The curse of entitlement

[Enabler]

Like a golden thread I can see how the curse of entitlement has been woven through 21 years of our relationship. On her side the poorly delineated understanding of the difference between Need and Want, and on mine the sense that I deserved to be treated better by her.

Last night we sat down for a talk about financials as part of the divorce process. I knew it was going to be a tough conversation with plenty of scope for dysregulation on both sides. I managed to speak softly and keep myself very well centred which was good. Apart from some small rocks on the runway it went pretty well, until the end. The final question from me... .I knew this was going to be tough for her to cope with, and frankly it was tough for me to deliver. I know how much she enjoys her new voluntary work and it pains me to question it's continuation... .but it's a luxury that her choices no longer make reasonable. It was a choice with an implied opportunity cost that marriage facilitated even if her decision to do it was unilateral.

How does voluntary Prison work fit with maximising earning potential? Since you could be doing gainful employment during this time, it stands to reason that you are choosing not to maximise your income. You did not start training nor did you start working at the prison until after you asked / petitioned for a divorce. What reasons do you feel I should be paying for this charity work? If you can work in the prison surely you could do another paid role?

I am doubt whether she saw this voluntary work as a want, it was her rite, her entitlement. Her reaction was complete silence as she went to bed, refusing to communicate. She was sad and angry. I was sad; sad that the situation she wants was forcing her to consider how fair and reasonable it was for her to being doing something she had always aspired to do since it is incompatible with the desire to get divorced at the same time. It felt like I was removing one of the pillars of her fantasy world, a world which her friends and family have validated with little consideration for the bigger picture and the other choices she was making at the same time. I am sure this is not the end, if anything this is just the beginning of the journey of reality and fantasy colliding with a crash.

I'm desperately trying to manage the collision of the worlds such that no one gets obliterated.

Enabler

[Cat Familiar]

I am doubt whether she saw this voluntary work as a want, it was her rite, her entitlement.

I'm desperately trying to manage the collision of the worlds such that no one gets obliterated.

You drew conclusions for her that she hadn’t yet pieced together. In that way, you took on a parental role: “That costs more than your allowance, so you can’t have it now and you will have to save up for it.”

As much as you’d like to give her a soft landing, when it comes to divorce, that is unreasonable and not your job.

You are wise in thinking about financial planning, but this is her designated car crash and you cannot save her from the consequences. And any attempt to do so will be met with scorn and resentment. Ultimately the pieces will fall where they may.

[BetterLanes]

Hi Enabler,

That sounds like a super hard conversation which you handled well. Have you spoken to her about it since?

One question from me... .does your W see the prison work as "her ministry"? ISTR you said she helps run Sunday school at the church, but does she frame the prison work as her main Christian calling and vocation? You might want to ask her if something like that is the case. From what you posted you didn't describe it in these terms and she didn't respond to argue with your definition.

If this is the case it could make it really hard for you to have any impact arguing with it. I see that it detracts from her potential earnings and was something that she started up after asking for a divorce, and I don't doubt that a secular court would accept your points completely. But if she thinks it is her ministry then in her mind it is something God wants and supports her in doing, so in her mind He is backing her up on the entitlement. I would really watch out for that.

BetterLanes x  

[Enabler]

Nicely put Cat. However as things stand we’re ‘doing divorce’ the friendly way at the moment so these types of conversations have to be had by me rather than some lawyer. I have to be careful how I pop bubbles and have taken to posing them as questions rather than “you have to” statements. Consistency with a single well formed narrative doesn’t seem to be there at the moment and likely won’t.

Someone said to me today “you are just a passenger here, she is driving the bus”. I thought about it and said, I feel more like the cop in Speed under the bus trying to disarm the bomb whilst she pedal to the metal at the drivers seat.

