uBPD/uNPD H is tightfisted with me

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

uBPD/uNPD H is extremely stingy with me. 

He is only lavish with his children (extensions of himself) and himself.

H spends thousands of dollars on his children for sporting goods, bail bonds, lawyer fees, expensive designer clothing, jewellery, hand bags and items, while the gifts H give me are trinkets in comparison.

H treats himself very, very well.  In the last year, H bought himself a luxury car and fine motorcyle and took out a fifty thousand dollar loan.   

When I asked why my gifts were so cheap by comparison, H flew into a rage and said he pays the mortgage and other expenses.  In truth, I pay all the utilities and percentage wise, a greater bulk of my small income goes to joint expenses.

 

[AskingWhy]

uBPD/uNPD H is extremely stingy with me. 

He is only lavish with his children (extensions of himself) and himself.

H spends thousands of dollars on his children for sporting goods, bail bonds, lawyer fees, expensive designer clothing, jewellery, hand bags and items, while the gifts H give me are trinkets in comparison.

H treats himself very, very well.  In the last year, H bought himself a luxury car and fine motorcyle and took out a fifty thousand dollar loan.   

When I asked why my gifts were so cheap by comparison, H flew into a rage and said he pays the mortgage and other expenses.  In truth, I pay all the utilities and percentage wise, a greater bulk of my small income goes to joint expenses.

 

[formflier]

When I asked why my gifts were so cheap by comparison

 

Where those the actual words you used? 

Why do you think he went into a rage?  Were you able to talk further later... when things were calmer?

FF

[Notwendy]

From your posts, it seems you don't feel valued by your H, and you feel he seems to value his children more than he values you. You feel this way by observing that he is more attentive to them and spends more money on them. You've also posted that he shapes himself according to the people he is with- listens to music he doesn't like or agrees with his friends when you don't think he does.

What direction do you want to take with this relationship? You've told him how you feel but he doesn't seem to be changing his behavior. Assuming he doesn't change, what do you want to do- what steps/changes do you want to make- with regards to the relationship?

[formflier]

You've also posted that he shapes himself according to the people he is with

This would seem like a powerful insight that can be used by AskingWhy to change the dynamic of her relationship, whether her pwBPD wants to or not.

FF

[loyalwife]

    Although i know how hurtful it is to feel that our BPD doesn't value us as much as they do others or themselves; it is fruitless to think that they will change. The only one that we can change is ourselves, and our behavior.
    This resentment seems to have built up in you, and I understand that it's not about the gifts as much as the value he puts on them. Obviously, he values himself much more than you. He may not feel that you 'deserve' them, and that he shows you that by his lack of generosity. My uBPD husband does this same thing in a different way, buying himself expensive cars (so far he has 10), while he scoffs about buying groceries, gas or anything I consume. He even said yesterday "Why should I have to spend my money on you?" We were talking about the future and getting old. So, where do you go from here? You have a choice, and if you choose to stay in the relationship than the changing comes within you. Go out and buy yourself some beautiful flowers to begin with. Put them in a place that you can enjoy them, and consider them a gift from you. Do not let his spending hurt you. Turn it around and try to think about why he is doing this, perhaps as a child he wasn't given any gifts and now is bestowing them on himself (his kids are the same). Be happy that he is finally taking back the feeling of deprivation and enjoy that those needs are being met. this is your life, and you can take it back. Call some friends, make new ones. Go out for a drive and breath in the air. Watch the sun set and sink in all the beauty around you that doesn't cost a thing and that is yours to enjoy.
     Things will never fill anyone up with happiness as it is all temporary. Try to see this for what it is, and whether he is doing it out of spite, unknowingly or because of his own trauma, it doesn't matter. What matters is that you value yourself. The next time you feel like asking him

When I asked why my gifts were so cheap by comparison

, it might not be important anymore. I feel for you and understand how this makes one feel. Just remember that you are worth so much more than things.
      Sending you kind regards

[Cat Familiar]

Good insights from loyalwife 

Though my husband can be generous, some times I have to laugh because I see how he values himself differently. For example, he drinks mostly white wine (lots of it--at least a bottle a night, often more) and I drink red wine. If he doesn't finish up the bottle he's bought for my consumption, it often will last nearly a week. But frequently, he'll finish a bottle of white wine then drink the rest of the red.

