Part 2: Would you consider this behavior frightening?

[livednlearned]

Is this because of violence/abuse?

No, not violence/abuse.

He was engaged in chronic legal abuse (former trial attorney) in our case, and the judge put a gatekeeping order on him (didn't work). The high conflict/disordered behaviors once directed at me were shifted to the judge. The judge requested anger management classes, a second psyche eval, parenting classes, substance abuse treatment. When ex showed no sign of complying, the judge agreed to granting me full custody.

Ex did not take it well and disappeared from our son's life. He will occasionally text him. It's never asking about S17, it's usually pictures of ex with attractive women and things he has cooked. Some of them are the same things he posts publicly on FB, so they're more of a "look at me" than "how are you doing?"

I suppose a child advocacy center might be able to teach those skills post separation/divorce?

I learned them here, and from books like the one Wentworth describes (the best one, for my situation).

The skills are about raising emotionally resilient kids when one parent has a PD.

Say that ex called S17 a no good pumpkin head who has a donkey tail because I fornicated with four-legged animals.

Old parenting: "Your dad loves you very much and you don't have a pumpkin head. I absolutely did not do what he said I did and I will tell him not to say that to you."

Old parenting gets down to ex's level and validates his distortions by giving them a direct response, using son as a communication chamber.

New parenting: "Wow. How did you feel when he said that?"  "Why do you think he would say something like that?"  "I don't understand why he would say that. I am here for a hug and a listen when you feel like talking."

New parenting deftly removes ex from the conversation and focuses on the emotional intelligence of your child, getting him to become aware that what he feels is valid, demonstrating that he has a loving adult who puts those feelings first, which is the natural role of a parent. Most BPD parents reverse that role, expecting emotional validation from the child, which they can feel but often have no words for.

There are other skills, more age dependent. And different skills depending on how bad the alienation is.

A BPD parent tends to put the child right in the middle of your adult conflict. So we have to dissolve that middle position instead of engaging it.

I don't mean to oversimplify it. These are easy skills to understand and harder to put into practice in real life when the context is always shifting and conversations move quickly.

[NeedsHelp]

He was engaged in chronic legal abuse (former trial attorney) in our case, and the judge put a gatekeeping order on him (didn't work). The high conflict/disordered behaviors once directed at me were shifted to the judge.

A BPD parent tends to put the child right in the middle of your adult conflict. So we have to dissolve that middle position instead of engaging it.

I don't mean to oversimplify it. These are easy skills to understand and harder to put into practice in real life when the context is always shifting and conversations move quickly.

So he pretty much "dug his own grave" and "showed his true colors," so to speak.

Yes, this is exactly what H does with no regard or empathy for S's feelings or clue that he is throwing him straight into the middle of arguments. Last time he threatened separation it was right in front of S and right after he allowed him to fall into the deep end of a pool to "teach him a lesson." S has no siblings to help buffer any of this either. This is another reason I find myself constantly catering to H, trying to protect my S.

I definitely need to read or listen to that book. I am always afraid if I tell my S that H's behaviors/comments about him are iconsiderate/inaccurate it will get back to H and there will be another battle to face. It will become my fault for critisizing H.

[livednlearned]

So he pretty much "dug his own grave" and "showed his true colors," so to speak.

He was a former trial attorney representing himself. His true colors were not buffered by an attorney and the judge got a pretty clear picture of him.

I am always afraid if I tell my S that H's behaviors/comments about him are iconsiderate/inaccurate it will get back to H and there will be another battle to face. It will become my fault for critisizing H.

Your son knows the behaviors/comments are off.

Kids know. They may not have the words. They definitely have the feelings.

Our job is to help them trust those feelings.

They are desperately looking for direction from adults, from you. When they get the right response, they feel it and know it's true.

We build on this, one small effort at a time.

The hardest is when the BPD parent is abusing them and you have to stand by helplessly. If you are dealing with a safety issue, sometimes the best you can do is repair and recover with your son after the abuse. When I intervened, it only made things worse.

