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Author Topic: Is part of the whole "BPD" addiction/dynamic a larger issue with society?  (Read 584 times)
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« on: October 09, 2018, 09:43:12 AM »

A lot of our stories are similar in terms of the 'addiction' the love-bombing/euphoria/intensity of our BPD (and on BPD) relationships and I wonder how much of that is due to our society's views on 'love' these days from movies and song and such we are brought up on. I'll leave out part of my view in terms specifically of female "pwBPD" because I think there are some specific dynamics at play here that aren't related to my larger point here but I'm happy to cover that in a separate post.

I was reflecting as I start dating this new woman how much stuck I/we place on "being in love". The euphoria and butterflies and lust. I like this woman. I don't have any of the aforementioned feelings for her.  She is attractive, stylish, sweet, super nice and we get along great. No BAM! for me. A lof of that I believe as covered in another post is she speaks only a little English and I speak 4 words of her language (one of which is "Cheers!" so in fact 3 words  ) so it is hard to generate that buzz.  The point however is she has every one of the classic qualities one would want in a life-partner; fantastically supportive, respectful, confident, nice, polite, self-reliant, able to give, able to receive, sacrifcing but not self-sacrificing, respects boundaries, sets boundaries. She has many interests and many friends and all of her friends are fantastically nice, welcoming, friendly, supportive of her and of me.  But that "thing" we are taught to believe is the key to love and happiness is not there.

Yet I look at the generation(s) before me and they by and large did not necessarily look for that,  yet so many of their marriages were not only long and strong but exhibited the kind of love we profess to want. A couple anecdotes to clarify that:

  • I'll try to make this one short as can be   When I was teenager I went with my father on location to a film-shoot in San Francisco (we live in NY). At the end of the shoot the director invited us to come cruise on his boat from Marina del Rey. I said "YES!" and my father said "thanks we'll talk about it". On the drive home, being a selfish and clueless 17 year old, I kept asking "Why can't we go?" and he kept coming up with reasons that made no sense and I'd counter with "No, you said you had the week off when you got back you don't need to be at work Monday!". Finally I said "Please just give me ONE good reason we can't go!" and my father slammed the wheel with his palms, turned to me with his eyes misty and yelled 'BECAUSE I MISS YOUR MOTHER!". That was one of the WOW moments in my life. I just said "Ok Dad". Becaue f***.  I'm 17 now so get something about love/lust and I realize this not just My Dad but a Man who Loves a Woman and misses her. He's been married to her for longer than I have been alived and he still MISSES her after 10 days.
  • We had a neighbor in my building whose wife died. We had him up for lunch a few time after and he'd get very quiet in the middle We asked what was wrong (besides the obvious) since it was about the same time when he'd sort of drift off and he said "I called my wife every single day for 45 years at this time to tell her I loved her. Never missed a day"
  • My aunt who was about 20 years older than my dad passed away years back but her husband was telling a story about being at some event with her a table with other couples. He got up to get her hot dogs from the buffet and came back and said 'just like you like it dear, onions and saurkraut, no mustard". The woman near her, much younger said "Wow, he treats you so well you must have just started dating" and she said "Honey I have beem married to this man for 65 years and he has treated me like this every day"

I'm sorry to say I just don't hear anything like this "today". And again I wonder if we are all after the wrong brass-ring here. I mean I think there are other societal issues at play here not the least of which is the changing roles / expectations but in large part I think we've all been fooled by a slieght-of-hand and perhaps missed something important our parents and grandparents knew. Did 'BPD' exist 25,50,100 years ago? Sure, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say people were less susceptible to it because being love-bombed and eurphorically in love was probably less of what people were looking for. I could be utterly romanticizing a by-gone time and era from a few anecdotes I've heard and witnessed but I think there is some element of truth regardless.
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« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2018, 11:36:10 AM »

Somewhat.

In the therapy community, they believe that BPD has roots in childhood. I think we can agree that children who grow up in a loving, balanced family do better in life. Even if the immediate family is a bit messed up, having healthy extended family can help a lot, and a lot of us don't have that now. I always was worried about how my upbringing (NPD mother, passive father) would affect our children, but I now know of course that my pwBPD's upbringing was a concern as well. He also has aspects of PTSD, which is a risk factor for BPD. So we had a lot against us, I'm afraid. Our young adults still live with me, and they're making significant progress. The therapist says they are on track, but I of course fret at times, although I work hard to advise and not control them so that they are owning their recovery. Thus far they are making good choices in life which I'm thankful for.

