Just learned about BPD.

[Jonthan]

A couple weeks ago I preemptively attended the parenting class mandated by the court system in Arizona whenever a divorce involves children (though I have not yet taken steps in initiating divorce, and my wife and I have not exactly talked about this in any sort of rational way).  After the class concluded, I made a couple of passing comments about my situation and marriage.  The instructor then asked a few questions and very matter-of-factly told me my wife has BPD.  He recommended I read "stop walking on eggshells". 

Yesterday I wrote a good portion of a letter that would present my wife with an ultimatum for recovery... .which will almost certainly result in divorce.  This morning I spent some time reading through old journal entries of mine, and the BPD is all so blatantly clear.  I wish I knew this much earlier.  My challenge now is that I don't see how I end this marriage without throwing my kids into an even more difficult conflict.  While I see now that the courts will almost certainly grant me equal time, there are several ways that scenario probably becomes worse than this... .particularly for the kids.  The difficulty with the current situation is that I sleep in the garage (have for years) and I'm being increasingly marginalized with my own children.  My garage is plenty comfortable—I don't need sympathy there—but I probably do need help navigating my way through what's best for our children.

I have for 13 years, in an attempt to avoid divorce, refused to so much as google laws relating to separation of assets and custody. I'm still piecing things together, but it seems increasingly clear that I have more rights than I thought... .and this is not actually my fault.

I've often noted over the years that my wife has been mad at me about 75% of the time. And I've told myself that the more functional 25% of the time was good enough to more than makes up for the hard times. I have long understood that conflict exists as a form of connection.  Until 8 months ago I walked that thin line (to some extent consciously) in participating in the conflict... .because a toxic connection is better than no connection.  But as her accusations of abuse have grown more irrational and brazen, I simply cannot afford even the smallest misstep.  Her response to my more recent withdrawal from the conflict has been perfectly predictable. She's now mad at me 100% of the time.

Learning about BPD gives me some glimmer of hope that it may be possible to change things enough to remain in the marriage.  While I haven't seen my real wife in quite some time, I still love her deeply.  The things I'm reading indicate that borderlines usually don't get better... .but some do.  I've figured out some few things about establishing boundaries and confronting family members or ecclesiastical leaders that would spend time validating irrational grievances.  I started seeing a counselor myself in about 2010 and I currently attend a session once a month.  I've consciously worked on self-care… but could do better.

What next?  I'll continue to learn… and piece together my plan for staying or leaving the marriage. I think this letter is mostly me trying to step out of the isolation I've been in for so long in going through this.  You guys understand better than I do where this forum fits in.  Maybe I need logistical advice and legal counsel.  Maybe I just need someone to say something else…  I really don't know.  Thanks.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[once removed]

hi Jonthan, and

im glad you decided to reach out. its good to step out of isolation, you dont have to do this alone, and you are in good company.

i hear that you still love your wife, and there is hope, whichever path you choose. should you choose to walk away, the Family Law board can really help you with logistics, and in the short term, it may be a good idea to talk to a lawyer to explore your options.

I have long understood that conflict exists as a form of connection.

it does... .the first step here is to learn about the ways in which we participate, and then to begin to change our steps in the dysfunctional dance. change can threaten the stability of any marriage, so its not uncommon for things to get worse before they get better.
 
tell us more about what is going on right now, the primary sources of conflict between you and your wife. what is she so mad at you about?

what boundaries are you trying to implement, and what has happened pertaining to the confrontations?

[Radcliff]

Let me join once removed in welcoming you.  You commented on the role of this board.  One of the most important roles that I've found is getting support as we work through learning the coping tools.  Reading a book is one thing, but figuring out how to make things better in real life can be discouraging, and progress comes in fits and starts.  Becoming a regular on this board is one of the best ways to stave off isolation and keep yourself moving forward.

What kinds of accusations is your wife making?

RC

[Jonthan]

Thank you both for the response.  I've been home with a cold since Friday... .and spent a good deal of time these three days reading and journaling.  I also started talking with my sister (whom my wife hates) and another friend who has in the past been through a difficult divorce with kids involved.  I've never before talked openly with anyone about these marital problems… as some early attempts just made things worse in stirring up her family and church leaders to cause more wedges between us.  Even with my own counselor, I've avoided talking about her.  There's a lot I still need to learn and do in piecing together a real plan.  While I'm still sitting on this precipice of divorce, there is already something of a new hope that things can in-fact change.

