Just need to vent

[Woodchuck]

I just need to get some stuff out.  I feel completely empty and broken.  My W just left to go 'out'.  She spent 2 hours getting dressed up and looked amazing.  I could smell the perfume that she hasn't worn in I don't know how long.  Why is this a big deal?  Probably because I am making it a big deal and letting it get to me.  Last week, she told me that if I loved her then I would accept and respect everything that she wants.  I asked her if it was just a one way thing because I didn't feel like she accepted or respected anything I wanted (yes I know that was not the best response).  Her response was that she doesn't claim to love me.  That conversation combined with the fact that she has not kissed me in months, refuses to have anything to do with me and her actions today are gut wrenching.  I really just wish she would go away!  I am tired of being hurt!

WC

[Cat Familiar]

I'm so sorry, Woodchuck. I know how hard you've been trying to make things better.   

It certainly seems like she expects everything to be a one-way street with you and to not have to reciprocate. Hearing that had to hurt.   

Perhaps that gives you an insight into how she thinks and though you still love her, you certainly don't love how she's treating you.

[Red5]

She spent 2 hours getting dressed up and looked amazing.  I could smell the perfume that she hasn't worn in I don't know how long. 

I remember this from my first marraige... .I know how that feels Woodchuck, sorry Brother, hang in there!

Red5

[Coastered]

I know how you feel, from wonderful love when they cannot keep their hands off you to someone they just do not want to kiss or touch.

Yet they make 'all this effort' to go out which they do not make for you.

I know how it feels, you are not alone.

Saying she does not claim to love you is a very hurtful thing to say, I believe it is designed to elicit a response.  Regardless it is a very mean and hurtful thing to say and should have no place in a marriage.

[Notwendy]

Last week, she told me that if I loved her then I would accept and respect everything that she wants.


From your posts, your wife makes statements that are not realistic and also when I read them, some of them are absurd. You don't have to accept what is absurd to you. If she told you " If you loved me you would accept that there are little green people from Mars eating cookies on the roof" would that hurt you? or would you think " this is absurd? ".


People can say whatever they want to us, but we have to use our filters ( boundaries ) when considering their words.

I used to buy into this stuff. "If you loved me, you would have bought my favorite food at the grocery store " Reality- they were out of it, and this doesn't have anything to do with whether I love you or not.  When people feel that feelings are facts, the feeling is a fact in the moment. If you buy into it as fact, and try to do it, it's like chasing a unicorn.

With a dysfunctional person- you need to hold on to your reality, or you will lose your sense of self.

Let's think about this statement:

Last week, she told me that if I loved her then I would accept and respect everything that she wants.


What if someone wants drugs? Does loving them mean you accept and respect that?

What if someone wants to have an affair- Does loving them mean you accept and respect that?

What if someone wants to spend the family budget on a sports car that would put the family in debt?

I think you get my point - this is about boundaries. Now, you can't control what someone else does, but if they violate your boundaries, you don't have to accept and respect that.

I understand that seeing her go out and make this effort is hurtful. Not loving you is hurtful, but you don't have to have to accept and respect everything she wants or does if it doesn't fit your values.

[Notwendy]

What do you have to accept and respect? You don't have to respect someone's decisions or feel they are acceptable to you--- but we do have to respect and accept that a person is an autonomous individual who can make their own decisions. Even in marriage, each person is an individual. We can't really control another person- all we can do is control our responses to that.

Some are minor. A spouse likes shoes. You think they have too many shoes. But if they buy them out of their own budget, then you can overlook that. If there is no money for food for the family because they bought shoes instead, you have an issue.

Some are major- a spouse is doing illegal drugs. You don't have to accept or respect that, but you have to respect that they have free will to make this choice and accept the reality that they make this choice. What you can control is your reaction to this. Is this a deal breaker for the relationship? Can you co-exist with this? That is up to you to decide.

