PART 2: CPS Now Involved

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Moderation note:  This thread is a continuation of part 1:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329022.0;all

Here’s a new question... .

Does anybody know who is supposed to press charges, me or some government agency? About the criminal investigation? Who charges him with what he did “allegedly” I suppose.

I think either one can, and the difference is where the funding for the trial comes from? Anyway, I am just wondering if there is more I am supposed to be doing about this.

Dig

[Dignity&Strength]

Moderation note:  This thread is a continuation of part 1:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329022.0;all

Here’s a new question... .

Does anybody know who is supposed to press charges, me or some government agency? About the criminal investigation? Who charges him with what he did “allegedly” I suppose.

I think either one can, and the difference is where the funding for the trial comes from? Anyway, I am just wondering if there is more I am supposed to be doing about this.

Dig

[Radcliff]

Dig,

A couple of questions... .

Unless I'm mixing things up, I think earlier you said your son was naked and then just above you said he had a tank top and underwear on?

You said you are never alone with S5, but you also said you're staying upstairs with him as much as possible to give the couple space.  How does that work if you can't be alone with him?  How does bedtime work?  Does he sleep upstairs with you, and the couple sleeps downstairs?

Here’s a new question... .

Does anybody know who is supposed to press charges, me or some government agency? About the criminal investigation? Who charges him with what he did “allegedly” I suppose.

I think either one can, and the difference is where the funding for the trial comes from? Anyway, I am just wondering if there is more I am supposed to be doing about this.

Dig

The state brings a criminal case against your husband.  You would be a witness, not a decision maker.
 Especially in the case of alleged harm to a minor, you may have little or no influence over how a criminal trial proceeds.  I'm not familiar with how it works in all states, or if there are differences, but in my state it's a misconception to say that a victim or witness "files charges."  The DA decides to file charges on behalf of the state.  The question for an adult victim to answer for the DA is more a question of whether or not the victim will cooperate and testify.  In a domestic violence case, for example, a victim may indicate an unwillingness to cooperate because they don't want to get their abuser in trouble, and this may influence the DA's decision on whether or not to file charges, but it's the DA's decision.  As with all things legal, it's good to check any questions you have with your lawyer.

RC

[Dignity&Strength]

Dig,

A couple of questions... .

Unless I'm mixing things up, I think earlier you said your son was naked and then just above you said he had a tank top and underwear on?

You said you are never alone with S5, but you also said you're staying upstairs with him as much as possible to give the couple space.  How does that work if you can't be alone with him?  How does bedtime work?  Does he sleep upstairs with you, and the couple downstairs?

You’re not mixing things ups. S5 started his story in the van, and it began with “daddy put me in a tank top with my underwear on, and made me sit in the chair in the living room and watch Miniforce (a kids cartoon).

Remember in my answer to Turkish, that the “worst of it” was the line I quoted? There was more disclosure about what daddy did to him in the chair, while he had on a tank top and his underwear. S5’s story began with the tank top/living room chair and ended with him on the living room floor, and then the horrific line, and about being naked.

I’m not sure I can quote what S5 said happened in the chair, I’d have to listen to the recording again to be sure. It was something like, “daddy put his hand on my penis and rubbed it until it was up”. I asked S5, if he remembered if daddy’s hand was outside his underwear or underneath. S5 said “daddy put his hand inside my underwear”.

The house we are in is an older farmhouse. It’s very easy to hear from place to place. Also, the living room is at the bottom of the staircase and our room right at the top. Their bedroom is underneath ours, and they can hear us fairly easily. S5 has a heart condition, it causes reflux in the middle of the night, so I sleep beside him in my yoga clothes, to listen for his breathing, to make sure he doesn’t choke and stop breathing in his sleep.

So the couple listens carefully, and I’m super compliant not to talk about any of this with S5.

Dig

[livednlearned]

How is S5 doing? I remember you mentioned that he loved his dad and they were close.

How is S5 doing with the separation, and does he understand what's happening? Will CPS allow him to see therapists to help him process what's happening?

That had to be so awful for him to be raped by his father, and then to be examined by strangers, and now you're not allowed to talk to him about any of this.

It's really tragic. How is S5 holding up?

[Dignity&Strength]

How is S5 doing? I remember you mentioned that he loved his dad and they were close.

How is S5 doing with the separation, and does he understand what's happening? Will CPS allow him to see therapists to help him process what's happening?

That had to be so awful for him to be raped by his father, and then to be examined by strangers, and now you're not allowed to talk to him about any of this.

It's really tragic. How is S5 holding up?

S5 seems to be doing well.  He has mentioned his dad a few times, has asked if he would ever get to wrestle with daddy again, and if his daddy was going to jail.  I was told to tell him, that daddy is off learning to be the best daddy ever.  Well, that does sound like that statement is non-alienating!  But not exactly the truth either. 

