I have tried to stand on my own, but I can’t anymore.

[Seashore]

Hi. This isn’t first post. I’m not “supposed” to talk about myself, my family, or especially my spouse on the internet, but, I’m also not supposed to talk to anyone else either (it is a sign of weakness, and a betrayal of trust, in my spouses opinion). I have tried to stand on my own, but I can’t anymore. I have my own issues (ADHD) and I need help. I don’t have the strength to tolerate and weather my spouse’s storms lately. He rages at me at least once a week, full on, grade 5 hurricane, and every other day it’s criticism, sarcasm, disdain, or some other nastiness. He hides it with smiles so that when I frown, or politely ask him to consider if his tone, words, and intended message match, I’m being a sensitive, or stupid, or argumentative bitch. He berated me in front of our kids. He follows me around when I try to take a step back.

Tonight, he spent an hour telling me I am a liar and a wh**e because I didn’t (purposely, in his mind) tell him I was going to spend $60 on party supplies for a baby shower he knew I was co-hosting for a good friend. The facts are Irrelevant as it turns out. No matter what, I’m a lying wh**e who is looking to steal all his money, and when I get called out on it, I lie, and insult his intelligence with my lies, and everyone was right about me... .my mom, so-and-so “all” day I’m a child, and a liar, and on and on.

I know I shouldn’t engage, other than to repeat HIS feelings but even that was me being a smug sassy bitch. I really can’t win. He walked away, I let him go, so I could cry alone. The things he says hurt. He says the WORST things. Totally unprovoked. Then when he realized I didn’t follow him up to bed (why would I?) He came down, appearing calm (I’m not a fool) and said it’s late we should sleep. I said nothing but cooperated, and he sort of “pushed” me along to make sure I was compliant. I knew I was right, he wasn’t calm, but wanted a change of venue. He loves to fight in bed. He tries to get me to satisfy him by pretending to aplogize and be remorseful then gets mad again and starts insulting me while we’re having sex or whatnot. Then when I want to stop, it’s another reason why I am the worst person, wife, woman, partner, EVER. It’s why all my bf’s left me. Tonight, I just ignored all of it. I laid on my side pretending to be asleep while he blamed me for everything. My silence was a provocation. He started screaming at me, knocked over my lamp and phone, went down stairs an started slamming doors and breaking glasses. I heard him scream he wishes I would die so he could get insurance money to make up for the “bullsh*t” I put him through and all the money I’ve stolen.

I’m sleeping with my 23mo old daughter now with the door locked because I can’t take any more, and I think I’m safe in here with her. I can’t even leave. He’d either say I kidnapped my daughter if I took her or he’d say I am a piece of sh*t who abandoned my own child bc of my lies and weakness.

He says all the time that he’ll take everything, and the kids, because I’m “mental” (after all I’m the one who has gone to a shrink and been in the “looney bin” so I’ll never get custody, and I “hit” him once -really I pushed him away from me bc I was terrified and he fell)

I don’t know why I love this man. What can I say? How can I handle these tantrums? He DOES eventually feel remorse, but only until I “mess up” again and “pick a fight” and then everything EVER comes back at me. Every one of these seems to be exponentially worse.

Btw-he has only been “informally” diagnosed by our family therapist we went to a while ago bc our son was having anger issues. My son still is, but my spouse doesn’t think therapy is anything other than “some a**h*le taking his money and telling him what he wants to hear.” She told me before our last appt to get help if he wouldn’t bc me and the kids would need it.

Whatever I’m doing can’t be right. Is there something I’m NOT doing that I should? What am I supposed to do when he’s raging? It doesn’t seem like anything is working. Like I said, I love him. I want him to feel better, I want to prevent this from happening bc I feel terrible, and I know the guilt he feels from these things is not helping either.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Turkish]

It sounds scary and maddening that you can do nothing right. A top level tool to help reduce conflict is this: https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

Given what you are describing, however, my concern is for your safety,  and that of your kids also since your husband is being extremely aggressive to say the least. How old is your son? Who else knows about the extent of what you are going through?

If you haven't reached out to local DV recources (which can be done anonymously, and it can be so supportive just to talk to a voice on the phone), I encourage you to do so.  He doesn't need to know about it.  This is for you and your children.  You and they deserve to be safe. 

[BeagleGirl]

Seashore,
   I’m so sorry for what you’re going through. I agree with Turkish that a call to a DV organization would be helpful. Even if he has never hit you, some of the behavior you describe is very concerning.

It sounds like you are working some of the tools and trying not to invalidate or JADE.  That’s good. The tool that I feel balances those two is boundaries. https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

I want to stress that your safety should be the priority. The tools are great for long term success, but often spur backlash and “extinction burst” behaviors. If you’re feeling unsafe THAT is the first thing to address.

I know it may be difficult to read a book without your spouse knowing about it, but if you can I would suggest Why Does He Do That? By Lundy Bancroft. It was eye opening for me and helped me understand my dBPDxh’s behaviors in a way that helped me deal with them differently. If you can’t have the book physically or electronically in your home, maybe you can visit a library or bookstore that has it and read it while there.

I also hope that you can find a way to continue therapy for yourself and your son. A DV organization may be able to help with that, even if you are still living with your spouse.

BeagleGirl

[Seashore]

RedRoses,
   I’m so sorry for what you’re going through. I agree with Turkish that a call to a DV organization would be helpful. Even if he has never hit you, some of the behavior you describe is very concerning.

It sounds like you are working some of the tools and trying not to invalidate or JADE.  That’s good. The tool that I feel balances those two is boundaries. https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

I want to stress that your safety should be the priority. The tools are great for long term success, but often spur backlash and “extinction burst” behaviors. If you’re feeling unsafe THAT is the first thing to address.

I know it may be difficult to read a book without your spouse knowing about it, but if you can I would suggest Why Does He Do That? By Lundy Bancroft. It was eye opening for me and helped me understand my dBPDxh’s behaviors in a way that helped me deal with them differently. If you can’t have the book physically or electronically in your home, maybe you can visit a library or bookstore that has it and read it while there.

I also hope that you can find a way to continue therapy for yourself and your son. A DV organization may be able to help with that, even if you are still living with your spouse.

BeagleGirl

On the one hand I agree I should probably reach out to a DV organization, and it’s advice I’d give to me too, but I’m trying to get him to trust someone in this world, and I can’t do that while going behind his back. I’m already here, doing this. We actually have 4 children. I mentioned 2 in my first post. It’s relevant because while I could possibly arrange for therapy for one or two of my kids and me, it would be very very difficult to get all 5 of us somewhere without his noticing. He’s very paranoid, especially about the kids, especially when they aren’t in his presence.

I appreciate the encouragement that I am not a complete failure at managing this. There is only one other person who knows what I go through, and while it does feel good to vent, I get a lot of pressure from her to leave him, or “just tell him” this or that. Which of course doesn’t work. Deep down he is a good man, who loves so deeply he is terrified.  He was emotionally abandoned by his parents when he was 10, when his older brother (who was blind already) fell from a balcony and became brain injured to the point of total disability, once he woke from a coma. My spouse and his other bother ceased to exist after that. Their dad, if he did pay any attention to them, was emotionally, verbally, and occasionally physically abusive. No one but me (outside of the people who experienced all this) knows this and so can’t understand why I even bother with someone who treats me so bad (sometimes.) It’s not his fault to a certain extent. He developed this disorder because of things that were not in his control. I’m not absolving him of blame entirely-even he acknowledges quite a bit of his “bad behavior” as originating with him (when he’s in the mood-a rare gem) but it’s so hurtful for everyone to judge me as being weak, insecure, stupid, or whatever because I refuse to abandon him. He’s had enough of that. He’s pushed a lot of people away already.

I will do some reading of the materials suggested here. I can do it at work.

I don’t really know enough yet to know what “extinction burst” is but maybe it’s whats happening here? It’s getting worse right now because I’ve been more disciplined and consistent with refusing to engage in conflict? In fact, after I wrote that post last night, he came to find me, calm for real this time, and begged me to please come to bed. I ignored him to see if he’d “swing” back to angry and he did not so I joined him. He had a total breakdown then. All the loneliness (which hurts to hear as much as the rage) came out, and an admission that he was hiding something from me and was “projecting” being a liar onto me. He even specifically said “I was feeling really bad, hating myself, feeling alone with this secret, guilty that it exists and I’ve betrayed you by keeping it to myself and so I looked and looked for some way to blame you for my feelings, and I found it in our bank account. Then I was mad at myself for that too... .” and on it went. He told me the “secret” which was not even a big deal at all, but I kept my judgement to myself. He talked about how exhausting his paranoia is (he is very secretive, and distrusting, and won’t even tell me about minor things like taking vitamins or using a new soap-god forbid I ask about it too! Then I’m “giving him sh*t” and am a “know it all b*tch”).

