty set and mentions not ever changing her mind about it.

But has anyone drawn up any papers?  Has anyone seen a lawyer?  If not... .it's talk meant to push you into something she wants to be done - make her fully 100% happy, probably, and that you just can't do.  Make her feel forgiveness she can't allow herself to feel for cheating.  Basically, it sounds like she fell into a rabbit hole, and can't accept she did it caused it and move forward.  In her mind, the only solution MUST be divorce, this marriage has too many problems in her mind's eye.  pwBPD tend to think of leaving, running away from a problem lets them "solve" it.  They don't realize the problem is their own inherent instability, which follows them wherever they go.   

My H paints time to time.  I can think the painting is fine, looking good, leave the room for a bit, come back and he's scraped off all the paint, because it was "ruined".  It was not perfect in his mind, therefore it needed to be discarded, destroyed.  Black and white.  All or nothing.

You sound very low, I am sorry.  You seem to feel powerless, you're not. 

I'm more stable this last month then I have been in probably 6 months. But I feel the relationship isn't getting any better.

Good for learning to feel more stable.  You can't help her if you are having your own issues.  You're doing good to try to get yourself to a stronger place.  We can't be effective in helping others fight a cold when we just caught the flu.  Keep working on you.  Chronic depression is hard to fight, I know, many on here know. 

You know you can't control her, but you can talk to her.  How does that go when you do?  Who contacts whom?  She's is running.  I think she kinda wants to be chased but not caught - push pull.  She can't let herself feel like she's worth being caught right now I think - if she feels guilt over the cheating and SHE can't get past it, all you can do is try to be kind, be loving, in actions, not just words, if you can.  Actions break past the weird BPD barriers to communication better than words.  Words are hollow to them, expressions of shifting emotions, not a stable, steady attempt to convey a feeling that is not in turmoil.  All they know if ever shifting emotions.  The stability and object constancy we experience they just don't understand.  So, words sound like lies at times.  Platitudes.  Actions, though, consistent actions, seem to speak much better, but they take time to establish. 

The relationship is in a stalemate.  This is why it doesn't feel it's improving.  You've hit a weird balance of still being married, but not together.  Do you interact often?  Even try date nights?  Fun things?  Not clingy things.  Nothing too over the top sappy - that seems to trigger fears of engulfment.  But do you call her up, and ask if she wants to see a movie? 

Remember one thing, if it helps with the depression you feel - her emotions are not your fault, and not your responsibility to fix.  You can offer tools to help her feel better - hugs, a shoulder to lean on, etc, but that's it.  SHE has to choose to feel otherwise.  None of this is your doing, she is a disordered person, and had she married another, they would now be in your shoes, too.  She can't help it to an extent, not with her current set of skills.  She can learn, just like you are learning, but she needs to see you've learned to be better and healthier, and then decide to join you.  I hope you're okay.