The ironic thing is that he'll buy himself really expensive wine, yet what he buys me is fairly cheap. The math doesn't make sense. Perhaps four bottles a month for me, and 30 bottles a month for him, probably 45, because often he'll buy two a night for himself.

I used to wonder if this was a not-so-subtle message about my importance in relation to him, but now I just think it's kinda funny.

[AskingWhy]

Do not let his spending hurt you. Turn it around and try to think about why he is doing this, perhaps as a child he wasn't given any gifts and now is bestowing them on himself (his kids are the same). Be happy that he is finally taking back the feeling of deprivation and enjoy that those needs are being met.  Just remember that you are worth so much more than things.
      Sending you kind regards

Loyalwife, I know exactly where H gets his penny pinching, at least where I am concerned.  It's a bit complicated.  His uNPD father was married to his mother, an enabler and codependent, for more than sixty years.  When she died, she left this world with the only thing of value her H gave her--the wedding ring on the day she married H's father.  She was never gifted with jewellery to mark the passing of anniversaries or the birth of children, nor any special gift to mark special occasions.  She had only one nice bracelet to her name that she bought witha small amount of the money she saved from working odd jobs to support the family.  FIL always, though, had money for hunting and fish excursions, golf green fees, and money for hunting and fishing gear and golf clubs.  FIL spent thousands of dollars on himself, and his W got the privilege of cleaning what he caught or killed and cooked meals of the game. FIL's gifts to his wife were to cook the game, or entertain herself alone in the golf clubhouse.

H and his siblings also got short changed, and were known as "poor kids" in school who wore homemade clothes and hand-me-downs.  A typical NPD, FIL had a very high opinion of himself that was undeserved.  He was an itinerant salesman who barely made enough to support his family, and spent the surplus not to delight his wife or children, but on himself.  H is still in denial of the poverty he was raised in.  H is also jealous of the relative comfort in which I was raised.

FF, Cat and Notwendy, I know over the two decades of marriage that H "tries" to be generous with me, but falls horribly short when compared to what he gets for his children.  My gifts are like trinkets compared to what he spends on them: video games for drug-addicted son, flat screen televisions for another child, air fare to Asia for another, and on and on. Clothing, luxury goods, free cars, jewellery.  He showers his children with gifts. This may have to do with the years they blackmailed him when living as children and teens with their uNPD M.  H's X W had full custody of the children, and they worked him like a puppet.

When I say anything about gifts or show disappointment, H rages and says he pays the mortgage, and that should be enough.  Then I get the whole range of dysregulation: says he is miserable with me, says I am a mean b&tch and a c%nt, that he hates me, wants a divorce, that he can't understand how we have been together for as long as we have, etc.  Then he'll punch a hole in the wall or upend furniture, scaring the pets.  He will invariably elect to sleep on the couch as a means of withholding affecting and giving the silent treatment.

H most recently suggested, instead of Christmas gifts, that we both go in on a new home furnace as a "gift to each other."  I immediately shot that idea down, saying a furnace is not a "gift." I was insulted to think he did not want to get me a personal gift.

And, FF, there is no talking to H about the gifts.  He flies into a rage at any broach of the subject.  He is very, very generous to himself with his sporting gear, new cars and new trucks.

I know what I must do now--spoil myself.  I have my eye on something pricey that I have wanted for a long time, so it's time to get it for myself.  

[formflier]

And, FF, there is no talking to H about the gifts.  He flies into a rage at any broach of the subject. 

AskingWhy

You are very good with your analysis of some parts of your relationship.  This is an area I hope you can reflect a bit so that you can change the dynamic, even if your husband doesn't want to.

That's the critical part... he doesn't get to vote.  Although he does get to rage... or whatever else.

Clarity:  He rages... you go do something else.