I suppose, I haven't really thought about what that is like for s5, that he is not allowed to talk to me about what happened.  Now that you mention it, that does sound terrible.  I have been solely focused on whether or not they took him away from me and put him in a regular foster home with 4 other kids, without me.  That it almost happened that way.  I would have had to make appointments for visitation with the foster parents.  I have been focused on gratitude that we were spared that, and how s5 surely would have been severely traumatized for life if they did that. 

The examined by strangers part, the physical rape kit, was not so bad on him it seems.  He did not cry, and kept a happy heart through it all.  The nurse was a special, sweet, kind soul.  She had a view finder toy, with animal pictures in it, and special sunglasses for him to wear, and a special handmade quilt, donated by local church women, to cover him with.  s5 was so excited about the viewfinder, and about talking with the nurse, playing with her, that he almost didn't notice being examined. 

He already does see a lot of medical specialists, given his medical needs.  He has an ekg once a year, which is like a long sonogram test on his chest, in the dark, with a technician and a computer. 

S5 played and chattered with the nurse while she did the kit, and she talked to him so gently.  He didn't want to leave her, and wanted to keep the sunglasses and viewfinder.

There is a special place in town for children who have experienced sexual abuse.  There is counseling and therapy, play therapy and the other forensic and medical testing services.  So, s5 will have his own therapist trained in sexual abuse.  He is also going to be allowed to attend a special half-day pre-school type service, where the teachers are child therapists, working on undoing the effects of seeing domestic violence.  He will go there 3 mornings a week. 

So, there are services for him, thankfully.  I do not know, if they have therapeutic foster care here, but he certainly would qualify for that in my hometown.  We are in the clear for him being sent to foster care, for now.  But if S5 frustrates this couple, before these restrictions are lifted, it may come to that. 

 It is awful for me to have to tell him that if he doesn't behave, and is rude, he may have to go to foster care without me.  I don't know what else to do to get him to behave.  He is quite rude to them sometimes.  Otherwise, his behaviors are normal... .he talks a little loud, likes to climb, runs through the house, complains, disobeys, insists on having his way... .just typical 5 year old little boy stuff.  But he is also very kind and sweet.  Like a normal kid.

I completely agree with you... .I can't talk to him about what his dad did, and he is not allowed to go home, or see his dad, there is this couple who is sweet, but often has a short fuse with his typical 5 year old behaviors, and his mom has to tell him that if he doesn't straighten out and stop being rude, he may have to go to foster care with strangers, without his mommy, and I would have no control over it. 

He is very clingy to me.  He doesn't want to be without me, even to go upstairs by himself.  Understandably.

I pray this situation doesn't slip into being worse before it gets better. 

Dig 

[Turkish]

It is awful for me to have to tell him that if he doesn't behave, and is rude, he may have to go to foster care without me. 

Have you told him this?

[Dignity&Strength]

I had to tell him last night. He has worn out his welcome with the wife. She is very angry with him, and experiencing a high level of anxiety.

It is awful, that if she asks us to leave, and calls the social worker, S5 will go into foster care, in custody of the state, and I will have to apply for supervised visitation with him.

This would likely feel like a huge punishment for him, after having disclosed. He has lost his home, his daddy, has this angry lady whose house we’re staying in, and at the end, may be taken completely away from me.

I am shattered.
I am going to think back to my therapeutic foster parent days, and the conversation about how to handle false allegations. The wife is concerned that S5 could make false allegations against them, like accuse them of spanking him.

I need help validating her.

Dig

[livednlearned]

She is very angry with him, and experiencing a high level of anxiety.

How does she express her anger?

When you told him that, was she there to overhear?

I am going to think back to my therapeutic foster parent days, and the conversation about how to handle false allegations. The wife is concerned that S5 could make false allegations against them, like accuse them of spanking him.

Why on earth would she believe something like that?

[worriedStepmom]

Why on earth would she believe something like that?

That raised giant red flags for me.  I wonder if they were told that there was a strong possibility that S had filed a false accusation against his father and that's why she's so quick to believe he might raise one against her?

I think it is imperative that your L figure out what is going on with CPS.  The puzzle pieces sure make it look like they believe you were coaching S.

[Dignity&Strength]

It happened at supper last night, that S5 was not obeying me, and the husband told him he needed to overt his mama, or he was going to spank him.

S5 climbed in my lap, held on tight to my neck, and said,” no mommy, I’m sorry, please don’t let him spank me, I’m afraid it’ll hurt so bad it would kill me”

So, that’s when the wife got upset with S5. She cried. She went to her room. And she talked to me after S5 went to bed, and told me we couldn’t stay here unless S5 understood how serious it was that he not accuse her husband of spanking  him, when that had not happened.

