I'm considering asking my daughter to move out

[Hyacinth Bucket]

OH, you are brave and lovely and loving. I know how you feel though, it's easy to go down that dark hole. I've been reading and rereading the parent's bill of rights that WendyDarling posted the other day...

Parents' Bill of Rights - https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=144903.0

It's making me feel so much better. To remember that I have needs too.

Sending lots of hugs

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Only Human]

Hello again Panda,

I've read some of the information in the link you posted. I feel better about talking with GS about this stuff now. Thank you.

And Hello again Hyacinth Bucket, we are all over each other's threads... .getting through this together. I love the Parents Bill of Rights. I feel so guilty and afraid, but I'm doing the right thing.

Last night she sent a text I didn't respond to:

I need a hard copy of my 30 day notice please.

This morning, this happened:

Her: I'll say again I need a copy of the eviction notice. I need a hard copy and you withholding it even a day makes it harder for me to notify the proper people on time. I need it by tonight. I know you have a printer in your room.

Me: I'm not withholding, I haven't written it yet. The 30-days doesn't begin until I give you notice. I love you (name). I'm sad that it has come to this.

Her: I'm letting you know I have a video of you confirming you're evicting me and now I need the hard copy ASAP so you need to print me out one. I should have had it yesterday, I will expect it tonight.

Her: If I don't have it by tonight this is emotional abuse and you're holding my housing above my head.

I did not reply to those last texts.

I wrote the following letter with the help of my T.  I plan to leave it on the counter as GS and I are leaving for our weekly time together tomorrow. I'm hoping she'll still be asleep when we leave. I'm also hoping she won't say I can't have my time with GS. I really don't think she will, because I know how much she enjoys having him out of her hair. We also have extra plans on Sunday, GS and I. I bought tickets to a Halloween/Super Hero themed train ride at the train museum. When I bought the tickets last weekend, I asked if DD would like to come along, provided she pay for her own ticket. She declined but agreed GS would love it. I hope we get to go.

"10/27/2018

Dear DD,

I love you and want you to have the best in life. You make it very hard when you push me away and hurt me verbally and when I watch you hurt GS verbally and emotionally. I’ve begun to pull away because I don’t want to be hurt anymore. This doesn’t mean I don’t love you or don’t care about you, it means I’m doing what I have to do to protect myself.

After you’ve said terrible things to me, as I’ve watched you talk badly about me in front of GS, you’re asking me to be loving, kind, and thoughtful. But you continue to berate me and hurt me. When you ask me for help and I say no, it’s not because I don’t want to help you, or because I’m being hurtful, it’s just that I’m not able to in that moment. It hurts me when you blow up at me when I’m simply saying that I’m not able to help you. You have to understand that sometimes people can’t do what you ask. It’s not because they don’t love your or don’t care about you, they just might not be able to help.

When I say I believe you hurt GS verbally and emotionally, it doesn’t mean I think you’re a horrible person. It means I’m concerned and hope you will choose to find different ways to interact with him that don’t hurt him and that don’t negatively affect his opinion of you and that don’t negatively affect his opinion of himself.

I have not asked you to move out because I don’t want you here or because I don’t love you, or because I want to hurt you. I have asked you to move out because we aren’t able to get along anymore. This letter serves as a 30-day notice to move out no later than 11/26/2018.

I love you and hope someday you will seek treatment for your Borderline Personality Disorder. You deserve a happy, pleasant life and GS deserves a mommy who doesn’t yell at him and punish him for not being perfect."

[wendydarling]

OH ~ you are doing the right thing, as you say. When we honour ourselves, our feelings we find strength and clarity, you are a strong woman and as you say in your letter you care, you love. I'm glad you had support from your T to write the letter. Panda39, thanks for pointing to the co-parenting resources, there are many co-parenting grandparents here who'll be benefit from your share.

OH, I'm thinking of you and hope you have your time with GS as planned.

We've got you  

WDx

[Hyacinth Bucket]

Hi OH,

What a great letter, it's perfect. I'll be waiting to hear how your time with GS goes, and how she reacts to your letter. I so hope you get to go to the train museum tomorrow, too. I'll be thinking of you today.

