I broke up with new girlfriend

[1stTimer]

Well. Interesting update. I broke up with her :|  "Once bitten, twice shy". After all the nice 'stuff' on the Saturday post-concert dinner with the 'she says to tell you she has been working two jobs and did not mean to neglect you and nothing is wrong between you', which I accepted despite the fact she cancelled plans twice to do things with friends, it just happened again.

At the conclusion of Saturday lunch her friend says "She would like to know if you want to see her Wednesday" so I said of course. They drove her home (me not invited) and I subwayed home.  I texted her 'Would you like me to come cook Italian food Wednesday?'.  I've done this 3-4x at her aparmtent complex as they have a gorgeous veranda with BBQs and tables. The last 3x she invited friends which I like. Anyway she said 'yes thanks, I invited a friend!'.  So today, tuesday she texts in the afternoon 'Can we make it Thursday noon my friend is available then?'  Um, no, it is heavy italian food #1 which won't go down well at noon and I have meetings.  Just have lunch with your friend and I'll cook for you at night. No not Wednesday can you do Friday lunch? Lunch, lunch, lunch. Friend, friend, friend. I say no sorry I have meetings during the day and it is heavy dinner food. Well my friend and I are only available for lunch. Ok well enjoy your time with your friend then. Sorry.

But sorry, pattern is clear and I like it not. Especially from a girl who when she slept with me made it clear she only wanted to if this was something real not just casual sex , first man since her husband, doesn't sleep around, will I come stay with her, etc.  So Saturday starts to look like just being shown off to her friends, look my great American Boyfriend who cooks for me and treats me like a lady and speaks 4 words of Chinese say "Nihao!". 3 weeks ago she was so excited about her extra month and being able to spend it with me, I've spent 1 afternoon with her and 11 friends. And she has studiously avoided being in a situation where I come back to her apartment. YES the sex is good for her so that is not the problem. I gave her the chance to come clean and tell me if there was any issue she said no, her friends bent over backwards ALL day telling me how great she thought I was, bla bla. But at the end of the day like any relationship, actions matter not words. Patterns matter. And it clear the pattern now is she believes she can make plans and unilaterally without consulting change them if something better comes along and that is just NOT respectful, however politely or demurely you say it. Her friend said 'she says you are so nice and don't get mad at her when she is late or cancels'. Which to me means not "Oh I can cancel on him" but "Oh this is a man to NOT cancel on". How can people not get it? When someone treats you with respect it is not open season to disrespect them it is an indication to treat them with at least the same respect back and earn it. Isn't that like ABC?

This is not me being 'reactive' by the way, there is nothing to notice, it is not 'triggering' anything from past relationships or insecurities, and I am not hurt or angry or spinning out of control. I don't like being treated casually or with disrespect and especially by someone who has made it clear they don't want to be treated that way before we even start. If she were staying around perhaps there would be something left to talk about but she is here for 3 more weeks. It would take that long to translate back and forth and is not worth it to me. I had this gorgeous Russian Dancer make it clear she'd love to hear from me and I passed on doing so so far.  I believe I shall reach out to her and continue on my quest to reconnect

[Skip]

This is not me being 'reactive' by the way, there is nothing to notice, it is not 'triggering' anything from past relationships or insecurities, and I am not hurt or angry or spinning out of control. I don't like being treated casually or with disrespect and especially by someone who has made it clear ... . 

OK.

How long have you been dating her? How many times was it the two of you and intimate? Did  she invite you to move to China or was that a flirt?

[1stTimer]

OK.

How long have you been dating her? How many times was it the two of you and intimate? Did  she invite you to move to China or was that a flirt?

"Dating" her for say... .6 weeks-8 weeks. As in from first tentative walk in park etc. Several times. 5-6? She did not invite me to move to China. She was pretty persistent/insistent on my flying to China even to the point of offering to pay for my expenses to stay with her. She was pretty clear I was the first man she was intimate with since her divorce a year ago (despite suitors). Her friends are pretty clear she wants to know if we are serious or not.

I'm not even so worried about our status/plans. I was clear I liked her, didn't date multiple women and wanted to get to know her and liked her but I didn't pressure her and wasn't pressured. I'm more worried/upset/unhappy that, regardless if this is just a fling whilst she is here or something we may both want to explore when she returns (her friends already passed on an invite during dinner by her to invite me in January when she flies in to a big event), that I don't like being treated like that. I do not like casual FWB, girlfriends, fiances, ex-gfs, friends or anyone for that matter who make plans, then at last minute say 'oh I'm not doing that I'm doing something else we can do that tomorrow'. Disrepectful. Not a good sign. I don't care if we kissed once and made it like bunnies every day of the summer.

I asked her first time she did it two-three weeks back if there was an issue between us or if she wanted space to let me know since she had done it 2 times in a row AND cancelled our upcoming dinner with friends. She replied back no no no there is not! When we had dinner Saturday she had her friends repeat to me she did not mean to neglect me for 2+ weeks she was working two jobs and how crazy she was about me. Doesn't change the fact she cancelled twice then to be with friends. But I accepted it at face value and stepped in and offered to cook dinner for her Wedneday, she accepted, and did it again. Last minute and clearly whatever happend would be lunch not dinner.

I sent her a 'ok I have had it' and explained how I felt, told her I understood it was hard, and that I really enjoyed having met her and spending time with her and thought she was lovely person and lady and wished her a remaining good time, flight and best back home. I have too much going on to get sucked into a situation like this compounded by language and time constraints. I did get back:

"Sorry, please don't be angry! I will not cancel things books in the future! I'm really sorry! [she uses a lot of ! all the time] I'm really glad to know you. I think you are a remarkable man! You are a wonderful gentleman! I'm sorry again"

So... .not sure. I set my boundaries to be sure. What it means beyond that who knows. She has 3 1/2 weeks left here.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi 1stT-

I am standing right next to you on this one.  Her behavior is pretty disrespectful of your time commitments during your work day AND of your feelings.  Repeatedly canceling plans and pushing them out Can feel dismissive - it would to me.  