She was in earshot, when I talked to S5. She said he needed to know what they had done for him, and how easily he could go to foster care if she said we couldn’t stay here anymore.


I am in another rock and a hard place, managing emotions and perceptions of another person, while trying to keep S5 safe.

But S5 has been through ENOUGH. There needs to be no threat of going into foster care and in doing so, losing me on a regular basis too. That’s WAY too much on  a young, tender soul.

I have emailed my attorney today, with a list of medical needs S5 has, and with our need to go to the pediatrician on Friday, and to get another person background checked and cleared before then so that we can go.

I agree, CPS needs to be figured out. ASAP. 

I also talked with the couple this morning, while S5 was still asleep, and set up some ground rules, not to threaten S5 with any sort of physical punishment. Time out, and other nonviolent crisis interventions will be used now instead.
Thank goodness.

Dig

[worriedStepmom]

She was in earshot, when I talked to S5. She said he needed to know what they had done for him, and how easily he could go to foster care if she said we couldn’t stay here anymore.

That is a completely inappropriate expectation of and burden on a 5-year-old.  Especially a 5-year-old who has recently undergone trauma - and simply losing his home and his dad is a pretty big trauma at that age.

My perfectly healthy and not abused 5-year-old was a holy terror when her father and I got separated.  She stayed in her home with me, went to the same day care, had the exact same routine when with me, and she stayed with her dad periodically.  Her behavior was AWFUL for months and I put her in therapy to learn how to cope.  (Spoiler:  it took a while for the behavior to improve.)

It sounds to me as if your friend does not believe S5.

I'm glad that you've set some boundaries, and that you are working to find an alternative solution for now.

[livednlearned]

I'm confused.

You told S5 that he might have to go to foster care?

Or did your host tell him that?

Do you think she believes S5 falsely accused his dad/your H of molesting him?

[Dignity&Strength]

Sorry, I’ll try to clarify... .

My host asked me to talk to s5 about that.

She completely believes that S5 is telling the truth about what happened with his daddy, and she has heard the disclosure conversation recordings. She thinks those are sure fire proof that I did not coach S5.

She misunderstood something S5 said at supper time yesterday. I talked to her, and she understands what he meant now. It’s ok, all smoothed over.

[Turkish]

That's good that it's smoothed over. Your son shouldn't have had to hear a stranger, basically,  threaten to spank him.  My ex deals with this with her family who thinks that smacking kids to control them is what she should do,  despite S8 being ASD1 (my mom implied this to me also).

But did you tell S5 he might go to foster care?

[ForeverDad]

This is quite low on your priority list right now, but I recall you had mentioned before a concern about alimony after a divorce.  USA law regarding alimony is changing starting with divorces in 2019.  If you would receive alimony, the payer would have the tax liability, not you.  Just so you know that's one less worry.

For those who are pondering divorce or whose divorces may not be final this year, 2019 is a game changer on how we strategize regarding alimony.  You may want to consult a tax law attorney for guidance.

Essentially, alimony and child support will henceforth have the same behaviors, the payer can't deduct it anymore starting with divorces completed after 12/31/2018.  This is a huge change to us here.  Our divorces often drain our financial resources and reserves.  Having the generally lower-income recipient pay the (presumably lower) tax liability reduced what was due in taxes and so the loser was generally the government who got less tax or none.  I figure that's why that alimony perk is ending, the tax man wants his money.

[Dignity&Strength]

Turkish,
I had a fine line to walk with that conversation. I’m sure you agree, actually telling S5 he would have to go to foster care if we were no longer welcome where we are would have been horrible. That’s way too much on a young child, who has already experienced too much.

Yet, our host wanted me to talk to him. Personally, I think she should be adult enough to realize that he is only 5. A traumatized 5 year old at that. She needs to lower her expectations. I am going to do positive parenting with him, whether she likes it or not. She gets frustrated when I validate him, and help him through his behaviors, rather than dealing out punishment right then.

I talked to him, to help satisfy her. Because she was listening. And if she wasn’t satisfied with the conversation, I feel certain, she was going to ask us to leave the next day. So, I included things in that conversation like, we need to be thankful that they are helping with our safety plan. We need to be polite. Right now, Mommy needs to you to try your best to do what I ask you to do, without arguing. We need to stay here as long as everyone who is helping us says we need to. I told him, seeing him disobey me upset her, and he could help us by not arguing and talking back so much. So S5 tried to be agreeable the best he could, and I affirmed him and praised him when he answered without arguing. We had a much better day the next day.

And I have been working on keeping both S5 and I out of the main living areas in the morning, until the couple has had a chance to wake up and have their coffee. I have put my own coffee pot in the upstairs bathroom, and have brought s5’s kindergarten homeschool things to the desk in our room. There is still the close proximity, hey can hear what we say, but S5 doesn’t seem so loud, when we are some distance away. This worked better the past few days.