[BetterLanes]

CatFamiliar, cross posted with you, sorry. I think the issue here is to do with how UK divorce law deals with financial settlements. I have a vague understanding that the lower EnablerW's income is relative to Enabler's, the more Enabler is liable to pay out to her as the "financially weaker party". So he would be having to pay her extra money because she was spending some of her available time doing unpaid work rather than paid work. Her income will be lower, but I believe it's Enabler who would be expected to make up for that. IANAL of course  

BetterLanes x  

[Enabler]

Betterlanes that’s exactly correct. She sees this as her main Christian calling, she has always had reoccurring dreams about being imprisoned (in reading I have done it appears this is common with those who have childhood trauma). It saddens me a lot that I am even making her question this work as I know how meaningful it is to her.

However I see a conflict I her view that god is calling her to do the prison ministry which calling her to get a divorce from me. Given the question I posed to her the two seem at loggerheads with each other. The voluntary calling was a luxury afforded by the income provided in the marriage which doesn’t exist out of the marriage.

I am not trying to force her hand and do not want to stay married to someone who wants out of the relationship, only for them to be able to continue their ministry, I just want her to consider the validity of those messages and how they contradict each other.

[Cat Familiar]

I have to be careful how I pop bubbles and have taken to posing them as questions rather than “you have to” statements. Consistency with a single well formed narrative doesn’t seem to be there at the moment and likely won’t.

Someone said to me today “you are just a passenger here, she is driving the bus”. I thought about it and said, I feel more like the cop in Speed under the bus trying to disarm the bomb whilst she pedal to the metal at the drivers seat.

Totally makes sense. I hope that you can continue to unravel things in a friendly way. I had high hopes to do that in my divorce, but my ex had other plans.

[Enabler]

Hope for the best but plan for the worst!

Weapon of choice appears to be ST as per the last 18 months

[Enabler]

Sitting at home watching The Great British Bake Off... .that’s how I roll... .I’m thinking back to all those conversations we’ve had where she expressed a desire to do Christian charity work. Knowing what I know now I handled those conversations badly from a BPD perspective I.e. she wanted to hear “yes yes yes that’s an awesome idea, I’ll do whatever it takes”... .what I said was “I’m not saying no, we need to do what’s right for everyone and take into consideration the impacts on all of us.”

I basically push partnership behaviour when she wanted to make unilateral decisions... .that’s nice, but I was stripped of my ability to make unilateral decisions decades ago! Also, is it just me, or are unilateral decisions cool if most of the consequences are taken by the person making the unilateral decision... .control comes with responsibility doesn’t it? It never seemed to work that way, I’m going to do X and you’re going to pick up the fallout! I guess this is what I’m marking my boundary around... .my choices... .your choices.

[formflier]

Is there a way to "do" this/these type of conversations with spreadsheets.

Just have a line with Enabler wife working full time

Another line with Enabler wife working and doing prison ministry.

Your proposal will pay the difference in full time work.  If she chooses to work half time, it comes out of her pocket, not yours.

FF

[Chitchat]

There may be a way for her to do this work with a lesser commitment. I visited a couple of prisons as an occasional visitor, usually doing a car share with others. We jointly formed speakers clubs with inmates. The expectation (sense of entitlement from some prisoners) became too much as I increased my own commitment, but the appreciation from most at the early stages was amazing. And I also learned how to hold up an armoured delivery truck.

[Enabler]

Morning all, There’s a solution to most things and I prepared to negotiate and compromise as per usual. Regardless of what Enabler W might say, everything is negotiable if you can do the work to get me out of my trench with good solid reasoning. I am not an unreasonable man, you just have to be prepared to put some effort in to reason with me, not much, just a little.

At this stage it’s a thought I’ve put out there which hopefully she thinks about. A bit of a you join the dots up as FF would say. Divorce = XYZ

[BetterLanes]

FF, I think Enabler could make a spreadsheet and project it on the side of a building and it wouldn't make any positive difference here. Enabler is right about the money. EnablerW believes the ministry is her true service and calling before God. It's a straight up shoot out between God and Mammon in her mind.