I like that you’re not labeling her BPD... .anyone from anywhere can be disrespectful.  And I do NOT believe you’re overreacting.

The type of food you’d be cooking is irrelevant.  If she disregards other people, she disregards other people.  It likely wouldn’t matter if she lived in the US.  Wrong girl.

Understanding how to treat someone with respect should run through a person’s veins... .should be in their bones.  Not sure you can teach that to an adult.  You deserve that and you’ll find it!  

How will your contact with her end?  Will you allow this to quietly slip away?  You’re allowed to disengage without ANY drama, you know... .a simple note via text will do just fine.  Keep it light for your sake.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes  

[1stTimer]

Hi 1stT-

I am standing right next to you on this one.  Her behavior is pretty disrespectful of your time commitments during your work day AND of your feelings.  Repeatedly canceling plans and pushing them out Can feel dismissive - it would to me.  

Hi Gem. I knew you'd be by my side  (agree or not). Yup. Here is the thing; her friend said on Saturday 'she says you are so good to her, you don't yell at her or make her feel bad ever even if she is late etc'. I get this a lot; people thing because I am nice I am a pushover. Not. Like I said I get she is here for a limited time, lots of friends. A simple 'Hey I KNOW we had plans today but Yue Yue got Unlimited Spa Tickets for us, do you mind doing it tomorrow?' Not a problem.

I like that you’re not labeling her BPD... .anyone from anywhere can be disrespectful.  And I do NOT believe you’re overreacting.

Nope, don't think she is even close. I think she is quite centered and has a ton of other great and very much non BPD qualities. Maybe she took 'real gentleman' to mean she had room to not give me the respect she would to the guys who DO yell at her. Again: wrong. It is sort of strange as her and her friends are the epitome of manners and respect.

The type of food you’d be cooking is irrelevant.  If she disregards other people, she disregards other people.  It likely wouldn’t matter if she lived in the US.  Wrong girl.

Well something definitely up. To me the 'lunch' thing more than anything. That is a 'no not at my place at night'. Again, weird because, er, she really liked the night :| 

How will your contact with her end?  Will you allow this to quietly slip away?  You’re allowed to disengage without ANY drama, you know... .a simple note via text will do just fine.  Keep it light for your sake.

I sent her a note telling her how I felt and did not like to be disrespected. Mentioned she told me she did not want to be 'casual' or treated like that and she did that to me. I basically said look I really am glad I met and "I am going to wish you the best of times in your remaining time here, and a safe flight and best success in your life back home. It was very good knowing you I am glad I said hi at ? and glad we spent some time together."

Got back immediately

"Sorry, please don't be angry! I will not cancel things books in the future! I'm really sorry! I'm really glad to know you. I think you are a remarkable man! You are a wonderful gentleman! I'm sorry again"

It is really strange as I said since she is quite gracious, polite, respectful and appreciative of how I treat her and does so in return. She reciprocates with both gestures and even takes me out to dinner and knows and doesn't care I am in financial straits. Her and her friends could hardly have been more gracious and solicitous of me at the concert and the entire dinner was her regaling them in Chinese about the things we do or I did, showing them pictures of my dinners, telling them about my company and how hard I work and how well I treat her and her friend translating all of this and telling me even though we speak different langauges he knows many chinese-american couples who make it work. The one guy again told me how proud she was of my meeting and how she went to St. Patricks to pray for me an didn't eat for two days.  This other behavior is so dichotomic <wow a real word! it is hard to interpret.

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____ Did you break up with her because you have evaluated her and her situation as a partner and you have decided that this is not a good relationship for you?

____ Did you break up with her because you were triggered and this was your emotional response. Good or bad, it is how you feel today?

____ Did you break up with her to make a point - I will not stand for this - do not do it again?

[1stTimer]

Did you break up with her because you have evaluated her and her situation as a partner and you have decided that this is not a good relationship for you?

I was already on the fence on this. We don't speak the same language, literally. She has a 10 year Visa with 6 month limits, the latest of which is running out. I'm still 'evaluating' in our limited time if there is a reason to make this a possible long distance relationship or not. As mentioned in other threads, connecting is a slow process as we can't speak directly or deeply. But w/o this incident I'd still be continuing on seeing and and see where we are when she leaves.

____ Did you break up with her because you were triggered and this was your emotional response. Good or bad, it is how you feel today?

I didn't "trigger" if you mean it sparked some connection or emotional reaction I didn't have control of. I don't like being disrespected or treated as if I am not important or a second-thought. That isn't a trigger. It is how I don't like to be treated. I disengaged the first time i reacted to it 2-3 weeks back because it was not a pattern so I had no right to make assumptions and let it play out. BTW I was open the first time and asked her if the cancellations/distance were an issue, if she had an issue, if she wanted space, second thoughts, etc. She said no emphatically and had her friends reiterate it. It played out right back to that same treatment though. Pattern. Either she is/was a) lying or b) she just treats people or at least me like this. So I had had a rational response. I don't want someone who lies t ome or treats me like that.

____ Did you break up with her to make a point - I will not stand for this - do not do it again?

It was a line in the sand to be sure. And to be sure I could have just made it that clear and not made it a 'good bye'. Yet adding it into 3 1/2 weeks and language it seeemed like the smartest thing to do. That adds this to the language and distance and time. I'm dealing with hopefully tying opportunities together for my business that are now do or die. Does adding this into that help?