S5 needs understanding, and to feel safe and loved right where he is. Providing therapeutic parenting for S5, along with responding to this couple’s anxiety and expectations, is tough, but I am keeping at it. Affirm and validate, when I can... .that seems to go a long ways. 

Dig

[livednlearned]

Does S5 want to see his dad? Is that part of what's troubling him, that he can't see his dad and doesn't know why?

[Dignity&Strength]

LNL,

I am not sure. I am not allowed to talk to him about it. But I am certain that’s highly likely.

The husband of the couple we are staying with is really pretty good with S5. It is filling some of that empty place left open by his dad. He lets him help with projects around the farm.

The wife is really struggling with depression and anxiety. Tell tale signs of dirty dishes being left all over the house, right where someone stopped eating, and lots of sleeping. I am thinking, it’s possible she miscarried sometime this year? Maybe.

S5’s voice bothers her. She doesn’t want to hear him. S5 is a little loud, due to his hearing loss. And he loves to talk to her, and ask her things. But she is mostly completely annoyed with it.

She has had good days, of showing some patience, and others like today, where she demands that I silence S5. S5 is trying to be quieter. It’s not his fault. But once again, we are at the threshold of being threatened with her saying that we can’t stay here anymore.

This is not a healthy place to stay. We cannot stay here much longer. The court hearing has to be soon. I do not know when it is. Sometime the end of this month, I think.
I will take forms to my attorney tomorrow, so I should find out.

Much provision and miracles needed. I feel like I am back taking care of another person who needs counseling, like my husband. This friend of mine, the wife, is harder to manage than S5.

I am doing all I can to try to remind him to be quieter. But that’s not really fair to him. It is what it is at this point.

Dig

[livednlearned]

She completely believes that S5 is telling the truth about what happened with his daddy, and she has heard the disclosure conversation recordings. She thinks those are sure fire proof that I did not coach S5.

We don't learn that much about actual CPS investigations on the boards, so it's interesting to learn how things work where you live.

Did S5 have to go through his awful rape examination by himself, or were you able to be there with him? I know sometimes law enforcement gets involved immediately. Did you have to go through any kind of interview by yourself with CPS or law enforcement (both?). If so, that must have been awful.

Is your host family part of a CPS network? I hadn't heard of families who volunteer to take in CPS victims. Do you think they knew what they were signing up for when they agreed to host you and S5? I'm wondering if your friend/the wife is exhausted because she thought your stay was temporary and now it could go on for months. Has anyone helped you understand why you can't return to your home or be alone with S5?

Are there any more interviews scheduled?

It must be so hard to not know what is going on. Is your lawyer responding to questions?

[Dignity&Strength]

We don't learn that much about actual CPS investigations on the boards, so it's interesting to learn how things work where you live.

Did S5 have to go through his awful rape examination by himself, or were you able to be there with him? I know sometimes law enforcement gets involved immediately. Did you have to go through any kind of interview by yourself with CPS or law enforcement (both?). If so, that must have been awful.

Is your host family part of a CPS network? I hadn't heard of families who volunteer to take in CPS victims. Do you think they knew what they were signing up for when they agreed to host you and S5? I'm wondering if your friend/the wife is exhausted because she thought your stay was temporary and now it could go on for months. Has anyone helped you understand why you can't return to your home or be alone with S5?

Are there any more interviews scheduled?

It must be so hard to not know what is going on. Is your lawyer responding to questions?

Hi LNL,
 I will try to share what I can.  I think, each situation is completely different, no matter what the state laws.  The state law that I know is particular here, is the 59.9 mile radius limit for sharing custody.  

I was able to be there with him for the physical exam, and the nurse was a specialty nurse, that works in rape crisis.  She was a dear soul, and was very good to work with.  She had a distraction toy for s5, an old fashioned style viewfinder, with an animal or zoo disc of pictures.  That worked well, because the strong light lamp she had to use for the exam helped s5 see the viewfinder pictures well.  
There was a special handmade quilt, and baby sized receiving blankets, in the same manner as the premature infant wing of the hospital where s5 was born.  It was an examining room, inside the facility that houses all branches of professionals dealing with these types of crises; domestic violence and sexual assault.  It is funded with local donations from churches and organizations, and grants.

My friend and her husband were taken aback yet determined to help, even if it was for months.  There were a few things that we didn't expect, that is setting her off:
1) s5 stutters and talks loud.  That is really grinding on her in the mornings especially, but really, most of the time.  