So I got ready to leave. My son started to have suicidal ideation at age 8 and that was the point I realized there's no choice, we had to go. I took a year to prepare my exit, and had a safety plan with multiple contingencies so I would not be too financially exposed.

There is nothing easy about any of this, and it is no walk in the park to leave your child with a BPD parent. The significant upside, however, is that your child is no longer in a chronic state of stress and anxiety -- there is an opportunity for those cortisol levels to come down when he's with you, in your home, with no abuse. And you start to get your strength back, making it easier to learn these skills and practice them with your son in a safe environment.

[I Am Redeemed]

In your case, was your H physically violent toward you, or controlling/manipulative? The contolling part for me is very difficult because my S doesn't even know that the majority of how I live life right now is to please H. I know that is setting a bad example, but I am not sure at what age he will realize what's really going on. H can be so charming in public and in front of friends.

I am sorry you are going through what you are too, and I will pray for you and your S2 too.

Thank you NeedsHelp,

Yes, my uBPDh was physically violent, as well as controlling, manipulative, emotionally and verbally abusive. He sometimes would threaten to check the odometer on the car, to see if I had been driving more miles than it took to go where I said I was going. He would destroy my property. He smashed at least two, maybe three phones of mine. Once I was driving my father's car, and he began to dysregulate and rage. He demanded I take him 45 minutes away to his mother's house, and he threw the gearshift into "park" while I was driving. He took money from me, he lied about everything, he gambled our money away, he constantly criticized and blamed me for everything- even things like the car suddenly needing repairs. He would say that my driving was the cause of the car needing to be repaired, and he would rage about it. He was super jealous and constantly threatened by any outside activity  I might have. It's a wonder I was able to keep my current job. He would dysregulate right before I was supposed to leave for work and I was constantly late. Sometimes he forced me to call in because he "needed me at home" and he liked to refer to me going to work when I was scheduled as me "running off to that job again."

He also had a recurring substance abuse problem, which only made the uBPD symptoms worse, plus threw a whole psychotic element in there that had lasting effects even during sober periods.

We are separated, and he is still a boundary buster and still trying to control, only he also tries to be manipulative to make me think that he is NOT trying to control me. This takes on various forms. Just tonight he went on a rambling tangent about how I went through traumatic things before he met me, and talked about my r/s with my late father, and said that probably because of the tense r/s I had with my dad that I sometimes think other people are trying to control me when they are really "just looking out for me". I recognized that as him trying to put the blame for what is still his attempt at controlling behavior off on me- "it's not me, it's you, you are taking your experience with your father and reacting to me as if I were him."

It's subtle, but I am catching the signs. Just because someone stops screaming, cursing, insulting, threatening and hitting you doesn't mean they have changed. He has just changed tactics, with the same agenda. I'm trying hard to learn how to set boundaries, and it is challenging. He doesn't like boundaries, so he has resorted to being more manipulative than outright bullying. He knows that I won't accept that anymore. He still thinks he can manipulate me. It's very exhausting and patience-trying.

I know that my son didn't realize how much of what I did was to appease or avoid conflict with my h. I do know that the violence affected him. He started to whine or cry out of anxiety if my husband got close to me, because he didn't know if he was about to hurt me again or not. I knew it was time to go when that happened, and in my case I was lucky that I had support from my coworkers because I didn't leave with a plan. It was a desperate decision, kind of a "now or never" thing. I wish I had started forming a plan long before it got so bad, but we have made it.

I hope to model healthy behaviors for my son, and give him a peaceful and secure environment. Currently I have a protective order, and any visitation s2 has with his father is at my discretion. If we do end up divorcing, though, that will probably change.

I hope you can get the support you need to make the best plan for you and your son.

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

[NeedsHelp]

Just because someone stops screaming, cursing, insulting, threatening and hitting you doesn't mean they have changed.

I do know that the violence affected him. He started to whine or cry out of anxiety if my husband got close to me, because he didn't know if he was about to hurt me again or not. I knew it was time to go when that happened, and in my case I was lucky that I had support from my coworkers because I didn't leave with a plan.