Not sure really what to do with her reply.

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Not sure really what to do with her reply.

No response is needed... .you said it all. Your reason, your decision, your wishes for her to have nice life. If you have any of her property, mail it back.

If #1 is true, you played your card. A bit harsh, but done. The most respectful thing to do is to walk away.

[1stTimer]

No response is needed... .you said it all. Your reason, your decision, your wishes for her to have nice life. If you have any of her property, mail it back.

If #1 is true, you played your card. A bit harsh, but done. The most respectful thing to do is to walk away.

#1 is partially true as is #3. I don't think I was harsh. I backed off harsh last time and gave her a chance to modify where we were or she is, no hard feelings either way. I perhaps could have not done the goodbye part thist time and just done the "I don't like/don't do" part. I mean it was a two hour dinner pretty much dedicated to how much she likes me and how much I do for her and how great I am to her and how great I am and this chinese group of people nodding and smiling at me and saying 'ahhh' or 'awww' or another guy telling me all the great things she said. I don't like when actions don't seem to match words (at all) and I'm trying or was trying to account for cultural differences, miscommunications and having 4 weeks left on a 6 month Visa as well. Still in all don't like the 'I'll just cancel on 1sttimer (yes, it is my real name!) he's nice and never gets mad at me'. The 'upset' part is other than that she has almost all the checkboxes about what I like in a lady and I was hoping we might have time to see if there was something worth exploring even if she leaves but that is impossible to do like this.

Whichever way it crumbles or does not I am ok with it, as mentioned to OT she is not floatsam she's the pretty girl on the beach. I have sand underfoot and an island to explore/conquer  with or without her.

[Skip]

#1 is partially true as is #3.

Breaking up as a means to make a point damages the fabric of any relationship - you and I have talked about that before. It fall in the category of emotional abuse. I'm using the term lightly - certainly its not the same as hitting someone - but at the same time, it leaves a scar on a relationship for years.

I don't think I was harsh.

Would you say that the best way to exit a relationship with someone you respect would be to meet face to face, explain/no accusations briefly, listen (let the person be heard), and say goodbye (and mean it)? If so, would a text expressing frustration over behavioral deemed unacceptable and saying good-bye for cause (because of the behavior), be a little difficult for her.

I mean it was a two hour dinner pretty much dedicated to how much she likes me and how much I do for her and how great I am to her and how great I am... .

Did she say this? Was the dinner a one-on-one celebration of you?

Whichever way it crumbles or does not I am ok with it, as mentioned to OT she is not floatsam she's the pretty girl on the beach. I have sand underfoot and an island to explore/conquer  with or without her.

So its not really a break up - its more of a moving to "limbo" and to see if she "steps up".

1stTimer, I don't know if you can see the parallel (on your side) to the last relationship. You want her to be more attentive, and you broke up with her (and told her she was not meeting your expectation) and you expect that that will make her more responsive to you. The grand gesture and now the grand dinner.

Question. Was this a time to:

1. Notice it: The critic churns out its judgments, and if we are operating on automatic-pilot, we swallow them, hook, line and sinker. However in mindfulness mode, we are able to step back and notice our thoughts; to see that they are words or sounds in our heads. This immediately gives us a little bit of separation from those thoughts.

2. Name it: We can increase defusion from the critic by naming it. We might say to ourselves: ‘Aha! The inner critic is at it again’, or ‘Aha! There’s the Not Good Enough story’. Or we might silently label these thought processes with a single word, such as ‘Judging’, ‘Criticising’, or ‘Comparing’. We can even give it a nickname: ‘There goes Black Bob again’, or ‘Aha! Here’s Captain Critical’.

3. Neutralize it: We can increase the degree of defusion still further by taking those critical thoughts and putting them into a new context where they are ‘neutral’—nothing more or less than words and sounds, rather than messages loaded with personal relevance.

I'm just asking you about you - not about her. If you're done for any reason, that is certainly your prerogative and fair.

[1stTimer]

Breaking up as a means to make a point damages the fabric of any relationship - you and I have talked about that before. It fall in the category of emotional abuse. I'm using the term lightly - certainly its not the same as hitting someone - but at the same time, it leaves a scar on a relationship for years.

Hmm I don't recall breaking up with anyone before this to make a point certainly not the pwBPD I came here about. And I did not do that this time. Do I have regret that I ended it sure and was part of it to say 'don't treat me like this'? sure. But I'd already said that the first time (nicely).

Would you say that the best way to exit a relationship with someone you respect would be to meet face to face, explain/no accusations briefly, listen (let the person be heard), and say goodbye (and mean it)? If so, would a text expressing frustration over behavioral deemed unacceptable and saying good-bye for cause (because of the behavior), be a little difficult for her.

Sure. If it was a long term or deep relationship. The real point is we haven't had the time to develop that and the endless cancellations pretty much trashed almost a month. I suppose I could have said let's meet and explained it but honestly between the texting last time, my giving her a chance to back-up/off, the dinner on Sunday and then the immediate replay of it didn't make me want to sit and explain. Convert dinner to lunch (any lunch, any day, just not dinner) and because the friend ("he" by the way) she decided to invite to the dinner I was cooking for her could not make the dinner, only lunch the next day AND the only time "they" had free was lunch. Do I owe her that face to face really?

Did she say this? Was the dinner a one-on-one celebration of you?

No. It was a dinner with about 6 of her friends, 3 couples and us. She spent the dinner essentially holding court, very animated discussing me, us, showing pics of things we did, telling anecdotes, etc.

So its not really a break up - its more of a moving to "limbo" and to see if she "steps up".