I've been around some of the types of marriages that you talk about, and I have to say that in each case they were indeed very good at managing conflict and speaking their minds in a healthy way. Some years ago I asked the wife of one couple (in their late 70's) at the time what their secret was, and she said "grace and respect." Neither expected perfection, but were thankful every day for each other. He valued her as an individual and valued her opinions and thoughts even if they were negative, and she did the same towards him. Sometimes they fought, but they always set a time limit and dropped it if they couldn't come to a resolution. As often happens with couples like that, she died of cancer at 89, and he passed away six months later after being completely healthy when she was ill. Friends say that he was heartbroken when she died and immediately became unwell.

Of course in BPD, there are all kinds of imbalances in relationships that make it really tough to work though. That's why marriage counselling when one partner has BPD inevitably fails. You have to deal with the core, individual issues before you deal with the couple issues. I had significant issues with codependency and boundaries that I'm finding my way out of bit-by-bit. My contributions didn't help.

Hard, hard stuff.  
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« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2018, 11:44:45 AM »

reading between the lines a little bit... .

are you asking why you felt this:

Excerpt
The euphoria and butterflies and lust.

with the previous girl, and why, despite this:

Excerpt
fantastically supportive, respectful, confident, nice, polite, self-reliant, able to give, able to receive, sacrifcing but not self-sacrificing, respects boundaries, sets boundaries.

you dont feel it with the new one? why it doesnt generate that buzz?
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« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2018, 12:06:27 PM »

reading between the lines a little bit... .

are you asking why you felt this:

with the previous girl, and why, despite this:

you dont feel it with the new one? why it doesnt generate that buzz?
Oh allow me to clarify the lines

ZERO Euphoria, butterflies or even lust last girl. I got sucked into the eventual (not real) connection which IS part of what I want. I'm more referring to a) a lot of what I read here and b) prior relationships and c) in general what I hope to find or expect indicates I am "in love"

And why despite "fantastically supportive, respectful" etc new girl? Well two points on that I think. The first is my overall point was that lust/euphoria/butterlfies are not necessarily created by by "fantastically supportive, respectful, confident, nice, polite, self-reliant, able to give, able to receive, sacrifcing but not self-sacrificing, respects boundaries, sets boundaries" but are qualities in the relationship anecdotes I related. Point two is that as I may have pointed out we can hardly speak other than general basic English and need to generally revert to texting and text-translation for any thing beyond basic generalities or polite intercourse (by which I don't mean sex behind closed doors of course ha ha). So it is hard to generate energy/connection that way. I'm guessing if we spoke the same language there would be much more of that.I don't even get to joke with her about making "polite intercourse" since "I will go" can be confused as "she will come". Er no jokes on that either please. But you see what I mean.

At dinner for instance the other night she was very animate and talking and laughing alot, mostly regaling them with stories about me/us and everyone else was enjoying the stories very much. I had to wait for her friend to translate. So I don't 'buzz' off/with her that way even the way they did.

Lastly sometimes someone can be super kind and nice and you just don't have "that".

I'm just wondering basically if "that" is all that. This is an interesting relationship litmus test. The last (the one that brought me here) was not a litmus test, not a comparison even of lust vs like, it was just me as I've mentioned spun out of control becaues of my life and making a decicsion that would not have even occured to me prior or now.
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« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2018, 05:56:32 AM »

I think in all ways we became more of an "immediate gratification" culture.

People used to save money to buy a new car.  Now you can just walk into a dealaership and take one home with no money.  Just make payments for 7 years. The same with a home. Only intelligent people used to go to college.  Now everyone goes and takes out loans.

As for relationships it's the same.  Often times the first  speed bump leads to break up and divorce.  Many have the expectation of a life filled with butterflies and happiness daily.  If they don't have that then it must be their partners fault.

And of course "privacy" is now ultra important.  Cell phones, dating apps, Facebook etc.  If you no longer feel the initial stages of "love" then you can press a button and see thousands of other options secretly and instantly.

I think of my first ex wives parents.  They met when she was 13 and he was 21.  They stayed married 60 years until he died. Today she would be told to be independent and go to college.  He would be sleeping with girls off tinder.

I also think something we can't measure is "lost" when we sleep with random strangers for decades , THEN try to find one to marry and expect some long term, loving, faithful, life long marriage.  The wiring in people has been changed to think differently.

So I think BPD is similar to everyone else in those ways, except more extreme.  The first thought of perceived abandonment, or that you are actually not perfect, leads them to end up in bed with someone else.

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« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2018, 07:30:42 AM »

As for relationships it's the same.  Often times the first  speed bump leads to break up and divorce.  Many have the expectation of a life filled with butterflies and happiness daily.  If they don't have that then it must be their partners fault.

