When we do have intimacy I feel like I am taking advantage of her

[nedley]

Essentially I am not having my needs met. We are at a stage where we are what you would call a serious relationship but she will walk around me naked and expect me to do nothing or if I do tell me that she feels uncomfortable when I do that so I asked what should I do to make you feel comfortable so we can fulfill each other's needs and she said that she is working on it which I'm sure she is but it continues to be a problem and I don't know how to help and when we do have intimacy I feel like I am taking complete advantage of someone instead of being a mutual feeling of love giving it to each other.

I have so many thoughts right now I really don't know what to think. I truly want to be with this wonderful person but I also read that eventually they might leave someone that they love and I asked her about that because she does feel like I will leave her because she doesn't feel feel not one but many of the needs that I have I told her that I don't want to leave her and that I love her but that I fear that it won't be me the one leaving but out of fear I think she will do it so that I won't hurt her. I want to make her happy to help her recover as much as she can recover but I also think that I don't want to waste my time helping someone to one day be a wife when the best that she can do is be a friend and I am okay with that but I don't want to waste each other's time. This is a very hard decision and most of what I read says run away but I really don't want to if there's any chance that we can actually be a happy couple.

I really need help or concentrate on what to do to be a good strong person for her but at the same time have for myself the log and nurture that I give her.
I've been reading through this forum as much as I can I don't want to feel like a jerk but I also meet the tools and knowledge to not let someone emotionally immature jerk me around either.

Thank you so much for taking the time to read through this and give me advise

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Radcliff]

Depersonalization was an important tool for me as well.  I'm not sure if we have a page on it.  If I didn't read about it in Eggshells, it may have been Loving Someone With Borderline Personality Disorder.  Basically, the idea is to understand that our partners have an illness, and that their perceptions are distorted.  So if they insult us, it's not coming from an accurate place -- the insults and perceptions are heavily influenced by the illness -- so we can learn not to take it personally.  Essentially, we don't give the harmful statements as much weight as we would with someone whose perceptions we trusted more completely.  Does that make sense?  In the early stages of learning to cope with my wife's illness, this helped me quite a bit.

RC

[nedley]

Thank you, I'll read that as well. I've been reading the book the high conflict couple, I hope I can learn from it.

[Radcliff]

It's fantastic that you've done a lot of reading.  That will give you a base of understanding.  But actually making things better (or at the very least avoiding making them worse) requires practicing with the coping tools we teach here.  That's where the power of this place really comes in, talking about specific situations and how to handle them, then doing an after-action and adjusting the approach once you've tried out the tools and seen how they went.

What's a particular situation that's happened recently that you wished would have gone better?

RC

[nedley]

We have issues with intimacy, also lately as the relationship progresses she will become more distant some times and apologize next then back to the same, she did explain some things that happened to her for years at an early age and I felt very sorry she had to grow up with that happening every day.
Also, though she works hard every day, she will come back always tired and not want to do things in the house or even improvements which I always end up handling. I'm a very resourceful person and work as a contractor, I can do all kinds of things which I think she likes but a little company and cheer would be good too.
She will have a headache one moment and if she wants to go out it will sort of go away but then if I approach her o kiss or get close she gets it right back and might get angry if I don't listen right away.
There is more but that is what I can remember right now.
I have very strong feelings for her but I've never experienced this before or knew it existed, it is very hard and depressing some times. I looked for a local group I could go to and talk but I didn't find one yet, I'm a lonely person myself and always have done things on my own but I feel like I need advise or someone to talk to some times.

Thank You for helping me with advise and for Your time, some of You go through a lot every day I see, I wonder if there is a chance of recovery and having a semi normal life at some point or if everyone ends up breaking up or worst yet divorcing. This is a wonderful person, I so very wish I could find a way to help her.

[Radcliff]

Have you been able to talk with her about intimacy and how she feels about it?  Big problems are usually not solved in one conversation.  An initial conversation where you are truly seeking to understand, and understand only as much as she is comfortable sharing, might be a good first step.  Unless you've already had this conversation?  If so, what has she shared?

Are you living together or do you have separate homes?

WW

[nedley]

Have you been able to talk with her about intimacy and how she feels about it?  Big problems are usually not solved in one conversation.  An initial conversation where you are truly seeking to understand, and understand only as much as she is comfortable sharing, might be a good first step.  Unless you've already had this conversation?  If so, what has she shared?

Are you living together or do you have separate homes?

