Part 3: Would you consider this behavior frightening?

[NeedsHelp]

MOD NOTE:  this is a continuation of PART 2 found here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329190.0;all

You are doing a great job.

How are you doing on self care?  Are you able to get out and spend time with friends?  Are there any mom's groups you could join to give each other support, enjoy time together, and swap child care?

RC

Thank you. It is wearing me out, but I have to hang in there for my S. I am looking into a mom's group. Even if I can't give all the details of life, it would be nice to at least small talk and get my mind off all this for a little bit.

[Radcliff]

Thank you. It is wearing me out, but I have to hang in there for my S. I am looking into a mom's group. Even if I can't give all the details of life, it would be nice to at least small talk and get my mind off all this for a little bit.

Mom's groups can be a HUGE help.  My wife did one when our kids were tiny, and it was so helpful I cannot imagine trying to raise a kid without it.  They would meet at local parks frequently, sit and talk while the kids played.  There were group birthday parties in a park each month, they'd go to pumpkin patches with the kids, etc.  Good luck!

[livednlearned]

In families like ours, when we get outside parties involved, it can shine a lot of light on both parents.

That's the risk, that in exposing what is happening, we find ourselves under a spotlight, too.

Fortunately, you can be proactive. Keep chipping away at this stuff, and reaching out to people who can help you. Keep documenting everything, and putting together a safety plan. It can feel overwhelming -- I was in grad school, had a full time job, and was essentially functioning as a single parent when my marriage blew up. It took me a year to put everything together leading up to that point, and even as organized as I was, there were some surprises and a lot of swift moving water I had to navigate.

The more information you have, the more you work through these scenarios, the better you will be able to make quick decisions that are more or less informed. I had to leave my home abruptly, and I knew the risks involved (e.g. abandonment of the marital home), and could weigh that with what my L was prepared to do in my defense (let me move us to an undisclosed address but make sure S9 talked to his dad that night to say he was ok, and every night after that until things cooled down). 

Meanwhile, be gentle with yourself. It's good if you can socialize with people, and pamper yourself even in small ways -- show yourself you are worth caring for   and I can't say enough about exercise, even if it's just walking. It can do wonders for anxiety and helps you find solutions that may have seemed invisible before.

[NeedsHelp]

In families like ours, when we get outside parties involved, it can shine a lot of light on both parents.

That's the risk, that in exposing what is happening, we find ourselves under a spotlight, too.

I was in grad school, had a full time job, and was essentially functioning as a single parent when my marriage blew up. It took me a year to put everything together leading up to that point, and even as organized as I was, there were some surprises and a lot of swift moving water I had to navigate.

I had to leave my home abruptly, and I knew the risks involved.

Meanwhile, be gentle with yourself.

This is so true, and especially hard when you know the other party is so good at twisting things around. You are trying so hard to look out for the wellbeing of your child and have to worry you are being judged for not acting soon enough or people not understanding why you don't just jump up and leave. Dealing with anxiety that in the end you will be blamed for someone else's misbehavior and your child is going to end up hurt either way.

Do you mind me asking if you had to file DV charges? The thought of that in and of itself is very stressful and overwhelming. The burden of proof is on you and you are accusing someone of criminal behavior which is obviosly going to intensify whatever anger or issues the other party is harboring. I am not sure how you can effectively coparent with someone once this action has been taken.

I am trying to be gentle with myself as much as possible. I get stuck in fear and worry a lot. I have to push really hard to stay proactive.

[livednlearned]

Do you mind me asking if you had to file DV charges?

I came within a hair of filing a TRO twice. The day I left, I went to a women's DV advocacy center in town and I don't know what happened to change my mind... .the young woman doing my intake looked like she was all of 15, and I had this awful feeling that I understood more than she did, when what I needed was someone who knew more.

That, and I had a serious concern that my ex could be tracking me using my phone. We had Google Latitude (no longer exists) on our phones, so he could see my whereabouts. I wasn't sure if I had thoroughly removed it. No one in the DV center seemed to know anything about tracking, and that made me feel that they could make my situation worse out of ignorance.