Enabler, I see your point that God is apparently calling your W to this righteous and totally-recommended-in-scripture ministry, and also to an unrighteous and totally-not-recommended-in-scripture relationship. Have you said that to her explicitly yet? If not, is that something you feel you could say? If no, then I doubt she will spend much or any time considering it. From what you have said she has a lot of rationale and justifications set up around the relationship with the OM. I think it will be much more comfortable for her to just file your points about the prison work under "Enabler doesn't understand true religion and I do". 

I wonder if she will bring it up again to you or not? If so you might want to address it in her terms instead and make it clear that you understand she sees this as a calling, but you didn't influence her choice of it  and it's not where you would choose to put your charitable donations, so she needs to work out if/how she can do the ministry without it being financially supported by you. I think Chitchat's suggestion is good.

BetterLanes x

PS Chitchat, also Enabler can come to you for a possible back up financial plan involving an armored delivery truck! 

[formflier]

  Divorce = XYZ

Flip it around... .there are some things that I would recommend you get in your trench, pour concrete... .put out a minefield... .etc etc.

This would be one of them.

Don't save her... or make her path easier... .

FF

[Enabler]

This would be one of them.

Don't save her... or make her path easier... .

Thanks FF, wise words again. I very much plan to within the context of being outcome orientated. There is no point in me sitting in my trench chucking fuel on a fire that's burning at my own feet. As I mentioned in your thread, being quiet in my trench allows me to listen and be wise.

BetterLanes, you're right, I do want to subtly highlight the conflicts between the narratives. I have pointed out the conflicting narratives about the OM (intruder into the relationship) and biblical inconsistencies but they were dismissed. The bigger inconsistency is her perception that she was ALWAYS unhappy and OM was just a function of that unhappiness, rather than that she was 'happy' to whatever extent she could be, she met OM and then rewrote history such that she was never happy in an attempt to justify her relationship. Evidence points to her loving me and telling me she loved me consistently before she met OM and started an inappropriate friendship. However, convincing someone that their memory is mistaken is ummmmm almost impossible. We trust our own recollections right? But with BPD feeling = facts and she's more than capable of rewriting whole swathes of history. Again, 'telling' her this is pointless, even supported with evidence.

[formflier]

I'll add a quick story about entitlement and religion. 

Several years ago, my wife got interested in "her spiritual gifts" and "her ministry".  She decided she had been empowered by God to "save" a kid that was a playmate of our children.  From time to time the kid would come over and spend the night.   After my wife determined she would save the kid, he came over and stayed for a long time.  After several days of this kid being around I asked what the plan was for him to go home.

My wife informed me there was no plan.  He was living with us permanently now.  I was fairly well along in my journey with tools, so I knew not to engage "on the spot".  I listened.

Since everyone has a ministry she had to discover hers, she is gifted in saving troubled children, God calls us to carry out our ministry, her relationship with God came first and is over and above the relationship with her husband, since God is telling her to save this child she must obey God, since she is doing God's work she doesn't have to discuss with her husband, since this is God's work he husband has no say whatsoever, if her husband really loved her he would support her carrying out God's work, her husband not agreeing with all of this is proof of (insert typical stuff),  (I could go on... you get the picture)

There isn't a way to reason with that.  Instead... I acted.  I took the child home that night.  My wife freaked... stomping around the house hollering type of freak.   I let it burn itself out.

As we get to know each other, one of the benefits of my wife working full time is she doesn't have time to sit around and "scheme" about how to save (fill in the blank)

This kind of thing had happened before where my wife would get over involved, but this incident took it to "the next level". 

Sense of entitlement was massive... .that she had such a specific interpretation of God's will and couldn't be wrong.

FF

[Enabler]

That's a great example FF and I can totally empathise with the position she put you in with respects to the narrative of God told her to do something.

I have been reviewing old emails recently, looking for consistencies with regards to her calling.

I have quite a few mails where God was telling her to give up work back in 2011.

It's almost impossible to discuss rationally with someone who believes they have a calling to do something from a supernatural being. There is no room for discussion. Any attempt to rationalise the "choice" is met with dysregulation, yet these non-choice choices have fallout and consequences.