So my next question is what can I do then? When he’s raw, and trying to face what he runs away from, what should/shouldnt I say to soothe him and allow him to heal? Can I do this without inviting the demon back into the room? Or taking on the work he has to do on his own (or creating the false expectation that I am offering to do so)?

Any advice on coping mechanisms for myself? I’m exhausted by all this. I have a huge burden and nowhere to shift it to. My own mental well-being is suffering now to the point where I will have to medicate for the first time in my life to control my ADHD. Maybe that’s an issue for a separate board.  I’ve never been able to get the hang of meditation, and I have almost ZERO time to myself, with 4 kids, a 50 hr work week, 10 hrs of cummuting a week, and housework. I literally don’t even shower or use the toilet alone, and I eat standing up.

[Radcliff]

Wow, Seashore, what a tremendous amount of pressure you are under.  I am glad you are here.  When I first came here, I felt like I was betraying my spouse as well, but the truth is that one of this site's main purposes is to help families.  Our spouses wouldn't understand that, but we do.  My guilt eased with time as I saw how healthy it was to get advice here.

I liked BeagleGirl's recommendation of Why Does He Do That?  It is an excellent book.  It would really help to read it.  I totally understand what you mean about it not being helpful to get advice from someone telling you to just leave.  www.thehotline.org has some fantastic resources, and speaks to this question in a Web page titled, Why do people stay?  There is also an excellent series of blog posts, 50 Obstacles to Leaving (1-10),(11-20), (21-30), (31-40),(41-50), that may be more reading than you’re up for, but it goes to show that there are so many reasons people don’t leave that the average person doesn’t understand.

One of the best resources I found when I was trying to figure out what was normal and what was not in my relationship is the Relationship Spectrum.

It is so hard when we know the childhood traumas of our abusive partners, we love them, and we share children with them.  It's important to understand that we cannot control their behavior, only our own.

One thing we'll want to work with you on is boundaries, which can help protect you, but not just yet.  An "extinction burst" is when someone reacts strongly when we first set a boundary, and we want to avoid that for now.  Let's first get to know your situation better and focus on building your support network and your confidence and strength so you are confident that you are totally sane and reasonable and able to handle what life is throwing at you.

You need a diverse support network, at least five sources.  Count us as one.  Where else do you get support?  Can you be totally honest with anyone currently in your life about what's going on?

WW

[BeagleGirl]

Seashore,
You definitely are carrying a lot.  I'm really glad that you recognize the importance of coping mechanisms.  Something that has helped me and a lot of other members is to repeat over and over "Put your own oxygen mask on before assisting others".  I fly a lot for work, so I had a built in reminder.  We'll be that reminder for you.  

We often refer to coping mechanisms as "self care".  There are times when self care seems impossible to fit into an already busy schedule, but it falls under the theme of putting your own oxygen mask on.  If you aren't taking care of yourself it becomes nearly impossible to find the energy to start using the tools that are necessary to improve your situation.  

Some self care is really basic.  Getting healthy levels of sleep, exercise and food is key.  Taking time to do things that bring you joy is another.  Setting up and utilizing the diverse support network that Wentworth mentioned is probably the most important.  I know how overwhelming it can be to think about doing those things that are supposed to be good for you, so it's probably good to just pick one at a time and start implementing it.  

It sounds like your husband has been through a lot in his life.  It also sounds like you know that you can't do the work of healing him.  That's a realization that took me a LONG time to get to.  If you have the opportunity for therapy for a limited number of people in your family, I'd look again at the "put your own oxygen mask on" principle and put yourself at the top of the list.

It takes incredible strength and courage to love someone who has repeatedly lashed out at us.  It takes strength of character to admit that you have areas where you can improve and yet more courage to reach out for help.  You are NOT a failure.  Please let us know how things are going and keep asking questions and asking for help where you feel you need it.

BG

[Harley Quinn]

Hi Seashore,

The way you describe your husband sounds a lot like my own experience with my ex partner.  Those lucid moments when he openly hurt and anguished over how he behaved and recognised what he was doing to me were so heartbreaking.  Had things not become physically violent I would still be with him - of that I have no doubt whatsoever in my mind.  You will not be judged here.  We understand, and we can help.  I came here too late.  It is not too late for you.  You acknowledge that this is unhealthy for you as it is, and that things must change somehow in order for the relationship and your own wellbeing to improve.  That's a great start.  

On the one hand I agree I should probably reach out to a DV organization, and it’s advice I’d give to me too, but I’m trying to get him to trust someone in this world, and I can’t do that while going behind his back.

I hear you on that.  What I lost sight of somewhere along the way was the fact that the way to help my partner was to be the healthy one.  To lead by example and to be open about, and honour my own needs.  Whether he liked that or not.  Looking after yourself is going to benefit your family, including him because you will be in a better place to manage the behaviour.  You need to be strong, to be prepared for whatever may happen and it falls to you to keep your whole family safe.  Having a safety plan in place for yourself and the kids is a sensible move, and made a huge difference to my anxiety level.  It can be so hard to think straight when amid the chaos.  A DV advocate can help you with a personalised plan which includes the children.  Here's the link to the safety planning page on the website WW shared with you: Path To Safety  You'll notice there are tabs for safety while living with an abusive partner and also safety planning with children.  I'd recommend you read both.  We also have a helpful document here which can start you off with your own plan: Safety First

One thing I did which may sound a little off the wall was to actually tell my partner I'd gone to get support and guidance.  He knew what his behaviour was like and knew that it wasn't acceptable.  Only you know your own situation in full.  I'd be interested to hear more around what your relationship is like and how your family functions as a unit?  Is your husband able to hold down a job?

We actually have 4 children. I mentioned 2 in my first post. It’s relevant because while I could possibly arrange for therapy for one or two of my kids and me, it would be very very difficult to get all 5 of us somewhere without his noticing. He’s very paranoid, especially about the kids, especially when they aren’t in his presence.

What are the kids' ages?  I'm guessing that if your daughter at almost 2 is the youngest, then at least some of them are in school?  What is H paranoid about regards the kids?  If the kids need counselling then would he stand in the way of that, and if so why?

Deep down he is a good man, who loves so deeply he is terrified.  

It's hard, isn't it?  Knowing this, loving him and yet also getting the brunt of that terror.  Feeling so much compassion for him and being on the receiving end of his fury when he is unable to cope.  This can change, but the change has to come from you.  At least initially.  For me, learning to validate and how not to invalidate was the thing which helped so much to reduce the escalation and this is a priority for you right now.  Things are taking their toll on you.  Let's help you to get to a better place as a starting point.
  

it’s so hurtful for everyone to judge me as being weak, insecure, stupid, or whatever because I refuse to abandon him. He’s had enough of that. He’s pushed a lot of people away already.

I felt the same way and I alienated a lot of people in my life because I didn't handle that well.  My best advice is to ask that they don't give you their opinions about your relationship but just be there for you.  Your friends and family are important, so find the most tactful way you can to express that you wish to speak about other things when you're with them and be careful not to push them away.  Share here about what you're experiencing and let's work on helping you to see some improvements.  

One thing to be mindful of is holding back on healthy behaviours because your husband reacts badly to things and pushes people away.  As you've said, he's done that a lot already with others and he will continue to push - regardless.  In order to be more able to handle that pushing it's vital that you have strength and you'll only get to an even keel in yourself by shifting your view on what you must sacrifice.  You do not need to sacrifice yourself entirely to this.  Without some help and support you cannot carry of all this alone.  

It is important that you show your husband what healthy looks like, and take good care of yourself in every way you can.  Be the change you want to see in your relationship.  (OK so I stole that from Mahatma Gandhi, but you get the idea).  Baby steps Roses.  Perhaps some immediate things you could implement for yourself might be to close the bathroom door (lock it if necessary) and take a hot shower in peace.  Give yourself those 5 or even take a luxurious 10 minutes to yourself.  You could take it further if this goes OK.  Sit down and eat with the family.  Ask for help with the housework.  What do you think?  Any of these sound like things that you can do?  Your husband hasn't had anyone modelling healthy behaviour for him in the past.  I know it sounds hard when you are juggling like crazy as you are.  Give yourself permission if needs be.  It can be very difficult moving towards self care in any shape or form when it is so absent.  We will be your cheerleaders.  