I hope to model healthy behaviors for my son, and give him a peaceful and secure environment. Currently I have a protective order, and any visitation s2 has with his father is at my discretion. If we do end up divorcing, though, that will probably change.

I hope you can get the support you need to make the best plan for you and your son.

This is true I know, but for some reason the hope is always there that they are changing, right before something bad happens again.

This sort of sounds like my s. He sometimes gets upset and says "no no no!" if h and I are in the same room. He feels the tension and is used to me staying busy to avoid conflict and trying to step in as best I can when h does something alarming to s. I know this is not healthy but am so afraid things will be worse if I am gone and they are alone together. I think I have read to many horror stories now about trying to protect your child and being the one put on trial.

I am still working on support and know I have to keep taking steps. I am sorry for what you are going through and wish you and your s the very best.

[ForeverDad]

This is true I know, but for some reason the hope is always there that they are changing, right before something bad happens again.

We sometimes use roller coasters as an example.  At first they're exhilarating, scary fun.  We are wired to crave the initial thrills, however those thrills fade over time with repetition.  That's why amusement parks are always building newer, different coasters, to lure the patrons to ride the latest new thrill.  Imagine if you had to ride a coaster all day, every day - and no aspirin.  Before long you'd be suffering motion sickness and who knows what else.  So we typically pose the question, "Will you get off the coaster the next time it rolls into the platform and thereby avoid the next sickening cycle?"

Have you ridden the coaster in Disney's Space Mountain?  It's all dark, you can't see the next turn or dive as you're whipsawed every which way.  Yes, like our lives around BPD behaviors.

[Radcliff]

I am always afraid if I tell my S that H's behaviors/comments about him are iconsiderate/inaccurate it will get back to H and there will be another battle to face. It will become my fault for critisizing H.

The key to this is LnL's advice to take your husband out of the equation.  Don't directly contradict what he says.  If your son says, "Dad said I have donkey whiskers," then you say, "Let me tell you a story about the day you were born.  When I first saw you, the first thing I noticed was those lovely brown eyes, and I fell in love with you instantly."  If your husband teaches him that it's manly to be rough with people and things, praise him when you see him being gentle, "You are being so gentle with that ladybug; I bet she feels safe on your hand."

RC

[NeedsHelp]

"Will you get off the coaster the next time it rolls into the platform and thereby avoid the next sickening cycle?"

Have you ridden the coaster in Disney's Space Mountain?  It's all dark, you can't see the next turn or dive as you're whipsawed every which way.  Yes, like our lives around BPD behaviors.

I want off and want the best possible life for my S. Of couse, H has been on best behavior again and S has been happy to see H, once again making me feel like I am just going crazy and imagined all the other things that have happened. H also has made a total wreck of the finances, with massive credit card debt. I have tried to stay away from touching anything in his name, and I have no idea where all the money is going with all the businesses. I see bank statements that are constantly overdrawn with fees being charged, but I dare not question or critisize him because he will somehow say it is my fault and threaten D again. Does anyone have suggestions on how I could find out what is going on without directly questioning him or where I might go to get some help with this? He deals with cash and I do worry about how he handles it because we are married. He has had tax returns filed the past couple years on both our behalf without me even signing anything. This has been very scary, but again the fear of him being alone with our son, in the instance of a D, has led me to allow all sorts of things I normally would not.

[Harley Quinn]

It's great to hear from you.  A DV service may be able to offer legal and financial advice.  It's worth checking out.  A lot of women in similar situations will have these types of struggles to contend with.  Did you manage to make contact with an advocate for support?  I was surprised at the scope of the services that were offered when I did this.  They covered a great deal and things I'd not thought of as being possible came together for me.  If not within their own service, they would be able to refer you to trusted sources who have relevant experience, I'm sure.

How are you feeling at the moment? 