No, it if it were 'see if she steps up' I would have said I don't like this. As mentioned, the fact that we are now losing most of this week (as apparantly the only time her and this "friend" have to spare me is Thursday or Friday lunch) which leaves less than 3 weeks doesn't really make mending fences make any sense. When? Take one of the lunch slots with her friend? Schedule next week? For what? We didn't get to that spot yet. Perhaps with some quality time over the last 3 weeks, the 3 weeks she said she was so happy to have gained to spend with me. But it didn't happen.

1stTimer, I don't know if you can see the parallel (on your side) to the last relationship. You want her to be more attentive, and you broke up with her (and told her she was not meeting your expectation) and you expect that that will make her more responsive to you. The grand gesture and now the grand dinner.

No parallel. I didn't want pwBPD to be more attentive. I didn't break up with her. I didn't tell hre she wasn't meeting my expectations.

This girl; I didn't want her to be more attentive. I wanted her to not cancel plans on me after telling me she wanted to be with me.  I asked her why she did so and if there was anything wrong that we need to discuss she said no. She did it again and in a pretty ___ty way if I might add. Not sure where the Grand Dinner comes from there was none. I offered to cook for her which is what I've done before. She accepted. Then backed out again and tried to make it a lunch. I wasn't trying to get her to be more attentive with any grand gesture or to be more responsive to me through the dinner OR through the break-up. When someone provides you with enough clues to how important you really are it is time to listen. I did. I broke up with her. She didn't deserve a face to face. She gets what she did. She isn't dumb just because she doesn't speak English. She told her friend how much she likes me because I don't yell at her or make her feel bad when she is "late" (or presumably keep a date).

I expressed some regret for making this a break-up and I have regret. I liked her. She had great qualities. I am not trying to make any grand anything to manipulate her into the behavior I want.

I'm just asking you about you - not about her. If you're done for any reason, that is certainly your prerogative and fair.

It is about me. I noticed the first time I didn't give her the beneft of the doubt and de-escalated my inner dialogue to see what ACTUALLY was going on. And despite all the nice words, the same thing went on and is going on. Disrespect? Lack of prioritization? Being taken for granted? Whatever you want to call it that is what it is.  When we had our last nice dinner at her building complex, great time yet she sent me home in an Uber. The next time I was going to cook she took me out instead and said "you go your home I go my home". The next day she unilaterally cancelled without asking/excusing since she had plans with a friend and said we'll do it tomorrow. Tomorrow she said she had to stay in and write emails enjoy. The next day she turned down a beautiful park event. Two days later she claimed a cold and cancelled a BIG dinner 4 DAYS later that was originally meant to be her going away dinner that I wsa cooking, a dish that takes 2-3 days, and for her friends because of her cold. Then came the Symphony/Lunch where I was put on a pedestal. Then 2 days later she pulled the not tomorrow dinner sorry let's do noon because me and my friend can only make noon. Only a fool would not see something is up. I do not believe she deserved in-person and honestly it would have been fruitless. we would have sat there TEXTING each other since she can't speak any of this. The only similarity to pwBPD is that they both asked for more than they were willing to give and expected that somehow it would be ok/enough.

[1stTimer]

I will point out as well in terms of any similarity to my last and aberrant relationship; this time I noticed behavior and instead of ignoring it kept an eye on it. I managed to not react/escalate the first time and said something when it first happened.  I kept my eyes open and ended it when it happened again. Versus last time being in such a bad spot I kept ignoring and excusing behavior simply to not going back to being "alone".

I'll point out too; if she had simply said 'hey can we move it to Thursday dinner' it would not have been an issue.  But she was, again, engineering it so we would not be alone, at night, at her building. And she was making being together, which we have not been for weeks, contingent upon the schedule of someone else's schedule (some person I don't even know) and asking me to pick a lunchtime that worked for THEM since all THEY had available was lunch. I gave her the opportunity last time to nicely say 'yeah I don't think we should date anymore' or whatever her issue is ("I'm scared of getting close to you and leaving"). She said NOTHING is wrong and went out of her way to have her friends express the same to me. I do not like when things don't add up because the resultant sum is never a good one.

[Skip]

I think you made progress last week when you "managed" what you called "the wave" [of emotion that drives you to shut down/act harshly]. We call it Wisemind (1. Recognize it 2. Name it  3. Manage it.).

You were proud of this. You should be.

So one day ago, this was a classy, healthy women, who thought highly of you. She was headed back to China in three weeks. At best, you would have a 7,000 mile long distance relationship. She doesn't speak English, so communication would be hard - even with translation software, verb conjugation is off so you each don't know if the other is saying "coming or going". Best case, you have a nice companionship for 20-30 days and she is gone. But it would have been a warm experience and a pleasant good bye.  

Today, wave comes in and you react, drop a bomb, end the relationship on a down note... .you both can file it away as "why did I ever get involved with that person".

In both situations, things end in 20 days.

My point (and question) to you is who do YOU want to be? That coiled spring that if touched the wrong way goes off, or the guy that is in Wisemind. 1. Recognize it 2. Name it  3. Manage it.

You wanted more from her. You lost your patience and now there is nothing.  You wanted more from the last person. You lost your patience and now there is nothing.

The first girl might be all wrong for you. And the situation with the second girl might not have any future because or logistics and language... .but in both cases you played a card that hurt them and hurt you.

You can learn from this for the next time.

Relationships take a lot of patience and nurturing - especially if you are male.  In the best of cases, there are episodes that test our metal. In my current relationship (which is very good), I struggled in the beginning with the fact that she had every day booked (family, friends, work, working out, church, volunteer, pet sitting). I needed to book a date 2 weeks in advance. We were on different (but reasonable) pages. I played it cool. I played the long game. We see each other 6 days a week now and she does most of the asking.