He talked about how exhausting his paranoia is

Paranoia is exhausting.  I saw this with my partner.  It consumed him and he spoke openly of this also.  That's something to validate.  It has to be so hard for him to feel that way.

So my next question is what can I do then? When he’s raw, and trying to face what he runs away from, what should/shouldnt I say to soothe him and allow him to heal? Can I do this without inviting the demon back into the room? Or taking on the work he has to do on his own (or creating the false expectation that I am offering to do so)?

Here's the article and video on validation which is really informative.  I'm hopeful that this will prove helpful.  How does it normally go?  Can you tell us what you usually say?  Anything that seems to work/not work?

Keep posting SeaShore, it really helps.  There is a lot of experience on these boards and we're here for you.  

Love and light x

  

[Seashore]

At the request of pearl via pvt message, I’m posting some more background on the situation to provide insight into the challenge I face regarding reaching out for help:

I will save the [DV hotline]numbers in my notes on my phone (hidden, of course) but I dunno. I had to call poison control about a year ago because he swallowed “a bunch of pills” and drank 3/4 of a bottle of triple sec (ughhhh!) because “I pissed him off.” I have issues with my mother, off and on, which I try to accept. Lots of therapy as a child/teen... .and was feeling sad one day bc she was sabotaging one of our “on” periods. I work at the same company as my mom, and when things go bad, it’s BAD. Her nonsense at work, his at home. He took this personally, obviously, bc I was “choosing to be upset over that f’d up loser” and “treating him like sh*t” by asking for some space to just cry and sort myself out. He responded to my plead for just one night to get my head on straight and shift into “off” w/mom mode by taking 7 painkillers he got illegally from some guy at work and washing them down with liquor. He was not breathing well and his pupils were different sizes so I called PC, and his Dr. (medical). He caught me with the phone and broke it. Another one of those nights we’re i spent my time curled up in a ball in the laundry room in the dirty laundry covering my head while he screamed at me called me a “pig-wh*re” and throwing things. I then called his brother, from his phone, for help, when he went out to the garage for a while. I really thought he was getting his gun out of there (a big, illegal, assault weapon he has as a result of his paranoia). I was fearing what would happen if I called the cops (I really think he would have shot them or been so belligerent they would shoot him). He trusts his brother and usually responds well to him.  His bro claimed he was just “around” to keep him off my case, and was able to get him back to earth and in bed to sleep off the drugs. I watched over him all night thinking he might die, and couldn’t do anything about it. I thought it was over but it turns out he checks the phone records (paranoia, trust) so a month later we had more or less a repeat and he still says that bc of that night he KNOWS I’m a traitor and out for his money by tarnishing his reputation like the “f’ing two-faced lying money-grubbing worthless piece of sh*t c*nt” that “everyone” knows that I am. I am very very careful about phone calls now.

So there’s that.

I am feeling absolutely terrible at this present moment. Rock bottom. I’ve been reading through the info on the effect that uBPD has on children from the perspective of some of the children on this site who have parent(s) with the disorder. And the stuff about abuse. I spent the night crying harder than I ever have. Ever. I saw too much of what happens at our house-and find myself guilty of some of it bc my behavior has been changed by this over the years. The constant need he has for me “to have his back” has translated to “do what I do” or else I face not only his wrath but also 4 misbehaving kids on my own. I feel alone, anguished, angry, hopeless, and crushed. Absolutely crushed by what I face now.

Just last night I HAD to lock my 6 yo (boy) in his room bc after over 2 hrs of getting picked on by my 8 yo (boy) who is a bully (mostly bc of the way his dad treats him) and getting blamed by dad for the abuse he was getting he snapped and hit my oldest son (14), who wasn’t even doing anything, with an oven rack. He was out of control. Lashing out. I had to put him in there bc I have a 2yo daughter, and he was so violent I was afraid for her safety. I also wanted to keep him away from my husband, who I really believe would have hurt him if he found out what happened. All this occurred while I was trying to keep the two boys (8 &6) away from each other. They were both crying and hitting each other when I got home from work. I had gotten an angry call from my husband on the way home and several texts telling me “they r all a$$holes. They are all urs when u get home.” On the phone he was screaming at them, calling them a$$holes, ungrateful little brats, saying “what have we done? These kids are the worst. Specially S8, he used to be such a beautiful sweet baby and now he’s evil. He’s bad, mean, and I’m not proud of him.” Within earshot of S8 and the others.

Needless to say, it was chaos. S6 didn’t even have dinner. He was too upset to eat. S14 has to take care of D2 bc I was busy going from one room to the next, trying to soothe S8, or get him to stop beating S6, and vice versus, and then listen to H tell me I need to get things under control bc he “is busy trying to keep himself calm” and “CANT DEAL WITH THIS SH*T FROM THESE F’ING KIDS! I HATE IT HERE!”

During the entire ordeal, dinner sat out... .I took D2 for a few minutes bc S14 was putting it all away, and I realized I hadn’t even changed or gone to the bathroom when I got home (1.5 or 2 hrs, idk) and had to GO. So I brought D2 to H and said “please, I really need to pee, and she keeps climbing on me on the toilet, please take her for 2 min.” And he glared at me but agreed. When I got out he had brought her to S6’s room and she was breaking his solar system lamp while he just stared at S6. He didn’t say anything but when I asked what was going on he said “you asked me to get involved so I am. Just remember you asked for it” I don’t know why but it was eerie and it really bothered me.

Later, everyone was calm. I had the two boys outside with me while I pushed D2 on the swing. He offered to take just S6 out for ice cream bc “you’re my good boy” S8 said “what about me?” H replied “not you, no way, you don’t deserve it. You just can’t be good.” I kept trying to interrupt him, bc I knew what he was going to say and that it would set S8 off again, and sure enough he jumped off the swing and went afterS6. I said, and maybe this was wrong, but I’m trying to equalize these two AND try to stop the bad behavior on both sides... .”no one deserves ice cream tonight. Not one person in this family behaved well tonight.” That was it. Everyone was crying again, and H started on both of them saying “see? You ruined it!” And to me “you’re right, they don’t deserve it. I don’t know what I’m thinking!” So now you can see that I’m the jerk who ruined the chance for ice cream.

And so this scene has played out a hundred times. I’m not going to sit here and play victim-I am to a certain extent-but I’m participating in this insanity. I don’t stand up for them like I should. I’m caught between trying to be the steady structure and consistent discipline they need and it just seems I’m making things worse. My in laws constantly criticize me because I “make them” put on their shoes to go out the door, or get out of the pool when it’s time for dinner, and stop playing video games at 8:00 so they can get ready for bed. It’s always me. So I’m the “mean” one. I want to just die. When I read the list of “abuse” I wonder how many of those things would my kids accuse me of? Too many.

I’ve let them down. I allowed my H to take away our nanny, who was such a positive influence on them (she was the other “parent” really) because he couldn’t stand her “criticizing him in his own house!” When she would tell him to stop being mean to the kids and bc he could sense that she did not like him. (She did, but she did not approve of his behaviors, which is of course intolerable). It was also bc of his paranoia about money. She was worth EVERY penny we paid her (too little in fact, but not according to him-HIS money is worth more than anyone else’s and I dont have money despite the fact that I earn within $1200 of him annually.) His version of the budget tho is the only correct version, so he fired her after 7 years. She raised 3 of our kids from infancy. Potty trained them. Weaned them. Taught them to read, write, swim, ride bikes... .and he made ME deliver the news. He brokered a deal with his parents behind my back for them to take the kids instead, for free, without asking me. He knew I wouldn’t approve but didn’t care. His discomfort with her and the $ trumped me, the kids, everything. His parents are the ones that created him and this mess. We recently found out that in addition to his blind, brain damaged brother not getting services for his condition, and my H not getting treatment for ADHD as a child (they got him diagnosed, then just did nothing), the third child of these wretched people has AUTISM, and is just now at the age of 32 getting himself treatment! And My H decided these people were the best option. I can’t even tell u how heartbroken, frightened, and angry this “decision” made me, and how much I hate myself for allowing it to happen. It’s getting worse too bc I see how things are deteriorating now that that lifeline was cut out of their, and my life.

