Request to talk about ‘future plans’ from W...thoughts?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

My W sent me an email requesting that we sit down to discuss future plans tonight. Does anyone that has been following my story have any thoughts on how I should handle the conversation?   Here are boundaries that I am contemplating:

No more talking about the affair
No more talking about needs/wants unless they are specific
Phone and internet will be cancelled if she is planning on keeping her phone blocked so I am unable to contact her
I will be visiting my grandparents for Thanksgiving and taking the kids with me.  (She claims that she must work the day before and after just as she claimed prior to our last visit but she ended up figuring out a way to go)
I am sure there are more.  I can and will follow through with all of the above boundaries. 

WC

[Woodchuck]

My W sent me an email requesting that we sit down to discuss future plans tonight. Does anyone that has been following my story have any thoughts on how I should handle the conversation?   Here are boundaries that I am contemplating:

No more talking about the affair
No more talking about needs/wants unless they are specific
Phone and internet will be cancelled if she is planning on keeping her phone blocked so I am unable to contact her
I will be visiting my grandparents for Thanksgiving and taking the kids with me.  (She claims that she must work the day before and after just as she claimed prior to our last visit but she ended up figuring out a way to go)
I am sure there are more.  I can and will follow through with all of the above boundaries. 

WC

[Notwendy]

Boundaries are best acted on, not discussed.

The first thing to do is to listen to what she has to say. Keep your Green Martian reality filter on - this takes practice. First you need to listen- what is she saying. Then pause- does this fit my reality or not? If not - then you don't have to address it.

Good answers to things you are not ready to discuss - or are to rattled up in the moment to discuss are " That sounds interesting, I need to think about this, let me think about this and get back to you. Do not agree to anything in the moment- you need time to think - these responses buy you time. If she pushes you for an answer- wash, rinse, repeat.


Conversation boundaries: master the art of drama free boring responses

Don't declare " I will not talk about the affair" " I will not talk about wants and needs" Instead ,don't enter a conversation but give answers that indicate you heard her, but don't perpetuate the discussion. This is how you enact your boundary.

" You have no idea how much you hurt me when you had that affair". " I understand it hurt you" Offer nothing back, no drama, just wash, rinse , repeat, and it goes no where.

" how could you do this to me?" " I understand it hurt you".

"what were you thinking?"  " I understand you are hurt" .

For needs and wants- let her speak, then make a non drama response.

" If you loved me you'd know what I want" " I understand you wish I knew what you wanted".
"I have needs you just can't meet"    "well that is unfortunate "


Action boundaries- "since you have blocked me on your phone, I will not pay the phone bill for it starting on October 1 ( you need to give her time to get a new account) . " angry fit to follow but don't react to her- if you make this statement, you have to follow through, otherwise it is an empty threat.

I have Thanksgiving plans- you are welcome to join me or not... .then keep the plans.

[Skip]

I would listen, ask unloaded clarification questions on actions (not feelings), and repeat back feelings (I feel unloved. <later> OK, so you feel unloved, that's not good). Say you want to think about and talk again on Thursday. Communicate, very simply, that you want things to be better for everyone (don't say how).

Then let's talk about it here.

Avoid engaging into the same old circular stuff that you both have lived in for so long.

Woodchuck, it is incredibly childish that you are blocked on her phone but she is resentful and this is how she shows it. When this series of talks is over, you will be better in you addressed the resentment, not the phone.

In the end if it boils down to "I happy to stay this way until the kids leave the house, you can say you are not and you can file for divorce." This is the path you are both on.

No more talking about the affair
No more talking about needs/wants unless they are specific
Phone and internet will be cancelled if she is planning on keeping her phone blocked so I am unable to contact her
I will be visiting my grandparents for Thanksgiving and taking the kids with me.  (She claims that she must work the day before and after just as she claimed prior to our last visit but she ended up figuring out a way to go)
I am sure there are more.  I can and will follow through with all of the above boundaries.

Try something different, listen with empathy (see video in tools section) and see if you can open the lines of communication a little. You might be surprised what agreeing with her might do.

This would be progress:
I can never trust you!
Well, I can see why you would say that. Member the trust is actually gone at this point and can't be fixed, I don't know.
Yeah, I don't know either - it makes me sad".

Getting on the same side of anything would help now.

[Notwendy]

Skip makes a good point. It's not that you stonewall her with non drama responses. It's that the non- drama boring responses keep you from getting into the circular argument and you don't feed the drama with them. It gives you time to think while not escalating. I assume you will get asked a lot of emotional feelings and it helps to not throw everything "kitchen sinking" when both of you are feeling emotional. If she is then just listen.

[AskingWhy]

WC, I agree with Notwendy on not discussing boundaries.  This leaves it open for discussion or negotiation.

