Seeking advise for contact with kids after a restraining order

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I've been with my husband for 12 years. We have 3 children. Our relationship has been a rollercoaster - as I'm sure you are all familiar with. A couple of months ago, I sought therapy for myself - having felt like I died but just kept living - strange feeling I'm guessing was a sort of dissociation. Our fights have been explosive - with me an active participant until a few months ago, when my therapist mentioned some of the behavior I had been describing my husband engage in sounded like a personality order. After hours on Google, listening to Stop Walking on Eggshells, and finding this place - its like wearing glasses for the first time. My husband has not been formally diagnosed, but I changed my behavior.  I stopped trying to JADE. I stopped engaging. I was able to see when things were coming, almost identify what caused it, and keep it from escalating too much. However, a couple of bad episodes snuck in and after my daughter (3) witnessed too much and went to bed hiding under the covers asking I had the door locked to ensure her father wasn't coming in, I put my big girl panties on and did what I should have done months if not years ago. I filed and was granted a temporary restraining order. When he learned, before he was served with it, he went balistic, made many threats of suicide, told me if he saw a cop, he'd take his gun and shove it in his mouth. When the police came to our home to serve him (the children and I were long gone, but the neighbors have recounted) he was taken out in handcuffs. I contacted his mother about the suicide threats - she told me it was between him and I and was not her problem (wonder why he has BPD?). I forwarded the threats to his therapist - who contacted me - she said he had not been honest (shocker) and I provided her 32 screen shots of the messages he sent in the 24 hours from the event to the service of the order.

I'm now at a loss for where things go. My husband has been a devoted father - stay at home dad for the first 15 months of each of kids lives (which was sort of by default as he was fired from 2 jobs either during or just after I gave birth). But I can't help but feel what happened, and what has happened in the past, its the kind of stuff you see in the paper where someone kills their family and themselves. I do not know how to reconcile my feelings about him being a great dad (although not so great that you abuse your childrens mother in front of them or cause your kids to have sleep under the covers in fear), with my need to keep my children and myself safe. I have no clue where I'm at in my mind about divorce (I most definitely should divorce him, but am still in denial and still hopeful he's the exception to BPD, will magically see this as rock bottom and get the help he obviously needs. Even then, it would take months, if not years.

So I guess I'm looking for advise. For war stories. For support. For commiseration.

[PersistNeverless]

I've been with my husband for 12 years. We have 3 children. Our relationship has been a rollercoaster - as I'm sure you are all familiar with. A couple of months ago, I sought therapy for myself - having felt like I died but just kept living - strange feeling I'm guessing was a sort of dissociation. Our fights have been explosive - with me an active participant until a few months ago, when my therapist mentioned some of the behavior I had been describing my husband engage in sounded like a personality order. After hours on Google, listening to Stop Walking on Eggshells, and finding this place - its like wearing glasses for the first time. My husband has not been formally diagnosed, but I changed my behavior.  I stopped trying to JADE. I stopped engaging. I was able to see when things were coming, almost identify what caused it, and keep it from escalating too much. However, a couple of bad episodes snuck in and after my daughter (3) witnessed too much and went to bed hiding under the covers asking I had the door locked to ensure her father wasn't coming in, I put my big girl panties on and did what I should have done months if not years ago. I filed and was granted a temporary restraining order. When he learned, before he was served with it, he went balistic, made many threats of suicide, told me if he saw a cop, he'd take his gun and shove it in his mouth. When the police came to our home to serve him (the children and I were long gone, but the neighbors have recounted) he was taken out in handcuffs. I contacted his mother about the suicide threats - she told me it was between him and I and was not her problem (wonder why he has BPD?). I forwarded the threats to his therapist - who contacted me - she said he had not been honest (shocker) and I provided her 32 screen shots of the messages he sent in the 24 hours from the event to the service of the order.

I'm now at a loss for where things go. My husband has been a devoted father - stay at home dad for the first 15 months of each of kids lives (which was sort of by default as he was fired from 2 jobs either during or just after I gave birth). But I can't help but feel what happened, and what has happened in the past, its the kind of stuff you see in the paper where someone kills their family and themselves. I do not know how to reconcile my feelings about him being a great dad (although not so great that you abuse your childrens mother in front of them or cause your kids to have sleep under the covers in fear), with my need to keep my children and myself safe. I have no clue where I'm at in my mind about divorce (I most definitely should divorce him, but am still in denial and still hopeful he's the exception to BPD, will magically see this as rock bottom and get the help he obviously needs. Even then, it would take months, if not years.