I wonder what the reaction would have been if I said I had a calling to quit my job and be a stay at home Dad? Would she have argued that was impossible because God had called her first?

I don't doubt her calling to work in the prison, she has so much to offer (albeit she has extreme emotional regulation issues and childhood trauma similar to the very people she is offering pastoral care to in prison)... .maybe it's that same level empathy that she can offer. This is something I have ALWAYS wanted to facilitate for her by going to work to earn money every day... .BUT, her choices now are at loggerheads with the calling.

[formflier]

My wife has an early childhood education degree.  Teaching license... etc etc.  

She is really good at understanding "troubled kids" and pointing them in the right direction.  Near as I can tell, the principal gave her the "worst" students on purpose.  My wife has a knack for taking a hardcase and finding a way to motivate them to do better.

Last year her test scores improved "double" the district average.  She got called to several meetings where the subject was basically... ."what are you doing in there?"

Yet... .she can't get along with other adult teachers in her team.  All 2nd grade teachers are "in theory" supposed to plan and work together.  The best relationship she had last year was with another woman about her age... .but there was a heave "frenemy" element to the relationship.  

I listened a lot... .A LOT... .A  LOOTTTTTTTTTTTTTT about this woman's faults and how the relationship issues were all her fault.  

Towards the end of the school year my wife says something about "It's tough trying to control (insert name) choices.  I guess I'll just have to let her do her thing... ."

Luckily paramedics were able to revive me... .and I didn't open my mouth.  Just listen.

Actually that's one area where I practice (somewhat) validating questions.




Validating Questions

FF

[Enabler]

"what are you doing in there?"

She's getting on their emotional level, she knows when the little electric shock come, which questions to avoid... .those shocks which only someone with emotional sensitivity can know as an adult because the rest of us have desensitized ourselves to those sharp pains through emotional development.

As you say, how is that children do not trigger her yet adult behaviour does? What is it about adult behaviour that triggers. I wonder whether there is an perception that your peers can 'look through you' and see shame, or that you're naturally competitive or compare yourself to peers where as she doesn't compare herself to children. She doesn't feel threatened by them therefore doesn't trigger a fear response.

Looks like I didn't ask a validating question since I gave her the answer with too much JADE.

[empath]

Don't save her... or make her path easier... .

I agree with FF's advice.

My h believes himself to be called by God to be a pastor. He's had a hard time convincing churches that we have been involved with for long periods of time of this calling (because it's obvious that his family wasn't flourishing under his leadership). Of course, he said he was the victim of these churches, and he was able to get sympathy from his current church and is on the training path toward a pastoral role.

Except, I am not covering up his bad behavior anymore, and I'm not saving him from his own choices. He chose to leave our home and his church leadership positions, and he told the church that he was going to "work on the marriage" because he hadn't really done that in the 3 years prior. (privately, he told me as well as the leader at his church that he was going to divorce me) The implication was that he was going to be attending church with me. He continues to attend the same church.

6 months later, the leader that he told has huge problems with his leaving the church at a critical time - abandoning them, and the leader doesn't really want h to help with anything. The church has a need for someone to help in a ministry that h formerly led - but h has been told that he basically isn't wanted in that role.

He made choices that have consequences.


In the States, some places can use "imputed income" for determining spousal support - especially if a spouse chooses to work without pay when they could otherwise do so. I'm not sure if that is an option in your country. Do you know if that is a possibility?

[Enabler]

Thanks for your story empath. My W’s church is a small parish church with diminishing numbers. They were very appreciative of the injection of youthful enthusiasm my W and young family bought. I think this meant they turned somewhat of a blind eye to the budding relationship she was forming with the OM since stamping down on them both might risk 2 members and 5 kids whom were rejuvenating the sleepy congregation with a band and other community services. It was convienoemg for them to ignore. To my knowledge although I have to admit I’m kinda out of the loop no one has confronted them. One vicar did come to our home to pray for it but that was more because I believe my wife thought the house contained evil spirits.