[Woodchuck]

That is all some really good stuff to think about!  I am sure that one topic that will come up is her job. As many of you know, her job was supposed to supplement our income when I retire shortly but she has pulled that plan and now her job is just that, her job.  There is zero financial support from her regardless of her working 30+ hours a week.  Her job has no value to me at all and quite honestly I have a problem with how she acts like her job is do important when she is the only one benefiting from it.  Obviously saying any of that is pointless but I am not sure what to say when her job does come up.  

[Woodchuck]

WC, I agree with Notwendy on not discussing boundaries.  This leaves it open for discussion or negotiation.

Yes, it makes sense how I need to let her bring things up and communicate boundaries as she brings them up. 

[Skip]

No boundaries. No problem solving. No needs.

Just listen for the first discussion. Like in this video: https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

Can you do that?  

It sounds like neither of you listen to each other.

Let her say it all... .

I work hard and its my money and I'm not sharing it!
OK, I understand what you are saying. I felt that way at times too. So are you are thinking we should settle the estate and have separate finances?
No. I just want to keep my money.
OK. So you want to keep all the marital assets as joint property and just separate out your salary for yourself. I understand.

You can come back the next time and say
OK, I'm OK with separating finances. I'm not so ok with the me sharing and you separating, you can understand that, right? So why don't we do a property settlement. You will have your money and property, car phone, furniture, and I'll have mine. We can refinance the house, you can buy my share (or I'kk buy yours) and the other can have a lease and pay rent.

Turn this around an give her what she wants and you can live with. Problem solve. She might go for this option, she might realize that its better to share. She might just say - no to everything. If so, you can file for divorce and start the process of documenting and getting your  6-12 month waiting period started.  Who knows, she might go down that path for four months and decide to share or she might want to divorce.

Either way, you are working with her and you are advancing things.

Phone boundaries don't solve anything.   

[Notwendy]

You've got several topics you think may be up for discussion- but you really don't know what she has to say. She might say something unexpected. I agree with Skip- just listen this time. If she brings up any of the topics you mentioned, it isn't going to be solved in one discussion. If you bring up the job issue in addition to whatever issue she brings up, you are in for a long night down that rabbit hole of circular discussions.

Listen first. You may even want to bring a piece of paper to make a list of the things she says- so you remember it. Tell her - I need to write these down as they are important to you and I want to be sure I address them, but I don't think I can do it all at one time. I first want to hear what you wish to discuss.

Nothing needs to be agreed on or resolved. There isn't any use in arguing. Just hear her out and try to self soothe and not react if she says things that upset you.

The job and money issue is one to be discussed later on its own. The issues she wants to bring up are likely things she wants. The job and keeping her money are things she wants. It's you that wants this to change. She isn't likely to want to hear it in a discussion focused on what she wants. Hear her out first.

[Skip]

You may even want to bring a piece of paper to make a list of the things she says- so you remember it. Tell her - I need to write these down as they are important to you and I want to be sure I address them, but I don't think I can do it all at one time. I first want to hear what you wish to discuss.

 

[Woodchuck]

She was asleep when I got home and ‘too tired’ to talk. 

[Notwendy]

Well now you have instructions for/if/when she does talk to you.

[BetterLanes]

Most disappointing Page 2 of a thread ever

I honestly doubt your W was really too tired (unless she had worn herself out psychologically thinking about the upcoming conversation). Assuming you want to have the conversation, you could try encouraging her (We still need to have that conversation you asked about, when would you like to do it?). I wonder if she wants you to say something like that, or if she was actually trying to "bottle" out of the conversation altogether and hope you would forget about it. Clicking Send on an email is relatively easy, starting a difficult conversation in the physical presence of the person is really hard. I have lately done this same thing and I had to set myself up for it with a commitment action close enough to the time of the conversation that I couldn't back out (the glitter thing). Having the best part of a day between clicking Send and you coming home might well have been enough time for the anxieties to come back in and take over and make her avoid the hard thing. Maybe if you make it your thing as well by encouraging her and setting a time, she will be able to go ahead with it.