Your wife says this to you:  she doesn't claim to love me.  She has not kissed me in months, refuses to have anything to do with me. You do need to respect her right to make this choice. You can not make her love you, or even receive the love you have for her. You don't have to consider this to be acceptable in a marriage. The choice is what to do about it? One option is divorce, but I don't think this is the only option in a marriage. Sometimes resentments can displace love in a marriage. One option is to explore that through counseling ( for you- not her if she isn't interested ) and see if there are ways to make a change, reduce the conflict and drama until either of you are ready to make the  step of dissolving the marriage. If she is certain she wants to leave, then she has the right to make that choice. So do you if that is what you decide.


I really just wish she would go away!  I am tired of being hurt!
I understand- it is hurtful to be married to someone who you feel isn't treating you the way you wish. The things she says to you are hurtful. How do you respond to this? With strength and holding on to your reality and a focus on you- not her.

I loved her then I would accept and respect everything that she wants  " I respect your right to make your own choices"  Then, you make yours.

I think one issue underlying her resentment is the affair you had. I think you have done the best anyone could to atone for that. You have not repeated it, you have done counseling. I know couples who have survived infidelity but it took a lot of work for both people to regain the trust. Once the person who cheated has shown remorse, corrected their behavior ,and not repeated it again, there isn't much else one can do to "undo" the offense. The other person has to choose to accept that the person has done all they can do and learn to forgive (not forget) and determine that it isn't worth dissolving the relationship over. They need to be able to manage their resentments. The question is- can your wife do this? If not, then you can choose how long you wish to keep trying or when is enough enough. You can also answer accusations with strength " you cheated on me" "yes, I did cheat, and I have made every effort I can to try to repair this" No JADE, no apology- just the facts and let her manage that.

[Woodchuck]

NotWendy-
Thank you for all your input!  I would find it absurd if she told me that I must accept that there are little green people from Mars eating cookies on the roof.  I don’t think I would find it hurtful at all.  May be a bit amusing.  I think you are spot on regarding boundaries and I have had very poor boundaries for a long time.  The poor boundaries are what led to my affair.  As far as ‘making’ her love me, I don’t want that.  The current situation feels like a double edged sword.  I am living with someone that has a huge amount of resentment towards me but claims they don’t.  Having her treat me the way she does while just existing on my dime really hurts.  I am perfectly ok with her resenting me and moving.  I am also perfectly ok with her living with me and me supporting her.  What I am not ok with is the two combined.  Does it hurt to have her resent me and me seemingly not being able to do anything about it?  Of course, it hurts a lot but I have resigned myself to the fact that this will not change.  On that note, she wrote me a letter a few months ago and gave it to me again this weekend.  In this letter she stated:
‘I am not angry nor have I any unforgiveness toward you for your unfaithfulness.  I have unmet needs/wants that block us from moving forward.  I have to realize that the pain of what occurred will likely never go away.  It is imperative that you be able to accept that pain and be able to stand in it with me with empathy and understanding.  I am aware that this is difficult for you and the main reason you have had difficulty with this this is because it brings you shame and other emotions that are unpleasant.  That is not my intent.  For me, if you cannot accept my pain and step into it, accept it, there will be no way for us to truly connect and move forward.  Honestly I am afraid to even try to share my hurt with you or let you have any closeness to me.  I have come to a point where I recognize and accept that our relationship may not ever recover and I am ok with that.  I will continue to put our children’s needs ahead of my own for as long as I can safely do so.  If you wish to work on being able to accept and acknowledge the pain your unfaithfulness has brought and brings with empathy and understanding, care and concern for me consistently without excuses or focus on you, maybe we can work towards healing that could bring change to our relationship.  I will not engage in arguments or unproductive conversation that does not lead to resolution.  I will walk away from, turn my back on and disengage from all such forms of negative communication.’

