Need help dealing with someone who has BPD

[Opwon]

I have a family member who seems to fit the description of a person with BPD.  She has 2 young children. Her husband of 10 years has finally decided to give up on her.  Over the last 2 months he has been progressively distancing himself from her.  He is at a point now that he is scared to even talk to her.  She has made threats to call the authorities on him or other blackmail such as running away from home.  That has in-turn made her worse.  Now we are keeping her in our home while she gets therapy.  She refuses to take any medications citing that they make her dead inside.

Somedays she seems fine.  But most days she is full of paranoia, delusions and anger around her husband and sibling.  She also often projects.  Logic never prevails with her (I believe it's not supposed to with someone who has BPD).  Facts against her delusions or paranoia only leads to rage and anger.

I listen as much as possible to her but it's very exhausting on my patience.  Her chatter is full of contradictions and delusions and she will talk non-stop for hours.  One way I feel we can't agree with her all the time because that will be perpetuating her delusional thoughts.  On the other hand if we challenge her then it leads to anger or rage.

She constantly wants and needs one of the three(including her husband) of us to acknowledge and listen to her.  Even though, she's not living with her husband now she will constantly text or call him.  Out of fear he doesn't respond. Otherwise she gets frustrated and paranoid as to why we don't listen to her.

The therapists haven't been helpful to us on how to handle and manage her.

I've read about setting boundaries and limits but don't know how to do it.

My purpose of joining this group is to first of all not feel alone in this.  This has been a very draining 3 weeks. I feel like I have no control over myself on how to handle her.  Please share your experiences on how you have been able to deal with someone with similar behavior patterns.

Finally, is there hope?  Even if it is for us to learn to deal and manage her then her ever getting better.

Thanks in advance!

[Harri]

Hello and welcome to the board.  Yes, there is hope!  You can improve things for yourself by learning about boundaries, what they are, how to set them and how to enforce them.  We can help you with that here.  It sounds like boundaries are going to be the best tool for you to learn first.  Also, learning about the behaviors of a pwBPD (person with BPD) can be very helpful in terms of understanding what is driving the behaviors and depersonalizing them.  No one can say if your pwBPD will get better.  They have to recognize and admit they have a problem and be willing to get help.  Therapy can take a long time as well.  Regardless you can make things easier for yourself as you try to navigate a more workable relationship.

Can I ask how long your pwBPD will be living with you?  It is not easy to support someone going through a tough marriage and on top of that having to deal with disordered behavior makes it even more difficult.  How are the kids managing?  Are they staying with you as well? 

If you had to pick one behavior you would like to set a boundary around what would it be?  perhaps how long the conversations are?  yelling at you?  Lets see what we can work on with you for learning about boundaries and how to set them.  We can bounce ideas around.

In the meantime, I hope you feel comfortable enough to settle in and read and post.  We are all very supportive and friendly and can relate to many aspects of your situation.  We have a huge library full of information that we can refer you to as well.  I just don't want to overload you with a bunch of links just yet... .soon though! 

[Opwon]

Thank you Harri.

pwBPD has been living with us for 3 weeks now.  Her children are living with her husband.  It's hard to say how they are handling it. They seem to miss their mother especially around the time when their father has to be stern or discipline them (i.e to do their homework instead of playing on the phone).

I do believe learning as much as I can about BPD and specifically about what is driving her behavior can help.  I know she has abandonment issues.  She has subtly admitted as much.  I can mostly tell that her behavior is a result of these underlying issues.  But so far it hasn't helped.  I need a break from the incessant and illogical chatter.  Especially when it centers around her husband.

Her husband is one of my best friends and I have a lot of respect for him.  So I'm also having a tough time dealing with her constant berating, her projecting herself on to him and all the suspicions she has of him.  It's very difficult not to get emotional when I know all of them to abjectly false.

She(pwBPD) is kind of back and forth admitting that she has a problem.  She is going to therapy so I think she feels that what is happening to her and how she behaves is not normal.  At the same time she also is adamant that what she thinks is normal and similar to everyone else.  She just happens to share her thoughts.  Note: She says this when she's in defensive mode.

The one behavior I would like to set boundary around is for her to not feel the need to share her thoughts as soon as she has them.  This is interfering with my work. I have my own family and business to attend to. I've asked her numerous times courteously to set aside a time later in the day to review her thoughts.  She seems to understand and also empathizes with me but then goes back to doing the same.  I've been a hesitant to push back because when I do that she switches to either her husband or her sibling.  When they don't respond or respond favorably to her then anger sets in.

[Harri]

Hello

They seem to miss their mother especially around the time when their father has to be stern or discipline them (i.e to do their homework instead of playing on the phone).

I have to smile here... .that sounds about right.  Frustrating though and certainly makes the current situation more difficult. 

I need a break from the incessant and illogical chatter.  Especially when it centers around her husband.