Important questions:  Does your hubby want to talk about gifts?  (I know... you've already answered this... .but start here for his frame of mind.)

My guess is he has guilt and shame for the way he is treating you.

So... .how does your hubby avoid talking to you about gifts?

Does the way your hubby avoid this "work"? (work for him)

Now... .I'm going to hush, because I want to make sure we are on same page with this very important part of the issue... .before going to next steps.

FF

[AskingWhy]

My guess is he has guilt and shame for the way he is treating you.

So... .how does your hubby avoid talking to you about gifts?

Does the way your hubby avoid this "work"? (work for him)

H has neither guilt nor shame in how he shortchanges me with gifts.  He has noted my disappointment and has raged at me, stating he will never, ever buy me anything else.  Again, my FIL was the ultimate cheap skate to his wife of over six decades.   Guilt, however, drives H to lavish money and gifts on his children and Gchildren.  The gifts are an attempt to curry favor and the children use blackmail of disapproval to get his compliance.

And as for the avoiding talking about gifts?  Rage.  This rage will spiral out of control into divorce threats, silent treatment and withholding of affection.  H has threatened to take back the gifts and in the case of jewellery, return them or pawn them.  (No loss, really, as they are cheap.)

[Notwendy]

There's a lot written on these boards where a spouse with BPD has a skewed sense of fairness. One spouse could be doing the major part of financially supporting the family and housework/kids while the other still perceives their contribution as "unfair". I think this is something that can not be changed by discussions, as it isn't possible to change how someone sees things.
 
I understand that you feel you have a right to your resentment- and I agree that you do, but you also have a choice to make this an issue or not- because it isn't going to change through discussions- and it may not be possible to change it at all.

Part of choosing to stay in a relationship is deciding what is tolerable behavior and what is not. Something like abuse is IMHO unacceptable,  and that is something to work on, but being a stingy person is part of someone's character. If he gives you a cheap gift, it is still a gift to him and you bringing up that it's cheap is going to make him angry. We all have our deal breakers, and they are different for everyone- so without judgement- if this is something that is a deal breaker to you- then make it one, but staying with him and continuing these kinds of discussions is not going to lead to any kind of resolution. If this is something you choose to tolerate and stay with him- then you may be happier if you just let it go- and accept this is who he is- it is about him, not your value. I don't think a discussion about it would lead to any resolution.

I've had similar experiences with my BPD mother. She doesn't give me gifts but is lavish with a sibling. I would say something to her as a kid and she'd rage and scream at me not to expect anything from her. It's nicer not expecting anything. Recently after decades of not sending me anything, she sent a birthday gift. It was an inexpensive generic gift. I admit, I cried - not over the value of the gift but how impersonal it felt. Her FOO has also given me really strange impersonal gifts over the years- and they are well off. Things that are broken or don't fit ( they don't ask my size) as a kid. I think it is just who they are. Your H comes from a family of non-gift givers for spouses- his dad didn't buy his mom things. Maybe it is who he is.

[formflier]

So... .does rage work for him to avoid talking about gifts?

Very important we are on same page about if what he is doing is working for his purposes?

FF

[AskingWhy]

So... .does rage work for him to avoid talking about gifts?

Very important we are on same page about if what he is doing is working for his purposes?

FF

FF, I think H is actually embarrassed that his own F was such a cheap a$$ with his mother.  Again, in 60 years, he never bought anything meaningful in the way of a mememto such as a piece of jewellery for a 25th anniversary or 50th anniversary. 

In fact, H paid (his own money) to take his parents on an anniversary vacation to the Bahamas.    If I were his F, I'd be embarrassed to have my own son pay for an anniversary vacation.  It would have been my gift to my wife and an appreciation of our marriage.  Then again, my FIL is uNPD and treats himself very well (hunting and golf) and ignoring his wife.

I think that the prohected anger (at me) comes from knowing his own M was treated so poorly by his F as I point it out.  It is no secret my own F did what a man of his generation did for his wife:  jewellery, fur coats, cars and vacations.