So I guess I'm looking for advise. For war stories. For support. For commiseration.

[ForeverDad]

Our reality is a bit brutal, one where dreams, hopes, even promises to change, are unlikely and can sabotage ourselves.  The practical approach is to low-ball your expectations.  You know how well you tried and tried to help him... .years of effort and what did it get you?  If anything, it got worse over time.

One reason is that you can't fix him.  The old saying, "You can lead a horse (mule?) to water but you can't make it drink."  He has to really, really want to fix himself and even that will only succeed if he has professional guidance and monitoring for years.

How much the other parent will respond and change without a neutral professional providing guidance and structure, well, is unknown.  Late in life in 2011 the early pioneering professional on BPD, Marsha Linehan, revealed that she of all people too suffered with BPD.  The original NYTimes article.  She is the exception to the rule who found a way to help herself and accept help, whereas nearly all suffering with BPD need an emotionally neutral guiding professional.  Neutral is crucial because the Borderline emotional baggage is immense and a strong barrier for them to listen to those emotionally close to them.  I recall the author of "I Hate You! Don't Leave Me!" writing that she never ever even touched her therapist, keeping an emotionally neutral therapeutic distance, not until they hugged on her Graduation Day.

I'm only cautioning you that there may be a limit to what you or others can do regarding the other parent.

Why is it so hard for your spouse to listen and respond to you?  To a large extent, it's the close emotional relationship itself.  Your spouse finds it difficult to Let Go the emotional baggage of the past relationship and listen to you the target of his angst.  It's like the arrangement of marriage makes him feel he's entitled and free to let loose on you in private scenarios, like you're locked in and stuck.

He is messed up.  Even if he didn't rant and rage at the children thus far, it's very likely that at some future point he would, especially as the kids get older and seek increasing independence as they progress to adulthood.  Without intervention things generally don't get better, they get worse.

Divorce is just about the only option for most of us.  It enables the court to step in and be the bigger Authority that even he has to recognize.  Court doesn't try to fix or change the parents.  It deals with them as they are, often ignoring our offers that a mental health diagnostic label is at the root.  Instead, court generally is more willing to address the behaviors and behavior patterns.  You would do well to Accept reality, accept What Is.

[Turkish]

Are you and the kids safe right now?

[livednlearned]

I can't help but feel what happened, and what has happened in the past, its the kind of stuff you see in the paper where someone kills their family and themselves.

I felt the same way. It's an awful thought, and when you live with someone mentally ill and dangerous, it's where your mind goes. I'm so sorry for the sadness that brings you here, and glad you found the site.

Being walked out in handcuffs, I can imagine how harrowing that must be for you to have that mental image.

Have you consulted with any lawyers? Consulting does not mean you have to retain them -- you can talk to two or three for a couple hundred (or more depending on where you live) and ask them questions about how things work where you live. People in low-conflict divorces (roughly 80 percent of all divorces) can afford to focus on whether to divorce or not. People in high-conflict marriages (20 percent) have to figure out how to do this while keeping everyone safe, whether it's from suicidal ideation, DV, or false allegations.

I felt like I was detonating a bomb. The first time I contacted a lawyer, it was because my ex was making threats and his behavior was getting worse and I needed to do something proactive. It helped to clarify a lot of things so that I didn't make any missteps. For example, your L might tell you under no circumstances do you allow him to violate the order, otherwise you may lose credibility in family law court later on when you ask for a second one. There are many DV survivors who give their spouses second third and fourth chances, and the courts start to look at both parties as troubled. That was important information and helped me see my options as different strategies depending on how things went in our marriage.

I do not know how to reconcile my feelings about him being a great dad (although not so great that you abuse your childrens mother in front of them or cause your kids to have sleep under the covers in fear), with my need to keep my children and myself safe.