2) s5 interrupts when we are talking.  He has not learned not to do this; she expects me to scold him, ignore him, and finish with her first.
  If s5 throws a temper tantrum because I'm ignoring him, to talk to her, she expects me to punish him. harshly. and without listening to
   him.
3) There have been 2 appointments, regarding s5's physical exam, that have been mandatory follow ups.  She did not want to go with us, to ride in the van.  There was nobody else to go.  She made me call my social worker, to ask if there was any way to reschedule, have somebody else go, or if I could drive him alone.  The answer was no.  So... .she got in the van angry. Both times.

4) I arranged to have somebody else to go on the long drive to s5's pediatrician, on Monday.  The social worker did not call me back at all.  So she called her, called her supervisor, to complain about the lack of communication.  The social worker ran the background of the lady I had arranged to go with us, but it was too late that day for her to finish signing our plan at social services, because they were about to close.  

5) There are NOT volunteer families to take in CPS victims.  I was told, by the social worker, that she would give me 45  minutes to call friends, to get somebody to take us in, and sign our "out of home safety plan" to agree to monitor s5 and I and make sure we were not alone.  IF, at the end of 45 minutes, I had not found somebody, then s5 would go with her, to an emergency foster placement; within 48 hours, there would be a court hearing, for the state to take custody of s5, and he would then be a foster child.  I would have to arrange visitation with the foster family and go live at the women's shelter, without s5.  HORRORs!

Because I had these friends, who knew of my situation for a few years now, and because she had inherited a large house, and was not using the upstairs at all, they had made arrangements, long ago, for s5 and I to live upstairs for a while.  They were expecting my call, any day, because I keep a small group of friends up to speed on what is going on with this chaos.  
When I called, during the 45 minute window, she answered.  She was expecting it.  They were prepared.  She and her husband had discussed it, over and over, long ago.  They had already decided, they were going to help. They were just waiting for the call.  They even had a tv set up upstairs for us, and a desk for us to do schoolwork.  MIRACLE!

6) I could tell, after the first full day of being in this house, there was something wrong.  
The husband and wife slept in incredibly late, until 10:30 ish, and told me, he suffers from anxiety and she suffers from depression.  I could tell.  The Christmas decorations were still half up or in in a heap in the living room floor.  There were dirty dishes, half eaten, and glasses with a little sour milk left in the bottoms, on the end tables and scattered around.  The houseplants were dead.  


7) So... .It has come to me, in the past 48 hours, that I recognize a set of her behaviors... .that match my husbands
But at least, there's a tool kit and helps here to help me handle those.  I dug into the SET and not JADE and validation lessons, and the 3 minute lesson on ending conflict.  

Yesterday, in the van on the long trip, I identified some of her triggers, that had set her off earlier.  They match some of my husbands.  She has to approve every choice I make, especially about how I choose to handle s5's needs and demands.  I am too gentle on him.  She calls him, "prince s5". I get devalued and scolded over parenting, and personal hygiene needs.  She does not acknowledge her wrongdoing, but projects those onto me.  She twists and exaggerates words and incidents.  It is dangerous.  Especially since she has the trust and ear of CPS.  With NO trauma training.  She said yesterday, she NEVER wants to hear again, how a therapeutic foster child would be parented.  I Justified, DEfended, and Explained (oops) that s5 has experienced trauma, and needs trauma informed parenting.  That my explanations of my parenting choices come after being disapproved of, by her. Food choices, strangely, are also scrutinized.  I hear a familiar relational dance, one I know well.  

So I tried to pull levers, validate, show empathy, etc.  But mostly, to be quiet.  Because the gentler I spoke, the angrier she got.  I was glad, to have my wearable recorder, to disprove any false allegations against me, of what I said and how I say it.  My friend, who took us in, seems borderline, with depression.  Pieces of her childhood history she shared, make sense how this developed over time.  

SO... .I may end up posting in the family member board, for help learning these skills and what to do, with HER, while we are here.  Her husband is in therapy.  He says she wont' go.  Her family let her inherit the homestead, while they were still living... .they were all living here together, and one day, her family said, they were moving out, somewhere else, and she could have it. Add that to having to move schools over and over due to her behaviors as a child, to the point of having to be homeschooled.  Poof.  I am with another person with a personality disorder.  

I wrote my attorney.  I am going to do the "directing traffic" thing we discussed earlier.  I thought of a timeline and a plan.  Remove my husband from our home.  Let me back in it.  Have my parents join me there, and sign the safety plan.  They will be with us, during the CPS thing.  and help me get s5 to doctors appointments in their state.  and help me put the house on the market.  When it's over, we can all go back to my home state, hopefully after Christmas, so I can start my practicum and internship.  Done.

Some of s5's services could transfer to the county in my homestate.  It would be up to a judge.  and CPS allowances.  Fingers crossed.  