BetterLanes x

[Woodchuck]

Well I forgot some stuff that I needed for work today so I had to drive back home to get it this morning.  When I got home I asked her if she wanted to talk.  She said there was really nothing to talk about.  I asked her what she wanted to talk about as far as future plans.  She said that if we are getting divorced then we obviously would not be able to keep the house and the kids would most likely not be able to stay in the schools they are in so why should we continue living where we are living.  The unspoken message behind this was (in my opinion) a ploy to move closer to her family.  Anyone that has followed my story knows how that has gone down.  I told her that I intend to stay in the house that we are in and will do what I need to do to make end meet (legally and safely).  She then told me that she could not support my financial irresponsibility and used the shower removal as an example.  She felt like I just did my own thing without talking to her or considering her.  I simply told her that I was sorry she felt that way and asked for other examples.  She said that I would need to figure it out.  I asked her what she wanted.  She told me that she wanted me to be a kind person.  I replied, 'ok'.  She then said she wanted me to be a 'good husband'.  Again, I just said 'ok'.  She then stated that she could not make me a kind person or a good husband.  I responded with, 'that is true'.  She told me that she wanted to just continue living parallel as we have been.  I asked her what she meant by that and she said she just wanted to keep things the same, aside from she was going to become as independent as possible and was planning on moving her phone to a different company.  I asked her if that meant that she was not going to contribute financially to the monthly bills.  She stated that she contributes plenty even though she does not contribute financially.  I told her that if we were going to be room mates that we needed to divide expenses somehow, this is how a room mate setup normally works.  She told me that all I care about is money.  I told her, 'ok, I don't agree but we don't have to agree'.  She then told me that all I want from her is sex and the money/sex scenario that we are in makes her feel like a prostitute.  I told her that I didn't just want sex but that it must be horrible to feel that way.  In reality, we haven't had sex in over a month and the last time we had any kind of intimacy that was enjoyable/fulfilling was many months ago.  I did not voice any of this as it would not be productive.  

She then walked out and said that she needed to go to work.  

I became emotional at that point (frustrated).  I should have just walked away.  I told her that if this is how things are going to be then it would be best for us to work towards a divorce.  She told me to go ahead and do that.  She then told me that she needs to be respected and included in every financial decision that is made.  I told her that there were a lot of things that need to be addressed before that happens and that I don't feel like I am respected by her as a human being much less her partner.  

She grabbed her purse and walked out the door.  

I am angry with myself and I am angry with her.  I am tired of my thoughts/feelings/needs not even being an issue of discussion.  I really do not think that I am capable of handling this kind of relationship in a healthy way.  

I know that I am a kind person.  That does not mean that I am always kind, no one is, but I will go out of my way to do anything for anyone, including her.  I know that I do my best to be a good husband.  Am I always a good husband?  No, but I do try to give it my best.  Am I always financially responsible?  No, but I do try and I think that I have done a very decent job of providing for my family over the last 20 years.  I feel like I am nothing but a piece of crap to her and I am very tired of feeling that way.  

I do feel like I was able to maintain the conversation this morning much better than in the past but I do not think it is sustainable.  I cannot completely deny myself and who I am just because she is not capable of seeing or appreciating who I am.

WC

[Skip]

I have to say that I was blown a way with how this conversation was unfolding in the beginning. My read on it is that she was talking and you were listening and it was an effective exchange... .not what you would want to hear... .but a start. She is shut down as you are - remember Gottman - neither can really talk about things without zinging each other. The fight is everything.

It almost feels like she is shutting you down and denying you on the financial end the same way that she felt shut down over the house/move. Is that possibly what is happening here.

I do feel like I was able to maintain the conversation this morning much better than in the past but I do not think it is sustainable.  I cannot completely deny myself and who I am just because she is not capable of seeing or appreciating who I am.

As we talked yesterday, taking her comments away from the conversation would be a good way to avoid being reactive to her digs. You two remind me of a hockey game where one player (her) is trying to draw the other player into a fighting penalty (you).

When you say "I cannot completely deny myself" are you referring to the need to fight back verbally?

[Woodchuck]

The house/move may have something to do with it, however, money has always been a sticking point with her.  She has hid money since we were first married.  She may very be trying to make me 'fail' financially and then offer her assist with the contingency of moving.  The difference is that I was open to moving until she had a meltdown over me asking my brother about how a particular house was constructed.  Due to the history of conflict with FOO, I decided that it would be best to not move and potentially have more problems.  This was a boundary that I set and not up for discussion.  She did not like that.  The difference between the move and her contributing financially is, in my opinion, not contributing financially when you are working regularly is quite rude and disrespectful.  She claims that she is not contributing to my financial irresponsibility but that does not hold any water.  If we were in fact room mates and we had shared the bills, each person covering their portion of the expenses has nothing to do with the financial responsibility/irresponsibility of the other person.  That would only be a factor if someone was failing to meet their obligations because of their financial choices.  To put it bluntly, it is a lame excuse. 
When I say that I cannot deny myself, I am not referring to fighting back.  I am referring to having my needs met.  Each and every want/need that I have voiced has been invalidated and purposefully unmet.  Things such as a simple post-it note saying 'I love you' is not a valid need according to her.  I have spent years denying myself my needs by telling myself I deserve it for how I hurt her with the affair.  There is no end in sight and to make it worse, anything, and yes, I mean anything that I try to do to meet her needs is also invalidated.  She refuses to tell me what her wants or needs are and yet I continue to try and all I get back is that I am doing it all out of selfishness and she does not love me.  I cannot continue that way.  I cannot continue to deny myself my needs.  I need to feel some kind of validation of some sort or nothing at all.  I cannot continue to handle to constant invalidation.  I believe I deserve to have basic 'needs' met.  Why is a 3 word note invalid?  It is not as if I am telling her I want a 3 page love letter every day or I want her to engage in some immoral activity etc.  3 words on a sticky not and I am not worth that, let alone anything else.  As I told her this morning, I don't feel like I am even respected as a human in her eyes.  She demands this unquestioning respect but shows absolutely none in return.  I could name several 'basic' needs but this one really seems the most basic and hurts that I am not worth that.