[loyalwife]

I think that the prohected anger (at me) comes from knowing his own M was treated so poorly by his F as I point it out.  It is no secret my own F did what a man of his generation did for his wife:  jewellery, fur coats, cars and vacations.

     As children, we watch how our parents treat each other. As adults, we may mimic this behavior; or we can learn by their downfalls. Your husband came from (it sounds) an emotionally abusive family. What matters most now is that you, yes you, feel valued.
     I am not sure if this will work for you, but I can say it has for me. For months and months (years), my uBPDh has lavished himself with gifts. It was bothering me, but then I try to think of him as a small boy that never felt he had enough. Since you mentioned that you came from a family that 'showed' how they felt in gifts; seeing your husband in a different light might help. Recently, he ordered a vintage watch online. It was one from his past, and he anxiously awaited it's arrival. When it came, it was a women's watch instead. He said "I guess you inherit this one". At first I felt offended (not a gift), and he flew off the handle. I quickly saw that he had escalated quickly and turned to him and said "The watch is beautiful, please forgive me for my reaction. My mother used to buy things for herself, and then give them to me as gifts. I never felt they were really ever gifts. I want to thank you, again." He changed his attitude, and realized that not only did my reaction make sense, perhaps he should take note.  It is you that have the power (I think of Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, and her ruby shoes) all along. When he starts to react or resent, reach inside of your heart and pull out a reply.
    Living with anyone with BPD is tough. But you are tougher.
    I read a book one time by a doctor named Bernie Siegel. He talked about visualizing the life you want ie. posters on the wall. Although he was an oncologist, and treated those with a terminal disease, in so many ways we are up against the same prognosis. Create that life that you knew as a child. Surround yourself with beautiful things. Perhaps your husband will eventually see differently about gifts, and if not, it doesn't matter.
     I just wanted to share this piece with you. My heart goes out to you.

[AskingWhy]

I had the chance to go with H to one of those "big box" stores recently. I have a company membership for my personal business and H asked if he could come with me.  (The store offers hardware and tools, and home items that H wanted to peruse.)  H was wondering aloud that he wanted a big box membership for himself.

As we entered the store, we saw rows of Christmas items and also luxury jewellery.  I used this occasion to point out the nice jewellery items to H, hinting they would make nice gifts for me.   H knows I am quite dissatisfied with his going cheap on me for gifts. 

I don't know if this made a dent in his stinginess with me.  Again, as others have noted, BPDs have skewed notions on the ideas of fairness.

I can, however, buy myself one of these nice baubles.I am considering this.  I have long given up on the notion of H being a prince charming or knight in shining armour to me.  That notion died years ago and is, in fact, cold ash.

[Cat Familiar]

Definitely buy yourself something that you desire and that makes you feel good.    You deserve it--as a medal for the battles you've endured.

At this point you are at choice. You know who he is and what sort of behavior you can expect from him. And you know, based upon your longterm history with him, that he's unlikely to change. The question is--can you continue to tolerate this? And should you? And if you choose not to, then how do you imagine you will recreate your life away from him?

[AskingWhy]

Definitely buy yourself something that you desire and that makes you feel good.    You deserve it--as a medal for the battles you've endured.

At this point you are at choice. You know who he is and what sort of behavior you can expect from him. And you know, based upon your longterm history with him, that he's unlikely to change. The question is--can you continue to tolerate this? And should you? And if you choose not to, then how do you imagine you will recreate your life away from him?

Yes, Cat.  At this point I have a choice.  It's a great feeling to finally know that I am not the crazy one and that I can leave at any time.  I am trying to visualise how life will be without him and the constant criticism and fault-finding.  When he goes to visit his adult children, the euphoria lasts a few days when H returns, but after that he is at the criticism again.  I am depressed for years of this and I find it hard to even rise out of bed.

And loyalwife, H did come from an abusive family. FIL is most likely NPD for all I know of the man.  I have seen him interact with his W when she was alive, and she was his workhorse and pack mule.  And she thought she had the most caring H in the world!  It was surreal.  Thank you for the encouragement.