There may be more meetings, with the detective.  I think s5 is done, but I am CERTAIN, the social worker will interview him alone, to find out if we are following the safety play.  I am afraid, if she asks him things like, have you ever been alone with mommy since you have been at this house? we might be in trouble.  We really haven't truly been alone though.  It could get worse.  Hope not.  

My attorney's assistant is available by phone or email, if it is urgent.  Like yesterday, when I thought my friend would call social services and s5 would go to foster care last night, she communicated very very well.  But her answer was to try to find another family and another place so live, quick.  

Dig

[livednlearned]

Dig,

Have you been interviewed independently from S5?

If you have an out of home safety plan then CPS is not convinced S5 is safe in your care.

It will not likely be due to the delayed reporting you mentioned because delayed reporting is not unusual. It is fairly common for there to be a delay in reporting because family members will often try to handle the issue internally, with degrees of denial to work through.

Mandatory reporting is primarily a legal technicality with fines associated, and is usually reserved for non-family members, so it likely isn't that, either, even tho you are working toward a degree in counseling.

There must be another reason why CPS is concerned about you. Any thoughts on what it could be?

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi LNL,
I was asked only one or two questions.  The first was to show the worker my Starbucks app, to show where I was that week on certain days.  
The second question she asked, was if I left a recorder in the house when I left S5 alone for a little while with him, the day in between when he disclosed and my reporting.  I told her I did.  

The social worker said, the reason for the heavy restrictions, is because I left him alone with him, even for a short while, after he told me.  She said that is the only thing.  

I am not at all likely to leave him with his dad, or be near his dad, ever again.  So I don't see what the issue is with S5 not being safe around me.  My perception is, this is a young social worker's personal use of power, as retribution for biological parenting choices she disapproves of.  That is my perception.  She stated, "You will NEVER be allowed to be ALONE with your child EVER, not for a VERY LONG TIME".  In an angry, condescending tone.

Other than that, I have no explanation.

The only thing I can think of, is the 30 second accidental voicemail recording of my fussing as s5 and spanking him, when I was trying to hear the attorney on the phone and s5 disobeyed me and my parents and came up there where I was on the phone, started talking and whining to me so badly, I had to hang up with the attorney.  Of all times for him to do that.  The five minutes I actually have an attorney on the phone, he disobeys.  So, that recording shows me pretty unusually angry with s5.  I haven't been that upset with s5 ever.
That's the only thing I can think of.  But my husband did not have time to play that for her, or discuss that with her.  

I gave the detective flash drive copies of the audio recording, where s5 started disclosing in the van, and the video, where he finished describing where it happened, in the house.  Hopefully, that will clear me of coaching him, leading him, or saying anything I shouldn't have.

I was not told of any other reason, besides that I left him alone with him that hour or so, with the recorder set up.  Which, it was set up to get undeniable evidence, if it were to happen again.  I was not sure completely that my husband had not coached s5 to say those things, to set me up to go to social services. It is fairly well known, those cases go badly for mothers around here, and the father usually ends up with sole custody of the kids, especially if the child recants, or purgers themselves.  Mothers are often successfully blamed for coaching the child to say things.  

I left the recorder, with a hope and a prayer, s5 would be alright, that it might record just enough to have undeniable evidence, enough to save s5 for the rest of his life, if the recordings of his disclosure weren't enough.  That, the social worker says, is the reason for the restrictions.  

There is a book, A Mother's Nightmare- Incest: A Practical Legal Guide for Parents and Professionals, by John E. B. Myers.
This can help the boards learn about how CPS sexual abuse allegations occur, and the process.  I read it back in the fall of 2017, so it wasn't fresh in my mind, but I remembered some of the pitfalls, but not all of them, as it happened to us in real life.  

I don't understand why this is in place.  I am not an immediate danger to s5.  I am all he has.  He needs me, and his normal routine, and our home.  We need our home, not suitcases and a hostile imposition on friends situation.  We need to be able to go to church, appointments, and homeschool group.  It's awful. I certainly don't think that taking s5 into state custody, and taking me away from s5 would be the best interest of s5.  Not at all.  I would be ok, but he wouldn't.  This social worker was going to do that, after 45 minutes had passed, if I couldn't find friends to stay with.  She wouldn't even let us stay at the women's shelter like we did before.  I think she may have made some of these decisions on her own, and they were wrong.  I hope.  Maybe my attorney can get to the bottom of it.  

I have networked a lot today, trying to find a back up family and place to stay.  My best guess is, my friend who took us in shows diagnosable traits, possibly borderline, along with depression.  I am hoping, her mood and "switch" will flip back just to peaceful, as unexplained as it flipped to angry.  I think I identified a few triggers to avoid, but validation and empathy do not work! She calls that patronizing.  I am searching the tools and workshops.  She is different than my husband, but some things are familiar.  I'd like to keep this together, to avoid losing s5 altogether.