She also asked for my 12 month plan moving forward.  She trashed the plan that we had made and had in place for years.  Why would I trust her with telling her what my plan is now?  So she can sabotage it?  My response to her request was simply that I am going to do whatever I need to do to make ends meet.  I really wish I could just turn off having any kind of desire for her.  I wish I could just shut off my heart and move on. 


My next step that I have planned is to buy a proper bed as the one that I have been sleeping on has made it impossible to sleep due to back issues that I have.  I am sure that when I have a mattress/base delivered that I will get an earful for being financially irresponsible.  I have half a mind to tell her what I am doing and half a mind to just do it.  The best sleep I have had in the last several months was the one night that I had a sleep study.  I have not slept well in months and it is really starting to take a toll.

  I know all this mess seems crazy and probably somewhat unbelievable.  I wish is was not real.  I guess the bottom line is if I could determine what her wants and needs were and could have mine met at least in part, I would keep trying but she seems determined to keep us in this position where none of my needs are valid and I am incapable of meeting her needs.


WC

[Skip]

This was a boundary that I set and not up for discussion.  She did not like that. 

Technically, could she see this as doing to you, what you have done to her... .you made a unilateral boundaries ultimatums on money you earned... .she is making unilateral ultimatums on money she earns.

I don't know how this all emerged (I have some idea) but your two are deeply in the fourth stage of communication breakdown and unless that changes pretty quick, there may be no possible recovery here.  I say may, as that point may have been crossed.

As an outsider looking in, it seems like you both want to stay together and blame the relationship struggles on each other rather than enter into a "fix or quit" process.

I've been her for a few years and watch a number of these situations end in very high conflict divorce.

Making a unilateral decision on the house is a big deal. And affair is a big deal. Her extended passive aggressiveness is a big deal.

You guys are locked in battle. It's hard to read... .I feel really sad for your family, WC.

[Woodchuck]

I guess I don't quite see it that way.  Until recently (6 months or so), I made sure she had several hundred $$ available at all times.  I never questioned what she spent it on.  I stopped that in response to the constant, 'I don't want/need/ anything from you'.  Additionally, even if I make decisions about how the money I make is spent, it still does not negate that a very large portion of it goes to paying for monthly expenses for everyone.  Do I have a say in whether or not that happens?  Technically, yes but if I decide to not pay, I face consequences.  She has absolutely zero financial responsibilities and has full control over every cent she makes.  It is really not about the money as much as it is the heart/attitude.  I have no problem paying for everything.  What I really have a problem with is the attitude of entitlement etc.  I have a problem with being told over and over and over that she doesn't need me for anything or want me to do anything for her and tells me this over devices I provide for her.  What kind of person does that?  I have provided a life where she has never HAD to work and has been able to stay home with the kids as she has desired.  I have had little to no say in how the kids are raised or how the house is kept or really much of anything other than how finances are spent.  The finance realm seems like the last frontier for her to have total control, which I believe is her end goal.  There is no respect for me providing the best I can and honestly doing a decent job I believe. 


As far as blame goes, I believe that I take responsibility for my 'contributions' to our troubles.  I also believe that I am the ONLY one that is taking any responsibility.  She continues to tell me that I am THE problem that I need to change.  Am I part of the problem?  Most definitely.  I have also been completely open to hearing what needs to be changed and there has been radio silence or hearing that I need to figure it out combined with her saying that she does not need to change, that I deserve everything I get with how she treats me. 

[Woodchuck]

Really, it seems like the only real 'option' is wiping the slate clean across the board and starting over as if we just met but I don't see that as possible with how she holds onto everything and needs absolute control.

[Skip]

The finance realm seems like the last frontier for her to have total control, which I believe is her end goal.  There is no respect for me providing the best I can and honestly doing a decent job I believe. 

It would help me, I think, if you would show me that you understand what I'm saying and say that you are fine with it. I feel like you are not hearing me, so I say it in a different way.