Then there’s the fact that bc we “got rid of the nanny” we suddenly could afford a renovation at our house we desperately needed. Please understand, we could afford it before, with some adjustments, but not in his mind. If we don’t save X dollars/month we are “in the red.” His budget goals are totally unreasonable. We even went to a financial planner and HE said that our saving schedule is beyond categorizing as “aggressive,” and suggested that we invest or, “live a little.” He fires that guy. Anyway, we did the renovation and then decided we couldn’t afford the ONE vacation/trip we do a year w/the kids. (We go on ZERO trips just us) We can afford it. But I can’t convince him. He tells the kids tho that it’s bc they were bad last year, so we’re no spending our money on them bc they don’t deserve it. They weren’t great I’ll admit, but part of it is his total intolerance of certain things like waiting, driving in unfamiliar places, being out of his routine, and “my insistence on stressing him out” by planning day trips which require getting out the door at a certain time (very offensive on vacation) and spending MORE money (getting away isn’t enough, we have to just “spend spend spend” or else I’m not happy). He was miserable so he lashed out at them and grew increasingly agitated to the point that we left a park and drove back to our lodging in silence, except for the sniffling of crying kids.

He also sabotaged our discipline method by refusing to honor the rewards they earned. Reason: he didn’t feel like taking them xyz because they “ruined it” by being bad. That’s a big thing with him: if they are good ALL DAY they can “blow it” by making one mistake, by whining, by being kids. It’s not fair, and if I could manage all 4 of them, I’d take them out on my own. But I can’t. All the progress I make on getting them to behave is undone by his promise breaking. They have no incentive so they act up, and I’m stuck chasing them around parking lots or carrying someone out screaming bc they hit their sibling. It’s a vicious circle.

My mom tries to help, but he doesn’t entirely trust her. Her brother is a pedophile (convicted), and, in fairness to him, she has made some questionable choices in regards to him (hence the on again off again relationship with mom, amongst other things). So she can come over, but isn’t “allowed” to take them out of our sight, except for short trips around town. His parents won’t take them except when they r required to; turns out they bit off more than they could chew when they decided to help facilitate firing the “evil nanny.”

I read someone else say that their kids were taken out of therapy by a BPD parent bc the therapist made the mistake of saying “the kids are fine”... .that EXACT thing happened to us... .

Separately, bc I am lost now with this post now that I’ve opened the flood gates, I will delve into the devastation that is our sex life. It just feels wrong I guess to talk about my kids and our sex life in the same post, although of course one led to the other... .

I think I answered the question on our kids ages... .but I’ll summarize:
S14, S8, S6, D2. We’ve been married 9 years, together 12, and my oldest is from a previous relationship which is also material for another day.

[BeagleGirl]

Seashore,
 
I can't thank you enough for being willing to share so many painful experiences.  I know it's not easy to do.  I'm starting to look back at some of my experiences with my dBPDxh and realizing how much shame and guilt I feel.  

When you read back through what you have written, what stands out to you?

How can we best help you?  I know there is tremendous power in just telling your story.  Is there any specific area you want feedback on?  For the record, I think you are doing a tremendous job managing your situation.  

It's not quite right to say that I'm "looking forward" to reading what you have to post about the sexual component of your relationship, but it's an area of woundedness that I think I may relate to and I know the courage it takes to share something so intimate.  So thank you in advance for being willing to be open.  I know there are a lot of people who will feel less alone as they read what you have to write.

BG

[Seashore]

BG I went back through my post and the thing that stood out to me was how many times I have placated H to everyone’s detriment. And that’s just in the incidents I recounted. In the span of a day, week, month, the total gets ever higher. It’s done no good for anyone. Even in the moment if he gets what he wants it’s not enough. I have said so many times in the heat of the moment either “I didn’t have a crystal ball then” or “I don’t have a time machine so I can’t go back and change X” because no matter what, he either knew something would happen and is mad bc it did and it’s done and there’s no going back or I should have known something (that no one could know except in hindsight) and acted differently. It’s likr there’s no going forward with him. He’s either in the past or strictly the present.

Except when he’s ruminating about all the misfortune and ruin he is certain is coming because it’s “what he deserves.” That’s the only attention to the future I get.

For now, what I need is to get all this out. I spent the majority of my morning a wreck. I sat in a conference room today and cried at work. I do talk to people but my accounts of things are watered down and I have a knack for making light of it after all. Laughter can really help. Even watered down, some of my co-workers that I’m close to can’t hide their shock at some of the things he says, and his attitudes/ideas. Like the budget stuff. Mostly people who know me can’t believe I’d tolerate it. If only they knew. So I need this place, until I can get myself in T, and the kids. I need MY feelings heard and validated without fear of backlash.

I also need to know if there’s anything I could suggest for him to read to help with the paranoia. In the last few days, he’s expressed more than once that he wants to get a handle on it. For now he has been “flipping the off switch” when he starts “down the rabbit hole” but he said he would like to not have to “flip it so often.” He asked me if I ever have to redirect my thoughts about the cops coming to take me away when I pass one on the highway, and when I said no he seemed a little surprised and a little concerned. I think he’s starting to see some (not as much as he should but it’s a start) of his thoughts/feelings/behaviors as abnormal. He still refuses to see a therapist, or anyone, and I don’t dare suggest he has a disorder or “mental illness” so anything I suggest has to be more “self help” in nature, if that makes sense.  I got him to agree, while in a rare reflective mood, that if I give him some time (6 months) to work on this (paranoia) on his own, if I don’t see a dramatic improvement he will seek professional help. I made him promise, “he’s bound by contract” to trust MY judgment and mine alone. I think he means it-he seems defeated lately, when he’s not angry and yelling.

I read on here that it’s not a good idea to encourage pwBPD too much because it makes them regress. So when he says “I was going to get mad, but I waited, and it turns out the guy forgot and didn’t do it just to aggravate me or bc he doesn’t care. He just made a mistake. It’s a good thing I didn’t het worked up and delete his ticket to teach him a lesson. That would have been on me” I am careful not to say “great job!” Or “see? That wasn’t so hard.” Instead I say “it must have been tough to feel ignored for a minute there. I’m glad you were able to be patient. It isn’t easy to be so self-aware.” So that he feels validated and his effort acknowledged. Am I on the right track?

My kids go back to school tomorrow, and I’m glad because the routine helps him a lot, and the kids get out of the doldrums (my inlaws’ house).  However, I realized that I forgot to get them new lunchboxes so they have to use the ratty ones from last year. That abuse checklist is really getting to me. If I had a “normal” home life, I could run out and get them tonight, or send their dad to do it, but alas, we are far from normal. I will have to do it this weekend.

[Radcliff]

Seashore,

The most important message I can give you is to not be so hard on yourself.  If you were to get involved with a DV support group, or read Lundy Bancroft's books, Why Does He Do That? or When Daddy Hits Mommy (which is relevant to more than just hitting), you'd see that DV survivors are all experiencing unbelievable pressures, and all bend their values in order to get by from day to day.  None of the "failures" you are placing on yourself are unique to you.  They are classic.  You are in an impossible situation.  No matter how brilliant you are, you cannot fix this without help.  Life has situations like that.  You fall in a pit and need someone with a rope to pull you out... .you are in a car wreck and you need an ambulance.  Figuring out how to get help and move forward is tricky, so it won't happen right away, but don't let another day go by thinking that you should be able to fix this situation alone.  Your efforts are heroic.  You are doing all that you can, and then some.  Can you believe that and remember it?

The fact that you are soft-pedaling about what's going when you talk to people at work is understandable.  Minimizing is one of the things we do in order to get by.  But it helps to trap us.  Is there anyone you can tell the whole scoop to?  The unvarnished truth?

WW

[NeedsHelp]

BG I went back through my post and the thing that stood out to me was how many times I have placated H to everyone’s detriment. And that’s just in the incidents I recounted. In the span of a day, week, month, the total gets ever higher. It’s done no good for anyone.

I am sorry to hear that you are going through this. I am in a slightly similar situation. Pretty much doing whatever it takes to keep him from threatening to leave (as this is how he manipulates/controls me). I only have one child but fear him being left alone with him as he has been violent toward him in front of me. Thinking of you.

[Seashore]

WW, I am working very hard at believing in myself, and that I’m doing all that I can. It’s just so much work. And now I have H telling me: “I’ve been weird this week, I don’t know what’s up with you, but whatever it is, I don’t like it. You think you’re better than me all of a sudden and are talking to me like I’m damaged goods. I’m not your patient. You aren’t a shrink. You have problems. Stop trying to change who I am. I am dominant and you are submissive and that’s it. You try to change me and I’m out. I have other options. Other women who would love to be with me and not try to change me. If you are unhappy you should just leave, because I’m telling you that it’ll be you that leaves. You can take the clothes in your closet, those are yours but the rest stays. This is mine. The kids, mine. The house, mine. So go on and get out, go crawl back to your mom with nothing. If you won’t go, I’ll have you dragged out of here, for good, by your hair with one phone call. One phone call. I know people who can make that happen for me.” All the work I’m doing... .for what?