Yesterday, I invited myself along as my wife loaded up the kids to go over to her brother's houses... .and we had a pretty decent visit together with cousins and their new dog.  After getting our kids to bed, I went in to talk with my wife.  I did not try to force her to talk rationally about some issue… as I have done so many times before... .but instead tried just to talk.  I thanked her for having me come to her brother's house with the family.  I told her that I liked that she always does so well in decorating the house for holidays (Christmas is apparently here).  And there was some general chit-chat about our rental.  Early in the conversation, I asked her how she was feeling.  When she said she couldn't trust me with her feelings… we simply moved on.  The fact that I asked is maybe good enough.

As far as conflicts and boundaries… she blames and criticizes me for literally everything… Doing the laundry wrong. Including a few pieces of family laundry with mine. Selfishly doing only my own laundry.  Not helping with the kids. Getting in her way or doing it wrong when I am trying to help with the kids… Not caring about anybody but myself… and so on.  And she often communicates to me with messages through the kids.  And when I'm standing in the same room she'll talk the kids critically about me in the third person.  She has sometimes thrown away my things and then blatantly lied to me about it.  My boundaries are not great as I have relatively little leverage.  Raising my voice to intimidate with anger was the only thing to which she seemed to respond… but things got worse until I simply can't afford that kind of conflict without running into dangerous territory.  So I live in the garage, buy my own food, and try to maintain my sanity… often while she continues to bate me into conflict.  What I can do is refuse to cater to controlling behavior and to orders that she rudely barks at me.  I can insist on having my own vehicle and controlling my garage.  But even there, she has these little cutting behaviors like unplugging my appliances, hiding my garage door opener… and punishing me in other ways when I don't cater to her attempts to control.

It has always astounded me that this tyrannical and irrational side of her has been so unsophisticated.  In other words, she's incredibly smart and capable… but then she throws out accusations or lies that are so plainly obvious and unsophisticated.  My ten-year-old daughter loves her mother, but she also sees through the irrationality.  My 12-year-old son, on the other hand, is demonstrating a similar sort of irrational thinking.  His mom shows him a text conversation with the neighbors where she blatantly insults and attacks them, and all he sees is the part where the neighbor called his mom a hateful person (what was actually said was "why do you hate us so much?").  The two youngest boys (2 and 4) sleep with their mom most of the time, and they get this crazy separation anxiety and hysterically run for their shoes when mom is leaving to go to the store or something.  When they don't end up going with her, they usually calm down and do just fine immediately after she leaves.  

Most of this dynamics in my home has a flavor of the sort of normal ups and downs that I tend to believe is typical of most homes.  It's just so extreme in this one… and much of it certainly crosses a line and can in no sense be construed as normal.  Part of my task is in sorting out what is okay and what is not.  My head goes dizzy just thinking about all of it.  It helps tremendously to know there's a word for her kind of behavior and thinking… and that others have been through something like this as well.

I want to work out and do what's best for the kids, for my wife, and for myself.  I am not looking for someone to stroke my ego with sympathy about how hard I've had it all these years.  I do believe I still have some cards to play in figuring out what's best.  This week, I need to get my focus back on work, but I will stay in contact with this online community and start to make some progress in working through the skills and coping tools that others have paved through their own similar experiences. Again, thank you for the response.

[Radcliff]

The need for control comes from insecurity.  For both of you.  She feels insecure about the world and all her relationships, and struggles to control things so she feels safe.  Tampering with your garage environment is her way of reaching into an area that she can't control.  Likewise, you withdrawing into the garage is a flight to safety from an environment that has become unhealthy for you, and it sounds like a setup that provides you with some control and security.  Take a look at this article, ”Is Your Relationship Breaking Down?”  What stage would you say your relationship is in?

The good news, as you said, is that you have not yet played all of your cards for making things better.  One shift to make is learning how not to
“justify, argue, defend, or explain” (JADE).  Do you see yourself JADEing recently?  Finally, as you discovered, validation can be tremendously effective.

What are some ways that you can reach out and break your isolation from her day-to-day?

RC

[once removed]

When she said she couldn't trust me with her feelings… we simply moved on.  The fact that I asked is maybe good enough.

it is a good faith effort... .good faith efforts build trust. has she ever said that before, or explained why?

Most of this dynamics in my home has a flavor of the sort of normal ups and downs that I tend to believe is typical of most homes.  It's just so extreme in this one…

thats it in a nutshell for a lot of us. everybody argues about, say, the laundry, but for most couples it rarely goes beyond a few cross words. any source of contention, in the moment, can become a world war.

when she badmouths you in front of the kids, how do you respond, if at all?

what do your sister and your friend think?

