PART 2 Trying to understand why my wife has filed the application for Decree Nisi

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hi Enabler,

No I don't think you have over-processed at all! I can see how emotional intensity would set someone up to respond very strongly to religious experiences. Especially as you say the deliberately emotionally powerful events that lots of churches now put on. Even the word "worship" would now mainly mean emotive Christian music to a lot of people, although you can worship God without saying anything at all. Heck, it even works on me  

You're not blaspheming to point out that many modern Christian events (including the away weekend of the Alpha course) include at least some activities that will create or reinforce intense feelings. That doesn't at all (as you know) mean "it's all a setup" and the feelings are all there is to it. I've also had unexplainable supernatural experiences and evidence of God's hand in the events of my life, and also heard about this type of thing from people I trust. My H from a standpoint of nominal Christianity got very angry at God during and after his father's terminal illness (he died maybe a year before my H and I met), although I don't think he ever completely stopped believing there was a God. I think that normally would affect someone's faith as you say it did for you.

Just like you point out, though, scripture has priority. Emotional experiences and signs and words from God shouldn't substitute for sound Bible teaching (although they often do) and they shouldn't be used to justify things that contradict God's written word (although they often are). What you wrote sounds like a very plausible theory, your W has very much hooked into the emotional experiences because of her tendency to this, and the OM is strongly mixed in with the whole experience and associated with it, and you have read that he reinforces to your W this association between their faith experiences and their human relationship. Can I say "unholy mess" about this? As you say none of this means that faith isn't real, or your W doesn't have a strong faith, or it's wrong to have emotional experiences in connection with your faith, but there is a very real danger of misleading yourself and/or being deliberately misled by others on the basis of the emotional experiences. "By their fruit you will recognize them."

BetterLanes x

PS I believe I saw an angel once, although I wasn't afraid at the time, and I do believe in them generally. I also used to be very scared as a child/teen of being alone in the house or even upstairs on my own, which I understood as a fear of ghosts and a sensation of a malevolent presence. Oddly I would never experience these feelings outdoors, even at night. Unless your W actually saw an evil presence, I'd guess she experienced some similar feelings. Maybe it is abandonment.

[BetterLanes]

Hi Enabler,

No I don't think you have over-processed at all! I can see how emotional intensity would set someone up to respond very strongly to religious experiences. Especially as you say the deliberately emotionally powerful events that lots of churches now put on. Even the word "worship" would now mainly mean emotive Christian music to a lot of people, although you can worship God without saying anything at all. Heck, it even works on me  

You're not blaspheming to point out that many modern Christian events (including the away weekend of the Alpha course) include at least some activities that will create or reinforce intense feelings. That doesn't at all (as you know) mean "it's all a setup" and the feelings are all there is to it. I've also had unexplainable supernatural experiences and evidence of God's hand in the events of my life, and also heard about this type of thing from people I trust. My H from a standpoint of nominal Christianity got very angry at God during and after his father's terminal illness (he died maybe a year before my H and I met), although I don't think he ever completely stopped believing there was a God. I think that normally would affect someone's faith as you say it did for you.

Just like you point out, though, scripture has priority. Emotional experiences and signs and words from God shouldn't substitute for sound Bible teaching (although they often do) and they shouldn't be used to justify things that contradict God's written word (although they often are). What you wrote sounds like a very plausible theory, your W has very much hooked into the emotional experiences because of her tendency to this, and the OM is strongly mixed in with the whole experience and associated with it, and you have read that he reinforces to your W this association between their faith experiences and their human relationship. Can I say "unholy mess" about this? As you say none of this means that faith isn't real, or your W doesn't have a strong faith, or it's wrong to have emotional experiences in connection with your faith, but there is a very real danger of misleading yourself and/or being deliberately misled by others on the basis of the emotional experiences. "By their fruit you will recognize them."

BetterLanes x

PS I believe I saw an angel once, although I wasn't afraid at the time, and I do believe in them generally. I also used to be very scared as a child/teen of being alone in the house or even upstairs on my own, which I understood as a fear of ghosts and a sensation of a malevolent presence. Oddly I would never experience these feelings outdoors, even at night. Unless your W actually saw an evil presence, I'd guess she experienced some similar feelings. Maybe it is abandonment.