For years we were more like caring roommates for various reasons, and then after a suicide attempt, mine decided that we had to have a "perfect" relationship. Of course I couldn't measure up. The least lack of attention was taken wrong. I had other valid responsibilities that he resented. Then I had to deal with constant criticism and be completely into him. A list of my faults and failings in the morning, and then be thrilled in the bedroom that evening. No woman could do that.

So we separated. Every attempt to reconcile was the same. The therapist was being salty, but she said that anyone who keeps a list of their partners faults and failings doesn't deserve to be married. Such lists just lead to despair.
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« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2018, 10:41:49 AM »

Hey, 1stTimer.

It sounds like this new person you're dating has inspired some thinking about what you want in a partner.  I hear you're longing for something more . . . Chemistry,  maybe?  I can relate very much to wanting the whole package, closeness plus chemistry with a loving, attractive partner. 

Would you like to say more about the new person?  It sounds like there's a communication barrier.  Do you feel ready to move on?

Excerpt
I could be utterly romanticizing a by-gone time and era from a few anecdotes I've heard and witnessed

Possibly.  What you've described here are older people who've found successful relationships reflecting back on those relationships.  This is an entirely different perspective than that of a younger person who has yet to find his or her match.  Is there information to you available in these stories that can serve as a guide for your own search?
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« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2018, 01:32:05 PM »

Hey, 1stTimer.

It sounds like this new person you're dating has inspired some thinking about what you want in a partner.  I hear you're longing for something more . . . Chemistry,  maybe?  I can relate very much to wanting the whole package, closeness plus chemistry with a loving, attractive partner.
Hmm interesting take I hadn't looked at it that way (or hadn't thought I had). I was less thinking about wanting more from her/the relationship then realizing just how much I valued the qualities she did have and in a relationship. And wondering aloud if I, like many people, put so much stock in "love" and "butterflies" that we overlook great qualities that lead to great long-term relationships.  

Excerpt
Would you like to say more about the new person?  It sounds like there's a communication barrier.  Do you feel ready to move on?
Well at this point I do but not for the aforementioned reasons. The communication barrier is real, she acknowledges it as well. I'm not sure her frustration is the same as mine; for me it makes it hard to really generate chemistry/intimacy. I can't put my finger on what it lacks for her but I know it upsets her. She is committed to returning to the US fluent so there is no "barrier to communication".  Yet is isn't the slow build of intimacy/chemistry that has me ready to move on; whatever is there is growing yet I really LIKE her; who she is, the way she treats people and herself and me, her values, her nature. Maybe we've all (or maybe I) have missed "liking" as being as important as "loving". I sorta hate to include myself as my prior relationships were all people I really LIKED, one was someone I liked, loved, adored and respected immensly.

Excerpt
Possibly.  What you've described here are older people who've found successful relationships reflecting back on those relationships.  This is an entirely different perspective than that of a younger person who has yet to find his or her match.  Is there information to you available in these stories that can serve as a guide for your own search?
Again I think part of the guide IS what they've found to make those relationships successful. Then again they didn't live in a time where they had FB and Twiiter and Tinder and Instant Messaging and when women were actively in the workforce and out in the world with access to not only what men always had but even more due to both the technology and to being women. Lots of challenges for both sexes now. Maybe people built on what they had more then because they had to. When relationships were more of a necessity than a choice, when choice wasn't almost endless, when replacing someone with minor or major flaws wasn't as (seemingly) easy as swipe right.

I think "the answer" though is people like my Dad didn't miss their wifes of 25 years because of some unattainable love most people won't find but because he spent 25 years loving his wife. Love as verb not a noun.
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« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2018, 05:37:36 PM »

I've had this conversation with friends many times... not only with regard to my former relationship but with society in general. My opinion is that yes, we are focused on the feelings the "wow" of meeting someone and the lust, etc., versus the boringness of commitment, loyalty, and accepting that the other person is not magical. Some things will annoy you. My pastor often says the best marriages are the boring ones... .but you never hear about them because that doesn't make reality TV. More and more I see the wisdom in finding a "boring" relationship. Find someone who is kind, committed, etc., and let the chemistry build. I fell in love quickly for my ex and I loved that feeling... .more than I paid attention to the tantrums and stranger behavior... .I thought I had found "it". But I was completely wrong and it wrecked me for years. I'll take kind, sweet, quiet, fun, over crazy-making and crazy love. That's for sure.
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« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2018, 10:59:12 PM »

When she first broke up with me,  I was kind of relieved.  I sent messages to her two BFFs (one of which she soon broke relationship with forever,  both were high school friends).  She texted me: "why won't you fight for someone you love?"  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post) backing up... .