RC

Hi Radcliff, she shared about the abuse recently, we talked for a few hours, she blocked a lot of bad memories to not feel sad. I know she's trying to do more and to feel more comfortable. She's also back in therapy now that she find a place that works with her schedule. She was heavily accused from early age many times by different people of different ages
She is doing her part but it isn't solved in a few weeks I'm sure, I will be there to help when needed.
We both have our own homes but I spend most of my time at Hers.
She had an episode yesterday where she started saying she's not good enough for me and that there may not be a reward for all my hard work and efforts, I asked her if she would prefer if I left it if she loves me, she said don't leave and yes I love you, I tried to use some of the info I read here saying I will be right here when you need me and I think it helped.

[Skip]

I want to make her happy to help her recover as much as she can recover but I also think that I don't want to waste my time helping someone to one day be a wife when the best that she can do is be a friend and I am okay with that but I don't want to waste each other's time. This is a very hard decision and most of what I read says run away but I really don't want to if there's any chance that we can actually be a happy couple.

Nedley,

This is a special needs relationship and will always be a special needs relationship. If she has BPD traits related to sexual trauma, this is a very wounded girl. Know that her comments about you leaving are because she is picking up a lack of commitment from you - or a conditional love. That itself will eventually kill the relationship so you are asking the right question "Can I provide the strength (in the face of uncertainty and down moods) to provide a consistent, structured loving environment?" If not, this is probably not a good match.

Some of the things to think about:

Get Educated About Trauma

It’s important to be educated about how it affects people. Intimate relationships can produce intense trauma reactions because these situations often cause the strongest reminders of a harmful past, and the body and brain react based on these past memories. This can manifest in a number of ways, from fear of physical intimacy and trust issues, to flashbacks and body memories, to a highly tuned fight-or-flight response.

Let Her Tell Their Story on Their Schedule

It’s important that he has the space to share their story when and how they can. Be prepared to hear these stories with empathy, understanding, respect, and confidentiality.

Communicate

Like all relationships, communication can’t be emphasized enough. It ensures both partners are on the same page, and helps her feel that she has enough space to process her trauma within the relationship.

Put Consent Front and Center

What will make her feel most comfortable is being with a partner who prioritizes consent not just in the sexual and romantic aspects but in every small way, from the ability to make her own choices about her body and her identity, to what each of you are responsible for in your lives.

Respect Your Partner’s Needs

She may have specific needs to deal with triggers from the past that seem simple but are critical for safety. For example if she “comes to your home, and wants the curtains to be closed, don’t have an argument about that. Allow her to have the curtains be closed.”

Respecting a partner’s needs can help survivors manage memories of the past and feel more comfortable in intimate situations.

Let the Relationship Move At Its Own Pace

Recovery moves at its own pace for each individual

[nedley]

Thank you for your response. I like the way you put it, the case that it may not be a good match, I will be diligent observing to determine this. Meanwhile we've made some progress this week dealing with day to day issues, I've been trying to validate what she says more or as much as I can tell some times even going back and say yes... ." So it doesn't sound like it isn't important.
As for intimacy, she's going to therapy for that every other week, I might be asked to come along at some point.
This is something I'm learning about still very much, I'm putting 100% from me while I understand she may or may not do her part. I'm prepared for that and don't stop living my own life, I hope this works for both of us.
Thank you for your accurate response.

[Skip]

It would be good to do problems solving here... .learn the skills.

[nedley]

It would be good to do problems solving here... .learn the skills.

That's in the tools section right? I'm going to look it up.
Thank you.

[Skip]

That's in the tools section right? I'm going to look it up.

Yes. A lot of us bring problem situations here and work them out with the "family". 

[Seashore]

I just wanted to chime in as someone who has been raped (which I’ve only recently come to grips with, as it occurred within my marriage) and also had a manual placenta removal, which caused significant PTSD and nearly shut down intimacy for me for good. So I have some experience being in your partners position (albeit as a “normal person” I’m sure BPD adds a whole new dimension to the suffering and requires different healing techniques).

I don’t want to make assumptions but from what I read in your first post

Essentially I am not having my needs met. We are at a stage where we are what you would call a serious relationship but she will walk around me naked and expect me to do nothing or if I do tell me that she feels uncomfortable when I do that so I asked what should I do to make you feel comfortable so we can fulfill each other's needs and she said that she is working on it which I'm sure she is but it continues to be a problem and I don't know how to help and when we do have intimacy I feel like I am taking complete advantage of someone instead of being a mutual feeling of love giving it to each other.