There was also something else, now that I think back on it. One of the advocates said that someone from the center would come with me to the hearing for the TRO, to help walk me through it. This is hard to put into words, but I felt like she was already scolding me for not showing up, if that makes sense. There are probably a lot of women who don't appear, and she was trying to tell me that it was important I commit to showing up. But on the flip side, I didn't feel like the people I had spoken to were as careful with my situation as I needed them to be. I was looking for safety and instead got something else that didn't meet my expectations. I knew how to take care of myself, but I really didn't know how to let other people take care of me, and I hesitated.

So I never filed. Instead, I moved into an apartment that I had arranged before leaving, and they put me in a unit with three law people in law enforcement in my building. The woman who leased the apartment to me guessed that I was in a bad situation, and it turned out her mother was a DV survivor, so she allowed me to park my car in a garage unit for free. My boss was also a survivor, and she moved me to an office with no identifying features. She also had me contact HR and talk to campus police (I worked at a university).

That's more than you were asking, but as you know, these things can be complicated. The details in our situations matter, because what worked for me might not work for you. I decided to thread the needle, and was allowed to move into the apartment without disclosing our location, and try to handle the abuse/conflict through lawyers. Once we had two lawyers and some therapists watching our situation, my ex reached deep to find his best behavior and for a while he managed to do that ok.

Then roughly a year later, he had a major psychotic episode with full-blown paranoia, apparently caused (according to him) by a combination of ambien, adderall, and painkillers while our son was staying the night. I all but guarantee alcohol was involved, tho he would not admit to it (it was a condition in the order that he would not drink alcohol before or during our son's visit).

After that, I revisited the idea of filing a TRO but somehow the lawyers talked me into an ex parte emergency order that meant no visitation until the hearing (roughly 3 months) and ex was instructed to send no emails, messages, etc. like a TRO might state. He agreed. I can't remember if he violated it, but just the relief of no visitation was enough to make me feel like things were manageable.

The thought of that in and of itself is very stressful and overwhelming. The burden of proof is on you and you are accusing someone of criminal behavior which is obviosly going to intensify whatever anger or issues the other party is harboring. I am not sure how you can effectively coparent with someone once this action has been taken.

I am trying to be gentle with myself as much as possible. I get stuck in fear and worry a lot. I have to push really hard to stay proactive.

Be gentle with yourself, meaning -- acknowledge how hard this is. It's really, really, really hard. And you are doing the best you can under impossible circumstances. Imagine yourself as a much younger person, and give her the kindness, compassion, and care you would to someone going through this. It feels stressful and overwhelming because it is stressful and overwhelming. Even with support, it's still you making decisions and moving yourself and your child from one safe harbor to the next. And you're trying to create that bubble of safety from his father. Trying to keep someone safe in the family, from a family member is the big leagues.

CPS looks for "protective capacities" of the parents -- you can find a list of these characteristics online. They're pretty vague, but they will give you a sense of what they're looking for. Here's one example:

https://media.wcwpds.wisc.edu/preservice/safety/docs/Parent-Caregiver-Protective-Capacities.pdf

You may want to keep a log that details what you did to make sure your son was not alone with his dad. For me, I had to stop traveling for work, which would've been easy to verify (emails, supervisor's testimony). I also did not leave our son at home with his dad at night. My L had given me the advice to log my ex's drinking/substance abuse, and what I did to keep our son safe, which was to spend lots of time outside the house, especially on weekends when ex began drinking early, and at night when the drinking intensified. All of that was recorded in a Google doc.

And yes, you are right that protecting yourself will anger your abuser. That's the unfortunate upside to abusive behavior -- it's intimidating. It keeps things in the dark, where it's easier for shadowy things to happen. When we shine light on our circumstances, the abuse will try to go underground and find a different way to manifest. By then, you will have more knowledge about how things work, and the benefit of perspective and distance. I can't overstate enough how much strength came back to me when I moved out. It was still hair-raising to share custody and I made myself sick with worry, but not more worry than what I felt living inside the home. And having a place where then S9 could exhale and relax was priceless for his well-being. To be able to spill cereal on the floor without setting off a major explosion was something that took time for both of us to adjust to.

