PART 2 My one best line re: breaking news I'm in counseling. Need advice

[formflier]

  especially as there has been a lot of dealing with his emotional issues and needs since (starting 2 hours after the end of the conversation and continuing since), which has effectively put me back in the place where his needs have to be my top priority, which wasn't the point at all. My two T sessions since have been mostly about him still. 

Can you expand on this... .a lot.

I'm going to guess that will fill in lots of blanks for me.

On the one hand... .I obviously have lots of questions about your current "tactical" choices (you have the strategy right).

When I read the quoted part... .I begin to question if you have the strategy right.

I don't understand your role in his emotions.  One of my favorite phrases is "let him connect the dots"... .mostly... .you shouldn't be around while he fiddles with his "dots".

and... to connect this to the sex thing.

When he does come around and he has his dots in order... .you need to "tell" him that in various ways which are consistent.  So that he "knows" he has the "dots" correct.



FF

[BetterLanes]

Can you help me understand the feelings you have for your husband?

FF

That's the ten thousand dollar question, isn't it  That's really what I need space and focus to think about. Lori Boul already said she can't help!

"In this book I have deliberately avoided talking about love - simply because there are no methods or techniques that can make people fall in or out of love. Love is a highly complex emotion that has defied adequate scientific explanation."

WRT my role in my H's emotions, he has very little ability to self-soothe and wants a lot of attention, physical touching and verbal communication/reassurance from me. If he doesn't have anything sensible to say he will say more or less any random comment just to receive a response. He talked most of the way through my TV costume drama the other day (heinous). If he doesn't receive physical and verbal feedback right away he interprets it as rejection and this increases the negative feelings (and then he is able to blame me for them). This is not compatible with me having space to think about my own feelings.

He told me the T asked him in their phone chat whether he was getting a divorce, and he answered that he thought so after the conversation a fortnight ago, but didn't think so now. The answer I am currently giving out to "Do you love me?" is just a straight "Yes". He is nowhere near ready emotionally for that to be nuanced in any way. ("Well honey, I definitely told myself that, but it's possible my feelings were caused by a process of early enmeshment caused by my own psychological difficulties, followed by trauma bonding and intermittent reinforcement. I'm working on figuring that out. Don't worry, I'll be sure to let you know.") It's tough on him because I am simultaneously wanting him to stand down in terms of the abusive/controlling behaviors, and man up in terms of emotional self-regulation and responsibility, and I'm not sure to what extent he has the capability to do both those things.

I really want as a next step to find out from his T sessions what are the underlying issues if any. If it is autism, I can start reading some more books (yep) about that. I said to the Relate counsellor quite a while back that I can see there are a lot of issues to be fixed in the ways we relate to each other, but I didn't know what my feelings (and indeed his) would actually be about the relationship if those issues were all fixed, because they made up such a big proportion of the relationship. If you remember I was planning to present my H with the whole BPD-annulment idea to give him also a get-out clause if he wasn't sufficiently bothered about the relationship to fix the issues, but it turned out that he currently is sufficiently bothered.

My date deadline is to have all this at least on the way to being sorted out in time for our 20th wedding anniversary 9 months from now. For that I want to either do something meaningful indicating that we are both committed to the marriage (like renewal of vows level of meaningful, which is technically correct for a marriage where a cause for annulment exists anyway) or be done. I don't want to fake my way through some event for social purposes. I know that is quite ambitious for a timescale and I'm not expecting for everything to be roses and stardust in the relationship by that date. This is more about making decisions and examining both our feelings based on the new information that arises as my H becomes increasingly aware of the relationship issues and hopefully increasingly self-aware.

Hopefully that does fill in some blanks FF!

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

It does help fill in the gaps somewhat.

A few big picture things.

Clarity of communications from you... .and succinctness. 

I like leaving out nuance... .solid work!  Take that same mindset and apply it to many many many other areas of your life/relationship.

Ie (are we getting a divorce)... .your answer (No... we're doing therapy)  Now... .do not get pinned down on "not ever" or "promise" or any of that.

People don't get guaranteed futures... that's life. 

Now... .what I would hope that you can add to "Yes" for  I love you (and other things) is some acknowledgment of tough feelings (validation if you will)  Again... short.

This is a bit of unique thread because it is unusual to have such a "compliant" partner.  I take from this that your hubby truly was in another world and thought he was doing the right thing to scream from the mountain top  "I love BetterLanes" 

I'm not suggesting he doesn't have dysfunction of some sort going on... .I would be shocked if he doesn't.  That being said... .for almost 20 years this has worked for him and he likely believed it was working for you.

Please imagine the shock. 

Read your posts... there are lots of things in there about "what's going on" with your hubby and what's going to be figured out.  Weigh that against the amount of time and effort figuring out "what's going on " with BetterLanes.

I'm not suggesting this in a "blame" way... .I'm suggesting this in a "leadership" way.  You seem to be the one to initiate this massive change in the relationship.  The faster you figure out where you want to go with YOU and what's up with YOU... .the sooner it will "appear" that there are stable "goalposts"

I would hope you can appreciate the circular quality of the "argument" that you might send back of "Well... it depends on what we figure out with my hubby"

Guess what...

He is likely thinking "well... we'll have to see what gets figured out with BetterLanes... "

Of the two of you... which is most likely to be more "emotionally grounded"? 

FF

[BetterLanes]

Hi FF,

Thank you, a sound assessment as usual! I agree very much it was a shock for my H to hear these things. I once had a conversation in which I was challenging described by the other party as "like being savaged by a squirrel". Which of us are you identifying as the "compliant" partner? If it's my H, then I'm taking into account the surprising and unexpected nature of his own recent squirrel-savaging by me when gauging the likelihood of longer-term compliance. He has an introductory T session tonight so we will see what he gathers from that.