Remember, you not only have a physical and language difference - there is a cultural difference. I lived in Tokyo for a year and had a girlfriend there. I also dated a Korean women for a while. They do things differently - they have different expectations of a man.

I talked to a friend of mine last week. He has been married to a eastern European physician for 15 years. He told me the story of asking her to marry him. She said no, immediately. He went home dejected. She called her friends and went shopping for a wedding dress. In her culture, men are expected to ask 2-3 times.

I'm sorry this went bad. She sounds like she has good friends and those are relationships that will endure. She is nurturing those. It sounds like she didn't want to have a FWB relationship - but something more on many levels - she was bringing you into her circle of family and friends.

... .And who knows, my close friend (female) married a guy she met in Norway in February (he speaks only basic English). She is a pillar of a women, good looking, good character. He will spend part of the year in the arctic circle and part of the year in her suburban town as her husband.

If the language wasn't a barrier, you could talk through the sexual issue. But it is barrier and it is not a conversation she necessary play well with friends translating.

I wish you peace and growth in this experience. 

[1stTimer]

Today, wave comes in and you react, drop a bomb, end the relationship on a down note... .you both can file it away as "why did I ever get involved with that person".

No. Today someone repeated disrespectful behavior I'd already called her on once and kindly given her a chance to explain if there was some issue we needed to discuss. She did it again. I broke up.

I never said "why did I get involved". I know why I did. I liked her. I like her. She never said that. Right now her last words to me were "You are an remarkable man. You are an extraordinary gentleman". And apologized, for the third time in one paragraph. Not the words of someone who thinks "why did I ever get involved"

You wanted more from her. You lost your patience and now there is nothing.  You wanted more from the last person. You lost your patience and now there is nothing.

I think you have me 'last person' confused with someone else's last person. I didn't want more from her. She pushed relentlessly from more from me, laid out a series of hurdles for me to prove I'd give them to her, and then discarded me the moment I did. I didn't lose patience.

This girl: I didn't want "more". I wanted to not have my time and energy and emotion treated with disrespect. She did.  Now I have "nothing". Because Skip, and here is the important part/lesson, last time I didn't walk away from "nothing" because I was hanging on for dear life just to have something. This time I decided, rationally, that i did not want "something" if I was not being treated right.

The first girl might be all wrong for you. And the situation with the second girl might not have any future because or logistics and language... .but in both cases you played a card that hurt them and hurt you.

Gods man. I didn't play a card that hurt first girl. She pulled some insane week of Prove You Want to Be My Boyfriend, future bombed me the day I did and the next day withdrew it all and discarded me.

Second girl.  Hurt ME, then hurt ME again. I said I don't like that the first time, is something wrong. She said no. She did it again. I said goodbye.

You can learn from this for the next time.

I learned from it the first time; pay attention when someone treats you wrong w/o over-reacting. Speak your mind, set your boundary. If they do it again end it.

This is not "cultural". American, Asian, Eastern European, Orthodox Jew, Muslim. When you blithley cancel plans with someone without explanation with 'we'll do that tomorrow instead I'm going to Queens today" it is disrespecting them. When you do it multiple times it is at best a pattern and at worst sending a message. Whether you say it in English or say "mir veln ton az morgn anshtot ikh bin gegangen tsu kvins haynt" or "明天我们会这样做，而今天我要去皇后区" or "
Vi skal gjøre det i morgen, i stedet skal jeg til Queens i dag"

She asked her friend to tell me she wanted to see my Wednesday, I asked to cook her dinner, she said yes. Then she made it about someone else and contingent on their schedule without regard to the fact I'd made plans with HER, because SHE asked and took time and money and effort to prepare for it.

If the language wasn't a barrier, you could talk through the sexual issue. But it is barrier and it is not a conversation she necessary play well with friends translating.

To my knowledge there is none as I am (supposedly) the first man in a year she liked well enough to have sex with and if my eyes and ears and her feedback are any clue LOVED it. And loved having me sleep over. But yeah we can't talk about why this girl who loved sex with me and whose friends uniformly tell me how amazing I treat her, how I take care of her, how good I am to her, how handsome she thinks I am, whose muscles she loves, who she thinks is so smart and so remarkable and whose food she loves to eat and whom she has inivted to stay with her in China at her expense is suddenly avoiding me. Thus I asked her very nicely the first time if somethibg was wrong, did she want to talk and she insisted nothing. It is incumbent upon her then to NOT do that again, or talk to me, or take the opportunity with her friend translating to sat SOMETHING or use the damn WeChat Translate to say something.

Since she did none of those things, and since her friend said how nice I am for not getting mad at her when she is late or cancels, I can only assume that a) she thinks that means it is ok to be late and cancel and b) she is afraid or reluctant to 'be' with me. If I had to guess I'd guess it was for the same reasons I am; you end up falling for someone who will be half-way around the world in 1 month.

I wish you peace and growth in this experience.  

I appreciate the thought Skip yet I did bring any "growth" from last time and here TO it; again I treated her fabulously well as every one of her friends and she said repeatedly. I didn't let mt trigger get the best of me the first episode with her, communicated clearly and listened, and when the behavior repeated I, unlike last time, walked away with a very nice and closure filled communication.  I'll remind you that even with the last girl pulled the hideous come-hither-discard on me my follow-ups with her were full of compassion. My only "mistake" was the Grand Gesture and that was only a mistake because, as Gem pointed out from my earliest draft, that should have been saved for a woman I actually felt like that about who was actually special.

[/quote]

[once removed]

i think that growth means to be open to the idea that ones facts and perception arent necessarily reality, or at least the full picture. i dont understand the need to argue, defend, and cling to your version of events in the face of any contrary perspective.

you kinda blew up on this girl. you blew up on the last girl - you know this, you felt badly about it for quite a while and wanted to rectify it. but its as if seeing other points of view on all of this that challenge yours is very threatening. why?