[Radcliff]

Wow, that "protective capacities" list that livednlearned has shared is fantastic!  One thing that jumped out at me was this:

Parents/caregivers and other reliable people who can describe various events and experiences where protectiveness was evident.

Reading that brought me back to the idea of journaling.  The absolute most important benefit of journaling for me in a domestic violence relationship was that it gave me the confidence to tell my story.  Yes, it was very helpful to be able to share my journals and journal summaries directly with people, but the very first benefit was that it gave me confidence.  I knew that my wife's distortions couldn't convince me that I'd imagined things.  I was able to tell my story to others with confidence, without panic or doubt that might have made them wonder if I was exaggerating.

Expanding on this, if you have a journal that includes dates, what you saw your husband doing, and how you intervened, that could then allow you to confidently tell a story of a mother protecting her son as best she could.  Flexible, nonconfrontational interventions like you've described -- distracting, moving your son to a different room, etc. are healthy strategies.

How is your son doing these days?  Any big milestones or stories?  Is Halloween a big holiday for you?

RC

[ForeverDad]

A word about journals, diaries, logs and calendars.  Many of us are so concerned that they will be demanded in discovery (or interrogatories) and then other information, even our private information, shared.  My lawyer assured me they remained confidential but that I could 'refresh' my memory or verify dates, etc by consulting them without the other side demanding to see them.  That proved true.  The court gave me time during my testimony to reference details when either lawyer was questioning me.  Probably that holds true in all states, but confirm with your lawyer.

If you're still reluctant to log, then don't add private information in your logs unrelated to the incident.  Of course, avoid inserting comments that try to reinterpret the events.  Stick to the facts.  Include details.  Without dates, times, witnesses and other details the court could very well conclude it's "he said, she said" and ignore it as hearsay.

My court, and apparently others too, have indicated that incidents older than six months can be viewed as 'stale' or too old to address in court except as part of a long term issue or pattern.  When I say six months, that's before filing about it in court.  Sometime you can file about an issue and and it can be nearly a year before it gets handled in court, don't worry about the slow pace of court.  In other words, the clock stops ticking once the matter gets filed for court handling.

So if you lost your cool years ago and shouted back at the spouse or ex, don't fret.  It's too old to matter if brought up now.  You or your lawyer ought to be able to object and state it is legally stale.

Side point... .  Many of us, myself included, found ourselves apologizing over and over, ad nauseum, to the ex for assorted past sins, even ridiculously minor ones.  The ex sees them as triggers, never quite forgiven and therefore always coming back as unsettled issues.  Accept they'll never be forgiven and forgotten.  But always make sure that for any serious matters that you never admit doing wrong.

Poor response:  "I'm sorry for insulting you (or whatever)."  Why?  If ex documents it such as with witnesses or a recording then the conclusion could be that you actually did insult her, or whatever.

Wise response:  "I'm sorry you felt I insulted you (or whatever)."  See the difference?  You're apologizing for how ex felt and avoiding convicting yourself for doing whatever wrong.  It may be semantics, but if it ever comes down to the wire that difference may mean a lot.

[NeedsHelp]

Wow, that "protective capacities" list that livednlearned has shared is fantastic!  How is your son doing these days?  Any big milestones or stories?  Is Halloween a big holiday for you?

RC

It looks very helpful! S2 has been doing pretty good lately, actually. H has been gone a lot. Yes, I try to make the holidays as fun as possible. You have to give the little ones something to look forward to.

[NeedsHelp]

A word about journals, diaries, logs and calendars.  Many of us are so concerned that they will be demanded in discovery (or interrogatories) and then other information, even our private information, shared.  My lawyer assured me they remained confidential but that I could 'refresh' my memory or verify dates, etc by consulting them without the other side demanding to see them.  That proved true.  The court gave me time during my testimony to reference details when either lawyer was questioning me.  Probably that holds true in all states, but confirm with your lawyer.