[Jonthan]

I'm still mulling things over and learning... .being just several weeks since my first exposure to information about BPD. I need to move slowly and keep my focus sufficiently on work and other responsibilities. I'll continue to see my counselor once a month, and I'll continue to check in on this thread as I learn more. One step at a time.

-----------
In responding to questions: Our relationship is certainly breaking down… now largely in stage four as we distance ourselves more often than we fight. I spend much less energy JADEing, but there's still some.  It's also clear that my interactions in the past with my BPD wife have been quite invalidating... .and I've usually regarded validation from others as the problem... .as her family and friends feed her feelings of offense and her irrational thinking. Anyway, there's obviously plenty I can learn here in understanding the proper role of validation. 

Much of this has just gotten so stressful that it's sometimes hard to sleep, think, and to function effectively at work. Still, I'll keep taking steps forward in my efforts to:
(1) attend to self-care,
(2) come out of isolation,
(3) learn better coping and communication strategies in interacting with my wife,
(4) develop a long-term plan that's in the best interest of my children, my own mental and emotional health, and my wife's well-being. 

I know I can no longer try force or argue my wife into cooperating with the several helpful solutions that will always exist. But I do want to put her in a situation where she has the best chance of starting to take responsibility for her own decisions and her situation. The most frustrating and exhausting aspect of this whole thing is the ways she turns every situation into an opportunity to blame (usually directed at me) while at the same time creating conflict and refusing even the simplest cooperation.  She seems so irrationally consumed with seeing herself as a victim, while at the same time being completely blind to the real difficulties she creates for those closest to her. 

I want to negotiate clearly where my real boundaries can and should exist... .without reconciling myself too quickly to what may be obvious in needing to end the marriage.  With four children in the mix, I'm scared to death of making things worse.

[once removed]

Still, I'll keep taking steps forward in my efforts to:
(1) attend to self-care,
(2) come out of isolation,
(3) learn better coping and communication strategies in interacting with my wife,
(4) develop a long-term plan that's in the best interest of my children, my own mental and emotional health, and my wife's well-being. 

thats a solid plan, and youll need it. what steps have you taken? what steps are you taking?

validation is a powerful life skill, though i always stress that it wont put out fires.

validation connects us. builds trust, helps us bond.

not being invalidating can help fires from starting, or not put gasoline on them.

and then theres also validating the invalid, which her friends and family may be doing, or perhaps more aptly, just bad triangulation.

whats gone on in the past few days? how ya doing?

[Jonthan]

It's been a much better holiday weekend than most.  Honestly, putting a name to this (BPD) helps me tremendously.  It means I don't bother talking about facts, or responding to her version of facts.  It also means I can try to say something to validate her feelings in the middle of an argument.  She and I have a long way to go if we're going to make this work.  I myself have some progress needed in getting myself healthy.  At some point, she and I are going to have to start successfully making it through some of the arguments that actually matter.

The following are a couple of recent situations where I'm trying to negotiate the conflict and set boundaries:

(1) She wants to hold her friend's wedding reception in our backyard in February.  I said no... .because last time we hosted a wedding it was much more stress than I wanted as I tried to get the yard ready, and because she takes the smallest of disagreements about yard maintenance (my vines, the pool timer, composting, cutting my trees... .) and turns it into a power struggle that ultimately she wins.  In saying no to this wedding reception I'm not trying to punish or get even with my wife, but I legitimately don't want that stress, especially when I feel so marginalized in my efforts with simple issues like caring for my yard.  So I said no.

(2) I have for the previous three years helped our next door neighbors put up Christmas light on their house (I used to do lights professionally and I'm great on ladders).  This year, we're far enough into our relationship with the neighbors that my wife has been offended about something... .and has been extremely offensive herself.  Most recently, the attack came in texting the neighbor for speaking to her husband (me) after my wife told her to "leave our family alone."  In the neighbors discussing this with me, they admitted they want to put their house up for sell and move.  They're possibly a little sensitive, but the rudeness is palpable and it's unfair to them and to their kids.  So now I want to be neighborly all the more in trying to mend bridges with what I consider to be really good people... .but, I inevitably leave my wife feeling betrayed (choosing them over her) in doing so.  Hmm. What to do? 

What makes this more complicated is that I've told my wife that this year I will not be putting up lights on our house—just too much fighting, with her ultimately overruling me on things like the timer and when lights came down.  So this year she herself put up what lights she could around the porch and bushes... .and I tell myself it's none of my business when the lights are off at 8:00 PM. 