I read, as someone who has struggles with physical intimacy, is a bit of entitlement in the first part of this statement, where it appears as though you expect that your partner should be meeting your needs, when really you could be taking on some of the burden. Just bc you are in a relationship doesn’t mean the full responsibility of physical satisfaction becomes your partner’s. The analogy I make with my H, who is uBPD, to help him understand is that physical intimacy is such a great gift, like sharing a meal. It satisfies hunger, and the need for emotional connection. Sometimes though, these needs must be satisfied separately. Sometimes you have to eat alone. And sometimes one partner is hungry and the other isn’t. Make yourself a pb&j sandwich and eat it standing up in the kitchen to eliminate hunger, bc she is just not capable of sharing just yet, or isn’t hungry. You would never force someone to eat just because you want to and don’t want to be alone. What I’m getting at is that you need to take the burden of expectation off of her. It adds anxiety to an already very difficult situation, BPD or not.

I also want to point out that walking around naked may not be an invitation. I used to walk around naked as part of my healing. I had to learn to disassociate nakedness with vulnerability. It was an exercise in desensitization. I often felt like prey in this state, and my H was not sensitive at all to this, so I had to start doing it when he wasnt around. I’m not saying this is what she is doing (an exercise) but just abandon your native expectations based on prior relationships or whatever. Plus, If your partner is a pwBPD, she may not be picking up your feelings at all (that’s the nature of the illness), so you can hardly say she’s purposely leaving you hanging. On  the other hand, she MAY be “advertising” but then is overtaken by anxiety and fear. That used to happen to me a lot. I would overestimate my progress, and find myself in over my head. I would then face a full on rage event after my H felt “rejected”. I had many setbacks. You are not BPD I assume, so please don’t do this to her. Praise her progress, and never never fault her for setbacks.

The hardest part for me was the longing I had to “sit at the table” so to say. I wanted so badly to want physical intimacy with my partner, but I just couldn’t get past the fear. It is something that takes a lot of work, SO much work, but it’s INVISIBLE to everyone but the person doing it. I noticed over time that I stopped feeling nauseous first. Then I found that I no longer flinched when touched, a reaction no one noticed but me to begin with. All of my milestones were passed without any acknowledgement at all, or were trivialized by my H who’s only concern was, and still is, himself. Don’t be that guy.

I do read in your post and I truly believe you genuinely want to help your partner with her issues, but are also honest with yourself about your limitations. I think that’s great. I wish I had a partner like that to help me recover. I’ve been entirely on my own, and have the added struggle of doing it while still with the person who violated me, AND is uBPD and abusive. Anyway, you deserve credit for what you are attempting to do for someone else. I wouldn’t go into it tho thinking about what you can get out of it, such as marriage, a wife, etc. I would suggest you think about giving the gift of healing, of tenderness, and care. No strings attached. If after all is said and done and your paths end up separating, you can both be grateful for the time you had together, the lessons you learned, and the experiences that will make you that much wiser. I had an “ever after” mindset with my H before I knew about his illness, and I’ve been struggling with letting that go. (You can read my other post to see how that’s unfolding.) I am not at a stage yet where I can offer advice on how to deal with the BPD stuff, since I’m still learning, and failing, and suffering. I only wanted to share my experience as a victim of trauma to help you gain some perspective, since most victims dont talk about it for various reasons.

One more thing, regarding consent... .it might be worth exploring the difference between mental and physical consent. What I mean is, many times I used to feel “up to it” either a state of willingness to try or even “mental” arousal, but my body would not feel the same way. So while H had my consent, I hadn’t gotten my body’s consent. I’d be tense, unresponsive, and I’d end up “enduring” sex rather than “enjoying” it. I had to learn to listen to my body and respect its healing process. Pay attention to your partners cues, all of them, and don’t push, even if she says she wants to. You said you want it to be reciprocal, so don’t settle for anything less.

Last thing I’ll say is that you should do some more reading (I know, you probably do more reading now than you did in high school while preparing to write a research paper) about how to be a healing influence in a victim of abuse’s life. I read these, to help myself understand how my symptoms are interpreted, and so I could give my partner specific instruction as to how to help me. Of course that didn’t always mean I got cooperation, but at least guessing and intuition were removed from the equation.

[nedley]

Thank You for Your input, I appreciate You sharing Your personal experience with me and warning me about potential problems. I realize I sound like an ass on text but reality is far from that. I've not been (know her for a little longer though) with this beautiful person a year yet and I have been through a lot already, she has taken over and most of the time conversations revolve around her existence only. I've dedicated not only time and energy but also financial help. Please don't assume that just bc I ask for advise on how to overcome the  intimacy issue we have now, this is the only thing in my mind and I care not for her feelings and also enjoyment.

I hope I can help her but I know therapy is the key and encourage and praise her for continuing with it. Every few days as she opens up a little more I learn a new side of this condition and bc of my lack of knowledge on the matter I try to find ways to help by reading about someone else's experience, so be assured I appreciate that You shared it with me. What seemed simple at first I learn becomes difficult or almost impossible to accomplish as the relationship is more serious.
Maybe it is true that instead of looking for a wife or a possible life partner I should be content with having a friend or a loving person I care about bc that could be all she can offer.