The book Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men by Lundy Bancroft can help with understanding this. I know it must feel so hard, and I hope you know it was the right thing to protect yourself and the kids. I admire you for taking what had to be such a difficult step toward stabilizing yourself and your family.

I have no clue where I'm at in my mind about divorce (I most definitely should divorce him, but am still in denial and still hopeful he's the exception to BPD, will magically see this as rock bottom and get the help he obviously needs. Even then, it would take months, if not years.

How long does the protective order last, and what are the conditions around it?

A lawyer will probably tell you this, if one hasn't already, but if he violates it, you have to enforce it. With BPD sufferers, letting boundaries goes soft can mean that next time they will push twice as hard to get the same result.

Do you think your husband will get a diagnosis and accept that he has BPD?

[ForeverDad]

made many threats of suicide, told me if he saw a cop, he'd take his gun and shove it in his mouth

One line item in protection/restraining orders is whether the person has firearms or has access to them.  Him talking about killing himself would be an added concern.  Do the police know about his threats?  Usually weapons have to be surrendered to the police or to another person for safekeeping at least for the duration of the order.  Was that done?

[PersistNeverless]

Are you and the kids safe right now?

Yes, right now we are safe.

[PersistNeverless]

Have you consulted with any lawyers? Consulting does not mean you have to retain them -- you can talk to two or three for a couple hundred (or more depending on where you live) and ask them questions about how things work where you live. People in low-conflict divorces (roughly 80 percent of all divorces) can afford to focus on whether to divorce or not. People in high-conflict marriages (20 percent) have to figure out how to do this while keeping everyone safe, whether it's from suicidal ideation, DV, or false allegations.

I felt like I was detonating a bomb. The first time I contacted a lawyer, it was because my ex was making threats and his behavior was getting worse and I needed to do something proactive. It helped to clarify a lot of things so that I didn't make any missteps. For example, your L might tell you under no circumstances do you allow him to violate the order, otherwise you may lose credibility in family law court later on when you ask for a second one. There are many DV survivors who give their spouses second third and fourth chances, and the courts start to look at both parties as troubled. That was important information and helped me see my options as different strategies depending on how things went in our marriage.

The book Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men by Lundy Bancroft can help with understanding this. I know it must feel so hard, and I hope you know it was the right thing to protect yourself and the kids. I admire you for taking what had to be such a difficult step toward stabilizing yourself and your family.

How long does the protective order last, and what are the conditions around it?

A lawyer will probably tell you this, if one hasn't already, but if he violates it, you have to enforce it. With BPD sufferers, letting boundaries goes soft can mean that next time they will push twice as hard to get the same result.

Do you think your husband will get a diagnosis and accept that he has BPD?

So much here, thank you for responding. Irony of ironies, I am a family law attorney - it can happen to anyone, huh? Part of what stopped me on prior occasions, when I really should have sought a restraining order, was the embarrassment of my colleagues, the judges I practice in front of, the court staff I interact with, all knowing my dirty secret. But my daughters safety means more to me then my reputation and I made the call.

The protective order is temporary at this time, so only in place until a hearing for a permanent order occurs - scheduled for next week, although logistics of finding an neutral judge may change that.

I will most definitely enforce if he violates, I know the trap of letting them slide and it coming back to make it seem that you weren't really in need of protection.

I hope he will get a diagnosis. He has been in therapy for about 3 months - I made contact with the therapist when he began making suicide threats and his family dismissed my request for help. His therapist reached out to me, said he hadnt been honest. Only promising thing is, he chose her randomly and she specializes in DBT, so if he wanted to seek treatment, she could help. He also sought multiple appointments this week after being served.

[PersistNeverless]

One line item in protection/restraining orders is whether the person has firearms or has access to them.  Him talking about killing himself would be an added concern.  Do the police know about his threats?  Usually weapons have to be surrendered to the police or to another person for safekeeping at least for the duration of the order.  Was that done?

That is right. We have no weapons. His threats were that if he saw a police officer attempting to serve him with anything, he would grab THEIR gun and put it in his mouth. I called them to tell them this, so they would be aware when they attempted to serve him.

[livednlearned]

I am a family law attorney - it can happen to anyone, huh?

It happened to my family law attorney, too. Two years into our four year custody battle, she disclosed to me that she was going through a high-conflict divorce herself. With another attorney.