Earlier today I told the neighbors to see if they can find someone else to help with their light… and I'll take the chance to help them trim their trees again, as I have in the past.  So here I'm trying to stand my ground in continuing to cultivate friendship with the neighbors (trim their trees)… while attempting to avoid being too overt in rubbing the issue in my wife's face (doing neighbors lights while refusing to do ours).  Let me be clear in saying that our neighbors are themselves at least as eager as me in trying to do things to help us.

Anyway, it's so tough to figure out where to draw these lines.  One of the biggest challenges for me with the past 13 years has been the isolation I'm left with when my wife trashes relationships with people I care about (my family, neighbors, people at church).  She has her little home business with clients and her friends coming to our house almost daily… while and I don't feel like I can ever invite someone over.  My sister comes to town a couple times a year.  It hurts me that sometimes my sister doesn't bother telling me she's in town (too much drama) and when she does call, I feel like I have to go see her at a restaurant somewhere.  It's tough to know where to draw the lines in insisting on my right to cultivate and nurture relationships with people I love.  Negotiating these relationships for my kids is all the more complicated.

(3) Another recent issue with my wife is her wanting to get a dog.  The challenge is that about five years ago we got a dog… and then got rid of him two and a half years later, ultimately because my wife didn't want him anymore.  That dog now lives around the corner and is clearly happier than when with us.  Still, it's a roller coaster ride for me to pour my energy into something and then to have my wife assume absolute control… all while criticizing me viciously for everything I did wrong and everything I should have done but didn't.  So do I get her a dog?  It's her birthday Monday (so stressful) and all she wants is a new kitchen ($20k+) or a dog.  She already found out from the kids that I had ordered her a book that they told me she wanted… and tonight she preemptively told me to make sure I DO NOT get her a book.  So what do I do?  I think I give her the book anyway… and maybe a dog if she can be reasonable in involving me in the process.  And certainly no kitchen, not while I still consider selling the house in a divorce settlement.

Yesterday was a low conflict day—very rare these past nine months.  It was tarnished only in me trying to talk about doing the neighbors Christmas light.  I was not asking for her permission, but I did want to communicate my desire to help the neighbors without leaving her feeling hurt.  Her response was a tearful rant about how vicious the neighbor has been to her (100% projection) and how she now sees "how a mother could leave her own kids", and that she has wanted to just commit suicide because of how I and the neighbor have treated her lately.  Geesh…

Anyway, while it's been an unusually good few days… but the underlying issues remain… and we have yet to work through a single disagreement on something (even small) without her feeling betrayed and attacked.  If I can remain steady through these interactions, and find ways to validate her feelings (without validating toxic thinking), we can maybe make it through this.  One step at a time.

I still have a lot to read as I continue to learn about BPD.  I realize cognitively that I need to clear up my role as her primary support through this mental illness, without presuming to be her therapist.  I don't yet have that all figured out… and how or even if I play my cards in getting her to an appropriately qualified therapist.  I'm not sure.

One step at a time.

Thanks for your comments... .and for reading this.

[Jonthan]

.

This second post last night was by mistake while poking around with the "Excerpt" button.  I did meaningfully expand some few parts of my actual post from last night in my journal... .while proof-reading.  I wish I could go back and modify that post.  That may not be possible now, but let me know if it is.   

You know, I've written pieces here and there over the years in my journal about the ways my wife and I have struggled.  But I've always done so with trepidation as I carefully to try to avoid the sort of self-pity that leaves me worse off.  I've certainly never before talked about these issues through the lens of understanding BPD.  Now I can finally talk.  And I can do this with some notion of it being productive in (1) getting myself out of isolation, and (2) legitimately growing in my ability to navigate her psychology in ways that actually help.  Wow.

[once removed]

At some point, she and I are going to have to start successfully making it through some of the arguments that actually matter.

this is true. there are "squabbles" (for lack of a better term), the day to day stuff, and there is long term, perpetual conflict, that is going to require the two of you to get on the same page and solve together, if possible.

So I said no.

how did it go?

So now I want to be neighborly all the more in trying to mend bridges with what I consider to be really good people... .but, I inevitably leave my wife feeling betrayed (choosing them over her) in doing so.  Hmm. What to do?  

tonight she preemptively told me to make sure I DO NOT get her a book.  So what do I do?  I think I give her the book anyway… and maybe a dog if she can be reasonable in involving me in the process.

shes told you what not to get her, and you might get her what she has asked for if she behaves... .how do you think that might go  

I still have a lot to read as I continue to learn about BPD.  I realize cognitively that I need to clear up my role as her primary support through this mental illness, without presuming to be her therapist.  I don't yet have that all figured out… and how or even if I play my cards in getting her to an appropriately qualified therapist.  I'm not sure.