[Skip]

Hmm I don't recall...
No.
No, it if it were…
No parallel.
I will point out.
I'll point out too...
No.
I never said…
I think you have me 'last person' confused…
Gods man. I didn't play a card…
I appreciate the thought Skip yet…

Got it.  

[1stTimer]

i think that growth means to be open to the idea that ones facts and perception arent necessarily reality, or at least the full picture. i dont understand the need to argue, defend, and cling to your version of events in the face of any contrary perspective.

you kinda blew up on this girl. you blew up on the last girl - you know this, you felt badly about it for quite a while and wanted to rectify it. but its as if seeing other points of view on all of this that challenge yours is very threatening. why?

I blew up on the last girl and she deserved it. In fact if I recall correctly when I first posted on the first girl, it was you who said my reaction was totally understandable. I felt bad about it when I started beating myself up, undeservedly. Even if it were out of line then it was both understandable and decidedly not what went wrong with the relationship.

I did not blow up on this girl. I sent her a very nice and very respectful email, explaining my hurt at being cancelled on again the way she did and breaking it off with her with the nicest words and terms and closure I could muster. That isn't "blowing up". What she did this week was crappy and indicative of her not being in a spot that makes any sense to continue with.

When I get perspective that seems to me to merit consideration I consider it. It is one reason I went so inanely in the opposite direction with pwBPD.

The only thing I could have done different with this girl is ask, again, is something wrong because you did it again. I'd already done this once, she said no, she made a point of having her friends reiterate it to me in English, then did it even worse on a day SHE asked to see me. So how does my respectful and caring text end it constitute "blowing up on her"?

I in fact just got another apology text.

[1stTimer]

Got it.  

Just curious on the reply; Can I NOT appreciate someone's feedback and/or the time they took to give it if I don't agree with it? I do appreciate the effort and thought and insight.

[once removed]

it was you who said my reaction was totally understandable.

a lot of things are understandable 1stTimer, and anyone with a decent sense of empathy can put themselves in your shoes, and anyone with a decent sense of validation can tell you that they would have been frustrated too. please dont mistake that to mean i thought it was the "right" or mature thing to do, or that i didnt see more to the matter, from your side, from hers, and from 30000 feet up. thats a critical skill if we want to understand our experiences, and what we can take/do/use going forward.

When I get perspective that seems to me to merit consideration I consider it.

i see. with that in mind, how can we best support you?

[1stTimer]

a lot of things are understandable 1stTimer, and anyone with a decent sense of empathy can put themselves in your shoes, and anyone with a decent sense of validation can tell you that they would have been frustrated too. please dont mistake that to mean i thought it was the "right" or mature thing to do, or that i didnt see more to the matter, from your side, from hers, and from 30000 feet up. thats a critical skill if we want to understand our experiences, and what we can take/do/use going forward.

i see. with that in mind, how can we best support you?

Thanks OR. It must be something about the tone of my replies that makes it seem as if I feel I am not being supported. I just replied similarly to Skip; I can appreciate feedback, try to see if it fits or make sense and take what does and reject or reply to the parts I don't. Just because I don't agree doesn't mean a) I haven't considered the feedback or b) don't appreciate it. As I have said to Skip, I deeply appreciate the time and caring and feedback. I don't agree with some/much of it and especially as related to pwBPD. I did take in a LOT early on and try to see from 30000 feet but it doesn't ultimately change my view of what happened and I believe I took some very good lessons from it.

I asked not rhetorically what else would have made sense with this girl and how it could be construed as "blowing up" (FYI Chance to do it all over I'd blow up on pwBPD again she deserved what I said and more and did NOT deserved GG)?

Current and I seem to be in some dialogue now, she is saying she knows she was wrong but the other people were important business people. Not sure how that relates to us not having dinner even though they could not make it however.  I'm trying now to get some actual clarity on where she is and what has been going on. I told her what is confusing me and upsetting me and asking where she is and why or if she (apparently) has backed off her whole "we are a couple thing". I made it clear I get that language and her leaving is hard on both of us and I also apologized IF anything about my first text seemed abrupt. Maybe this is where I should have started but honestly if she spoke more than basic English I might have. But we seem to be in it now so... .

[Skip]

Breaking up is not a way to be heard. It will not serve you well.

1. Recognize it
2. Name it 
3. Manage it

[1stTimer]

Breaking up is not a way to be heard. It will not serve you well.

1. Recognize it
2. Name it 
3. Manage it

It is good advice. I can only repeat however that a) I did not break up with pwBPD, not to be heard or otherwise, She did, the day after I capitulated with The Big Ask b) I did not break up with this girl with the intent of being heard. I did so because it made sense to me given the situation. It was a miscalculation to be sure but it was not a manipulation.

Not saying this to be contrarian, just to have on record for my multiple future relationships, break-ups, marriages and divorces we discuss in the coming years :|

[1stTimer]

Ok so, er, based on our latest communication perhaps I could have given more weight to the language/culture issues and to who I knew her to be. Perhaps, In any event moving past the dinner, her issue is not me or money (I was very clear with her no money unless this works out). It is language. She is very committed to being fluent in English by the time she returns so we can speak fluently to one another and invites me to stay in Chengdu as long as I want.

Maybe on reflection, since she was not pwBPD (who as I said I have concluded deserved everything she got except my nice letters and GG and whom I treated stellarly), and since she had all the qualities of grace and respect I like and since she did invite me into her inner circle and they all did basically welcome me and confirm how she felt, and since translators cant make up for tense or pronouns I could have in this case have dropped the 'I was non-reactive once and set boundaries it happened again bye' and taken the opportunity to be firmer and clearer about what was concerning or upsetting me and firmer about forcing some discussion about it.