The only other thing I can possibly think of, is the social worker is really upset that she thinks I should have known better than to leave him there and not report, especially due to my counseling degree.  Something about my masters in counseling intimidates her.  Maybe she thinks I have conversational skills to manipulate s5? That's a little nuts if that's the case.  Counselors don't impose their own values and beliefs onto anyone, they help clients to figure those out for themselves, by asking questions and using active listening skills. 

Im drawing a blank.

Dig.

[Turkish]

What do you mean by "biological parenting choices?"

[sweetheart]

Here in the UK when CPS are involved with a family at the level of 'Child Protection' which your situation equates to they are measuring levels of risk to each child.
The reason they have put in place a plan whereby you are not to be alone with s5 is because you intentionally left him alone with his father after he disclosed his father was sexually abusing him.
Here in UK in law this means that a child who has already been exposed to significant harm from abuse has not been protected from risk of further significant harm by their caregiver.

That you reported the situation to CPS is probably the only reason your son is still in your care. The social worker is being like she is because in her eyes you exposed your son to the possibility of being abused again by his father. This is their default MO.

Again where Child Protection Plans are in place, designated social workers are not making unilateral decisions, all their decision making processes and plans have to be signed off by their team lead. This is the law here, and I'm sure also where you are.

How likely is it that on being interviewed by CPS your son is to say how the situation is with your friends, has he overheard the comments by your friend about being spanked and naughty?
I understand that you are in a very precarious situation at the moment, but keeping your son in this situation is also going to be detrimental to his emotional well-being.
CPS will be wanting you to demonstrate that you are able to prioritise your son's needs above all else.
Apart from foster care, was anything else offered by way of supportive accommodation? There are shelters here in UK where trained staff are able to chaperone parents and children in order for them to remain together. Would it be possible to ask if there are any other alternatives given the emotionally unstable nature of the house you are now in?

[livednlearned]

What in the world would a Starbucks app tell her?

I was not told of any other reason, besides that I left him alone with him that hour or so, with the recorder set up.  Which, it was set up to get undeniable evidence, if it were to happen again.

I left the recorder, with a hope and a prayer, s5 would be alright, that it might record just enough to have undeniable evidence, enough to save s5 for the rest of his life, if the recordings of his disclosure weren't enough.  That, the social worker says, is the reason for the restrictions.

Dig, can you see how CPS/social worker would find this alarming?

We're here to support you. Sometimes that means pointing out things that are difficult. No one on this board does things perfectly, we all had to get through crises and many of us made missteps along the way.

Like sweetheart mentioned, CPS could be thinking: S5 was raped by dad Monday night, he reports it to his mom on Tuesday, and on Wednesday she leaves him alone with his dad because she needs him to be molested (or something) again, this time with proof. She waits until Thursday after the drive thru and an important homeschool meeting to report what happened Monday.

Mom wants to be a social worker, the same profession as the person evaluating S5's rape. Meaning, you would expect mom to make choices that reflect how a social worker thinks and acts.

Something like that?

CPS is not law enforcement. They exist to protect the welfare of children. Could it seem calculating to them that you exposed S5 for the purposes of strengthening your case?

I agree with sweetheart, too, that the social worker is not making unilateral decisions. CPS is designed to distribute the decision-making and take a team approach. It's likely that other things are going into this decision.

Also -- are you certain it's legal where you live to record someone without consent in her home? That might be something you run by your lawyer.

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi LNL, sweetheart,

Yes, you make excellent points about their concerns.  That may be what they are thinking.  While I see their point, that I made that choice that was awful to make, I do not know how I can present my rationale for that from my angle and perspective.

The possibility of s5's disclosure being discounted as something I coached him to do, when I didn't; plus the possibility of s5 recanting if the consequences of leaving home and his daddy were too much... .those add up to his dad having unsupervised joint custody.  I knew I had to make an attempt at protecting s5 from that outcome.  It was an awful choice between 2 evils... .an hour more in danger or the real possibility of the rest of his childhood in the unsupervised shared custody of a sexual perpetrator. 

I wish I knew how to say that in such a way, that my intent in protecting him was so profound and yes, calculated, that I made that sacrifice of safety, for one more hour or so. 

The explainable, urgent, calculated reason for that choice in that circumstance has passed.  There will be no more situations like that, there is a protection order in place and that is not something I would ever put us in a place to endure that again.  For that reason, the restrictions on not ever being alone with s5, not even to drive to town for school and appointments seems unreasonable.  I would most definitely go through their requirements of parenting classes, but it seems this restriction could be lifted so that I could provide what s5 needs, to get to town for his activities and appointments with the agreement that I would cooperate.

Maybe this arrangement could be made. 