HB

[Panda39]

OH,
I'm glad I could share the site's information, it's helped me so much too, in terms of my SO's daughters.

Your letter was heartfelt and I know really hard to write.  I hope you are able to have a good talk with your grandson and enjoy this special day together.

Panda39

[Only Human]

My morning with GS went well. He woke me up at 6 and our day began. Breakfast, playing with magnets, riding his scooter in the garage, getting dressed and then off to my cousin's house for a playdate with her son who is five months younger than GS.

In the car, I said, "Remember I told you we would talk about me kicking you out?" He said, "Yeah, you kicked me out." I said, "What does that mean?" He said, "I don't know what it means." I said, "Well, I can tell you that mommy and memaw aren't able to get along anymore, do you know what that means?" He said, "I don't know what that means." I said, "We argue a lot, do you know what that means?" He said, "I don't know what that means." (I'm puzzled by this because I've heard him say, "Stop arguing guys") I said, "Hm... .well, arguing is when people don't agree," and he said, "Yeah, arguing is (a word I couldn't figure out)." I said, "What's (word) mean?" He said, "It means (word)" I said, "Well, I don't know what that means, but like I said, mommy and memaw are arguing a lot and so you and mommy are going to live somewhere else. I still love you very much and I still love mommy very much." He said, "I want to live with you forever." I said, "You want to live with me forever?" He said, "Yeah, I don't want to live at (DD's new internet b/f's name) house." I said, "Well, I really like living with you too but you and mommy are going to live somewhere else and even though were are not going to live in the same house anymore, I hope we can spend time together a lot." He said, "Me too. And I love you too." Then he pointed out something outside and we talked about that.

I said, "If you want to talk more about it later, you can always talk to me about it, ok?" He said, "Ok, I want to talk about something else." I said, "What would you like to talk about?" He said, "I want to talk about stairs." I said, "Ok, what about stairs?" He said, "(DD's internet b/f's name)'s house has stairs." I said, "Oh, does it?" He said, "Yes, and you can walk up the stairs and down the stairs." I said, "That's right, you can walk up the stairs and down the stairs." Then he talked about all the Halloween decorations we were seeing, asked if (cousin's son) was home, does he still have a scooter? does he want to play with me?, etc.

The playdate went ok. GS pushed and hit (cousin's son) a few times and yelled at him a few times. Consequences were handed out (take 5), and we got through it without anyone needing stitches =) My cousin is aware of what's happening and is very supportive.

There's more to this, of course, but I'd be here all day giving the play by play. The gist of it is that GS is dealing with a lot of tough stuff right now and his behavior reflects that. He told me he likes to hurt people, "it's what I do." I can't remember my response if any. My heart is breaking but I am strong in front of him.

As for the letter, I handed it to DD before GS and I left this morning, after I put GS in the car seat. I said, "Here you go, honey." She said, "Thank you." Nothing more has been said between us.

We got home around 11:30 and GS and I hung out on the back patio for about 15 minutes before I said, "Okay, I'm going to go into my room and hang out with (my dog's name) for a little while. GS stalled, trying to get me to hang out longer. I was patient but firm. I've been in my room for about 20 minutes and I can tell that he's now on quiet time before his nap.

I may also take a nap, I haven't decided yet.

[Only Human]

Hi HB  

I didn't answer your question, "How did your daughter react when you asked her to move out?"

The whole conversation was a disaster. I started by saying, "Last time we talked, you told me you were making plans to move out. Where are you with that?"

Her: I'm making plans, I'm not going to tell you my plans. I told you I needed 3-6 months and then I'll be moving out of state.

Me: I don't think I can do this for 3-6 months

Her: Is this my 30 days notice?

Me: Yeah

It went downhill from there. She asked why, I said because she's not doing the things she agreed to do when she moved it. She insisted she was, I argued that she wasn't, totally got sucked in to the argument and focused on stupid stuff like her not keeping the house picked up, her not going to counseling, etc. She said the house is clean, I said it wasn't. I regret how I handled this interaction. I did say, "If someone talked to you the way you talk to GS, it would be unacceptable to you." I did say, "When I'm not able to help you, you start verbally abusing me and hang up on me."