1. Do you see how, from her perspective, she could legitimately see you as using power and control to suppress her? Do you see the connection between having an affair, unilaterally vetoing a house/relocation near family, ending her allowance, and threatening to take her off the phone account unless she meets your demands could appear to her (and her friends, family) as a long history of power and control on your part.

2. I'm not saying that you are alone and at fault for your family problems, or that you didn't work hard, sacrifice, and put food on the table, buy clothes, cars, vacations, etc. I think we all believe that you have.

The two paragraphs above can both be true. They are not mutually exclusive.

She is living in paragraph #1. You have an affair and not only was she betrayed, she was financially trapped. She wants to move... .but she is not a peer, you veto that ("boundary")... .you give her an allowance (an taketh away when she does not treat you right).  Your boundary ultimatum list about are all power demands; no more talking about "A", not more talking about "B", financial punishment (phone), etc. To her, this money she is earning now is likely her independence from this power/control. This is the "bad husband" she is rebelling against. She has years of resentment and is not going to give you anything; love, sex, cash, satisfaction, etc. In this last conversation you had with her, you listened (great), but then you exerted power.  Do you see how she could feel this way. I'm not saying she is 100% justified or that you are bad, I'm just asking if you see that she could legitimately feel this way?

I think, from all that you have said, this is what is going on with her. And your instincts (I'm going to cancel the phone, or I lost it) are all feeding and growing this narrative. If you do the the covert separation of finances, quietly setting up a divorce, it will seem like more the same.

From a psychology point of view, passive aggressiveness is how people respond when they feel bullied.  Again, I'm not justifying, just explaining the human nature at play.

You are living in paragraph #2. You made a mistake, paid your dues, and want to have a reasonably normal family/home... .and she is sabotaging that at every juncture, etc.

Neither of you want to end the marriage, and there is far more invested in the battle than a solution.

Do you see this?

[Woodchuck]

Skip,
First I want to say that I really do appreciate you taking time to try explain things.  I do see how the two paragraphs can be true at the same time.  I guess the sticky points for me are regarding me trying to control or suppress her.  I am not saying that is not how she sees it, she is free to see it however she wants to but at the end of the day, decisions that have made, excluding the move, are directly and solely related to her stating over and over that she does not want me or need me to do anything for her.  In my mind, it is the same as dealing with a rebellious child saying that they don't need you.  I kept giving and giving in spite of her 'tantrums' but finally had enough and decided to let her experience what she was saying.  It was not to control her but more to stop enabling or something along those lines.  None of the decisions that I made or have contemplated to make are a result of her refusing to see things my way or do/not do something that I want.  It is all related to her 'not needing' me.  If she doesn't need me, ok, then after a certain amount of time, I stop giving.  I cannot explain how frustrating it is to have her use things that I provide for her to tell me that she doesn't want/need me to do anything for her.  Maybe I am looking at it wrong but I don't see any of my actions as control based but more just giving her what she states she wants.  With all that said, I would handle things at least somewhat different if she was not working and making her own money.  I am not the kind of person that is going to deprive her of access to anything if I am the sole source of things.  Any 'threat' that have made has been tied directly to her saying she doesn't need/want me to do anything for her.  The only other option I see that I have is to continue to take that verbal/emotional abuse and continue to provide everything for her.
As far as the move, that is a bit more complicated.  Again, I can see that she could take it as control and in a sense it really is but not out of selfishness.  I was initially excited about moving and being closer to family.  We have spent the last 15 years thousands of miles away from family.  As soon as she had her meltdown over me asking my brother a simple question though, all the danger flags went up due to all the family drama in the past.  The family drama combined with the moving stress seemed like way to much of a risk to our family (me, W and kids).  Our troubles started with FOO and I did not want to have those problems resurfacing be our demise.  Could she look at it as bullying?  Sure.  I have explained what my mindset is and that our family is my greatest concern. 

I completely agree with you that there has been little invested in a solution.  Is this due to my approach?  Possibly/probably in part.  However, I have asked/begged for specifics regarding what she needs for years and she has refused to tell me, instead telling me to figure it out.  I cannot successfully work on a solution myself.  I have proved that over the last several years.  To me, her actions tell me that she does not want a solution. 


WC

[Skip]

I can see that she could take it as control and in a sense it really is but not out of selfishness. ... //... Could she look at it as bullying?  Sure.  I have explained what my mindset is and that our family is my greatest concern.  

OK. So maybe is rebelling against control and bullying, but you stand by your actions because they were justified responses and without malice.

I completely agree with you that there has been little invested in a solution.  Is this due to my approach?  Possibly/probably in part.  However... .

If it was me (it is not), I'd might totally rethink the approach.

I have asked/begged for specifics regarding what she needs for years and she has refused to tell me, instead telling me to figure it out.