I believe my lawyer requested a special hearing, either with a judge from neighboring counties, or some other arrangement. I'm so sorry you have to deal with on top of everything else. 

[ForeverDad]

The protective order is temporary at this time, so only in place until a hearing for a permanent order occurs - scheduled for next week... .

Many of us started with ex parte temp orders for temporary protection.  They can continue if the case gets continued, as may likely happen.  Mine went for over 3 months.  However, when it was decision time, my ex withdrew her complaint and the magistrate dismissed mine.  He specifically instructed us he didn't want to see us back except for a long term fix.  I understood that to mean a divorce case.  Well, I had been living for 3 months as alternate weekend dad.  So there we were, no orders.  My spouse immediately told me she would only let me see our preschooler henceforth if I agreed to supervised visitation.  Of course I declined.  Since she didn't have a regular workplace or regular hours, I had no way to pick him up such as from school or daycare.  Police were no help, they declined to accompany me to her door to see my son, they told me to come back when I had a court order in hand.  When I asked what they would do if I went alone to see my son, they said they'd come rushing if she called them.  Ouch, I certainly didn't want to get carted away on more false allegations.  So I filed for divorce a month later and the initial hearing was two months later.  So I didn't see my son for 3 months.  Magistrate, the same one, said, "I'll fix that."  I became alternate weekend dad again.  Ex suffered no consequences for 3 months of blocking.  I didn't get any make-up time.

If you're Accepting that you need to file for divorce, then go ahead and start that process while the emergency order is still in place, that way the parenting schedule won't lapse as it did in my case.

I hope he will get a diagnosis. He has been in therapy for about 3 months - I made contact with the therapist when he began making suicide threats and his family dismissed my request for help. His therapist reached out to me, said he hadn't been honest. Only promising thing is, he chose her randomly and she specializes in DBT, so if he wanted to seek treatment, she could help. He also sought multiple appointments this week after being served.

Do you realize that most people with BPD (pwBPD), at least those as posted by our members on this board, don't seriously try to improve?  The fact is that a few sessions do not fix a lifetime pattern of behaviors.  So if he claims a quick fix, don't trust it.  The person has to set aside the Denial, Blaming and Blame Shifting... .apply the therapy and insight to life, thinking, perceptions and behaviors... .and continue for (most likely) years before the other parent can be confident the progress toward recovery is real.

Since (1) he clearly has not improved over the years despite your best efforts and (2) demonstrable progress often isn't possible to ascertain within months then divorce is a practical solution.  If he claims he will change then you can leave open the possibility of remarriage at some future time but for now you have no other choice.

One of our most prolific posters some 5-10 years ago was JoannaK.  She wrote that if persons do work to attain some recovery from BPD then they would not be the same persons as before and there was a real possibility the relationship would not survive or be restarted, one or both had changed that much.

Beware of saying he's a good father.  As you described, raging at you in front of the children is not good at all.  Those don't match.  So when giving any testimony, make sure you are consistent.  An opposing lawyer might claim you're inconsistent in testimony and move for dismissal.  My ex's lawyer also tried to make me appear a Controller.  He asked if I wanted my ex back (intimation: back under my control) but I said, "No, not the way she is."

Our most recommended handbook for divorce preparation is Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by William Eddy & Randi Kreger.  It is a must-read for any high conflict divorce.  One of the first points it emphasizes is that not just any lawyer is up to the daunting task.  You need a proactive, experienced lawyer, one who can do far more than prepare forms and hold hands.  If your lawyer isn't up to arguing repeated hearings in court and proficient at trials, then you need to search for one who is.

[PersistNeverless]

After 12 years and many explosive rage episodes, last week when our 3 year old was put in an untenable situation I filed for and was granted a TRO. My husband is undiagnosed and I only just learned about BPD a few weeks ago. But it was akin to putting on glasses, my whole world became clear. When my husband learned about the TRO he went off the rails, threatened suicide if he was served (said if he saw a police office, he would take their gun and put it in his mouth) and ultimately had to be taken out of the house in handcuffs. I'm now approaching the hearing to make the order permanent (well for a year) and I'm struggling with some things. He has been a devoted father, loves his kids and is very involved in their lives. He was the stay at home parent for all of our kids for their first 15 months (this coinciding with job losses due to work place behavior that made others fearful and uncomfortable).