Yes, that is a concern I have as well... .that the information written down be used against me or that it could add more fuel to the fire in an already volitile situation. I worry the journal may be given to the other side to ridicule me and anger H, when the whole purpose is to get the most peaceful outcome possible for S2, which would require H and I to get along, if possible, but when filing for  D I am not sure if that ever happens.

[NeedsHelp]

But on the flip side, I didn't feel like the people I had spoken to were as careful with my situation as I needed them to be. I was looking for safety and instead got something else that didn't meet my expectations. I knew how to take care of myself, but I really didn't know how to let other people take care of me.

Then roughly a year later, he had a major psychotic episode with full-blown paranoia, apparently caused (according to him) by a combination of ambien, adderall, and painkillers while our son was staying the night. I all but guarantee alcohol was involved, tho he would not admit to it (it was a condition in the order that he would not drink alcohol before or during our son's visit).

Trying to keep someone safe in the family, from a family member is the big leagues.

CPS looks for "protective capacities" of the parents

And having a place where then S9 could exhale and relax was priceless for his well-being. To be able to spill cereal on the floor without setting off a major explosion was something that took time for both of us to adjust to.

It sounds like you have been through so much! Thank you for sharing all of this with me. I agree with you that children should be able to relax in their own home. It is so unfortunate that not everyone can see this or even realize how their behavior is affecting others in the household. Trying to find a way out is definitely not an easy road, but staying is so exhausting as well.

[Radcliff]

Yes, that is a concern I have as well... .that the information written down be used against me or that it could add more fuel to the fire in an already volitile situation. I worry the journal may be given to the other side to ridicule me and anger H, when the whole purpose is to get the most peaceful outcome possible for S2, which would require H and I to get along, if possible, but when filing for  D I am not sure if that ever happens.

In my case, I turned the entire, detailed journal of domestic violence over during discovery.  I wrote it in an entirely factual manner, just recording the actions and some of the quotes.  I didn't apologize in it, I didn't interpret, I didn't do anything but record the facts.  Since I always conducted myself as if they eyes of the village were on me, I'm not ashamed of or nervous about anything in the journal (embarrassed, yes).  Sure, giving the journal during discovery means that the other side knows what I have.  On the other hand, they know what I have, which in our case encourages settlement.  I'm not saying you need to give the journal over during discovery -- that's something to discuss with your lawyer.  The most important thing is that I am eternally grateful that I have an accurate and complete record of events, and I can be confident telling my story.  The benefits of full and accurate documentation of the truth outweighs any risks by a long shot in my mind.

RC

[ForeverDad]

Here in BPD or some similar *PD world our ex-relationships are tremendously entitled, they decide, they're the Authority, they're always right and we're always wrong.  Typically we are dealing with entitled controllers and dictators.  What this documentation does is weaken that sense of entitlement and control.  Many of us have even reached settlements (what courts and lawyers really prefer!) in spite of the sheer opposition and sabotage, but only when the entitlement was weakened and the ex had to deal with the reality, often a looming hearing or trial where they couldn't posture, bluff and bluster any more.  It's getting to that point that is so hard.

So do ask your lawyer how journals and logs are viewed.  I believe your lawyer will calm your fears.  Of course, this also means you don't lose your self control.  That way you have nothing to write down where you reacted badly.  If your ex hit you and you hit ex back, that's bad.  Also poor is ex raging at you and you raging back.  You have to be consistently angelic, well, within reason.  Courts don't expect you to be a saint, just a reasonable person, but you will get scrutinized far more than your ex.  Like with Spider Man, when much is given you, much will be expected of you.  Court will eventually know you're better and mentally healthier overall than your ex and so will expect more of you than of your ex.  One slip up and you know your ex will forever chant everywhere whatever you did poorly.