I asked her to explain what her unmet needs or wants were.  She first said they were pretty simple but then when I asked again, she told me she could not explain them to me, to ask my T.  I asked her what she needed for me to do to ‘step into her pain and stand it with her’ etc and she gave me the same response.  I did as she requested and took the letter to my T, knowing full well what she was going to tell me.  She could not tell me what to do because she has not ever met my W and even if she had, she could not tell me what my W needed.  I relayed this message to my W and she shrugged it off.  We had almost the exact same conversation this weekend.  I don’t understand how she can expect needs to be met if she is not specific.  I told her that I could wake up every morning and apologize for my affair and again apologize every night to meet her need.  She stated that is not what she needs and would do no good.  I explained that this is why I need her to be specific.  I told her that I have spent years trying to figure it out and I have not been even remotely successful and that I cannot do it on my own.  Her response was to tell me that it is my problem, not hers.  Is that true?  No, it is not true.  I have been open to anything but she will not speak in anything other than generalities. 
She brought up the Affair Recovery class again as well and told me that going to that was the only way there would be any any hope and that I am showing how much I care by refusing to go.  I am not refusing to go.  I simply told her that I would be willing to go but that she would need to pay for it.  I also told her that if it proved to be beneficial, I would be willing to reimburse her the whole amount for the class but she refuses.  I believe that this is just a ploy for control as she refused to entertain going to the Gottman seminar that I suggested. 

I have been reading the Passionate Marriage book that someone here suggested and it has been quite eye opening.  For the past several months, if there has been any ‘intimacy’, it has been nothing more than a physical act.  The last few times, I have leaned in to kiss her and she has turned her head away.  I cannot think of much of anything more degrading than your spouse refusing a kiss during sex.  I am sure there are things more degrading but this has made me feel awful.   The Passionate Marriage book describes this as mercy/pity sex where your partner ‘screws’ you two ways by having sex with you and depriving you of the intimacy that you crave.  I have told her that I need intimacy during sex and that I will not settle for less.  If she cannot provide that, no sex is better than feeling the way intimacy free sex makes me feel.  She stated that she has not felt any intimacy for years and has had sex just to meet my needs and I should be grateful.  There should be some kind of ‘afterglow’ or connection during and after sex but instead it is a feeling of emptiness and some kind of ‘dirtiness’ or weird guilt of some sort.

So, boundaries…... where am I now?

I will no longer blindly try to figure out what she needs. 
I will not initiate any sexual activity nor accept it if there is no intimacy.
I will just go about doing what I believe is right and not have it hinged onto what she believes is right.
I will walk away from any conversation where she is being rude or unkind.
I will not allow myself to believe that I need to change who I am for her.


WC

[Woodchuck]

I meant to mention as well that while I agree that there is resentment about my affair, I believe also that it is being used as a crutch to not address deeper issues.  Our relationship was not good at all prior to my affair.  If we had a 'picture perfect' marriage and I had the affair, I would agree with that being the core issue but with the affair happening because I believed our marriage was about to be over tells me that there are much deeper issues that must be addressed and using the affair as a crutch to not address those is not beneficial.

WC

[formflier]

It's not about you finding out what she needs... .it's "likely" about the conversations that go nowhere... .the issues that come back again and again and aren't solved.

Less is more.

Seriously... waaaay less is more.

She wants to go on a weekend thing about the affair... watching stars... .or hunting bison.  You are ready... sounds great.

Nothing else needs to be said or discuss... .let her know you trust her to handle the details.

All the other stuff is bickering.

FF

[Notwendy]

Woodchuck- I am not an expert on marital affairs, but I have two friends who repaired theirs after one. One friend ( female, the one who was cheated on ) said she had to also look at her contribution to the issue- rather than only be the "victim". I think in many situations, the marriage had issues before the affair- which led up to the affair. ( I think some people are just serial cheaters- sex addict types and that is something different- these were not that kind ). However, I also heard that the cheating spouse needs to take 100% responsibility for the cheating. Basically each person needs to be responsible for their part in the deteriorating marriage.