[Enabler]

I believe that emotional experiences with God are important and often a way that he shudders through us... .although in many respects this could easily be explained by a chemical (Hormones) rush from some kind of stimulus as well... .however we have been blessed by free will, we have been blessed with an endocrine system that allows us to generate our own feelings from pretty much anything. We have an obligation to self filter with biblical cross reference and teaching what is and isn't in line with Gods will.  Many Churches as well as secular populism place a lot of emphasis on 'feeling' and individual interpretation, and not as much emphasis on learning, teaching, morals and values. We're allowing and in fact encouraging individual interpretation of scripture such that anyone can look through their own cloudy lens and see what they want to see and gain validation for what they want validated. This is why spiritual bypassing is so dangerous in the Church. God does fill a void of emptiness, but we have a moral obligation to fix the holes.

I wrote this to my W back in 2016 just after we separated and she sent me a letter trying to explain her extraordinary relationship with OM.

"You have taken external inputs and rattled them around between yourselves agreeing to whatever each other said in a self-perpetuating spiral of spiritual extremism. The whole concept of a group of people design to critique thoughts, especially about deep philosophical and religious topics was thrown out the window and in fact actively avoided despite the suggestion by other people including myself. I cannot judge whether or not God is speaking to you or whether or not it is in fact your own thoughts which you justify as the word of God in some delusion of grandeur. However, and again I’m no expert but if I was God and I wrote the Bible and I was speaking to you directly over the last 9m I think I’d have said STOP THIS WITH OM NOW."

[Enabler]

Also... ."be kind to yourself" is something we hear a lot about on the boards... .what about the times when you actually need to be really tough on yourself because you're making a complete dogs breakfast of things. I'll put my hand up and say that my reactions to my W's chaos were idiotic and my attempts to control my kids chaos was idiotic... .I needed to be VERY hard on myself and I was, I needed that slap round the face and kick up the @ss. I took myself aside and had a stern word with myself, now I feel like I'm in a place where I do deserve to be kind to myself because I've got my own house in order.

Sometimes it feels like we're too quick to tell people to be kind to themselves when actually they need to harshly critique their own behaviors.

[BetterLanes]

Hi Enabler,

+1 for self-filtering. With hormones vs. God my understanding is it's just both - so God is working through our natural biological mechanisms. It's like with the miracles in the Bible, you can explain a great deal of them away as convenient/coincidental/misinterpreted natural phenomena (and resort to "mass hallucination" for the rest) if that's how you want to handle it. Or you can believe that this was God working through the things he created and owns.

Regarding "be kind to yourself" on the boards, I think there are two things I'd want to say about this -

(1) I get the impression most of the time people saying this are just advocating small acts of self-care (go for a walk, sit and think for a while, grab a cold one) for a mood boost. I don't think they usually mean "justify your own behaviors and actions to yourself". [Citations needed] but this is my impression. You could very well be spending the time you are having a massage or sitting with a beer thinking about whether or not you have been idiotic lately, it's not incompatible.

(2) We all here have been told a lot in the past by our SOs that we are going about things in the wrong way, over- or under-reacting, failing to help when needed, being actively unhelpful, just plain wrong, etc. etc. I'm sure you are right that some people at some times would benefit from getting the suggestion from this board to think about the inappropriateness or negative consequences of their actions, in a more gentle and respectful and informed way than their SOs would do it.     are what seems to produce the most benefits most of the time though. (Or analysis and big semi-theoretical discussions and funny stories for those that are more into that sort of thing

BetterLanes x

[Enabler]

(1) I get the impression most of the time people saying this are just advocating small acts of self-care (go for a walk, sit and think for a while, grab a cold one) for a mood boost. I don't think they usually mean "justify your own behaviors and actions to yourself". [Citations needed] but this is my impression. You could very well be spending the time you are having a massage or sitting with a beer thinking about whether or not you have been idiotic lately, it's not incompatible.

I hear you Betterlanes and yes I agree that's often the intention... .however it strikes me that those people who most need to do less 'self care' because they're actually pretty good at it (my W) because they have Narcissistic tenancies anyway, take "be kind to yourself" as a cue to think less about how you are making a complete mess of things and more "justify your own behaviors and actions to yourself". Those people who need that kind of advice are generally reluctant to take it because they're too busy getting their house in order.