Maybe she has already told you and you are not able to hear it.  I have had that problem in relationships from time to time - I get caught up in my own emotional bias.

It's something to think about. I hope this helps at some point.

Hang in there WC.

[BeagleGirl]

She said that if we are getting divorced then we obviously would not be able to keep the house and the kids would most likely not be able to stay in the schools they are in so why should we continue living where we are living. 

I told her that I intend to stay in the house that we are in and will do what I need to do to make end meet (legally and safely). 

She then told me that she could not support my financial irresponsibility and used the shower removal as an example.  She felt like I just did my own thing without talking to her or considering her. 

I simply told her that I was sorry she felt that way and asked for other examples. 

She said that I would need to figure it out. 

I asked her what she wanted. 

She told me that she wanted me to be a kind person. 

I replied, 'ok'. 

She then said she wanted me to be a 'good husband'. 

Again, I just said 'ok'. 

She then stated that she could not make me a kind person or a good husband. 

I responded with, 'that is true'. 

She told me that she wanted to just continue living parallel as we have been. 

I asked her what she meant by that

and she said she just wanted to keep things the same, aside from she was going to become as independent as possible and was planning on moving her phone to a different company. 

I asked her if that meant that she was not going to contribute financially to the monthly bills. 

She stated that she contributes plenty even though she does not contribute financially. 

I told her that if we were going to be room mates that we needed to divide expenses somehow, this is how a room mate setup normally works. 

She told me that all I care about is money. 

I told her, 'ok, I don't agree but we don't have to agree'. 

She then told me that all I want from her is sex and the money/sex scenario that we are in makes her feel like a prostitute. 

I told her that I didn't just want sex but that it must be horrible to feel that way. 

Woodchuck,
I think it's worthwhile reading through the first part of your conversation with your wife, as you described it to us.  I broke it out into "She said" and "I responded" paragraphs so it's a bit easier to see the exchange.

If the conversation had ended when she was ready to leave, I would have said that you were off to a good start.  While many of the things she said were painful to hear and revealed that she sees "reality" differently than you do, it was a start at communication.  Yes, it was one sided.  It was all focused on what she thinks/feels/needs/wants.  Some of the things she said were probably intended to be hurtful.

But what if you had allowed her to go to work having been heard with no rebuttal?  What if she left you feeling that you had listened to her and hearing her was what mattered to you?

I have been in your shoes, or at least very similar shoes.  I reached the same stalemate point with dBPDxh, and in hindsight I can see the point where I was no longer willing to be the one to break that stalemate.  I believe that I was justified in standing my ground, but I also know what it cost.  I no longer carry many regrets about how I left my marriage, but I do feel like there were times when I caused myself unnecessary pain by trying to be heard by someone who was unable to hear me.

There's no guarantee that your wife will be able to get to a point of being able to hear you, but I think that the best chance of getting her there is to hear her first and give her time to know what it feels like to be heard.  It's not going to be fair.  It may not result in her feeling any safer or more willing to reciprocate.  But there's a chance.  How much of your time is worth that chance?  Can you give it 90 days?  Can you go 90 days without asking her to hear how she's hurt you?  How she's not meeting even your most basic needs?  Can you come here and vent all your frustrations so your wife has some space to feel heard and possibly stop seeing you as the enemy?  If the end result is that nothing changes and you end up getting a divorce, what will the cost have been?

Now I'll be honest that if someone suggested something like that to me in February of last year, I would have said it was impossible.  I was barely holding on and I saw no hope and I didn't have the strength to hear and not be heard in return.  You may be there.  In that case, I have some thought of how to start to look at your other options. 

BG

[Notwendy]

there were times when I caused myself unnecessary pain by trying to be heard by someone who was unable to hear me.

There's no guarantee that your wife will be able to get to a point of being able to hear you, but I think that the best chance of getting her there is to hear her first and give her time to know what it feels like to be heard.  It's not going to be fair.  It may not result in her feeling any safer or more willing to reciprocate.  But there's a chance.  How much of your time is worth that chance?  Can you give it 90 days?  Can you go 90 days without asking her to hear how she's hurt you?  How she's not meeting even your most basic needs?  Can you come here and vent all your frustrations so your wife has some space to feel heard and possibly stop seeing you as the enemy?  If the end result is that nothing changes and you end up getting a divorce, what will the cost have been?


BG, this is brilliant.

[Woodchuck]

BG-
I appreciate all your insight.  Honestly, I have no idea what the 90 days would do.  If we were not approaching 2 decades of the same crap, I might see things a bit different.  I can see how I have caused myself unnecessary pain in many ways.  I want to say that I don't care about fair but I don't think that is entirely true.  I believe what I care about most is a way forward and that has never happened in the entire time that we have been together.  Skip mentioned that maybe she has told me what she needs and I think that he is right.  What she needs is total control over everything and has a reason for why she should have control.  There is no way of working as a team with her if I have a different view or opinion on anything. 