This is his response to my attempts at SET, and me standing my ground on a boundary (more on that later) He thinks I’m “shrinking” him because I’m not getting defensive or arguing (even calmly) or allowing his words to (visibly) affect me.  I don’t know if I’m doing it wrong but he says I am... .based on the fact that he has discovered this website. I don’t know how much I can say here now. He spends a lot of time “searching for traces of myself” online to make sure there’s “nothing on me anywhere.”

I don’t know if I’m comforted or scared that he found this website... .I have a feeling he’s here because he knows he is a pwBPD or at least knows he has the traits of one. He actually admitted, when I asked him what site this was (a little deception on my part, but only bc he is so sensitive to even a hint that I might be investigating that something is wrong with him) he said oh it’s all about personality disorders but I don’t have one, I’m just using the resources here to help me with my problems with paranoia and anger. I’m not mentally ill. I thought I had NPD for a while but I got tested and it was negative. I’ve seen a bunch of dr’s and they all said I don’t have anxiety, personality disorders, depression, or any of that. I just have anger problems. I don’t need a dr to tell me that I already know it so I don’t need therapy. I made a mistake talking to you because now you think you can control me. You think you can show me a little chart you found on a webpage and you can ‘fix’ me. I’ll find someone else who wants me if you don’t cut the s**t.” So amongst all that I hear that he went to therapy and he heard
something he didn’t like so he stopped going. Or, he heard them say something meant to be encouraging ‘you are going to get through this’ or ‘you are not a failure, worthless (or whatever) don’t be so hard on yourself’ which was what he wanted to hear and used it to justify not going back. Either way, at some point, someone, either a dr., SO, or he himself thought he was in need of an evaluation. It makes me sad and mad that this secret was kept from me. Sad bc he has such shame, which so many people do, and mad bc mental illness is something he should not have hidden. I’ve always been candid with him about my issues, even tho he uses the information against me.

I want to salvage this relationship. When I look at the big picture, it’s worth saving. We have bad times, that are BAD, but we have a lot of good times too. I consider him my best friend, always. It seems like maybe he isn’t willing to do the work tho. It’s too easy for him to run, and blame me. He has said many times that “I push him away” and “I just like all his other stupid ex’s trying to change him so he has to go find someone else who wants him as he is.” I’m not sure what to say. Lately I’ve been treating it like his other fake threats and either not responding or saying that I hear him saying I am pushing him away and he doesn’t feel appreciated and valued. Either way he’s upset. I’m either ignoring him “giving the cold shoulder” or “shrinking” him. Ugh! I am afraid that no matter what I want or do, if he wants out he will get it like he always does. He’ll either cheat or just disengage entirely. I don’t know what’s worse. I do know that I have to prepare myself mentally and financially either way. I anticipate it will be ugly.

I think I have to step back from this for a bit. I’m “aggressively” seeking support via a therapist IRL. I wish someone would call me back. It’s ridiculously hard to get a T lately. I’m ready to walk into a clinic if it’ll get me heard. For now I told him that I will “leave him alone” if that’s what he wants but if he does want support, he will have to ask for it specifically. I will no longer try to guess or anticipate his needs and how to deliver. He HAS to be upfront and precise. He seemed ok with that. I also encouraged him to try to find someone he could talk to. Someone impartial (not his parents, who would only fan the flames.) He seemed to be in agreement with that too.  Finally, I asked him to take some time to reflect on whether the “investment” in our marriage was enough for him to work at improving it. Not at changing him or me, but working at communicating better and being a better team. I used the renovations on our old house that we both love as an analogy (spend some, which sucks, be uncomfortable for 8 weeks, which sucks, and then reap the rewards, both in equity and quality of life) to demonstrate MY perspective on our marriage but told him he should form his own analogy to help me see what he sees. I asked him to write it down so I can read it.

I will elaborate on that boundaries debacle another time. I have to try to work. I also want to make sure he’s not digging any deeper here than the resources and reading material.

[pearlsw]

Hi Seashore,

Sorry to hear about how difficult things are!

Wanted to share a few links with you that might help at this time:

BPD Behaviors: Extinction Bursts

Can I Be Found Out?

Often things can get worse, as we are trying to make them better. You had a good analogy here with this construction example!

Are there any times he is calm lately? Ever a time is more receptive to your concerns and desire to improve things?

wishing you the best, pearl.

[Radcliff]

I have other options. Other women who would love to be with me and not try to change me. If you are unhappy you should just leave, because I’m telling you that it’ll be you that leaves. You can take the clothes in your closet, those are yours but the rest stays. This is mine. The kids, mine. The house, mine. So go on and get out, go crawl back to your mom with nothing. If you won’t go, I’ll have you dragged out of here, for good, by your hair with one phone call. One phone call. I know people who can make that happen for me.”  

This is concerning.  I know you understand that none of this is true or appropriate, but I want to say that out loud.  This sense of entitlement is characteristic of an abuser.  Let me mention again Lundy Bancroft's Why Does He Do That?  He also has a book called Should I Stay Or Should I Go? for folks who are hoping they can work things out but are starting from an abusive situation.  Would you be willing to read one of those two books?  I believe you'd find them to be quite helpful.

Your desire to preserve the relationship is understandable.  I've been there.  I'm not trying to discourage you, but it's also important to understand that you're dealing with more than BPD.  Abuse overlaps with BPD, but at a certain point it becomes a separate thing and you actually have two problems to "go to school" on.

I don’t know if I’m comforted or scared that he found this website... .

This site is for you.  It won't help him.  You want him to move on and forget about it.  Do you and he share a computer?  What kind of device do you use to access the site?  Does he have access to it?

RC

[Seashore]

I am trying to get my hands on those books without detection. I don’t have a lot of free time. I can barely leave to go to the pharmacy without him getting all huffy bc I left him with the kids, and after all, he’s with them for 2 hrs every night before I get home from work. I don’t have the kind of job where I can leave either without having to make up the time. I scurry home as fast as I can so that there’s a chance I might make it in the house before he starts on me.

I get on this site from my cellphone and I use my data, not my WiFi to avoid detection on the router. I keep my phone locked and on me all the time. I have to be better about logging out, I forget, or get distracted (I am ADHD and barely functioning in that regard right now) but I usually have 10 things open at once so this gets buried. He is an IT professional.  The reality is if he ever wanted to know what I’ve done on this phone, he could know. If not him, someone he knows. It’s what he does for a living. I am doing the best I can to keep things at a point where he doesn’t feel the need to violate my privacy in that way. However, he has looked at phone records in the past, and I don’t even know why he did-it wasn’t in reaction to anything I could pinpoint; probably just his paranoia in general fueled the investigation. I suppose that could happen with my device.

He does feel entitled. “I deserve better than this” is his favorite line. When I have said that that comment is hurtful to me and the kids (S14 and S8 are affected by it for sure) he says that it’s our own insecurities and it’s not his fault. Or, it’s bc we are guilty and we know it and don’t like “hearing the truth.” He values honesty, so he says, above all else and uses it as justification to say really mean things.

I hear what you are saying WW, about the abuse. I have for a while suspected he has crossed into that category, or, perhaps I’ve just opened my eyes to it. There were plenty of “incidents” when were dating that in retrospect should have been a red flag. Isn’t that always the way? In regards to hindsight that is.

For example: when we first moved in together, and it was just me, him, and my oldest son (4 at the time) I was teaching an art class at night to get some extra cash, but mostly because I loved it. I had given up being a full time artist to support my son, and it was hard. The class was my way of staying in it for my happiness. It was about the money for him tho. I made $50 a class. Very often, I would forget to take my envelope w/cash when I closed the studio bc I was tired. I worked 8-4, and then taught 6-8, then had to close and drive home, so it was usually 10pm. The first thing he’d say was “How was it?” Then before I could really get into my night, he’d say “did you get your money?” If I had forgotten, it would be a fight. If I remembered and I didn’t immediately put the money in the desk drawer (our “drawer money” which we used for gas, food deliveries, etc... .pocket money in other words) he’d get on me. I couldn’t shower, kiss my kid, eat, pee, or anything unless I made a bee line for that g*dd*mn drawer. One night I had had enough of him and the friggin drawer so I told him I was never putting the money in the drawer after my class ever again. I use to use it to fill my tank in my car the next day anyway, and then I’d put the rest in, if I didn’t buy myself lunch. “It’s MY money, MY time, MY class, MY car, and MY choice what the h*ll I do with it!” You can imagine how this went. He went ballistic. One of the first tantrums I saw that really scared me to the point I thought I’d have to call the cops. He was punching the walls. He smashed a door that was right next to my head and put his fist right through it. The theme of this disagreement was that I refused to be controlled, and he was p*ssed. His way or the highway, bc after all, he had “given me everything I had.” At that point, I was paying rent, and half of everything w/my own money that earned at my job, which I drove to in my piece of crap beat down car that I owned, registered, and insured. I was very proud of my accomplishment and independence. So I fought hard. We woke poor S up, who was terrified. He snapped out of it when he saw S standing there asking him why he was yelling at his mom.