Regarding the team approach to the cps decision, the social worker consulted with her supervisor once that I am aware of, regarding a special request I made, to keep us together for s5's medical needs while sleeping at night.  That one special request was granted.

I do not understand the social worker's fixation on preventing me from talking to s5 or having conversations with him without someone listening.  That is the social worker's rationale for the supervised transportation, to prevent my talking to him. 

The only thing I can think of about that, has to do with preparing for a criminal trial of my husband.  That they may be trying to prevent my being accused of coaching s5. 

I do not understand why they have not arrested my husband, except that the detective knows, without my husband's income, I have no funds coming in.  The detective went out of town for a week, and is now back.  He has been the most understanding and helpful person throughout the years.  My guess on the delay has to do with my need to gather cash as my husbands next paychecks come in. I don't know for sure.

I am allowed in this state to record where I am living, and at least to record myself.  So, I could play my words for someone else, to prove I did not say something that my host may accuse me of, and certainly not in the tone of voice she has accused me of saying it.

It may be, that I cannot play their words in a legal situation, but I definitely can record myself.  I think someone else on the boards mentions that.

My parents home has severe flooding damage on the lowest level in the home and needs my help.  I need them to help with the cps requirements.  There is no one else family or friends here to help and the shelter is not an option again.  I am going to ask my attorney to request an emergency special circumstance transfer out of state.  It is the best thing for s5 and myself at this point. Fingers crossed. 

Dig
Dig

[worriedStepmom]

The possibility of s5's disclosure being discounted as something I coached him to do, when I didn't; plus the possibility of s5 recanting if the consequences of leaving home and his daddy were too much... .those add up to his dad having unsupervised joint custody.  I knew I had to make an attempt at protecting s5 from that outcome.  It was an awful choice between 2 evils... .an hour more in danger or the real possibility of the rest of his childhood in the unsupervised shared custody of a sexual perpetrator. 

I wish I knew how to say that in such a way, that my intent in protecting him was so profound and yes, calculated, that I made that sacrifice of safety, for one more hour or so. 

I understand your reasoning and your fears of your husband.  They don't.  To CPS - this sounds paranoid.  The bottom line to them is that you put your son in danger now because of a fear of some nebulous harm that may or may not occur in the future. 

I do not understand the social worker's fixation on preventing me from talking to s5 or having conversations with him without someone listening.  That is the social worker's rationale for the supervised transportation, to prevent my talking to him. 

... .

I do not understand why they have not arrested my husband, except that the detective knows, without my husband's income, I have no funds coming in.  The detective went out of town for a week, and is now back.  He has been the most understanding and helpful person throughout the years.  My guess on the delay has to do with my need to gather cash as my husbands next paychecks come in. I don't know for sure.

These 2 items taken together strongly imply that they don't fully believe your son.  I would be shocked for a detective to not arrest someone on child rape just to allow him to earn money - they don't like to leave predators on the street.

I think that you are in more trouble than you recognize at the moment.  Is your lawyer experienced with dealing with CPS?

[JNChell]

Dig, I don’t really have anything to add that will be constructive for you. However, with what you’ve shared and the advice and feedback that you are receiving, it may be wise to start discussing a contingency plan with your attorney. Best of luck.

[I Am Redeemed]

Dig,

Have you had any type of child and family team meeting with the cps personnel? Usually these meetings include team leaders and supervisors. Has cps told you anything about how long you will be under these restrictions? What would they require for them to be lifted?

The police and cps conduct investigations very differently, and their burden of proof is also different. The police may need more than just a disclosure from a child to file charges, because a criminal conviction requires a preponderance of the evidence.

Cps, however, can basically do what they want just by saying that they have decided it is "more likely than not." And they don't show any proof of the "evidence", nor are they asked to by family court.

I think cps does believe your son, but they are treating you as if you contributed to his endangerment. The police may also believe it, but may need to gather a solid foundation for bringing charges.

Stay on top of your lawyer, she is your best bet for getting your restrictions lifted. The situation you are in currently does not sound sustainable, and this social worker sounds like she is putting unrealistic expectations on you and also that she doesn't have your son's true best interests in mind. I have found that to be true in mown experience, and it is very disheartening.

You are strong. You are brave. God bless you and keep you, and make his face to shine upon you and s5.

Redeemed

[livednlearned]

there is a protection order in place and that is not something I would ever put us in a place to endure that again

Do you think the timing of that protective order is giving CPS cause for suspicion?

Your H asked for a separation/divorce Thursday morning. Shortly after you filed the protective order (for abuse that took place prior to his announcement).

That is asking CPS to believe that two unrelated things both happened the same day.

Could it be that to CPS it looks like you only reported the abuse because the marriage was falling apart?
Or that you were frantic to gain some kind of legal advantage in anticipation of a custody dispute?