She said, "You've evicted me, I wish T was here because everything I said would happen has happened. I'm always right about you."

She said, "I won't be doing any cleaning these next 30 days."
I said, "If you don't clean, I'll give you a three-day notice to clean or move out."
She said, "You can't give me three days notice, I have 30 days as a squatter, bitch."

She said, "If you're evicting me, where's my piece of paper, bitch?"
I said, "I'll give you one."

She said, "You do realize you're digging your own grave with your relationship with GS? Giving me 30 days notice is just speeding it up. I have one question, do you regret any of this?"
I said, "The decisions I've made I've made for me. I think it would be a bad idea if you keep me from seeing GS but that's your choice."
She said, "I won't tell you where I'm moving, but I will tell you it's out of state."
I said, "That's your choice."

I regret not saying I love you, I regret getting sucked in and being argumentative.

After all this, she got on the phone and started yelling about what happened. GS was at preschool, I know better than to have tough talks when he's in the house. I told her to stop screaming in the house. She said, "YOU EVICTED ME, I HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO BE PISSED OFF AND I'LL SCREAM IF I WANT TO." I said, "Stop screaming in my house," and I walked away. I heard her say, "Watch, now she's going to call the cops on me." I turned around and said, "If you don't stop screaming, I will call the police to have you removed." She stopped screaming.

Not proud of either of us. But that's what happened.

~ OH

[Hyacinth Bucket]

I think you handled it as well as you could have. I've been in that position and it's hard enough to keep calm let alone be present enough to say exactly what you want. I think your letter more than made up for anything you may have wished you'd said during the conversation. I think it also shows that you're certainly making the right choice, your situation is not tenable.

I'm glad you had a nice morning with your GS and I'm also sorry he's acting out so much. You handled your conversation etih him so well. You should be so proud of yourself. I think no matter what you said to your daughter she would have been belligerent. Having a good talk with your GS is so much more important. And you did an amazing job.

I'm also glad you're taking some time alone for yourself. Im not sure if you noticed your posts are much more confident than when you first joined. Do you feel more self assured? Or like you're regaining some control? It definitely sounds like you are from your writing.

I hope the rest of your day is relaxed and uneventful. Be very proud of yourself.

[Only Human]

I don't feel more confident, but that may be because I still feel so fragile, weak, and my definition of "confident" is such a high standard. Thank you, as always, Hyacinth Bucket , for pointing out things I can't see for myself.

You're right, "I think no matter what you said to your daughter she would have been belligerent." I really think she was expecting the "eviction" and possibly lost respect for me after each verbal lashing I endured without standing up for myself.

When she was an adolescent, her T told me... ."Get a backbone because she needs to see you as a strong person. She needs to know she can count on you to be strong when she's weak."

Thanks also for reminding me that my conversations with my GS are more important. My current T said to me, "You've spent so much time and energy trying to help your daughter, she's letting you know she's an immovable force. It's time to put that energy into helping the next generation."

Thanks again, Panda39 , for the link. I don't know what validating questions I can ask to help him arrive at his own conclusions but I felt much more confident talking to him after having read the information you posted. 

Hi Gorges , and thank you for posting in my thread. Sorry for not acknowledging you sooner. 

I think you are expecting way too much of yourself.  It is your daughter's responsibility to change herself.  You cannot change her.

These are words to live by, thank you.

wendydarling Thank you, as always. You are the first person who reached out to me here, your post and private message meant so much to me. Thanks for taking time to support me.

To everyone reading, cheering me on, supporting me, thank you. It's amazing to me that people have energy and time to support others even when they're going through it themselves. I hope someday I can do that too.

Today was a good day for GS. DD took him to the park after his nap and all of the interactions I overheard were mostly pleasant. DD passed up a few opportunities to badmouth me in front of GS, something I'm truly grateful for.