She asked me to show her a budget so I spent time today and drew up a rough budget of what our expenses are.  When I showed her, she balked at the numbers and told me that was completely unsustainable when I retire.  For some reason, she thinks that I cannot work when I retire.  I am not even 40 yet.  I mentioned looking into working for UPS a few years ago and she told me that I would be too 'broken' to do something like that.  There is absolutely no basis to any of that.  I can work 60 hours a week if I need to.  Along with that, we are in probably the most dense area for government jobs in the country where I could start out making what I am making now in addition to my retirement pay but she doesn't listen to any of that.  As she looked at the budget, she asked me how much of the money that was spent was spent on her.  My first reaction in my head was "WT*, seriously?"  Instead I told her that if we broken down the basic expenses down the middle, the number would be X.  She told me that was not fair in part because the kids used part of the house, utilities etc.  Again, in my head it was "What the heck, seriously?"  I told her that the kids are not responsible for covering any expenses.  She went on to tell me that it was still not fair because I take up more space in the house with my tools so it should not be split down the middle.  I gave up at that point.  For one, it is not just about the money.  What options did I give her by providing enough to live on one income?  She wanted to be a stay at home mom.  I was able to give her that opportunity, yet she takes credit for that because she isn't a 'big spender'.  That combined with her idea that I view her as a prostitute in the sense that I provide for her in exchange for sex.  If that is the case, it has got to be some of the most expensive sex out there.  I am sorry but it is all just crazy.  It is really really difficult to listen in the manner required when I am working my a** off to do whatever I can and it always being wrong. 
Going back to the 90 days, it would be easy I believe to not focus on how she has hurt me or how she does not meet my basic needs if I could just get something right and get on track if that makes sense, however that seems impossible.

I did tell her that I intended to buy a new mattress for my room.  She basically told me that she expected nothing less because I just like spending money.  I believe what needs to happen in order to make real progress is for her to be able to communicate small things that she needs and then accept that an effort was made to meet that need instead of tearing every effort apart and finding every negative aspect of it that can be found.

WC

[Woodchuck]

As another example of her unquenchable need for control, as I believe I have stated in the past, she has blocked me from texting or calling her, however, she continues to text me, knowing full well that any response I give will be blocked.  It is just another way that she can 'control' things and at least to me, it is disturbing.  Blocking someone is an obvious attempt to control but blocking someone and then continuing to communicate in that way is a few steps past that and more taunting in a way

[Cat Familiar]

Regarding the texting, I’d say that I was no longer planning on reading her texts since there’s no opportunity to respond back.

The inequity needs to be addressed in my opinion.

[Notwendy]

I agree with Cat about the texts. The two of you are starting to sound like War of the Roses. Calculating how much square footage each one takes in the house to calculate expenses. Even room mates have to be able to communicate both ways with each other and not be too nitpicky about shared space or it becomes a difficult room mate situation.

IMHO considering the content of the discussion you had, I wonder if any of it is productive. It seemed to be kitchen sinking resentments and that isn't going to get resolved. Both of you have them- understandably but a discussion won't resolve them and all they do is dig the divide between you deeper.

If you are serious about dividing the home and expenses then- I find that heated- emotional types of discussions ( such as expenses ) are sometimes better done in the presence of a counselor to keep the situation from getting circular and going off track. If you were really at a point of divorce- with each having a lawyer- that discussion- division of expenses- would be between lawyers but you aren't there yet. Also, with her in victim mode, probably no division is going to feel fair to her- you may be looking at numbers, she may be looking at feelings. How much money did you spend on me=how much do you care about me? You can't put this in numbers.

The "you like to spend money" comment after you discussed the mattress is a barb. It's bad feelings/resentments. Leave these alone.

Own your reasons and don't blame. Use "I " statements when possible instead of "you".  "I would like to communicate with you but I can not do this by phone, so please discuss things with me in person. " Do you see how this is different from " since you blocked me, I won't respond" statement even though they mean the same thing?

There is still a lot of emotion between the two of you. She may say she is done with the marriage but she still sounds very hurt. So do you. I think stopping these kinds of hostile "let's break things up" plans might ease the tension. They don't solve anything.

As to your own financing- considering the situation, I don't think your plan to rely on income from her when you retire is a solid one. I can say this from personal experience in how my own BPD mother handles money- it is emotional for her and it has strings attached. You are still young and it seems you are in a position to find a job. It would put you on more secure financial grounds for yourself. I know it isn't your original plan, but it may also not be forever. It may just not be wise to take a cut in finances when you are having this conflict with her salary. If she sees is as all hers, you can't change that. This is adding to your conflict in the moment. If the two of you were to divorce, all salaries would be considered in a settlement, but you are not there yet and neither of you are able to agree on her salary.