Here is my take on the situation. Your marriage had issues before your affair and your wife had BPD before your affair. I think there is a core pain with people with BPD. They project that pain on to others, and it is my personal observation that they tend to take victim mode- they see others as the cause of that pain- as other people may trigger it (unintentionally) but the source of that pain is with them. There were issues where you triggered her pain before the affair, and had you not had it, there would be reasons for you triggering her pain after that. Add this to normal married life- you know we all cause our spouses distress at times- argue, disagree, make a minor ( compared to cheating) mistake. Couples have ways to resolve these things with each other, but when there is a pain in a person that is constantly triggered by the spouse, it isn't resolved by these ways because the pain comes from somewhere else.

Your problem is that, you gave her a real pain source- a good  reason to be angry, resentful, and hurt and it becomes the target for her pain. The perfect reason for people to understand - and so you gave her a "normal" reason to be very upset. This was real pain and a major trigger for her own pain. I don't know if she can resolve this or not considering that BPD makes it difficult to do that, and that - there is a payoff to having such a reason- so there may not be motivation on her part to repair it.

I have ( thankfully ) not dealt with infidelity. I know, were it to happen on my part, my H would not ever get over it. It's a deal breaker for him. I know that I have my own deal breakers too. There are things I would not accept in a marriage. I think this is about boundaries.

Is this a deal breaker for her?

[Woodchuck]

FF- I agree that less is more.  I think I am slowly working my way to that. 

Notwendy- Is it a dealbreaker for her?  That is a very good question.  With the fact that 12 years have passed, I don't know that I could classify it as a dealbreaker.  I am really not sure what to classify it as.  Prior to the affair, the issue was my parents and how I was too close to them and needed to 'leave and cleave'.  It almost seems that she needs to have pain to function if that makes sense.  She will just keep going and focusing on the pain until something happens that she does not have control over.  She told me this weekend when talking about the affair recovery seminar that I needed to be willing to 'do the work required' in order to make things work.  I feel like I have been working my tail off for over a decade to 'do the work'.  Not once have I ever made an excuse or blamed her for any of it.  I honestly do not believe our relationship would be any better/worse if the affair was not in the picture.  If it was not the affair, it would be something else.  I don't say that the minimize anything.  I realize that infidelity causes a great deal of pain.  I had two girlfriends cheat on me so I do have an idea of the pain caused.  I am sure it is a bit different when you have been married for several years.  As you said, it is about boundaries and I have not ever had good boundaries and have followed her 'lead'.  She has never accepted 'no' well from anyone so it has been kind of a coping mechanism, though not a healthy one to try to appease her.  I am starting to set more firm boundaries and I believe that is setting her off more but I feel stronger doing so. 

WC

[Notwendy]

I think you are probably correct about the affair just being the focus of reason at hand for her underlying unhappiness.

If you feel you have done all you can do to repair it, one option is to just refuse to discuss it. She can bring this up over and over again as her pain projection and the two of you could have endless circular arguments and discussion that would not lead to resolution because the issue is not you but her own pain. However the constant discussions are a form of self soothing for her- if she can continue to project on to you she will do it.

That's a boundary ( maybe a scary one for you). "Wife - I have made amends for this affair and although I feel sad that this isn't enough for you, I have done all I am willing ( important as if you said all I can she could argue that -willing is your decision). I don't wish to discuss this further. "

Then you wash, rinse, repeat. Yes, she may threaten to leave you but I think you've heard that before. I don't know what the future of your marriage will be, but you can choose to end this circular discussion by not participating in it.

