Moderation Note:  This thread is a continuation of PART 1 which was locked as it had reached its post limit.  PART 1 is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=328283.0;all


Today I received this from my W:

"I choose never to forget the good times we have had together and the lovely things we have done, the places we have been. Nothing is ever wasted. I always wanted it to work. I wanted nothing more than a happy (realistically happy) family and marriage. I felt it appropriate to say that today (rainbow emoji)."

I feel like replying something like... .but likely wont:

"Only we as individuals are able to ascertain whether or not we did everything possible to provide an environment where 'happy' could be nurtured. Only we have the ability to honestly self reflect on whether or not we fell short in our behaviours and thoughts"

Any thoughts on her message? I have a feeling it's a way of her acknowledging her recollection of the past is changing whilst preserving the narrative i.e. I am recalling a lot of fun times we had together but since I know you have abused me I cannot change my current path.

Because because... .which is why I've not responded... .although is ignoring it invalidating?

I think your response sounds a bit invalidating. It's kinda preachy and also falls into too much heavy stuff via text.

I think it is OK to acknowledge the message- not from the standpoint of whether it will invalidate her or not to not respond but from a general sense of courtesy. It's rude to not respond to a message that someone took the time to write out. It isn't a hostile message- that one should probably ignore.

Imagine if someone who was a friend wrote it ( it's not something a friend would send, but one doesn't have the level of drama with a friend. Respond politely as if talking to a friend. That keeps you from adding to drama. There's a bunch of drama in her message " I always wanted it to work... ." don't bite that one.

"Thank you for this message.  I am glad to know you recall the good times and wanted our marriage to work. "

Leave it like that. Any " I think "anything in your defense falls in to JADE. This acknowledges that you heard her. If she wants to know how you feel, she can ask you and that discussion is best done face to face, not through a text.

Then leave it out


"Thank you for this message.  I am glad to know you recall the good times "


Even though you don't approve of what she is doing- no matter what happens, the two of you share children and so will always need to communicate with each other. You can set the tone by responding as if she was an acquaintance, no drama, just being civil and not getting into drama. Divorce won't end drama between you as you will be discussing children and settling things. Being civil, but not condoning may tone the drama down.

Exactly...

This is a "strategic shift".  I get it that you want the marriage to work... the OM to go away... .to repair things.

We don't know what the future holds, but for now I recommend the "strategic focus" be on the most calm coparenting that you can do.

FF

Oh wow... .it's my 17th wedding anniversary today!

I do my best Wicker Man... .I do my best in pretty much everything I put my hand to.

Big lump in my throat sitting here at work chewing through the thought that it's my wedding anniversary today. A marriage that I did try my best at, where I was a good husband, perfect, no, good, yes. I always put her first, yet here I am begging with God to send a lightening bolt of epiphany to her to realise that I'm not the man her mind has molded me into.

1 Corinthians 13:7-8
7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

MAKE IT STOP

Hi Enabler,

Catching up - so sorry to read about these developments.

Regarding your W's allegations of abusive behaviors, I wonder if it would be worth you looking at Lundy Bancroft's book "Why Does He Do That?". I thought about your W's allegations when I was reading this. The author has been working in counselling programs for abusive men for many years - in fact he started off one of the first ones. I know this is written for women, but he has many insights into the mindset and behavior patterns of abusive men. Some of the key features are control, a sense of entitlement, and disrespect.

Now, I know the book says that abusive men behave differently in public from what they do inside the abusive relationship where nobody sees. But Bancroft noted that when they are talking revealingly about themselves under stress, they give out a set of justifications and explanations for their behaviors and themselves which are quite noticeable. You have been posting here revealingly about yourself under stress, and as per Wicker Man's post above, you don't sound at all like you have the mindset and attitudes described in that book. Unless you have carefully crafted and maintained a fake compassionate and helpful persona for use on this website in order to enlist us as your own legion of flying monkeys (and how would that even help you if we were just validating an imaginary person), you aren't even close to the attitude that Bancroft's clients are taking towards their partners.

I wonder if your W is working from a tick-list of abusive behaviors or a more detailed book like this. You might see examples of some things you have done at some times in the book, and I think that nearly every man or indeed woman would. One of Bancroft's main points is that context and pattern and the underlying attitudes and mindset are really important to include when considering whether or not a particular incident or behavior "makes" someone an abuser. You said just above that you always put your wife first - that's one example of something that is the reverse of an abuser's attitude to their partner as described by Bancroft.