Do I really need an order if my upwBPD agrees to contact only regarding the children?

What kind of contact should I be seeking for my kids? I've always been his trigger, but when things explode and I try to diffuse by leaving the immediate situation, he has no issues talking to my 3 year old directly and telling her things like "Mommy wants to take you away from me" "Mommy is breaking up are family" "Mommy doesn't love you". Now, I believe a lot of those comments are directed at me, however now that I've taken a stand, he will not be seeing them everyday and I don't know how, even if I'm not there, that he doesn't still struggle with that issue and project these feelings on my kids without me there to know. He also made some serious threats of suicide and was unwilling to be served the TRO and had to be taken out of the house in handcuffs.

I believe what would be best for our kids is to maintain visitation in our home. They are comfortable there, they have everything they need. Has anyone had an arrangement whereby they switch out time in the marital residence - has that been successful?

I can't even explain how overwhelmed I feel. And today is my birthday. What a year this will be.

[Radcliff]

Do I really need an order if my upwBPD agrees to contact only regarding the children?

Yes.

Even though you've seen this professionally, the emotional forces at work here are powerful.  You want to preserve the benefits of his fatherhood for your daughter, that is understandable.  Move cautiously and slowly.  Very slowly, like over months.  Re-doing protections that have been undone is difficult, and you can find yourself in a dangerous situation.  I served a restraining order on my wife.  It was awful.  The idea that days after he threatened to take an officer's gun and kill himself, and was led out of the house in handcuffs, you want to undo the restraining order -- that makes total sense to me that you would feel that way.  I've been there.  It's super tough.  Resist the urge.  Don't go on a promise of future good behavior.  Go on completely demonstrated healthy behavior, over a long period.

Who do you have supporting you?  I know you may be reluctant to do this, but can you figure out who the best domestic violence advocate in the county is and go talk to him or her?  You need local support.  Don't let your feelings for your husband or professional embarrassment prevent you from getting the support you need.  Don't let yourself be isolated.

How are you feeling about the marriage?  If you take your daughter out of the picture (assume for the purposes of my question that she has a good relationship with both parents no matter what happens), would you want to give the marriage a go, or get a divorce?

WW

[ForeverDad]

Move cautiously and slowly.  Very slowly, like over months.  Re-doing protections that have been undone is difficult, and you can find yourself in a dangerous situation.  I served a restraining order on my wife.  It was awful.  The idea that days after he threatened to take an officer's gun and kill himself, and was led out of the house in handcuffs, you want to undo the restraining order -- that makes total sense to me that you would feel that way.  I've been there.  It's super tough.  Resist the urge.  Don't go on a promise of future good behavior.  Go on completely demonstrated healthy behavior, over a long period.

I can name a wonderful quality that we Nice Guys and Nice Gals have that can literally sabotage us in these High Conflict situations... .our otherwise wonderful sense of Fairness.  We fear not giving the benefit of the doubt to our misbehaving spouse.  We don't want the children to suffer the loss of a parent, even one behaving in scary ways.  We want everything all better, we can't imagine our dreams and hopes are really shattered.

Sadly, the fact is that's not "What Is".  Your spouse has behaved so badly that you had to get protection.  So things have gotten worse over time, right?  And nothing else you tried had worked, right?  Do you really convince yourself that over more time he won't behave worse if left to his own behavior patterns, eventually, with regard to the children?  Ponder that.

I called emergency services when my ex threatened my life, both before the call and afterward.  Fortunately I could discern her growing rage that day and it was recorded.  However, the speaker didn't work, I think the headphone jack was messed up, and no one heard it that day.  The officers spoke more with her than with me.  Then when one came to me, he asked me to pass my preschooler (quietly sobbing in my arms) to his mother and "step away".  Months later my lawyer's comments about that day connected the dots for me, that I was about to be carted away, perhaps even being arrested.  He said the police officers' first priority is to defuse the immediate situation, in my area that's taking away one of the spouses.  Well, when I tried to comply, my 3yo son screeched and clung tighter to me.  My spouse was just fuming at me.  I turned to the officer and shrugged as though "I tried."  He stared at me for a long moment, said "work it out" and they left.  I now say, My son saved me that day.