Good night everyone. I don't know any of you personally but I have great affection and admiration for you all. Thank you so so much for being here. I'm eternally grateful for having found my BPD Family xoxo

~ OH

[Hyacinth Bucket]

Hi OH,

Were you able to go to the train exhibit today with GS?

HB

[Only Human]

Hi HB  

Yes we did! It was a nice trip overall with some challenging bumps along the way. We started off at the Museum, where I thought Will Call was, but wasn't. Since we arrived so early, we checked out the museum first and I'm glad we did.

The train ride was about 45 minutes and GS enjoyed most of it. He teared up a few times, saying he misses his mommy and wants to go home because he'll never see her again. (This is the second time he's said something like this in the last few days. I'm suspecting she has threatened him somehow that if he talks about her hitting or kicking him, he'll be taken from her and will never see her again) Each time I did my best to validate him and assured him that after the train ride we would go straight home if he wanted to.

As it turned out, he chose instead to hang around Old Town for a bit afterward and we saw lots and lots of kids and adults in costume, he loved that part!

We ended our time back at the museum and he picked out a cool puzzle train track playset thing from the gift shop. He reacted angrily when I told him, "When we get home it will be wind-down time." He growled at me and screamed at me, "I don't want to do wind-down time when we get home!" I said, "Oh, you sound very angry." He said, "I AM angry!" I said, "Do you know why you're angry?" He said, "I don't know why I'm angry!" I said, "Do you think it's beause I told you it's wind-down time when we get home?" He said, "Yes!" I said, "And you wanted to play with your train set when we get home, right?" He said, "Yes!" I said, "Oh, it's no fun when we can't do what we want to do. You really want to play with your train set when we get home but it will be wind down time. I can see why that would make you angry. Thank you for telling me your feelings." He said, "So, can I play with my train set when we get home?" I said, "No, but you can play with it after your nap and there will be lots and lots of time to play after your nap." He said, "Can I have my train set on wind-down time?" I said, "That's a good idea, yes." He said, "Good." Then said, "Can I have my train set in my nap?" I said, "You can have it in bed with you but only if it stays closed." He said, "I will have to be very careful that it doesn't open up accidentally." I said, "That's a good idea." He said, "Good."

Whew!

Thanks for asking HB  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Hyacinth Bucket]

aww! Look at those validation skills     

I'm so glad you were able to go. You're an awesome grandparent! He is lucky to have you!

[Only Human]

Thanks HB.

[wendydarling]

2nd aww HB, I love this

Then said, "Can I have my train set in my nap?" I said, "You can have it in bed with you but only if it stays closed." He said, "I will have to be very careful that it doesn't open up accidentally." I said, "That's a good idea." He said, "Good."

I wonder if it opened... .accidentally  

You are doing an awesome job helping GS make sense of what's happening, these are conversations he'll remember and you can do a re-do anytime if you feel that may help.

This is an interesting thread on co-parenting, you may relate having given it a go. We parent in many different ways, near and far, I think there are nuggets here of learning for us all. My DD's father has always been in her life, how he wanted to be, he's not 'parented' like my father, contributed financially, kept to any schedule, provide her the bedroom he easily could have. Contacted her when his needs, need to be fulfilled, one way track. They have a loving relationship, I could have blown it away, caused conflict, demanding him to deliver my expectations of how a father parent. My DD since late teens has been working out their relationship, she understands his emotional struggles, that he's not there for her, her needs. He struggles to understand her challenges and BPD, he acts as a child playmate, peer. It's all on his terms. I often questioned if I did the right thing, I went with my gut, I allowed him to be the parent he is, could be, she understands his limits meeting her needs and he continues to be the child, she is now the adult.https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=67574.0

WDx

[Only Human]

Thanks WD 

I've just spent the better part of the last hour reading, reading, reading.

Today was a "good" day with communication with DD. She and GS are leaving tomorrow before I get home from work and will be spending the night at DD's friend's house, trick or treating with her friend and her friend's daughter. I'm looking forward to having the house to myself. It's been a very long time since that's happened here.

~ OH

[wendydarling]

That'll be a blissful evening, self caring   

Enjoy