I think reading this book might help arm you with some sound material to put up against any allegations that your W persists with, and also demonstrate that you have considered and researched her allegations seriously, rather than dismissing them out of hand as the rantings of a crazy woman, which dismissal could itself be cited as indicative of an abusive attitude. You might even want to start a conversation with her on the topic of abuse on the basis of the book, but maybe just stick to what I did with my H, and don't actually give the book, just recite whole chunks of it! At any rate, I think it would help you to read it and get a good understanding of what she is trying to put on you and some ideas of how to respond.

I hope that helps, I will be praying for you.

BetterLanes x

Hang in there Enabler, this season will pass.

Like you said in the first part of this thread, she is interpreting reality through a variety of lenses, telling herself stories about you and then picking out evidence to reinforce them. She might have to be making excuses and justifications to herself in her head a lot of the time, maybe that's why they come spilling out so easily. I can see how facts like the ones you had could be a real problem for her!

Praying for your hurt heart,

BL x

So, I now reached the ripe old age of 40 as of yesterday    . Unlike some I don't see this as a problem and I'm not about to have a meltdown (again)... .it's like being 30 but with more unnecessary ear and nose hair. So, yesterday was always tee'd up to be a bit on the weird side, friends all busy with work, kids at school and no one really set up to make a natural fuss of me on my big day. I'd planned to go for a long hike in the local countryside and then take the kids out for cocktails and food after school. anything different would just be an added bonus.

So I wake up to a fanfare of breakfast, presents, balloons and banners. Kids were on fire and STBExW was doing a great job of helping the kids make a fuss of me. She'd come up with an excellent present idea which was an experience I could enjoy with the kids which was way more meaningful than some bit of expensive tat. So, she asks if I want some company on my walk... .I respond "I'm totally cool either way, fine with going on my own but more than happy for you to join me". So, she decides to come along... .I can't deny my anxiety was through the roof at this point as I wasn't sure whether or not I had the ability to stay grounded for 6 hours of weirdness... .

We start walking and I fire up the conversation topic by saying "So how's your world?". I've not had a conversation about 'her world' in 18m+ so the response to this could make or break the walk. Anyway, we start talking about her Christian work in a local prison. It's a very interesting role as a pastoral assistant and she meets a lot of very very sick people who are in a HIGHLY emotionally charged environments when they are HIGHLY sensitive to emotions. Many of the inmates are in prison because of their impulsive/angry/violent/manipulative/deceitful behaviour and I don't think it's unfair to say that many sound like they would get an instant BPD diagnosis if they were ever assessed. There's a huge amount of self harm and a huge number of suicide attempts. So... .anyway... .back to the conversation. I listened intently to my W, asked very few questions and avoided any kind of conjecture. I just listened with no judgement and asked questions I thought might prompt further discussion and keep things on a tact that hugged the emotional difficulties / therapy options / recovery line of discussion. Ultimately I was keeping the discussion as close as possible to her... .without being about her. She discussed in great detail how the women were very deceitful, yet they believed their own lies, they were manipulative, they took no responsibility, often they had very painful personal backgrounds, they would lash out when things didn't go their way and they would have extreme emotional reactions to small disappointments, how the women were so self-centered... .among other things. I have to say that I thought at points she was going to make/see parallels about herself in what she was saying... .but nope, nothing, zip, jack, nada. Not one muscle of her body language gave me a single wink that she felt that any such behaviours had any relation to her in the slightest. We spent a very very large percentage of the walk focused on her life, her jobs, her holiday. She asked me very very little about me or my thoughts on things and I only turned things to my feelings as and when it felt appropriate. Yes, I was the one who was asking her or stimulating conversation but it didn't feel much like she had any interest in asking. 'The relationship' was not discussed nor was the future other than small glances of indication that things might be different going forward. It was as though someone had wound back the clock 2 years, replaced me with a more emotionally intelligent person and we were just going for a leisurely hike as a 'normal' married couple, we laughed, we joked, we discussed and we enjoyed. I'd like to say it was nice (and it was), and a less naive me would be more excited about the experience, but I'm kinda indifferent about it, since in the grand scheme of things I don't think it changes anything, she won't see it as meaningful and I don't think I should even guess as to her motivations for coming and enjoying.

We had a great evening with the kids as a whole family, everyone was happy laughing and joking with each other. A small dysregulation by her in the restaurant due to getting sauce on her top (and claiming she needed to go home immediately, then refused to eat) was handled in a totally different way to the past, I brushed past it, continued to engage the kids and let her get over it. She later apologized at home about her 'moaning' to which I responded 'these things happen', she got slightly annoyed by that comment believing I meant about the sauce and got defensive... .I quickly corrected and said "I didn't mean the top, I meant the moaning"... .she went to bed.