Well, it was a problem for him that I got home so late too. In his mind, if “I did it right, I’d be outta there at 8” and I was “letting people walk all over me as usual” if I let someone finish and didn’t drop the hammer right at 8. He would repeat over and over like I wasn’t listening “time worked equals time paid” and it didn’t matter if I was helping someone, enjoying some conversation, going to the bathroom, or whatever. I would try to explain, and he’d talk over me. He’d finally say “I give up, it’s like I’m talking to a retarded person.” It was incredibly frustrating. I dug deep to “align our values” which I see now was not really that. I was me working hard to move my boundaries back to a point where HE was comfortable and I could avoid his wrath. I still resent the level of control he expects and I’ve given him over my life.

I haven’t done my art in over 8 years. I broke down my studio 4 years ago after he made me make gifts for H’s aunt and uncle for Christmas. These people never get me gifts, btw. They barely acknowledge my presence at family functions. Not once in 12 years have they even pretended to be nice to me, but I slaved away out there to make beautiful hand made “thoughtful” gifts for them bc H has a deep need to impress them and “earn” the nice gifts they get for him and our kids. I broke down the studio after bc I couldn’t stand that it has been taken away from me, except if H wants something done. It was haunting me. A reminder of what I gave up. Btw-I am very talented. Best in the area, at one time. And I was a great teacher. People still call me and want me to teach them. He made it so difficult to do what I loved that I stopped loving it. If this isn’t abuse I don’t know what is. I don’t know if it’s good or bad that I still have pride in this area... .some days I wish I didn’t so it wouldn’t hurt so much that I have this “empty pride.”

He plays guitar btw, but it is a “profitable” thing bc he teaches (more than one class for “real” money not a “lousy $50 which you just spend anyway”) and guitars are assets while my supplies and tools are worth nothing. That’s his justification for why I had to give up my “hobby.” He hasn’t taught in 6 years but he buys and sells guitars constantly (assets!) and plays everyday. He is also very talented, and I encourage him to take the time to stay sharp, be creative, and do something enjoyable. This respect and courtesy has never been reciprocated. There is nothing I could do that is worth HIS time. My time is HIS time after all. If I’m not making money, or he gets some benefit, I’m not going to do it, one way or another.

Anyway, the control I’ve relinquished, the boundaries that I moved-it didn’t happen overnight, and it didn’t happen TO me. I did it to myself. Or, is that victim blaming? How much responsibility do I take? He says sometimes he wants the girl he married back, and I want to scream at him that he never wanted me-otherwise why has he made it his business to whittle me down into what I’ve become? Why has he invested so much energy into beating down my individuality, independence, charity, talent, honesty (I have to sneak more often than I want), and everything else he used to claim set me apart from other people. I suppose the answers are in those books I have to secretly read.

Is it normal to feel love and hate at the same time? Feel feel sympathy and anger? Am I turning into him?

I feel simply dreadful at times. Only capable of crying. At others, I feel like a jerk for having these thoughts and opening my mouth at all because he’s (at the moment) being supportive, caring, sweet, funny, tender... .all the things I love about him. And then other times I’m just confused. In our more productive conversations, we both agree that all we want for each other is to be the best versions of ourselves. In these moments I feel like I did back in ‘08 when I convinced myself to “stop being stubborn” about the drawer money-I was being stubborn, I rationalized, it IS me, I DO need to grow up “why am I making such a big deal about this?” Said my own voice in my head instead of him to me, and I considered it self improvement and the cost of being in a relationship. We both have to compromise, right?  Even now, I sit here and think the words he’s said so many times “I DO have problems, I DO need help, it IS me.” But the difference is that I can no longer compromise. I have finally reached the point where the boundary can’t move anymore. He keeps trying tho... .

[Buzz2]

Hi Seashore,

I have been following your post and I wanted to chime in.  First of all, let me give you a virtual   because it sounds like you need it and I truly empathize with your situation.

My SO has NPD and BPD and while there is a great deal of overlap in both symptom presentation as well as how we as partners address our situations, there are definite distinctions.  I see a lot of similarities in your partner's behavior and what I see in mine.  

I echo what Wentworth has said about abuse - it is definitely that - and I defer to WW's expertise in suggestions and recommendations.  I just wanted to throw out there the NPD concept as it might be something helpful to read/learn about.

Please take care and be very careful.  I am worried about you.

Buzz

[Radcliff]

Wow, RedRoses, that is powerful testimony.  The stripping away, over time, of hobbies, connections, money earning -- one's independent identity -- is characteristic of abusive relationships.  A particularly helpful page on abuse defined shows how many different forms of abuse there can be, in particularly non-physical controlling behaviors.  That page contains the Power and Control Wheel, an often-used graphic to describe the many facets of abuse.

In his book, Coercive Control: How Men Entrap Women in Personal Life, one of the things that Evan Stark talks about is how survivors combat this.  One strategy is to develop "islands of independence" that are hidden.  This can be anything at all that you are doing on your own initiative.  Stopping in the park on the way home from work for five minutes to breathe.  Meditating in the garage while supposedly folding laundry.  Flipping the toilet paper roll "your way" when you're in the bathroom, then flipping it back "his way" when you're done.  "Skimming" money for a safety fund.  Reading abuse books was one of my islands.  I got a separate online book merchant account tied to an e-mail account my wife didn't know about.  From my computer, I bought the Lundy Bancroft books, and many others, and downloaded them only to the e-reader my phone, where I read them during short breaks at work or at home (or in the park on the way home.

Anyway, the control I’ve relinquished, the boundaries that I moved-it didn’t happen overnight, and it didn’t happen TO me. I did it to myself. Or, is that victim blaming? How much responsibility do I take? He says sometimes he wants the girl he married back, and I want to scream at him that he never wanted me-otherwise why has he made it his business to whittle me down into what I’ve become? Why has he invested so much energy into beating down my individuality, independence, charity, talent, honesty (I have to sneak more often than I want), and everything else he used to claim set me apart from other people. I suppose the answers are in those books I have to secretly read.

Do not feel bad or responsible for what has happened.  It's not appropriate to blame the victim.  We do play a part in the dynamic that allows abuse to happen, and realizing the part we are playing is important for us to understand in order to get onto a healthier path.  But that's a pretty tricky concept and I hesitate to write it, because it's dangerous to take on too much blame.  Look at it this way -- you slowly became trapped in quicksand that has trapped many smart, independent women and men before you.  Getting out of the quicksand is going to require you to become determined to do so, building strength, learning skills, getting help, safety planning, etc.

Is it normal to feel love and hate at the same time? Feel feel sympathy and anger? Am I turning into him?

Yes.  Totally normal.  No, you are not turning into him.  When subjected to the types of pressure you are under, it is not unusual for our moods to swing rapidly or for us to experience other symptoms that can frighten us a bit and make us feel unstable, or even wonder if we are the crazy ones.  Our abusive partner may try to convince us that this is so.

I feel simply dreadful at times. Only capable of crying. At others, I feel like a jerk for having these thoughts and opening my mouth at all because he’s (at the moment) being supportive, caring, sweet, funny, tender... .all the things I love about him. And then other times I’m just confused. In our more productive conversations, we both agree that all we want for each other is to be the best versions of ourselves. In these moments I feel like I did back in ‘08 when I convinced myself to “stop being stubborn” about the drawer money-I was being stubborn, I rationalized, it IS me, I DO need to grow up “why am I making such a big deal about this?” Said my own voice in my head instead of him to me, and I considered it self improvement and the cost of being in a relationship. We both have to compromise, right?  Even now, I sit here and think the words he’s said so many times “I DO have problems, I DO need help, it IS me.” But the difference is that I can no longer compromise. I have finally reached the point where the boundary can’t move anymore. He keeps trying tho... .