You are absolutely right that I have been focused on figuring out "what's going on" with my H rather than with myself while posting to this board. The logic/history goes like this:

My H behaved in ways that made me very unhappy about being married to him.
+
I believed that the marriage was indissoluble according to God's commandments.
+
My H had a track record of reacting badly and with anger/resentment to actual or implied questioning of our relationship (where "implied" could mean for example any failure to comply immediately with requests for physical contact). This meant that raising such questions resulted in increased unhappiness. Creating increased unhappiness in an indissoluble marriage does not seem like a good strategy.

Given these inputs, I believed that there was no action I could take to improve the relationship, and that only God was in a position to effect any change. My selected strategy was to ignore as much as possible of the unhappiness and wait for divine intervention. (It is very, very rare for me to be at so much of an impasse that I cannot form a plan of positive problem-solving action at all, but there I was.)

So then ~4 months ago I found out two key facts:
(1) My H's strange patterns of behavior seemed a good fit for being explained by a personality disorder.
(2) You can get a marriage annulment if a spouse has a personality disorder.

So it appears it is possible that the marriage is not in fact indissoluble. As you can see this possibility is a massive game-changer, as it would free me to express my feelings and request behavior changes from my H, without being required to remain in the marriage regardless of the possibly quite extreme consequences of doing that. So as you have correctly identified FF, my focus during the time I have been posting on this board has been on ensuring that I can definitely have that conversation. Most of my T and MC sessions have been mostly directed towards that, and the same with my research into BPD and "what's going on" with my H, and my research into annulments / separation / divorce. All directed to finding out is there something identifiably wrong with my H (rather than two "regular" people having regular relationship difficulties), and does that something mean that God would be okay with me at least causing a separation? I needed to know all this before getting to the point of having a potentially relationship-rupturing conversation with my H. I've reached that point and had that conversation now (although it was not by any means a complete disclosure of my feelings / requests, it was plenty enough for his level of emotional resilience to handle).

So the next steps (back with a plan) I believe are:
(1) Stop talking with my T about my H and start talking about me (she will be pleased).
(2) See what happens between my H and his prospective T tonight and whether he decides to continue with that. Any progress towards answering the question "BPD, autism, or nothing really with a label", and any evidence of a capacity for self-examination and self-help by my H, will help me to clarify my feelings and attitudes about the relationship. Although the books I have read in the last ~4 months have mainly been helpful with regards to getting me to the point of confrontation, it is possible that they were the wrong books for working through the relationship issues in the longer term.
(3) Try to gauge the extent of my H's and my changes in relationship behaviors.
(4) Examine and disclose my emotions and feelings about the relationship to the extent that is possible depending on my H's progress in developing emotional resilience in (2). This may occur in the context of working through Lori Boul's book together. 

FF, you are right that these are all circular and feed into each other, I'm aware of that. Unfortunately due to the considerations of God's will and my H's behavior/emotional characteristics, it was never as simple as figuring out what I wanted of the relationship and expressing it, and it really still isn't. Nowhere in the Bible does it say to follow your heart and trust your gut - indeed the opposite, "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure." I am currently also still struggling to get any space to figure me out at this stage of the process. It is on my "still to do" list but I am pretty confident it will happen.

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

I love Biblical discussions about the heart.

FF homework challenge... .

Post the NIV version of Proverbs 4:23.

Then post  some thoughts on how that has played out up to this point... .and how you hope it will play out going forward.

Keep up the good work BetterLanes!

FF

[formflier]

BetterLanes

What's going on in your relationship these days?

FF

[BetterLanes]

Hi Formflier, thank you for asking! I am working up to a post about this.

My H has had six therapy sessions and is taking GABA for anxiety and melatonin for sleep issues. He is much less anxious now, which makes the situation more peaceful. He is still critical and often negative.

Although my H's T was not interested in making a diagnosis beyond anxiety and separation anxiety, my H has self-diagnosed with Asperger's/ASD (autism spectrum disorder). This is a better fit than BPD for his behaviors and attitudes and the relationship issues. I have been reading Karen Rowlands' book "Asperger Marriage and Relationships: Insights from the Front Line". She has written an autobiography of the relationship called "Walking on Eggshells".

A number of the relationship behaviors and issues resulting from Asperger's/ASD are similar to those resulting from BPD. There is a recent study here
https://www.autismresearchtrust.org/News/borderline-personality-disorder-or-autism
(paper at https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0184447&type=printable)
"To our knowledge, this is the first study to investigate autistic traits, empathizing and systemizing
abilities in ASC [autistic spectrum conditions], BPD, comorbid ASC+BPD, and controls... .We are only aware of one previous
study that reported results with the AQ [Autism Quotient, a test for autistic traits] in people with BPD. Out of 38 women with BPD, almost half of them scored above the cut-off of the AQ. The difference on the AQ between the BPD and the ASC group was not statistically significant in our random sample, suggesting that
people with BPD may have as high levels of autistic traits as people with ASC. This finding
would need to be replicated in a larger sample but is in line with the idea that some females
with BPD have undiagnosed ASC, due to ASC not being easily detected in females."

I have finally gotten an appointment with Catholic Marriage Care and had one telephone counselling session, with another coming up on Wednesday.

I hope to post soon (or we can split this thread) about the relationship features for which BPD was a good explanation that also fit with autism/ASD as a good explanation, and some of the differences I observe in my H.

More soon,

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

Focus on the behavior... .not the "correct diagnosis"

My wife is likely much more PPD than BPD.  That being said... .those distinctions are more for professionals.  

I hope you focus on what you see and deal with every day.

Sounds like there is general movement in a better direction!   

FF