[formflier]

Regarding the "be kind to yourself" comments.  I make a lot of those.

BetterLanes has my idea right.  Take whatever is "normal" amount of self care... and do more.  Double it.  Splurge on that nice meal or a massage... .or pedicure.  For me, light exercise and walking does wonders.

There is something about when a person close to you says horrible things about you and what you deserve that tends to get us in a funk, almost like we believe it.

We can "fight back" with extra kindness towards ourselves.

FF

[juju2]

So true ff!

Self care is redeeming

[BetterLanes]

Hi Enabler,

a cue to think less about how you are making a complete mess of things and more "justify your own behaviors and actions to yourself"

True, I can see how a narcissist doesn't need to hear things that sound like "love yourself"!

It might be worth bearing in mind that this is the Conflicted board. Some of the people posting on here at some points are one more partner-BPD-freakout away from blowing up the whole   show themselves, and they know perfectly well what they would need to do to achieve that. Not everyone is equally motivated at all times to be behaving well, using the tools, and trying to hold the relationship together. I think this could well be the source of some of the "out of order" or "less than a best effort" behaviors from nons that you might see being posted about, whether it's conscious, half-acknowledged, or just coming from some deep dark angry place.

You were able to straighten yourself out because you'd chosen and committed to your path, and your posts show how the strength of that commitment gives you strength to make the right behavior choices every day. That's inspiring to see, and thank you for displaying it. I think for many people on here making that choice and commitment is something they are currently aspiring to but haven't achieved yet. Without that it's much harder to choose appropriate behaviors consistently. Plus, if the choice for someone ends up being to leave the relationship, suddenly all the relationship-detaching behaviors start to look like the more appropriate ones (within reason of course!) and the relationship-building behaviors look like they just made the choice or action of breaking up more difficult. The effects of retrospect and perspective on our judgements of events are a source of great wonder and interest to me and surely are very relevant on this board.  

BetterLanes x

[Enabler]

Thanks BetterLanes,

I'm glad I am an inspiration to someone. I think if I am brutally honest with you and the forum... .and myself, I don't mind conflict. It's not that I seek it out, I just don't run away from it and have a natural tenancy to turn and face adversity and 'the right way' than take the path of least resistance. I am without any doubt at all that this has in part led me to my current position of being accused of being 'abusive'. I called her out on disrespect, deceit, manipulation and areas where i felt she was taking advantage. I became intolerant.

An extract from an email I sent back in 2007 when she left the second time, regarding the first few years of our marriage 2001-03:

"It dawned on me that someone who couldn't make their own decisions, who got stressed cooking and couldn't handel the pressure of a day in the office, someone who was never happy unless drunk and who couldn't hold an arguement without walking away and crying was not telling me how and what I should be doing, someone who always said I can't do it then had an opinion how I should have done it after the event... .You were going to live by my rules as yours were clearly rubbish and if this meant ramming it down your throat so be it... .and so started the agressive backlash about anything and everything I disagreed with, any objection you had with me... .why tollerate it, why pander to it, why agree with it, it didn't get me anywhere before. Shouting, screaming, lashing out... .that made you get the message and in my mind it made you think twice about kicking up a fuss, emotionally blackmailing me or trying to make me change again. See the rubbish thing about that was I was now part of the problem, in fact I was the problem. Rather than it just you being irrational demanding  and a bit physcho it was me who was the nutter, me losing control and most of all... .me who was now and @rsehole."

If anything, I have learnt how to turn away and allow myself to observe things but not 'be in' things. It's not so much standing down or running away, but being present but not fueling the fire. I can't say it doesn't induce an EPIC amount of anxiety when enduring her silent treatment, passive aggressive behaviour or even overt aggression, but I take the fact I didn't react away from each event as a positive and sign of personal growth.

I know I need to work on how I do that without getting the feeling that I'm a better person than her for not reacting and be neutral about it. Some passages that have guided me recently:

Philippians 2:3 - Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.

Proverbs 25:15 - With patience a ruler may be persuaded, and a soft tongue will break a bone.

Romans 12:2 - Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Enabler