I try to buy nice things for myself (I have my own business and income), but H rages when he sees me with something nice that is new.  Early in our marriage I bought a nice nightie for myself with the hopes to delight him, and H sniffed, "Huh.  How much did that cost me?"  No comment like, "How lovely!  I'd love to see you in it!"  It's just not in him.

I can always tell when H dysregulates due to the poutiness and rage.  This evening, I swear it's like being married to a teenager, I told him not to take my long hair on the bathroom floor and flush it down the toilet with a wad of facial tissues.  H can't stand to see the hair on the floor as I comb my hair and must immediate pick it up.  It's part of his need to control, something he never had as a child raised in poverty by a uNPD F who spent all the disposable income on himself and enabler mother.  Anyhow, hair can seriously clog the drains. I was amazed I had to tell H that.  He is a retired military man and is on a second career as a consulting engineer.  H could not take my criticism of what he did (stupid, actually) and took it as a personal insult.

Hair does not dissolve in a drain, and facial tissues, unlike toilet paper, is made not to dissolve.  I was irritated at the prospect of having to call a plumber in the future if a drain had plugged, and H took this as a person criticism.  (If I had to call a plumber I most likely would have been the one H blamed.)  Then the anger and the pouting, and then not even wanting a kiss at bedtime.  Instead, H pouted and turned away from me before I left the bedroom.  (I go to bed later than H.)  

I saw it for what it was--the BPD. I laughed at him and said, "Do we want a divorce now?  Do you hate me and regret you ever married me?"  I laughed again and said I bet myself he'd go down the "black and white path."  I said I should buy myself something really nice.  (I have not suggested that I know he has BPD, nor do I suggest he find a therapist.  Billy Eddy advises against it in the possibility of divorce.)  At this point, I am no longer caring about  the divorce threats and rages.  I know it's all part of the BPD.  I honestly am ready to accept a divorce should he have me served.  I already know my rights in our state.

So much for S.E.T.  It's now, "Have it your way, you selfish jerk.  You are no better than your father."  H is very aware of how poorly his F treated his M when she was alive, so my saying this is a sure way to get my point across.  

I have no more empathy in times like this.  More than 20 years of pain tolerating rage, broken and upended furniture, holes punched in walls, broken dishes, sometimes weekly divorce threats, having H prefer his children over me and the most horrid name-calling--not to mention the tears I have cried from the depths of my soul (before I understood BPD)--have really thickened my hide.  

[AskingWhy]

Yes, Cat.  At this point I have a choice.  It's a great feeling to finally know that I am not the crazy one and that I can leave at any time.  I am trying to visualise how life will be without him and the constant criticism and fault-finding.  When he goes to visit his adult children, the euphoria lasts a few days when H returns, but after that he is at the criticism again.  I am depressed for years of this and sometimes find it hard to even rise out of bed.

And loyalwife, H did come from an abusive family. FIL is most likely NPD for all I know of the man.  I have seen him interact with his W when she was alive, and she was his workhorse and pack mule.  And she thought she had the most caring H in the world!  It was surreal.  Thank you for the encouragement.

I try to buy nice things for myself (I have my own business and income), but H rages when he sees me with something nice that is new.  Early in our marriage I bought a nice nightie for myself with the hopes to delight him, and H sniffed, "Huh.  How much did that cost me?"  No comment like, "How lovely!  I'd love to see you in it!"  It's just not in him.

I can always tell when H dysregulates due to the poutiness and rage.  This evening, I swear it's like being married to a teenager, I told him not to take my long hair on the bathroom floor and flush it down the toilet with a wad of facial tissues.  H can't stand to see the hair on the floor as I comb my hair and must immediate pick it up.  It's part of his need to control, something he never had as a child raised in poverty by a uNPD F who spent all the disposable income on himself...  Anyhow, hair can seriously clog the drains. I was amazed I had to tell H that.  He is a retired military man and is on a second career as a consulting engineer.  H could not take my criticism of what he did (stupid, actually) and took it as a personal insult.