Love and light x

[livednlearned]

H has been on best behavior again and S has been happy to see H, once again making me feel like I am just going crazy and imagined all the other things that have happened.

It might help to have a journal where you write down exactly what happened on one side of the page -- no editorializing. Just describe what happened, what he said, what he did, how you responded, what you did and said.

It helps to have something you can touch that represents what you experienced. Something you can read that is by you, for you.

[Harley Quinn]

Lived has a really good point.  When things are going 'well' the unhealthy experiences can become blurry.  I can relate to that entirely.  Another way to do this if you're pressed for time or concerned about a journal being discovered is to post about new incidents here as they happen, so that you have something to refer back to.  Definitely capture all that you are able to pin down now as the further away these incidents get the less clear they can become in your mind.  My entire r/s now feels like a lifetime ago and it has only been 18 months since it ended.  So much has happened since and the mind can have a way of archiving uncomfortable memories quickly as a means to cope.

Love and light x 

[NeedsHelp]

It's great to hear from you. Did you manage to make contact with an advocate for support?  I was surprised at the scope of the services that were offered when I did this. 

How are you feeling at the moment? 

Love and light x

Thank you. Thank you for your reply. I spoke with an advocate a couple months ago. Was hoping to again soon, as I feel I am being sucked back in and losing my strength. When his behavior toward S was frightening, it was clear to see I had to find a way out for myself and S. Now the behavior is not bad, and I am thinking I will forever be cast as a villian for leaving and S will not be safe alone with H. H had to have his M comitted to mental institutions many times throughout his lifetime to keep her out of jail. I think he knows the ropes as far as how to convince someone another person is crazy. I had a counselor, I was able to sneak off to, suggest that court mediators may be able to see through into what is really going on, but his behavior is so unpredictable. I think if he would show the angry/abusive side maybe they would see, but how he might respond is anyone's guess. He could totally pull of victim if it were only one or two sessions. I think he had the marriage conselor convinced for quite some time. Child care is still a challenge I face as well. I have someone who would watch S, but that person is out of town right now. I will keep trying. Thank you for the encoragement. :hug

[NeedsHelp]

It helps to have something you can touch that represents what you experienced. Something you can read that is by you, for you.

Thank you. I will keep journaling. It is getting tiring, but as I look back it does help remind me that some very messed up things really did happen, and in a pattern. I am sure there will be more, it's just anyone's guess what or when.

[Harley Quinn]

If he is behaving well right now, use this time wisely to gather some support, information and advice from professionals.  It can be all too easy to fall into old habits of enjoying things being good and putting off thinking about the next storm.  Help yourself be prepared for that 'what next' by arming yourself with knowledge.  Knowing what you are going to do, when and how, relieves a lot of the anxiety when situations inevitably occur again.  

[NeedsHelp]

When things are going 'well' the unhealthy experiences can become blurry.  I can relate to that entirely.  Another way to do this if you're pressed for time or concerned about a journal being discovered is to post about new incidents here as they happen, so that you have something to refer back to. 

Love and light x 

This is so true, especially with a young child who needs almost constant attention. You try to forget so you can move on and get through the day without dwelling on the negative and further upsetting your child, but you KNOW in your heart something is wrong and it builds. The other night H was trying to force S to lay on the floor with him and S did not want to and started crying and squirming. H looks to see if I'm watching and then lets him up shortly after. At least H let him up that time, but my guess is that if I weren't there he would have held him down even kicking and screaming until he gave up to show him who is in control. S had done nothing wrong. H just wanted to force him to lay on the floor with him. So I try to move on and be grateful I was there when it happened and he let him up. S is learning to keep H distracted and asks to play games at the table when H starts getting rough with him. I think he has picked up on that because I have done it a few times and sometimes works. I am grateful for that too. I think the distraction skills are useful, but also know they are not a definite "fix" for all the problems.

[NeedsHelp]

Another concern is that as more time passes the risk increases of someone applying a "duty to care" argument against you, saying that you had a responsibility to intervene.  I know the logistics are difficult but it's important to get in front of a local lawyer and ask how to balance the need for proof with "duty to care."  This would be a good thing to ask the shelter people, too.