If our partners were pure monsters, we'd never be in an abusive relationship.  The only thing that can keep us around is if they are sometimes wonderful.  It can be incredibly difficult to wrap our heads around how to view the whole relationship when it ranges from blissful to frightening.  In a healthy relationship, the abusive times would never happen.  I'll never forget when my wife and I were arguing in front of a therapist about how often abusive names had been used in our marriage, and the therapist stopped us and said, "It's not a question of how often.  I've been married 34 years, and none of those words has ever been said in my marriage in that time."


Back to the issue of independence and identity, here are a couple of questions:

What areas of independence or identity are currently under threat, but are not lost yet?  Where you might be able to stop the slide?

What new or reclaimed islands of independence or identity could you create without provoking a strong response from him?

RC

[jxeer]

Hi, Seashore

Thank you for expressing your feelings and experiences here with us. It's really hard to not judge and blame ourselves when someone we love and value regularly blames and accuses us - but we are each responsible for our own thoughts, feelings & behavior. You didn't create his anger, you can't control it and you deserve to live a life not controlled by it. I have been attending 12-Steps program called CoDA or Codependents Anonymous for the past 3 years. It's a really excellent [FREE] group-therapy program that gives you space to vent and receive in-person support and begin to heal from the past traumas that brought you into this situation. If you haven't ever attended, I highly recommend looking up a meeting in your area - or even a phone meeting if you can't leave the house without his permission.

Also, have you heard of the Karpman Drama Triangle? I think reading about it will bring you a lot of insight into some of the volatile dynamics between you and your husband. You can read more about it here:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

Wishing you the best,
J

[LJS0617]

This is sadly very similar to my situation. Bait and hook. Damned if so, damned if don’t. Based on no logic, truth or reason he comes at me when things in his life are not stable or feel off to him. Disappointment, fear or all or nothing. He lives the “what if” scenario daily and never can let life or things be. The worst is gonna happen to him and that is all my fault. I would love to hear what works and doesn’t. For me, it was getting very very good at boundaries and enforcing consequences no matter if they made my life harder also. It’s hard when we love to do things that feel so much like not loving. Hugs

[Harley Quinn]

Hi Seashore

It's been a few days since you posted.  When you get a chance would you let us know you're OK? Thinking of you.  

Love and light x

[Seashore]

I appreciate that folks here are thinking of me. I’m ok I guess. I finally got a therapist to call me back but she has a pretty strong opinion already that I should just leave. In fact the first meeting I had with her, which was an introduction by my primary care dr, she came into the room and said “hi I’m _____. Dr. Blonde says you’re having a tough time, so let’s get started on a restraining order.” Both me and my Dr looked at her sort of confused, and my Dr said “no, I think for now she just needs someone to talk to.” The T seemed annoyed, but made me an appt a few days later. At that appt she was still talking about a “plan” for me to leave. I told her I don’t want to leave. Her attitude is that more or less I’m too weak and enmeshed to contemplate it. I don’t agree with the weakness part, but certainly I am enmeshed, like any mother is with her family. What I DO need to work on is being less enmeshed emotionally with H, and financially as well.  I will keep going to her for a bit and see if she can get over her personal agenda for me and help me with my issues, and what I want to do. If she can’t ill find someone else who is perhaps more suited to helping someone in my situation.

I’ve started reading Bancrofts “why does he do that” and I see some of my H’s behaviors in there but not all of it fits.  Still, being aware of how much he can control and how much he can’t is helpful for me to begin setting new expectations for our relationship. I can and will expect him to stop being abusive, first and foremost. I can’t expect his emotions to be normal. I can expect to be respected, and be safe. I can expect to be the sole provider of emotional stability in my family for my kids. I can’t expect H to change overnight, or into someone who isn’t BPD. Right now, I have to let go of whatever image I had in my head of our future because it’s a fabrication not based on facts.  I think that’s the hardest part... .realizing there might not be a “till death do us part.” We might not make it past “sickness.”

Someone posted something about codependency... .I’m sure it’s helpful for some folks and I appreciate the information, but I don’t feel like I’m a codependent person. None of my boundaries were truly moved voluntarily. I’ve resented every bit of unreciprocated compromise. I quite highly value my independence, and self reliance. Even when H says I’m nothing, and would be nothing without him, Etc, during his rages, I know he’s full of s***.

One of the revelations I’ve had in the last couple of days, since I started seeing a T (which H knows about) is that my independence, and fierce defense of my self worth is a huge trigger for him. H has always been a caretaker. His mom was always pathetic, and both his parents insisted he be his handicapped brother’s protector. They made him take his bro to parties, out with his friends... .their whole family revolves around d taking care of “poor brother who got screwed by the universe.” He went off the rails when he finally moved out in his 20’s. Listening to him talk about the drug use, promiscuity, terrible relationships, fights, and poor financial decisions, it’s clear it was a very long downward spiral into the pits of BPD despair. It was during this time, come to find out, he sought a diagnosis for what was wrong with him. Unfortunately, I don’t think he was completely honest in therapy, because of his paranoia (he says that started when he hit puberty, and can’t pinpoint an event or trigger), so an accurate diagnosis was impossible.

He snapped out of this when he met me. I was a mess. Just out of a dysfunctional relationship with S14’s father, and living on the edge of poverty.  I was a “starving artist” and single mom. I was also relieved to be alone. When we started dating all I wanted was some fun in my life to break up the 16 hour days of toil. And H was all that. He swooped in and gave me a new social life, took me out to dinner, and made me smile. We partied a bit too much in the beginning and I noticed he was a totally different person when intoxicated or high. MEAN. I gave him an ultimatum: either we got sober together (more for him than me) or we were done. He chose sobriety. We moved in together, we got married, had more kids, moved... .and here we are.

Anyway, as I look back on every time things have been bad, it’s always been in the wake of some achievement or when things are going positively for me. Any step I take that makes him feel like I don’t “need” him, or “appreciate” him as he calls it, is a sign that I am taking him for granted. He then starts talking about leaving. To be with someone who WANTS to be with him, and can say thank you for all he does. He complains incessantly that he has to “do everything for everyone” and then as soon as the burden is lifted he’s lost and angry. He also doesn’t do it for free. Unrestrained adoration and praise are a must. No criticism allowed, and don’t ASK for anything or else the “isn’t everything enough!you want more? You pig!” rant will start.

One of the symptoms of BPD that I couldn’t match him up with was the lack of an identity of his own. I know he has values and interests and all that, and he doesn’t change much when around different ppl, so I didn’t think that he has an identity problem. I see now that he does. He doesn’t exist on his own. He only exists in one role:caretaker. If he’s not tending to someone’s needs, he’s adrift, alone with himself and his problems he doesn’t want to face. He can’t stand it. Just this last weekend, he snapped out of the terrible mood he’s been in bc now that I’m in therapy, he is going to “fix me.” “We’re gonna get you better, don’t worry. I’ll take care of everything, you just get better.” I’m not fooled tho. This is a direct avoidance of having to work on himself, it’s a way to blame me (in a round about way) for our troubles lately, and it’s an excuse for him to squeeze gratitude out of me in the future when he needs to feel better about himself.

So right now I’m wondering if after we both do some work on ourselves, is his need to take care of someone so strong that he CANT be with someone who doesn’t “need” him? I am worried that he prioritizes being “the strong one” (which is ironic, since he is not as strong as he thinks) so much that he can’t be with me once I am at a point where I have regained my independent spirit and self reliance? The things I will always need from a partner: intimacy, trust, emotional support*, love, kindness, compassion, respect... .can he be satisfied with providing those (*if he is even capable of it, in the case of emotional support?) I’m not sure. I especially wonder about what happens when I am more financially independent. I just bought a car, on my own, and he has commented 6 times (I’m keeping track, to see how many before it’s a blow out) that I don’t need to do that-he doesn’t really mean it when he says everything is his and I’ll have nothing when he kicks me out. Or he says, “you made such a big deal about doing the financing on your own. You kept emphasizing ‘in my name, ^only^,’ over and over. It was awkward.” I know this is bothering him. He loves to rub it in my face that he was well off when we met, and I had 10 bucks and a 94 Altima with an empty gas tank and 500,000 miles. I’m not sure what he likes more-the money itself or the sense of control he thinks it gives him... .

That’s my update for today. I’m going to try to sleep. I was prescribed some anxiety meds for night time so I can “turn off” the hyper vigilance for a bit. My dr says I am quite sleep deprived, because I more or less just “rest my eyes” all night. I haven’t taken it yet (there’s that independence-i want to do it on my own!), but I might tonight. I’m mentally, physically, and emotionally drained.

[Radcliff]

Seashore, I'm so sorry you didn't get a reply to your substantial post, above!  It's been a while.  How are you doing?