[Woodchuck]

Thank you for the input on the texting issue.  I think that is probably the best way to handle things.

I think I need to clarify a few things.  I am not planning on relying on her to assist with anything financial.  As soon as she decided she was pulling the plug on what our plan had been, I lost all faith and trust in her to support financially.  She could completely change her tune today and it would not affect how I think/feel.  I do not believe that she is dependable and therefore will not put myself in a position where I need to rely on her for any expenses. 
I have already secured a job (mostly).  It is contingent on passing a background check, drug test and physical.  All three of those are very easy with my background.  I also have applications pending with several other jobs as I am not going to put all my eggs in one basket.  I have not communicated any of this to her as I expect that should could somehow try to sabotage my efforts or at the very least find fault with any job I do find.  It is my opinion that with how she handled things, she lost her option to have input on what I do to make ends meet.  The last thing I need is to involve her only to have her inject negativity/doubt into the process.  It is already stressful enough.  Her salary is just that, her salary.  I don’t ask nor do I receive any input whatsoever as to how her salary is handled.  I told her last night that if she wants to work together on finances then she can start contributing to the pot since she is earning a paycheck.  She balked at this.  Along with that that, she has stated many times that she is putting all of her money aside as a cushion for when I retire but I have zero faith in that as well. 
Regarding the War of the Roses, I would like to clarify that I am not condoning calculating square footage.  To me, that is completely childish, especially when you have the mentality that the kids are somehow responsible for their portion.  At the core, it is not about the money.  It is about the heart.  I don’t need her to contribute financially and I don’t want her to contribute resentfully.  She is of the mindset that she contributes by taking care of cleaning the house and while I don’t agree with that, that is her reality.  My reality is that everyone pitches in and helps out but all she can see is what she does.  The same goes for clutter around the house.  All she sees is everyone elses clutter and somehow thinks that she is organized when in reality she is responsible for just as much clutter as anyone else (Aside from maybe our daughter, we should have named her Dropsy... …).  The point I am trying to make is I am not trying to nor am I interested in nitpicking and dividing things ‘fairly’.  Nothing is ever going to be fair.  What I am interested in is working together etc.  Hopefully that makes sense.


WC

[Enabler]

Hey Woodchuck,

Sounds like you're very much caught up int he washing machine, your desire to respond and correct the narrative prompts you to perpetuate the guerrilla warfare of she hits and runs, you chase and try and get your shot in to make sure the balance is fair. As the others have suggested, what if you accepted that things aren't going to be fair, things are actually going to be downright unfair. The texts... .she wants to hit you then run back to cover and slam the door on you. You come back and hammer on the door even though it's locked and bolted... .just let her offload all over you, stand head to toe in a puddle of her verbal vomit and diarrhea, listen, say very little other than ask for clarification and then when she wants to run to cover... .let her go.

Why? You might be asking. When she runs to cover she thinks she is returning to safety. she thinks she is returning to the safety of avoiding the guilt and shame you place on her with your accusations and your comments... .if you make accusations, the transaction becomes about what you accused her of or how you shouted. If you ask questions/ask for clarification the transaction then becomes about the questions/clarifications and her lack of answers. She runs to safety but she can't escape her own head. She runs to safety and instead of returning to base with thoughts of how horrible you are she sits in her emotional bunker ruminating about her inability to respond to your questions/clarifications. She wants to return to the bunker with feelings of victimhood... .you are not allowing that.

Making a pledge to not negatively engage in conversations about _____ for 3m:

- Moving
- Her contributing financially
- The Phone and her blocking you
- The affair

Forget any ideas of _____ for 3m :

- Working together
- Resolving anything
- The future
- Aspirations
- Dividing things

By all means be present, by all means acknowledge, by all means listen. But make an active choice to allow her to do her thing, ask for clarifications and then let her run back to base. She is continuing along the same boring drama filled road that your marriage has been going along for years... .You are taking the right fork. This right fork sucks, A LOT in the short term... .HOWEVER... .whilst you allow her to return to base with evidence that YOU are the perpetrator, she will only think about YOUR behaviour. Starve her of that evidence (rightly or wrongly) and she will turn the proverbial gun on herself... .don't get me wrong, she will kick and scream to get the 'evidence' she craves, but she can do that if she likes.

This is not taking the sanctimonious high road, this is not being passive, this is not continuing along the same road, this is conscious, this is proactive, this is tough, this involves thinking before you open your mouth and ONLY saying ANYTHING which is additive to the relationship. If you are in any doubt whether it's a positive or negative thing to say... .say nothing. Be the master of avoidance. Suck the emotion out of the situation.

My 2p... .