Yesterday was what it was, it was nice respite from the otherwise relentless monotony of relationship disintegration. It's a shame to have these brief glimpses of how life could return to some semblance of normality, how my new skills could make the relationship better if she just allowed 'us' the opportunity to repair. The effort on her behalf was appreciated none the less and she made what could have been a bleak day very enjoyable.  The weirdness continues!

Maybe although we worked out that the message was sent on our wedding anniversary... .something I totally overlooked. She very much likes to 'hedge her bets' and see how she feels on the day. I assume this maybe why she left it so late to offer to come.

It was a nice experience, and I should probably take little other than just that away from the day. It was nice to be part of a caring cohesive family for a day at the very least, but I can't deny it adds to my confusion and personal frustration that given the evidence of what could be okay... .why can we/she not make it so. I suppose what compounds the frustration is that had we have both been atheists with no belief in the sanctity of marriage I could somewhat deal with the idea that we didn't need to 'die trying'... .but we do, we always have and it's one of the cornerstones of her outward personal values is that she is a Christian, I am a Christian, we got married in a church because we both believed we wanted our marriage to be consecrated by God... .and yet here we are, able to attain 'normal' yet going down a path of great destruction, away from the prescribed way of a Christian couple. Even if I had wavering beliefs especially after my father died... .she didn't yet she is the one that feels she doesn't need to 'die trying'.

Odd... .

It was nice to connect on a level and hopefully it was clear that I understood the mechanics of what is going on, even from the perspective of why inmates stop taking mood stabilising medication when they leave prison (bpdfamily video on schizophrenia). It was a very interesting conversation. I also got the opportunity to congratulate her on a more genuine level regarding her new job, we talked about the challenges in the job and some of the characters. Certainly from my perspective there was a huge backlog of her world I needed to catch up on. This granularity is the stuff that feeds a relationship, information sharing, understanding and appreciation... .starving the relationship of this has meant starving any connection, I guess this is intentional because she doesn’t want any chance of connection.

The later situation would be a horrific decision to make.

Hey Juju,

I read the preview of the book last night. I certainly like the mantra of his program of less analysis and more actions. I also found it interesting about the knock on effects of a divorce. I'm acutely aware of these impacts, especially on the children and certainly at the forefront of my mind when doing everything I can to avoid divorce. I can see no good coming out of ripping our little family to smithereens but there's very little I can do to stop that. TBH I didn't find much comfort in the first section reading what carnage is likely to lay in the divorces wake and the long term damage it's likely to cause to my children... .Not one bit.

Telling doesn't work... .showing does. I've decided all to late it's the only way. You can state the facts  but you might as well be beating her with a stick telling her what she's doing wrong or how she "got it wrong". My guess is that the second part of the book (non-preview) teaches how to take a different path, make unilateral decisions to 'go a different way', not engage in conflict and not perpetuate the conflict. I'm all for this.

Hi Enabler,


I'll put this over on your thread. Your relationship timeline is actually spookily similar to mine in terms of the timing and circumstances of the major events. Maybe that's why I noticed this difference.

Would you say that your W "found God" (from the above quote) subsequent to your marriage - in terms of having and/or expressing a "born-again" level of conversion experience? Indicators of this might include a sudden increase in Bible study or Christian reading, joining or getting serious about involvement in a new church, attending an Alpha course or equivalent. You said earlier on this thread that you were both Christians when you got married to the extent of wanting to marry in church, and that her faith hasn't wavered, but has your W had an experience since marriage that for her represented a step change in her level of Christian commitment?

If that is the case, I wonder if your W and/or the OM might be using this passage from 1 Corinthians 7 to inform or justify some of her actions and attitudes.

10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. 16 How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?

-  I have seen this passage read (indeed by Chuck Swindoll) to mean that someone who has been born again after a marriage is not required to remain in the marriage, since they are a new creation. Of course in Paul's day the majority of Christians weren't Christians in name only, for some kind of social reason, vaguely because they were brought up that way, etc, since becoming a Christian was a choice that had a massive impact on your life circumstances. It is easier to apply this passage in the situation where someone who had never even heard of Christianity hears the teachings and declares themselves to be a "believer" and joins the very identifiable community of other believers. It is harder to do that in a "Christian country" where you could spend your whole life going to church without ever really having a conversion experience.

Anyway, I'm just wondering if this passage might be a thing for your W, and if she could be looking out for evidence to validate it. So that would be any evidence that you are actually in the category of "unbeliever" at least compared to her, plus any evidence that you are not willing to live with her and in the process of leaving. If that's so, you could try to avoid showing her anything she could interpret as that evidence and/or try to deliberately show her the opposite. My own born-again conversion experience was at university while I was in a relationship with my H but before marriage, and I actually did have a relationship-ending conversation with him after and because of that experience following this same line of reasoning. (What can I say? I'm bad at following through  )

BetterLanes x