Her husband is one of my best friends and I have a lot of respect for him.  So I'm also having a tough time dealing with her constant berating, her projecting herself on to him and all the suspicions she has of him.  It's very difficult not to get emotional when I know all of them to abjectly false.

Yes, that does sound very difficult and stressful.  I would not like it either and to have it be a frequent part of my day?  Ugh.

The one behavior I would like to set boundary around is for her to not feel the need to share her thoughts as soon as she has them.  This is interfering with my work. I have my own family and business to attend to. I've asked her numerous times courteously to set aside a time later in the day to review her thoughts.  She seems to understand and also empathizes with me but then goes back to doing the same.  I've been a hesitant to push back because when I do that she switches to either her husband or her sibling.  When they don't respond or respond favorably to her then anger sets in.

I understand your desire to protect your friend and her sibling.  It is quite kind but (!) it is causing problems for you.  It is not okay to be used as a garbage can for all of the negative thoughts.  It is okay to tell her to stop, to end the conversation politely but firmly.  She will get upset.  If she is not used to being told no, this will be hard for her to accept.  She will get angry.  let her.  If she calls her husband or her sibling, she calls them and it is up to them to deal with it.  It might help if you tell them that you will no longer be listening so they can maybe get on the same page, but that too is their choice.  I am not sure my idea of telling your friend and her sibling is a wise move though.  Lets see what other people have to say about that part.

I make this sound easy and cut and dried but it is anything but.  I know that.  Unfortunately, if you want her to stop and you begin to set boundaries she will push back.  Expect her to get angry.  Sometimes the behaviors can get worse.  This is called extinction burst where over time you will see a temporary increase in the behavior you want to have stop.  The key is to stick with your boundary no matter how much she pushes you.  They will keep going back to their behavior trying harder and harder to get you to respond they way they want you to.  Once you begin to set a boundary you must stick with it, be consistent and not waver otherwise you get into something called intermittent reinforcement (described in the second post of the thread on extinction bursts that I linked above) which will strengthen the unwanted behavior. 

A lot of times people will hesitate with boundaries because the other person gets upset... .but there is really no way to avoid that nor is it your place to try to control that.  Of course be polite and firm but do not waver.   There is no way to tell her that she can't say everything that pops into her head as it pops into her head and not have her get upset.  She needs to learn to self-regulate rather than have you walk on eggshells in an attempt to keep her for getting angry or reacting.

Is the above info helpful?

[Opwon]

Thanks again for the advice/tips.

Is there any point in trying to get her to understand why she can't use me as a repository for her to thoughts?  Or stick to simply asking her to stop politely?

[Learning2Thrive]

Thanks again for the advice/tips.

Is there any point in trying to get her to understand why she can't use me as a repository for her to thoughts?  Or stick to simply asking her to stop politely?

I think the point is establish healthy boundaries for your own safetyand wellbeing.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

We can’t make anyone else change their behavior. But we can set boundaries around the behaviors we will and won’t accept.

Perhaps others may offer some differing ideas.

L2T

[Opwon]

Thank you L2T for welcoming me to the family.

Had a pretty good & bad family therapy session with our pwBPD, her Psychiatrist and her sister today. 

First the bad... .

Our pwBPD still refuses to take meds to help her with anxiety and racing thoughts.  This according to the therapist.  As a result her insurance found her decision to be "non-compliant" and will no longer cover her individual therapy or family therapy.  They will however, cover 2 1.5hrs group therapy sessions a day.  That's all!  I understand why they are doing this but seems cruel.  The insurance company is treating her like a normal person!

Back to pwBPD When questioned why she doesn't want to take meds she said (this is quite unbelievable) that she did take her meds but stopped them a year ago.  When she was taking her meds everyone around her seemed happy with her.  She was looking good.  She "put on make up".  But she felt that none of that was truly her.  I wanted to record her at that time and play it back to her to see if she actually can hear herself talk.  I'm not even sure if this is BPD!

How can she not realize that when she was on meds she was normal?  This seems like complete non-sense to me!

Her Sister has less hope now if she will ever recover.  My mind is jumping between the same thought and whether we can take care of her long term and how she can manage without anyone's help.  Our hope is that she'll heal and get back to her family.  She doesn't have the financial means to be independent.  She doesn't have a job.  She thinks shelter or some ashram is her salvation!  Both are threats but she has walked out on us claiming to go to one of these places.

The good... .

With the help of the therapist we were able to understand and explain to the pwBPD that we feel nervous about what we say to her(This is also the same feeling her husband has and will no longer talk to her).  We feel anything we say can trigger anger or rage in her.  pwBPD said that her anger is aimed at her husband and not us.  And that she didn't care if we offended her.  But she has walked out of our home when we refused to acknowledge her text messages and insisted that she come and talk to us in person.  Confused by her reaction on this.  But I feel like I have better clarity on how to set some boundaries with her.  We plan to do that when she is not angry.