Hair does not dissolve in a drain, and facial tissues, unlike toilet paper, is made not to dissolve.  I was irritated at the prospect of having to call a plumber in the future if a drain had plugged, and H took this as a person criticism.  (If I had to call a plumber I most likely would have been the one H blamed.)  Then the anger and the pouting, and then not even wanting a kiss at bedtime.  Instead, H pouted and turned away from me before I left the bedroom.  (I go to bed later than H.)  

I saw it for what it was--the BPD. I laughed at him and said, "Do we want a divorce now?  Do you hate me and regret you ever married me?"  I laughed again and said I bet myself he'd go down the "black and white path."  I said I should buy myself something really nice.  (I have not suggested that I know he has BPD, nor do I suggest he find a therapist.  Billy Eddy advises against it in the possibility of divorce.)  At this point, I am no longer caring about  the divorce threats and rages.  I know it's all part of the BPD.  I honestly am ready to accept a divorce should he have me served.  I already know my rights in our state.

So much for S.E.T.  It's now, "Have it your way, you selfish jerk.  You are no better than your father."  H is very aware of how poorly his F treated his M when she was alive, so my saying this is a sure way to get my point across.  

I have no more empathy in times like this.  More than 20 years of pain tolerating rage, broken and upended furniture, holes punched in walls, broken dishes, sometimes weekly divorce threats, having H prefer his children over me and the most horrid name-calling--not to mention the tears I have cried from the depths of my soul (before I understood BPD)--have really thickened my hide.  

[formflier]

How has "hinting" worked for your goals in the past?

FF

[AskingWhy]

FF, it's hard to say if hinting works.

H came from such a dysfunctional family (uNPD FIL spent all the family money on himself:  sport equipment, golf green fees, etc.)  MIL got nothing in her over 60 years of marriage except her wedding band.

H, I think, tries hard, but he has had such poor role models.  His attempts, considering his professional income and the expensive gifts he gives to his children, a really poor and disappointing.  As such, they are insulting.

[Notwendy]

There's an emotional aspect to money and I think this is a reflection of how BPD affects him. BPD tends to affect the most intimate relationships the most. It is also how he may see money. It reminds me a bit of BPD mom- for her - she uses money to influence a relationship- she wants people to like her and also for control. Money is just one way she does this- influences people.

Both a pwBPD and a non can be co-dependent. When your H gives his children money, he is also fostering their dependence on him- taking care of his own need for his children to stick around and also is a form of control- keeping them on the purse strings so they continue to be attached to him. This is co-dependent behavior. With you, he may not feel the need to do this and so is less motivated to spend a lot of money trying to buy your attention.

I get your resentment, but I think you would be happier if you saw it as part of the disorder and not about how he feels about you. My BPD mother is far more generous with her home helpers, her FOO and friends than she is with me. She is also over the top generous with my children. What she really wants is to bypass me, and have her own one on one relationship with my kids- she's attempting to triangulate- get them to "her side" in her drama triangle world. She also does this with her FOO- buys the children on that side very generous gifts so they like her. I understand how you feel when you receive a cheesy gift. My mother had not sent me one in decades and on a birthday, a box from her came in the mail. I had my hopes up for a few seconds and when I opened it, I cried for a moment- it was an inexpensive impersonal gift. It wasn't about the cost- I would have preferred a card, or nothing, but the gift itself was impersonal. Her FOO has done this too- they have even given me gifts of objects that are broken or used. I don't know what she was thinking- maybe in her world she thought she was being nice. At any rate, I didn't say anything. When someone gives you a gift, the appropriate response is to thank them. Then, you can do what you want with it.

You say you can afford your own nice jewelry and in this case, go get it. I know you would rather get it from your H, but what you really want is the feeling behind it- the nice generous feelings. It appears to you that he has this with his children but the gifts don't reflect this feeling either. He is who he is and how he gives gifts is a reflection of that. Radical acceptance is a part of being in a relationship with someone- and this is who he is- and likely has little to do with you.

[formflier]

FF, it's hard to say if hinting works.
 

So... .why do it?  What about direct and succinct?

FF