After our first "real" date,  a simple dinner,  she said,  "I'm not ready for a r/s or boyfriend!"

Me: ? It was a dinner date.  I didn't even try to kiss her.  I wasn't pushing things in my mind (she guilted me into moving in 4 months later).

A day or so later I was at a friend's house, with her far from my mind, when I got a text: " I'm going to see [X] movie.  Do you want to join me?"

My first thought was,  " Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post) I don't like being jerked around." Then I thought,  "maybe I'm not giving love a chance." Despite many   Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)

And I ended up here eventually.  

I didn't trust my gut because I bought into societal FOG rather than trusting in myself.  

But as one of the wise people in my life has said,  "no matter her, at least you got two awesome kids out of it." Yeah, that's the conundrum.  
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« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2018, 10:28:07 AM »

And wondering aloud if I, like many people, put so much stock in "love" and "butterflies" that we overlook great qualities that lead to great long-term relationships.

Yes.  

Butterflies may get a relationship started but they won't keep it going. There is the distinction between "falling in love" and "loving someone," that the two are different. That's been my experience, too.

With my ex, we fell "in love" and then once that (inevitably) ended, there was nothing but darkness and pain. The only thing that kept us together (other than our son) was my desperate and misguided hope that I could recreate the idealization feeling. Even a temporary hit was enough to sustain that hope, even if the darker parts of the relationship were starting to dominate.

I went into my current healthy relationship (non BPD) wary of butterflies, and more cautious overall -- I didn't trust myself, not in the beginning. I didn't want that total merge feeling, where we would lose track of time and feel a bubble around us, as though nothing else mattered except this feeling that could only exist if we were together. I wanted to see if I could have boundaries and still give and receive love. I wanted to be able to say no and have it bring us closer instead of making it feel like a fatal blow to the relationship.

I don't know about the larger issue with society/BPD addiction. I do believe that people are (in general) ignorant about emotions, unless they come from a family where emotions are expressed and processed in healthy and safe ways. A lot of people don't understand emotions, how they work. We often don't have words for them so they run amok, unexamined. It often isn't safe to talk about them, going to therapy can be stigmatizing, we think expressing emotions is weak or effeminate.  

That means we are left to make sense of things in the dark. If you are taught to invalidate emotions, how can your emotions help you make choices that will benefit your longterm health and well-being?

We seem so afraid to feel genuine intimacy. We seem so ignorant about emotional game-playing. We are like little children in adult bodies, so many ways to distract ourselves and blunt our feelings, especially now.

If we are so enamored with rational logical thinking, it's no wonder that "butterflies" would feel so good, because they feel so intense and unusual, versus the deadening feeling of living in our thoughts, pushing emotions down, out of the light.

It is so hard and boring (and sometimes terrifying) to wake up our own emotions. It is so much easier to think someone or something else can wake up our emotions and make us feel alive, and taken to excess that story always seems to end the same way.

I read a quote once that said we would still be living in caves if it weren't for autism. If you think of autism as a spectrum of sensory differences, then you have some humans sensing things that others cannot, and using those intelligences to achieve new and sometimes groundbreaking insights.

It made me wonder if mental illnesses and syndromes can (to some extent) be made worse by massive social invalidation and rejection of differences. What would BPD look like if, socially, we were more genuinely emotionally intelligent and insightful?
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« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2018, 11:42:44 AM »

I went into my current healthy relationship (non BPD) wary of butterflies, and more cautious overall -- I didn't trust myself, not in the beginning. I didn't want that total merge feeling, where we would lose track of time and feel a bubble around us, as though nothing else mattered except this feeling that could only exist if we were together. I wanted to see if I could have boundaries and still give and receive love. I wanted to be able to say no and have it bring us closer instead of making it feel like a fatal blow to the relationship.

This is where I am.

I'm wary of the deep "merging" and all-encompassing erotic energy of the knock-your-socks-off attraction/romantic love. Not that those things aren't beautiful when they happen, but I sure as heck don't want to base my next long term romantic relationship on them.

And I don't really know how to "do" it. In the past, I just fell in love, listened to my heart and jumped into the ring. Mostly things turned out pretty well (although most of the relationships pushed most of my emotional buttons). Some not so much.