[Harri]

Hi and thanks for the update.  It is unfortunate about the insurance.  I am not familiar with how to deal with that or what steps can be taken but I know that some of the people on the Son/Daughter board have been through similar fights with insurance companies so you may want to try asking on that board for any input  Here is the link: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=4.0  If you do post there just say that I recommended you ask as they may have more experience with that particular topic. 

One of the problems with pwBPD is that they can change what they think based on their feelings.  So it is not surprising to me that she will say one thing in therapy but act an entirely different way when angry.  They are not always consistent as feelings = facts and there is so much emotional dysregulation.

As for the medication issue, again, it is not uncommon for people to not be compliant with treatment.  Apart from the insurance issue, people will report they don't feel like themselves when they are on meds or, with some disorders, when they are feeling good, they think they don't need them.  It is very frustrating. 

The thing to remember is that with BPD they mean what they say when they say it... .it just may change.  So if she says yes, I need therapy, she may later deny it.  it is not necessarily manipulative as it is true for *her*.

Do you want to talk about how you will set boundaries here?  Remember, she may agree, but not follow through.  However, boundaries are about you and how you will respond and don't really require her to agree.  You simply take action based on the boundary you set.

does that make sense?

[Harri]

I thought of you and your situation when I came across this article this morning.  The principles involved apply to any kind of relationship with a pwBPD, not just romantic ones.  I hope it helps:

The Do's and Don'ts in a BPD Relationship

[Opwon]

Thank you Harri.

It's been almost a week since we had a group therapy session with pwBPD's therapist.  We discussed boundaries then and our pwBPD has not been her usual needy self.  There was an instance when she did call to have me conference her husband into our call but I courteously and firmly pushed back and she backed off.  Other than that there hasn't even been much of an interaction with me, her sibling or any attempted interactions with her husband.

Let's see, I'm hoping she's recognizing her limits our boundaries.

I will post the issue with insurance in the other board you mentioned.

Thank you for your help.

[Harri]

Hi!  I am glad things have quieted down for all of you.  It sounds like such a tough situation and it is wonderful how hard you are trying to help your friend.

but I courteously and firmly pushed back and she backed off.

Excellent!  Stick with this.  As you do more with boundaries it will be come easier and almost second nature.

Thanks for the update.

[BabyButterfly]

Hi Opwon. I'm sorry you're having to deal with this situation. My sister who may have BPD lived with me for over a year, while I struggled with trying to sort out my feelings of guilt and responsibility for taking care of her. I can't help but notice when you are discussing boundaries, your goal seems to be to change her feelings or behavior. Can you radically accept her as she is right now, without needing to change anything about her, and establish boundaries you need for YOU? When you say she "wasn't her needy self" that seems like you are judging her for being needy, or that your boundary might be that you require her not to "be needy." You also asked if there was any hope of getting her to understand why she "should not" express everything she is thinking and feeling to you.

She has a right to be in the world the way she is, and she has a right to be needy, and there is no universal moral principle that says she can't express herself the way that she has been. The problem is not that she is WRONG. The problem is (I believe) that it's tiring for you and interrupting your routine. So, no, you don't need to get her to understand why she "should not" do the things she's doing. Another person might be ok with the ongoing dialogue. She is doing the best she can. You can figure out what you need to cope with the situation without making it a project to fix or heal her.

I was in therapy for many years (graduated now), and my therapist happens to be an expert in BPD. The patients that other therapists couldn't handle, she took in to her practice. She said that at one time she had sixteen patients with BPD in her practice. She is a ninja with boundaries, and she helped me a lot with learning better boundaries myself and understanding people with BPD. One day, when we were talking about a really difficult pwBPD in my life, I asked if they can get better. She said that they can heal, and feel better, but they tend to continue having the behaviors that cause them problems in the relationship. It is really important to accept the pwBPD as they are and not have expectations or goals for them to change. It takes a really long time, and the change you see may not be what YOU want for them.

It is not your job to take care of your adult relative. You are not responsible for her. At one point you mentioned that the insurance company is treating her like a "normal person." They are correct to do so. You also can have limits and consequences with her just like with anyone else. You don't have to shelter or protect her. I learned this through dealing with my sister. I supported her in my home for over a year, and I cared for her emotionally, too. With the help of my individual therapist and a couples therapist (because my sister's presence in my home was a strain on my marriage), I finally asked my sister to move out. You would think this time would have strengthened our relationship, but she only seems to resent me more the more I have helped her, and tbh providing her that much help was probably a huge mistake. In my experience, every time I helped my sister, she would end up lashing out at me for not doing more. Do not make sacrifices for a pwBPD hoping for any kind of payoff or reward. Only do it with the expectation of getting nothing, or less than nothing. They may well punish you for your kindness.

Good luck and take care.