RC

[Radcliff]

I'm sorry to hear about the therapist.  It doesn't sound like she is up with 21st century domestic violence practice.  Supporting the survivor in her or his self determination is a big deal.  There are many reasons why someone may not want to leave, or may not be ready to leave.  One way you might be able to use the help of this T is to simply accept her bias, and use her help to explore that angle of things.  Talk about an exit plan as a hypothetical, without attaching any time frame to it.

Another Bancroft book that could be helpful in your situation is, Should I Stay or Should I Go?  The title is pretty self-explanatory.  He talks about how to assess the situation for the potential for things to improve.

Your sense of independence is a helpful protective factor for you.  Though I might advise saying things like "in my name only" for the car title over and over to yourself, not out loud to him.  Congrats on the car, though, that's a big deal.

If that therapist were to have aced her first session with you, earned a five star review from you, what kind of help and support would she have given you?

RC

[Seashore]

How could the T have earned 5 stars? Well, she could have been more validating. She could have asked more questions about what I want before expressing her opinion. I’ve had a few more sessions with her now and she is more realistic now. I mean, it would be an excruciatingly difficult task to LEAVE. With 4 kids, a mortgage, three cars, and everything else it’s like asking me to jump in a rocket ship to the moon.

And, I don’t necessarily want to leave. Not now. There are many things about my life that I don’t want to lose, and I will, if I were to just abandon ship. But if I carefully, patiently, sectretly build my own ship, I might be able to have everything I want (a nice, safe home, financial security and independence, my children, my cat, my cars, my job, my mental, physical, emotional, and sexual wellbeing) and can sail off into the sunset, happily ever after. I wish my H can be there, but my picture is complete without him, if that’s what he chooses.

So she has accepted my plan, which is to make myself whole again. Push some of the boundaries back out to give myself some breathing room. The reality is, I think H will end up leaving me. I think he’ll cheat, bc he knows that will hurt me the most. He’ll blame me for being “distant” and “unloving” and “asexual” and “self-righteous”. Then his prophecy will come true, that I used him for his money and then left him (which I will if he has an affair-even once.). This is what I need to prepare myself for.  I have read so many posts here that all point in this direction.

If by some miracle he does accept my boundaries and can learn to live with them, I can probably learn to live with his problems, minus the abuse. That HAS to stop. For now he has made sincere efforts to address that, although I’m not sure if it’s merely superficial. Time will tell.

Me and the T are working on the sadness and grief I’m experiencing. I feel like my H has died. Right now, while he’s doing well, it’s like he’s a ghost, and it makes me sad. Makes me miss him-or, who I thought he was.  I know he’ll vanish, and I’ll be stuck with Mr. Hyde. He can tell something is wrong. But I can’t tell him. He keeps saying he wants to help me but he can’t. It’s kind of ironic how we are both so lonely, and can’t help each other despite our proximity. I say proximity bc I have slipped so far away from him emotionally, that I can’t say “closeness.”

Perhaps I need to start a new thread in regards to how do folks who stay in their relationships with their BPD loved ones and enjoy intimacy? Emotional intimacy, that is. Do they rely on friends? Therapists? Relatives? I don’t know if I can go my whole life keeping my inner self totally closed off. I’ll need a shoulder to cry on eventually. Or a genuine congratulations when I achieve (right now I get requests for acknowledgment and praise of H’s contribution to EVERYTHING I do)

I have so much, really, but right now it feels like it’s behind glass, or it’s a screen and I’m in an empty studio. It’s an illusion of a perfect life-the kids, the house, the marriage, our life. I just can’t feel any of it at the moment.

[Radcliff]

You've painted a very detailed picture of your thoughts and emotions about your situation.  I'm sure that will be helpful for others in similar situations to read.  Your idea of starting a thread asking members how they get their emotional needs met is a good one.  You might get some good discussions going.  I imagine some of the answers would involve broadening your support network and making sure you're able to be open with friends and family, which is also the kind of thing to be doing when you're pushing back against abuse.

I see that we haven't mentioned the MOSAIC survey to you yet.  As you start to push back against the abuse and enforce boundaries, he may react against it, so it's a good time to do a little risk assessment.  If you take the survey, it will give you a score.  Come back and let us know what your score is; it will help us to understand your situation.

That's great that your T is adjusting to meet you where you are.  Tell us more about your plans to push back against the abuse.  What are the types of boundaries you are planning to draw?  Is there a plan yet to put them into effect?

RC

[Seashore]

Radcliff, if that was supposed to be a link, it didn’t work. It said that I don’t have permission to view the page or it has moved. I will take it if I can get to it.

The boundaries that I need to establish are in regards to my friendships and my time. They relate to each other. I have NO time to myself. I get phone calls and texts while I’m out, I have a time limit (which I didn’t necessarily agree to), and I get “punished” when I get home, or, at some random time later, with silent treatment, rage, resentment, or some other unpleasantness. It makes it impossible to maintain friendships. I also have to endure endless criticism of either my friends directly, or of me for who I choose as friends. If I ever have a disagreement with a friend, or feel hurt, he badgers me until I withdraw from the friendship. In any scenario, whether I’m out shopping alone, just to have some alone time, or if I’m with a friend, H is upset bc I’m “choosing XYZ over him.” Even charity work is not supported bc after all, “I have $hit to do around here.” I feel like a caged animal right now, so first and foremost I’d like to work towards making my time my own. Then I’d like to make my friendships off limits. I get to choose my friends, and actually spend time (or gasp! money) with them.

The boundary that REALLY needs the most work, that I’m not ready to tackle until I have more practice and strength is in regards to my body, and intimacy. Unfortunately the longer I wait, the worse it gets, but I have to get it right or the consequences will be too great.  I don’t have the option to say no to him right now. His “needs” are my responsibility, whether I am willing or not. He never outright forces me, physically, but he pesters, begs, sulks, threatens, molests, etc until he gets his way. He even wakes me up with his attempts and claims “he was sleeping” and didn’t know what he was doing. Please. At times when I am willing, he always uses the opportunity to try to get EVERYTHING he “has been holding back on out of respect” which means it usually ends up a bad experience for me. On another thread, I mentioned I’ve suffered sexual assault and trauma from a medical procedure, plus I have had numerous surgeries to correct injuries from birthing my kids, and so I need patience, caution, gentleness... .which I don’t get. It’s all about him, his needs, his fantasies... .sigh.

I have tried several times, in various ways, to get him to respect me, and my body, but it never works. He can’t stand the “rejection” of being denied an “all access, unlimited entertainment option, VIP” pass to my body. He says it makes him feel unloved, unattractive, and worthless. I try to validate his feelings, but he refuses to accept my words, only “actions” (you know) tell him how I truly feel (according to him.) He used to be extremely promiscuous, so I have reason to fear he will make good on his threats to take his “needs” elsewhere. He just has absolutely no regard for anyone else’s “needs” but his own. I’ve heard his express extreme, sincere remorse for a lot of things he’s done in his past, but never ever ever has he shown even a glimpse of guilt, shame, or remorse for the way he used women. I really think it’s bc we stop being people to him and become objects, no different than a sofa or a can opener, when he wants sex. I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve felt we were being “intimate” rather than just having sex, and in every instance he seemed... .disturbed? Confused? definitely less aroused. Distant afterwards. I don’t think he enjoys it. This is a huge huge issue, I know. Maybe he’ll never want intimacy, physical intimacy, and I CAN deal with that, but only if the violations stop. That’s the compromise.

[Turkish]

This link should work. 

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=304172

[Radcliff]

Sorry about the broken link.  Turkish got it right.  I'm so sorry to hear about the boundary issues with intimacy.  You deserve to be safe and valued as a person in that area especially.  But am glad to hear that you're able to call it for what it is, and are determined to work on it when you're able to.  In a volatile situation, your plan to practice and get some smaller wins first sounds wise.

That Lundy Bancroft book I recommended above, Should I Stay or Should I Go, says in that the reaction of your partner when you start to try to establish boundaries is telling.  If you're able to do it successfully, that's a positive sign.  If they double down on control, that's not good.  

You can try to be very skillful in how you phase in boundaries, but even if you're a master at it, it's almost certainly going to generate pushback from him.  Have you worked with your T or a DV advocate on a safety plan?  Is that a familiar term?

Putting some boundaries around time to yourself and being able to spend time with friends seems like a good place to start.  That outside support is critical to you staying strong, which, of course, is why it feels threatening to him.  What's the first activity or thing you're going to try to protect?  What's your plan to get started?

RC

[Seashore]

My MOSAIC score was 7. I don’t know what to think about that, but I feel nauseous.