[pearlsw]

Hi nedley,

Can you tell us more about what is going on between you two? What are some of the problems you are having? Physical intimacy is just one of them? In that sense, there is a dynamic that makes you feel you are taking advantage of her somehow? Does she avoid physical intimacy, send you mixed signals? Is there any affection between you two?

take care, pearl.

[nedley]

Hello Pearl, we are affectionate to each other, she has moments when she begins to put distance and it tends to take a couple of days for this to pass. When we do have intimacy she will start well and then doesn't feel well anymore so I stop. Last time she asked me to use her regardless, that made me feel horrible to just think of it.
Most of her experiences with other men last about 6-9 months, we are at the 9 month mark. I'm still trying to understand her patterns.

I was spending a lot of time at her house every day the last two weeks, I've been at my house the last couple of days and she said she felt good yesterday bc she had a chance to miss me. I get the idea that if I don't stay with her she will have an episode but honestly I wanted to be at my house I have lots to do and her day to day is very different to mine, I tend to get lots done in a day. I help with her house quite a bit and I enjoy it but I feel like it is never enough.

She is going to therapy every other week now and come to my house those days bc is closer to me, I really like having her here but she doesn't stay, she told me that it is very important for her to be at her house or eventually get used to mine.

I do everything I can to validate her and learn how can I really be a supportive person for her, I'm reading two books and here every day but there is only so much I can read in a day.

Thanks for reading this.

[Radcliff]

I have been through a lot already, she has taken over and most of the time conversations revolve around her existence only.

This is a  .  It's important for you to maintain your own priorities and boundaries.  You cannot pour enough effort into her to make all of her troubles go away.  The best thing for the relationship is for you also to maintain your own individuality in areas, to make sure you have time for those productive days you enjoy at your house, etc.  Grow the relationship in a healthy way.  She may not like it in the short term, but in the long run it is healthier for you both.  What are some key personal priorities or activities that you feel are important to recapture or maintain, that you feel may be in danger?

[nedley]

This is a  .  It's important for you to maintain your own priorities and boundaries.  You cannot pour enough effort into her to make all of her troubles go away.  The best thing for the relationship is for you also to maintain your own individuality in areas, to make sure you have time for those productive days you enjoy at your house, etc.  Grow the relationship in a healthy way.  She may not like it in the short term, but in the long run it is healthier for you both.  What are some key personal priorities or activities that you feel are important to recapture or maintain, that you feel may be in danger?

Thank you for your observation, yes I'm working on that now, giving priority to things that I need to do, I enjoy seeing the progress I make working on my house. I have made sure to let her know where I am and make sure she feels loved when I'm not with her. She is doing her part going to therapy and reading books about BPD, she says a lot has changed since she was diagnosed.
There is much to with on but I'm not sure how but I know I can't do it all at once.
One thing that is an issue, we both have dogs hers is older mine is a puppy I got when we started dating, it's a large breed and still going to training classes. My puppy makes her very anxious and she said she was not prepared to have a puppy in her life, this is one of the reasons I rather stay at my house some times in order to give her a break but if I go even if I explain it and she agrees to it things get unstable when I do so I've been trying to stay in touch as much as possible when I know I will stay at my house.
I feel like she's making an honest effort to be better I want to give her all the assistance she needs.
 

[Radcliff]

That's good that you are tending to your own priorities.

You mentioned that she found that having a chance to miss you could be a good thing.  Is there a pattern of staying at her place and staying at yours that might be optimal?  Could a regular weekly schedule give you both a balance of security and space?

[nedley]

That's good that you are tending to your own priorities.

You mentioned that she found that having a chance to miss you could be a good thing.  Is there a pattern of staying at her place and staying at yours that might be optimal?  Could a regular weekly schedule give you both a balance of security and space?

You're right, that's something we can do.
I still have lots to do at my house and following a schedule would be a great way to handle it.
The books in reading are help books for loved ones of pwBPD, I feel they are very general and don't talk about methods with the level of detail I was hopping for.

[Radcliff]

You're right, that's something we can do.
I still have lots to do at my house and following a schedule would be a great way to handle it.

That's great!  If you try it, let us know how it works out.

The books in reading are help books for loved ones of pwBPD, I feel they are very general and don't talk about methods with the level of detail I was hopping for.

The books can be very useful to getting us oriented, but this message board complements them by offering a place where we can practice and discuss the tools.  Is there a particular method you were hoping to learn more about how to apply?

RC