Re the prison work, this is not something I want to be responsible for stopping. Maybe I am naive but I believe she is a good person who wants to do good things, but the disorder means she does bad things in an attempt to ‘survive’. Last night I came home and she was listening to Christian music, the words of which were about preparation for a battle. I don’t know whether she singled out this music or it was just one of those ironies, but given other evidence I believe she feels as if she’s in a battle, a fight with me... .but no one is fighting her... .what has happened and what is going to happen is a consequence of her own behaviour and her own choices, and her own warped sense of reality. Metaphorically I want someone to shake some sense into her!

Enabler

[formflier]

Re the prison work, this is not something I want to be responsible for stopping. 

Stinkin... thinkin... .alert!


Seriously... .are you responsible for ANY of your wife's choices? 

Step back, let life guide you wife?  Don't "save" or "enable" her choices.   Stopping her would look like you sneaking over and slashing her tires so she couldn't go... or hiding her keys... or... .(and for clarity  I can't imagine you doing that)
 
So... .filling out divorce paperwork that she has brought and you filling it out according to your values has NOTHING... .nothing... to do with her prison work.   DO NOT connect those dots... .completely invalid.

You doing that paperwork in accordance with your values has to do with your values.

If the result of that is SHE DECIDES that she can't afford to do prison work or if she has to trade in her broom stick for a flying carpet... .you aren't "responsible" for either of those choices.

FF

[Enabler]

Oh FF I completely agree. i.e. I am not telling, I'm not going to court over it.

The dots are there for her to join up.

What dots do I want her to join up I guess is the question I ask myself... .

 - God is speaking to you, you're just not listening
 - He's sent you clear and precise messages... ."Sanctify YOURSELF for my work", "Stop inappropriate relationships NOW, work on your MARRIAGE OR DIE TRYING", "Align your faith with YOUR living and stop living in parallel realities". "The devil doesn't come with horns and a red cape, he comes as everything you've always wanted."
 - You are part of the problem and you are causing your own pain
 - Enabler 'gets you', but enabler knows he can't help you, you have to help yourself
 - Running from the wounds of the past is futile, turn around, face them head on, deal with them, DO THE WORK, LIVE.

[Cat Familiar]

The problem is that she may never do the work and that's her choice.

I know how frustrating it is when someone we care about has so much promise and they choose to sabotage their personal growth time and time again. But again, that's their choice.

[Red5]

"The devil doesn't come with horns and a red cape, he comes as everything you've always wanted."

TRUTH !

Red5

[formflier]

  I'm not going to court over it.

I'm curious about this... .

So... .what if she says no... .you pay$$$.

Do you just have to pay... .(assuming you don't go to court over it)

FF

[Enabler]

No rational person would spend £000’s going to court to ‘force’ her to drop this to save less money but prove a point. I’m asking the question. Ultimately I’m outcome orientated and making her think a little bit more about the contradictions going on in her narrative may help change those outcomes.

I’m not fighting... .she might be thrashing at the shadows but I’m not throwing any punches.

[formflier]

No rational person would spend £000’s going to court to ‘force’ her to drop this to save less money but prove a point. I’m asking the question. Ultimately I’m outcome orientated and making her think a little bit more about the contradictions going on in her narrative may help change those outcomes.

I’m not fighting... .she might be thrashing at the shadows but I’m not throwing any punches.

Certainly I tend to agree with the math angle.  The path of less money and less hassle is  very rationale.

Are you certain of the pathway to less money?

Can you give us an idea of what the disagreement is over?  $100 per month... $1000 per month?  Over how many years?

FF

[Enabler]

At a guess I would say max £200 a month for 13 years, but going or even threatening a litigious route to court ups the anti massively. It’s in no ones imterest especially not the kids whom will likely bare the brunt of lost finances in lost opportunities.

Upping the anti also nails on parental alienation.

[empath]

Enabler, are there standard calculations for the financial arrangements in the UK?