Man these triggers; catalog one and another peps up to take its place!

[once removed]

so now that youve been heard and she was attentive, do you see how your perspective has totally shifted?

wouldnt it be better to pick a path, work it even when its hard, trust some of the challenging/perspective offered in the process so youre not fighting yourself... .even when its hard?

if she cancels again, what are you going to do?

[1stTimer]

so now that youve been heard and she was attentive, do you see how your perspective has totally shifted?

wouldnt it be better to pick a path, work it even when its hard, trust some of the challenging/perspective offered in the process so youre not fighting yourself... .even when its hard?

if she cancels again, what are you going to do?

Sure I hear that but, ad the risk if seeming to fight a perspective: It isn't the perspective that I could have handled it differently or even less reactively I push back against. It is specifically against narratives against what happened with pwBPD (I wanted more, broke up with her to get it, got nothing) that I push back against. Not how I handled things but WHAT happened and WHAT I did or didn't do. Was lashing out at her right or wrong? Could I have handled that differently? Sure. Did I drop a bomb on her to get more attention and end up losing her? Not even close. It thus isn't perspectives but facts/narratives I push back on, even if it get the discussion around the right event of series of events.

I can see where I took some of the "lessons" from the last too literally and applied them wrong here (pay attention to your instincts, set boundaries, don't get in relationship for wrong reason, etc).

But I believe you are implying that since I "got what I want" now I have changed my perspective, like I'm gregariously giving back a toy since I got the one I wanted. And I don't see that as being what happened. What she communicated to me and how made me realize I'd handled this wrong, even when her first reply was basically "I still want to be good friends".

I'll repeat I do not regret anything about the way I handled pwBPD except for sending her a nice letter at all, GG or not. In retrospect I wish I had calmly laughed or smiled and walked out on her and never given her the satisfaction or validation I did. She deserved none of it.

THIS woman did. And likely not having overshot my lesson from last time I'd have seen I was misapplying what I learned to the wrong person. And the whole (to me) lesson from last time was paying attention to what my instincts told me about someone and clearly my instincts about this woman were that she was good and gracious and deserved to be given the respect and benefit oft the doubt and communication she deserved.

I don't believe she will cancel again, if she does I'll speak about it calmly and based on what we discussed and remind myself of who she is before I make assumptions or shut her down.

[Skip]

Sure I hear that but... .
But I believe you are implying that... .
I'll repeat I do not regret anything about the way I handled... .

OK. OK.  We will stop.  We will agree with your perspectives.

It sounds like things are back on track with your new friend. You did well.

Are you going to have that dinner with her now?

[tin]

Very interesting! Sounds like a whirlwind- she's only around for a month or two! And you need translators! It seems exciting and surreal. It's certainly interesting when people have traveled a lot, have a lot of nice friends, and have a lot of financial security. In my experience (my ex) it hasn't meant that those same people are not manipulating their nice friends, or are trustworthy. Honestly it felt like his parents being wealthy made him somewhat entitled and lazy in ways I didn't appreciate and ways his personal income didn't reflect. I was much more of a saver and he was more of a spender, and somehow he felt entitled to my savings. Sigh. It must be hard to gauge with such little time together and not being able to communicate directly. It sounds like you admire her a lot and are enjoying the positive affirmations she's able to share with you! I would certainly find visiting another country with someone else paying to be an enticing offer, but I would also be very wary about finding myself indebted to anyone- especially if it was someone not in my immediate family. I would be wondering what would happen if things did sour in the relationship- honestly whenever I've traveled together with friends it can be challenging to make decisions together and to be sharing so many intense experiences together and sometimes gets awkward even over the course of a week. Not sure if that's me being opinionated and stubborn (thanks, anxiety) or a normal thing. I can't imagine travelling with someone I've only known a short time, though I suppose it's worked fine for me in professional settings before.

Do you find you are able to maintain your business and work and exercise and personal goals in this new relationship? It sounds like you both appreciate each other and want to support and help each other which is nice. Maybe if things work out you'll learn more mandarin and she'll learn more English. Good luck!

[1stTimer]

Very interesting! Sounds like a whirlwind- she's only around for a month or two! And you need translators! It seems exciting and surreal. It's certainly interesting when people have traveled a lot, have a lot of nice friends, and have a lot of financial security. In my experience (my ex) it hasn't meant that those same people are not manipulating their nice friends, or are trustworthy. Honestly it felt like his parents being wealthy made him somewhat entitled and lazy in ways I didn't appreciate and ways his personal income didn't reflect. I was much more of a saver and he was more of a spender, and somehow he felt entitled to my savings. Sigh. It must be hard to gauge with such little time together and not being able to communicate directly. It sounds like you admire her a lot and are enjoying the positive affirmations she's able to share with you! I would certainly find visiting another country with someone else paying to be an enticing offer, but I would also be very wary about finding myself indebted to anyone- especially if it was someone not in my immediate family. I would be wondering what would happen if things did sour in the relationship- honestly whenever I've traveled together with friends it can be challenging to make decisions together and to be sharing so many intense experiences together and sometimes gets awkward even over the course of a week. Not sure if that's me being opinionated and stubborn (thanks, anxiety) or a normal thing. I can't imagine travelling with someone I've only known a short time, though I suppose it's worked fine for me in professional settings before.

Do you find you are able to maintain your business and work and exercise and personal goals in this new relationship? It sounds like you both appreciate each other and want to support and help each other which is nice. Maybe if things work out you'll learn more mandarin and she'll learn more English. Good luck!