[Woodchuck]

Notwendy-
I think that the combination of what you and FF have said, is helping me clear the cobwebs in my head.  I tend to probably use more words than needed.  I have drafted an email kind of saying what you suggested, though you phrased it much better.  I had added in there that I really want her to be happy and care about her but thinking about it more, that is just opening the door for her to 'attack'.  I guess I kind of feel trapped in the sense that if I leave that part out, then I get attacked for only caring about me.  The same goes for other 'boundaries' that I have contemplated such as turning off her phone etc.  I leave it on and keep supporting her financially and she attacks me by telling me she doesn't need anything from me but if I do start pulling financial support then I get attacked for being controlling etc.  I know I am the one that needs to make the decisions but they are very perplexing to say the least.  I really do appreciate the input and will continue to try to develop what I need to tell her.  It is scary in a sense but so is continuing in the same circular discussion and I think it is really going to take a bit to break that cycle.

WC

[Cat Familiar]

Hi Woodchuck,
I think you’re suffering from a case of “niceguyitis”. I had the female version of that condition. It kept me from enacting boundaries that could protect me because I was worried about hurting others’ feelings.

The only cure I found is to embrace one's inner a*holeness. We all have that part and certainly don’t want it to have free uncontrolled expression, but it does need a voice sometimes. And what better way to let it out than with a strong boundary which also protects us.

So if you figure out exactly what boundary you want here—maybe something like I’ve done all I can to atone for my behavior 12 years ago. I’m done talking about it.  

Then just don’t. You’re done. You’re not gonna say another word about it. Over. Done.

Learning to do this and being OK with others being upset/angry with you is unbelievably freeing. And you know, having that overdeveloped superego that you aren’t going to run rampant with this power. You’ll only use it in situations where you’ve thought through the issues very clearly.

So, my advice is to free yourself from these circular conversations that go nowhere, install a hard boundary and keep it.  

Cat

[AskingWhy]

Hi Woodchuck,
I think you’re suffering from a case of “niceguyitis”. I had the female version of that condition. It kept me from enacting boundaries that could protect me because I was worried about hurting others’ feelings.

The only cure I found is to embrace one's inner a*holeness. We all have that part and certainly don’t want it to have free uncontrolled expression, but it does need a voice sometimes. And what better way to let it out than with a strong boundary which also protects us.

So if you figure out exactly what boundary you want here—maybe something like I’ve done all I can to atone for my behavior 12 years ago. I’m done talking about it.  

Then just don’t. You’re done. You’re not gonna say another word about it. Over. Done.

Learning to do this and being OK with others being upset/angry with you is unbelievably freeing. And you know, having that overdeveloped superego that you aren’t going to run rampant with this power. You’ll only use it in situations where you’ve thought through the issues very clearly.

So, my advice is to free yourself from these circular conversations that go nowhere, install a hard boundary and keep it.  

Cat

WC, I agree with Wendy on this.  You are too nice.  You are trying to make sense out of nonsense, and that is impossible.

Just last night, uBPD upended a table and put a hole in a door (the topic of this discussion is irrelevant) on the eve of a business trip.  I am good with him not telling me he arrived safely at the airport or hotel.  I don't know if this is "out of sight, out of mind" (him forgetting me) or if it's a deliberate silent treatment.  Either way, I am not calling him.

I have found that I no longer chase after H when he dysregulates in an attempt to "talk it over," as I will be accused of "making things worse" and wanting to "keep the argument going."

BPDs don't understand this.  When our partners are acting out in full-blown dysregulation, steeped in fear and self-hate, nothing will convince them we want to talk things out for understanding. 

[Cat Familiar]

I have found that I no longer chase after H when he dysregulates in an attempt to "talk it over," as I will be accused of "making things worse" and wanting to "keep the argument going."

BPDs don't understand this.  When our partners are acting out in full-blown dysregulation, steeped in fear and self-hate, nothing will convince them we want to talk things out for understanding. 

Sorry that you’ve endured another “furniture dysregulation” AskingWhy.

I completely agree with you that it is pointless to chase after them to try and talk things over after such an event.

Even after minor dysregulations, if I’ve attempted to initiate a conversation, my husband thinks I intend to shame him, instead of trying to find a peaceful resolution.