WW

I still have not been able to meet with the advocate again. The person who could watch S is back in town, but now sick. I am wondering if you know what would be considered appropriate "intervention." I am writing down how I intervene at home and what has worked. Would keeping in contact with an advocate or trying to get H in for counseling again or parenting classes be considered intervention? Thank you for your help.

[Radcliff]

I still have not been able to meet with the advocate again. The person who could watch S is back in town, but now sick. I am wondering if you know what would be considered appropriate "intervention." I am writing down how I intervene at home and what has worked. Would keeping in contact with an advocate or trying to get H in for counseling again or parenting classes be considered intervention? Thank you for your help.

I am so sorry your thread hasn't been responded to in a timely fashion!  

What have you told the advocate in the past?  I believe the advocates are mandatory reporters of child abuse (it would be good to check this in your area).  If you have a good relationship with an advocate and are keeping them updated, that can be helpful -- you're being open with someone who's a mandatory reporter, which seems like pretty good evidence that you're exercising your duty to care.  Ideally you don't want to be surprised by a decision to report.  It would be helpful to understand the advocate's beliefs about what is reportable and what is not.  Different professionals have different opinions.  If things rise to a reportable threshold, then it is what it is.  You are going to want an advocate whose experience you trust.  A therapist is also a potential resource.  One thing that you can ask the professional you're working with is that if they decide things need to be reported, that you be present with them on the phone call to CPS, and that you make the report together.  That can change the dynamic of the beginning of the story.  Mother and therapist/advocate are coming to CPS together, therapist is not "telling on" an irresponsible mother.  An experienced advocate may also know or be able to identify from her network of contacts a CPS worker who is experienced and reasonable who can be approached personally, rather than going in the front door and catching whichever worker is taking new cases that day.

Please let us know how things have been going lately.

RC

[NeedsHelp]

 I believe the advocates are mandatory reporters of child abuse (it would be good to check this in your area).

 If you have a good relationship with an advocate and are keeping them updated, that can be helpful -- you're being open with someone who's a mandatory reporter, which seems like pretty good evidence that you're exercising your duty to care.

Please let us know how things have been going lately.

RC

Who would I ask to find this out? I thought everything I told them was confidential. The last time I was able to speak with an advocate was a couple months ago. Since then, H has been stopping any strange behaviors with S when he sees me looking and I have been able to create distractions. H has been working a lot and not home. Advocate did give me a card and said if anything happened and I needed help to call and they could pick me up. I am not sure if this would be a "safety plan."

[Radcliff]

Who would I ask to find this out? I thought everything I told them was confidential. The last time I was able to speak with an advocate was a couple months ago. Since then, H has been stopping any strange behaviors with S when he sees me looking and I have been able to create distractions. H has been working a lot and not home. Advocate did give me a card and said if anything happened and I needed help to call and they could pick me up. I am not sure if this would be a "safety plan."

You might be able to find out by checking their Web site.  Did you sign any intake paperwork when you first spoke to them?  Often the intake paperwork has disclosures about things being confidential except in the case of suspected child abuse.

Many states have this kind of policy:
"By law, mandated reporters are physicians, nurses, social workers, day care staff, teachers, ministers and law enforcement officials."
You can Google, "who are mandatory reporters in [your state]"
My guess is that the advocates would be considered mandatory reporters.  You could just straight up ask them.

Having them able to pick you up would be part of a safety plan.  It would include other things like making sure you had a cell phone that was safe, access to credit cards and cash, clothes, transportation, and other things you'd need to function.  The National Domestic Violence Hotline Web site is a great resource and has a page on the Path to Safety and one titled, What is Safety Planning?

One other thing that might be worth doing is calling the National Child Abuse Hotline.  Their number is 1-800-422-4453.  You're in a tough situation, and they won't have a magic solution, but it might be helpful to talk to someone.  If you call, let us know if you think it's helpful.