Hi Tin thanks for the nice thoughts. Travelling there is a def no-no right now. Not sure how much of my situaton you know but in financial straits trying to get a long-term business venture off the ground. So travelling would mean her paying for flights both ways, putting me up, taking me out. 1/2 way around the world where I speak 4 words one of them being 'Cheers!' in a country we are having strained relations with and a girl who clearly seems (seemed?) to want a lot from me future-wise. It would put a strain on the relationship even if our genders were reversed, in this case begging for trouble and in any event I am sort of at her mercy.

I won't go until I can fly my way in and out at my leisure, move to a hotel if I want and uber/cab home on whim.

Right now it is not looking as it will happen even though as recently as yesterday she said she'd love to have me come. Something is up spidey-sense says. So for now it is 4 weeks of her being here and at this rate that means 2-3 more times to see her.

This is on the backburner for now unless she steps up somehow as I'm not making any more overtures.  I'm going to guess we'll hang out 1 or 2 times, text a few times when she is away and it wil fade. She'll contact me when she comes back next Spring, far more fluent according to her, and maybe we'll reconnect maybe we won't.

Right now working and working out and personal goals is not hard to balance since we see each other rarely now, I think maybe 2-3 times in the last month. It is a tepid whirlwind

I'd like to learn more Mandarin. I've come to, with my limited exposure, really like the way Chinese people interact with one another and it would be an interesting culture to immerse in a bit more.

I'll report back when and if she contacts me next week and see what is what. I still find it very interesting she blew off Wednesday dinner because she invited friends who could not make it. Either she changed plans with someone else or she did not want to be alone with me. Neither one portends well to me. I am in wait and see mode, no attachment to any outcome really. I like her as a person and no matter what happens likely will. As she would say 'You so cool!' In fact funny aside if you are a True Romance fan (the movie not the concept); she sent me a text once that said "You are so cool. You are so cool". I sent her a screenshot of the napkin Patricia Arquette's character sends Christian Slater where she writes in lipstick those very words and texted "I've always hoped a woman would say that to me". I always loved how she said that to him in the movie and it was a ... .cool ... . text to get   As you can see if she flies back and I don't see her again I'll still be very happy with what we had and to have spent time with her and her friends.

[1stTimer]

Update is that after apologizing profusely and telling me how extraordinary I am and how she'd reach out after her Boston trip I got radio-silence. I went to wechat and she'd blocked me from her 'Moments' feed (this could be aimed at me directly, in general, who knows). I sent a nice 'How is Boston?' and got a tepid reply, none of the I miss you etc. so something is up.

I re-read our exchanges and clearly up to her extending trip and gushing over and over how happy she was to have another month things were great. I miss you and flirting and the very amazing real fact that she went to St Patricks Cathedral to pray for me before my big meeting, lit candles, couldn't sleep all night worrying how it would go and according to her friend didn't eat for two days. This woman likes me.  Trying to parse he last exchange to me (after our "fight") is hard due to her English but I read it as (in summary): "It has nothing to do with Money, I like you but the language barrier is so hard. It was nice knowing you here but it is too hard. I would love YOU to come visit ME in Chengdu. I am studying English so when I return in the spring there will be no barriers between us". In other words it was not goodbye but see you later. Given how fabulous she has been to me and given how all her various friends gush to me how she gushes to them how great I am to her, how happy I make her, how she is so supportive of my business etc., I decided instead of just letting it go with radio-silence reach out. Given my reactive state I gave it  a day and I wrote this (no romance, no gush, no blame):

"Do you want to talk? I know I didn't handle things well but sort of felt like I was being pushed away right after telling me how much you were looking forward to spending another month with me and it was confusing. Maybe I didn't make clear how much I was looking forward to spending another month with you too or how disappointed I was that seemed to not be happening? I figured we were losing a chance to get closer so maybe when you left in November it might be "see you later" instead of "goodbye" for us. I certainly did not mean to hurt or offend you though. I don't know XL... All I do know is I'd hate to see you go home with us angry or never speaking again, you have come to mean a lot to me in a short period of time. Maybe we can figure out what happened? I'm not sure if our language and culture got in the way but behind both of those I think was two people who really liked each other."

I got an immediate reply, AGAIN hard to parse since she has such limited English (most especially with tenses and pronouns):

"Don't worry I will reach out to you before I go back to China! We do need to talk! Thank you so much!"

I can't really guess what happened but my "gut" is that at least one of the people in group of friends who translate for us at our events (where we and I are always the center of discussion) told her it was a waste of time to spend a month making love to me and falling in love since she is going back home and this Amercian man is not going to follow you or wait for you. I don't think it is "another man" (she told me I was the  first man she made love to since her divorce a year ago and she has plenty of suitors and I believe her) and I don' think she just stopped thinking I was "a remarkable man" or an "extraordinary gentleman" in the space of a week. I think given this all went down almost literally the day after she extended and expressed her happiness and desire to spend a month with me, reality set in (with the help of some friends).

In any event who knows? If she reaches out with some answers, fine. If not I left it in a good place. She might invite me,  I might go. She might return more fluent and available and I might be available. In any event I re-established having a good relationship with a truly amazing lady with all the qualities I like who saw those in me and who I made very happy. If that is the extent of our gift to one another so be it. If I ended up with a friend I can visit in China or spend time with when she visits even better. And if it turns into more, that door is open too.

[Skip]

You may be underestimating the significance of being highly reactive and breaking up with her.

It's human nature (common) for someone to first respond to that by trying to make amends... .and then afterward to think about how they feel about it what happened.

Breaking up as a way to be heard or to emote is generally not a good idea. It says, loudly, that either your commitment is shallow or your coping skills are volatile or both.

In any case, you latest response was great. Enough to open the door back up. Not too much so that you feel foolish.