I once read that relationships don't exist to make us happy, but to make us more conscious. I can understand that, especially as I also believe that many of us are operating under FOO patterns that lead us toward situations that will force us to grow. But dang if I'm not tired of the repetition compulsion.  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)

That's why I think intimate relationships are one of the best routes to growing, learning and changing as a person. In other words: it's work, even as the rewards can be great.

I also think it's wise to use our heads as well as our hearts when choosing a partner. I'm hoping that I've learned at least that much.

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« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2018, 03:19:22 PM »

We live in a very narcissistic culture. Many people who can't have a happy relationship think their partner should worship them while they heap endless criticism on him/her without regard for his/her feelings. I have noticed that the happy couples speak highly of each other, and when they disagree they make sure to do it in ways that are not destructive to their relationship.
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« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2018, 12:45:12 PM »

We live in a very narcissistic culture. Many people who can't have a happy relationship think their partner should worship them while they heap endless criticism on him/her without regard for his/her feelings. I have noticed that the happy couples speak highly of each other, and when they disagree they make sure to do it in ways that are not destructive to their relationship.
True. And happy couples never air their grievances behind each other's backs. I don't mean not talking with friends about it and how to solve it but I do mean in trashing the other. And not snide put downs in front of other people, the kids, etc. My parents fought but not once did they say anything mean as their goal was not to WIN at all costs but to communicate. Most of us learned that except one sister who goes straight for the kill, not sure how that happened but mostly we all learned that. The argument is fair game, going to hurt to score a point is not.
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« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2018, 07:04:06 PM »

Something that still sticks with me is one of my thoughts... .What feels comfortable isn't always good for you. What feels uncomfortable isn't necessarily bad for you. I realized I had never felt comfortable around "nicer" girls. I talked myself out of pursuing them for absolutely no reason or I was just plain freaked out for no good reason. (That I knew at the time.) When I saw my ex on match, my FOO issues were triggered. I pitied her more than I loved her. She was the Waify type... .similar to my mother... .had a temper too. But I felt for her. Pity isn't love though and loving someone and showing someone kindness doesn't mean you're going to get the same. Sometimes what is comfortable and easy isn't good for you. The ending of the relationship darn near destroyed me but I pushed myself to join meetup and to make friends and attempt to enjoy life. Eventually I realized I would have to pursue the discomfort (for me) of a healthy relationship in order to grow. I had to find a nice, stable woman who I could have a true relationship with.
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« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2018, 06:43:30 AM »

I realized I had never felt comfortable around "nicer" girls.

This was true for me, too ("nicer" men).

It was like they were a curiosity. Something obviously treasured by other people, but not something I myself understood or appreciated.

*Comfortable* meant someone who crashed through boundaries and made things exciting, someone brash.

*Uncomfortable* was someone who had boundaries, who moved slowly and cautiously and respectfully, and treated me nicer than I treated myself.

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« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2018, 01:44:57 PM »

I'm wary of the deep "merging" and all-encompassing erotic energy of the knock-your-socks-off attraction/romantic love. Not that those things aren't beautiful when they happen, but I sure as heck don't want to base my next long term romantic relationship on them.

certainly, movies, music, media, colored my view on these things, in terms of what i equated with love, that instantaneous soul mate quality, that you and this person "get" each other, etc, and once obtained, you tend to want to invest.

what seems so obvious now, but that i never understood at the time, is that those things are not real intimacy or trust, and do not themselves form the foundation of a healthy relationship. all of those things are built slowly, over time.

those things are nice, though. i look at them now as a certain chemistry, which is not inherently bad. my best friend and i met on our first day of school in sixth grade, and never looked back. we did have an instantaneous chemistry that we still have today, its just that our bond, the forging of our friendship, was not built on that first day of school.

so yes, i may find that with a romantic partner(s). i just think that it falls on me to see it for what it is... .and to be self aware about it. looking back, there was a powerful need of mine to feel "understood". we all have that to degrees, its part of chemistry i think, but how much stock do we put in it? are we realistic about it?

This was true for me, too ("nicer" men).

and then theres the question of how selective we are, about whom, and why... .why we click with whom we click (and how), why we reject others. there can be a host of reasons, personal to each of us.

the paradox is that it often has to do (and did with me) with a level of fear of true intimacy (which can pertain to the fears of abandonment and engulfment). its paradoxical because you can simultaneously deeply crave and on some level fear something like intimacy without realizing or understanding it. you can mistake intimacy for other things (like intensity).

i dont think most people can just look at themselves, their view of others, their view of the world, and just intuitively, objectively see this. sometimes it takes a lot of crashing against it, a lot of pain around it, even some level of grief around letting it go, before we can expand our views and gravitate to different, healthier dynamics.
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