Besides your concerns about your son, how are things going otherwise?

RC

[livednlearned]

part of the safety plan might also be having duplicates of any important papers, or moving things you have nostalgic feelings about to a safe location, like a storage locker or friend's house. If you think there is a possibility you'll have to leave abruptly, it might also be wise to have a back-up purse somewhere, with a prepaid phone, a credit card, extra keys, some ID, and cash if that's doable.

My son's father would move my purse somewhere and then lock me out of the house, and (unwittingly) helped me walk through exactly what happens when you leave abruptly, with nothing 

So I ended up storing extra clothing and toiletries in a locker that I could access just in case.

Part of your safety plan might also be to learn what you can about how things work with CPS where you live, just in case there is a mandatory report that throws you into that system. Some states will post the CPS code/statutes (or whatever they're called) online, and some (like mine) have their training manuals online. 

[Radcliff]

Part of your safety plan might also be to learn what you can about how things work with CPS where you live, just in case there is a mandatory report that throws you into that system. Some states will post the CPS code/statutes (or whatever they're called) online, and some (like mine) have their training manuals online. 

I like this suggestion a lot.  There's a reasonable chance you'll have to be dealing with CPS, and it makes a lot of sense to learn as much as you can about your local conditions.  Learning online about information for your state as livednlearned suggests is a great start.  But reaching out to advocates and a lawyer or two and asking questions about the specific CPS office and experiences in your county is important, too.  Armed with real info, you'll be able to make much better decisions, and may see options you didn't see before.

RC

[NeedsHelp]

 Did you sign any intake paperwork when you first spoke to them?  Often the intake paperwork has disclosures about things being confidential except in the case of suspected child abuse.

Having them able to pick you up would be part of a safety plan.  It would include other things like making sure you had a cell phone that was safe, access to credit cards and cash, clothes, transportation, and other things you'd need to function.  

Besides your concerns about your son, how are things going otherwise?

RC

The first time I visited with her, she had me fill something out, but she did not require me to give my last name. I told her I was concerned about my identity being known and I was visiting because I wanted to know if it were possible I might be overreacting to behavior I was witnessing. I was hoping the answer would be yes. The last time I saw her she gave me a list of numbers I could anonymously call regarding H's behavior toward my S, since I told her I felt he is safer with me at this point as the attorney had advised me S would likely have unsupervised visits with H. I am able to intervene at home at this point and told her I think H has a mental illness that is causing his unpredictable behavior.

I am working on some of the other items you mentioned and was able to call one of the numbers but got voicemail.

I am meeting with a therapist soon and can discuss things with her. Just hoping childcare doesn't fall through.

I am feeling depressed, but hanging in there. H has been working a lot and distracted and not so focused on S, so that actually helps. I am going to try to update the advocate after I meet with the therapist.

[Radcliff]

You are doing a great job.  Doing the right thing here is hard.  It would be easy to dive into denial, or to panic and react without a plan.  You're keeping your head, keeping your son's well-being in the front of your mind, and doing your homework.  Keep making those calls and visits, and keep us posted.

How are you doing on self care?  Are you able to get out and spend time with friends?  Are there any mom's groups you could join to give each other support, enjoy time together, and swap child care?

RC

[NeedsHelp]

Part of your safety plan might also be to learn what you can about how things work with CPS where you live, just in case there is a mandatory report that throws you into that system. Some states will post the CPS code/statutes (or whatever they're called) online, and some (like mine) have their training manuals online.  

Thank you for this advice. I was able to find something online. It looked like (if I was reading it correctly) reports they decide to investigate are followed up on within 72 hours. If she had reported I think I would have heard something by now. I assume the advocate is waiting to hear back from me, as it was a few months between the times I have spoke with her in the past. I got the feeling she understood I am trying to keep my son as safe as possible under my care and preparing to make a quick exit if and when it is necessary. She did not seem pushy, but concerned and interested in helping.

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limit and was split.  Part 3 can be found here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329534.0