When I did get the sound file downloaded (in those days Olympus required their software to copy it to computer) I had an officer come out to listen to it.  Only partway through it he said, That's enough, I have enough for a report.  However, I made him listen to the rest.  I wanted him to hear the rest, another "I will kill you" after she grabbed the handset, threw it and broke it, how angry and cold she was to our preschooler who was crying.

Want to know some advice he gave me?  He warned me that too often in these situations the victim making the report withdraws the complaint and the legal system never gets to address the incident.  He specifically told me to not back down, water it down or let my spouse off the hook.  That would be hurting myself - and it would fix nothing and soon it would get bad again or worse.

Now, about his threat to commit suicide by an officer's gun.  There are two possible reasons... .(1) he is seriously contemplating suicide or - IMHO much more likely since I didn't notice you saying he had actually attempted suicide before - (2) he tried to intimidate you or scare you into retreating into prior compliant or acquiescent patterns, a typical Control/Manipulation maneuver.

However, him making that threat to harm himself should be taken seriously.  I think any professional would be cautious about granting him unsupervised parenting time.  Or maybe they would, IDK.  My point is that YOU should be very concerned about him having unsupervised visits with the kids, at least until he gets a Psych Eval, perhaps at least a few supervised visits where a supervisor can monitor and report how it went.  Yes, you may think this is extreme, but CAUTION is the word now.

A common pattern with people exhibiting acting out PD behaviors is that the behaviors worsen and expand to others over time.  If he does not make demonstrable improvement in his thinking and attitudes by diligently applying meaningful therapy (DBT or similar is the best available) then there is real concern that at some point he will do to the kids what he has done to you.

I have no clue where I'm at in my mind about divorce (I most definitely should divorce him, but am still in denial and still hopeful he's the exception to BPD, will magically see this as rock bottom and get the help he obviously needs. Even then, it would take months, if not years.

As for divorce, you already know in your head what you should do.   It's your heart that hasn't caught up.  Give it time.  After all, you've surely advised others facing similar situations.  Step outside yourself, picture you with a prospective client relating to you what few details you've shared here in peer support, what would you advise that woman?  You mired in the thick of a distressing situation, time to start seeing things more objectively, less subjectively.

Meanwhile, don't let your emotions sabotage what you logically know has to be done.  You've had 12 years together, a roller coaster.  It has just stopped at the station.  The fun and joy is long gone, don't you think it's time to get off while it's the right time?

I suspect your temp order includes the kids, right?  Let that stand until he gets a psych eval and recommendations are made by the evaluators, counselors, whomever.  Meanwhile, be cautious, supervised visitation is appropriate, at least until you all know how things are going.

And you know that him coming to your residence for visits probably won't work.  It blurs the line between your home and his home, which is what will have to be if/when the separation becomes a divorce.  As WW wrote above, don't Gift Away any solid protections and safeguards that you just obtained.  If court does it, well, that's on the court.  But don't you Gift Away.  You know your good intentions won't be sincerely reciprocated.

Another final thought... .Don't be your own lawyer.  You know good ones, proactive, able to handle tough cases, consult with and hire one, probably has to be one who your spouse hasn't ever had professional consultations with?  You know the old saying, for doctors and surely lawyers too, the lawyer who represents himself/herself has a fool for a client.  Let another lawyer you trust to be an expert take care of the legal stuff so it's not all on your shoulders.  And stick with your counseling sessions.  Nothing to be ashamed of.  You know courts love counseling.

[ForeverDad]

Many (most?) here report that their ex was never diagnosed.  So far as I know, my ex (we separated in 2005, divorced 2006-2008, last time in court 2013) has never been diagnosed.  Court studiously avoided any diagnostic labels, it focused on the behaviors, well, what focus it gave.  I recall that our custody evaluator (an excellent one) stated bluntly in my first session, "I'm not here to diagnose anyone, my task is to make a recommendation to the court for custody and parenting issues."

If you do get a diagnosis, fine.  But what you really need in an evaluation is how it impacts you and the children.  A diagnostic label is a start but not the complete solution.