[NeedsHelp]

Any suggestions on how to be "heard" in couples counseling when your partner takes over the sessions or on books that can help with communication in couples therapy? H just brought up wanting to try counseling again and said he is ready to leave the relationship if I don't go. The last time we went was literally painful for me, but he thinks it helped him. The good thing that could come from it is if we could somehow discuss the boundry issues and frightening behaviors toward S, but last time it seemed he only wanted to talk about getting his own needs met and everything he thought I was doing wrong. If I discuss my own feelings or his behavior, it will likely lead to threats of D again. Either way, I feel it could be a no win situatuon, but if there is a potential for anything good to come from it I am willing to try and am open for suggestions. Feeling stuck, but see no other way but to go through this again.

[livednlearned]

Would you be returning to the same counselor?

If you don't have a counselor who understands the games couples play, it can make matters worse. That you feel the need for a book to help you in couples counseling suggests the previous T was in over his or her head.

[NeedsHelp]

Would you be returning to the same counselor?

If you don't have a counselor who understands the games couples play, it can make matters worse. That you feel the need for a book to help you in couples counseling suggests the previous T was in over his or her head.

It would be the same one. I think she was on to some things after we had seen her for several months. She could sense his tension and mentioned that it was probably affecting our entire family. It got to the point she was having us interview each other with "safe" cards for entire sessions toward the end.

[NeedsHelp]

It would be the same one. I think she was on to some things after we had seen her for several months. She could sense his tension and mentioned that it was probably affecting our entire family. It got to the point she was having us interview each other with "safe" cards for entire sessions toward the end.

This is also the same counselor who pointed out to me it sounds like his M has BPD. I had gone to her before we did couples counseling in an effort to figure out how to deal with his M's behavior toward myself and S. When H found out I had been going to her, he became angry and wanted to go with me to see her. I believe abandonment fears were triggered and moods and behaviors were frequently shifting with the worst of it shortly after sessions.

[Radcliff]

How does interviewing with "safe cards" work?

Take a look at this page on why marriage counseling is not recommended in cases of domestic violence.  Every situation is unique, and I'm not trying to label your situation, but it'd be good to look at that page and see if anything rings true.  I'm not aiming to discourage you from counseling, more offering a "look before you leap" suggestion.

Your idea to discuss boundary issues regarding S2 is an interesting one.  You may be disappointed, but it may be worth trying.  

One boundary you could set as a condition for your participation is that both his concerns and yours get equal air time.  Perhaps in a given session it might tilt one way, but averaged over a few sessions, if you're not being heard, it's not healthy and you could withdraw.

Have you thought about talking to the counselor, discussing your concerns with her, and getting her thoughts?  

RC

[NeedsHelp]

How does interviewing with "safe cards" work?

 I'm not aiming to discourage you from counseling, more offering a "look before you leap" suggestion.

Your idea to discuss boundary issues regarding S2 is an interesting one.  You may be disappointed, but it may be worth trying. 

One boundary you could set as a condition for your participation is that both his concerns and yours get equal air time.  Perhaps in a given session it might tilt one way, but averaged over a few sessions, if you're not being heard, it's not healthy and you could withdraw.

Have you thought about talking to the counselor, discussing your concerns with her, and getting her thoughts? 

RC

She handed us a stack of cards she had picked out and we would take turns answering the questions. They were just basic questions about things we like, etc. Things I believe were unarguable facts, like what is your favorite color, etc. Prior to that, everything we talked about it seemed like was somehow redirected by him to my shortcomings, what more he wanted from me, and even the efforts I made were deemed inadequate by him.

I would prefer not to go, but find an alternative. But, if I do not go once again the D threat will be made and I am still not prepared. I have been working on a safety plan in case things get to be too much or I feel S2 is getting hurt again, but all is not in place. If things get physical again, I may have to leap anyway. His behavior toward S2 has not been bad lately, so I thought things were going okay, and was hoping to make it through the holidays with as low conflict as possible.

I would really like to talk to her and let her know what was going on behind the scenes the last time we were in counseling, but I have been unsure if that would be inapprpriate or considered triangulation. I am pretty sure she sensed something was not right, but sensing and knowing are two different things.