youve given us a good look at the conflict between you and your wife. i think there arent necessarily one size fits all, or even right or wrong answers to all of them. it may help, in terms of navigating, to look at it in a more general, big picture way, at how the two of you handle conflict.

every aspect of this takes practice. with the communication tools for example, most people fail miserably when first learning... .use it in robotic/foreign/awkward ways, deliver it in the most invalidating way imaginable, all sorts of things.

boundaries are another. we often feel things have been very unfair in our relationships, and its time to lay down the law, so to speak. we can over compensate, and it goes over like a ton of bricks.

what id like you to do, is have a read of this... .its one of my favorite concepts that ive learned (am still learning) here, and it overlaps with all the tools, and every conflict that we have: https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

read it... .reread it... and if you have any clarification questions on it, please ask.

what i think a useful exercise now and going forward would be, with the article in mind, to go back, look at examples 1-3, and tell us how they apply (not even necessarily what you should or shouldnt do) here.

[Jonthan]

what id like you to do, is have a read of this... .its one of my favorite concepts that ive learned (am still learning) here, and it overlaps with all the tools, and every conflict that we have: https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

read it... .reread it...

Okay, so I don't get to be a victim in all of this.  That sounds good.  But then I don't get to be a hero either.  My efforts to help her are not about me.  My efforts to help me are not about her.  I think I get it. 

So how's it going?  Mostly better… I think.  I certainly feel liberated.  It's absolutely wonderful how different it feels to know there's a path forward.  Yes, this is tough… but it feels like there's hope.

Regarding our three recent issues:

[3. her birthday and wanting a dog]  I took issue with her criticizing me for not doing anything for her birthday (victim and persecutor).  I don't need to rehearse the details here, but the criticism was not fair… and certainly not helpful.  So, when she found a puppy she wanted—six hours away and for almost two thousand dollars—I asked her to clarify my role in the process and told her I needed her be more gracious in receiving gifts from me before I could feel good about helping her get the dog.  Specifically, I asked her to give me a few ideas of things I could buy and do for her and for the kids for Christmas that she would actually appreciate.  Yes, I did too much over-explaining as we tried to talk about it a few times and I reiterated my request in a second, third, and fourth email response.  Ultimately, she came back to her position that if I have to put conditions on my gifts than I'm not really giving.  She did finally say she would give me ideas for Christmas but has not yet done so.  Even without her really responding to my request, I sort-of to myself settled on spending my Sunday (today) driving up to get her dog anyway.  The kids want one as much as she does. 

After another conflict last night… I again changed my mind and decided against the trip.  I did not need a twelve hour drive to spend two grand on a puppy just to have her still mad at me.  It's so tough going back and forth like this.  It's like I'm walking a thin line where I'm practically certain to mess up either way I turn.

[2. helping the neighbors with their Christmas light]  I confessed my dilemma to the neighbor and he said he and his son would try to do it themselves.  Saturday morning (yesterday) I put my long ladders on the side of his front yard and texted him some tips about where to start (their house is difficult/dangerous… recall that I use to do lights professionally).  At one point in the day, my wife moved my ladders back into our back yard, citing that I told her I would not help the neighbors without putting lights on our own house first (not exactly what I said).  Later last night, the neighbor text me a thank you and said they have decided not to put up their lights. 

Regarding lights on our house, I have been positive about all the decorations and lights my wife has done, but I still don't intend to put anything on the house. 

[1. saying no to her friend's wedding reception in our backyard]  One of my concerns was in being embarrassed at the poor condition of our yard.  My other, more important, concern was in me feeling controlled and marginalized in my efforts to care for my own yard.  Her response this week was to get a shovel and spend part of two days digging a trench close to 100' from one side of the yard to the other.  While she was working, the next door neighbors seven-year-old twin boys, and their nine-year-old brother, where yelling at each other while jumping on their trampoline.  My wife, in the bitter mood she was in, yelled over the wall for them to shut up or she would call the police.  I wasn't in the backyard when it happened but I did talk to her either before or after that where she chased me back into the house with bitter words about the neighbors being loud and me being in-love with them.

So I sent her another email… I wonder if I should just copy that here.  I know there is still too much explaining… but I guess I want her to have every possible chance to understand me, and I guess I want the chance to work out my position clearly, even if it's just for myself.

Anyway, I can see her half trying to be nice, and half failing at it miserably.  I see her wrestling with that inexplicable hole she seems to feels inside… and I see how she feels momentary relief in attacking others.  I know I can't expect this to change right away.  I don't want, as you said, for me "to overcompensate in setting boundaries, and have it hit her like a ton of brinks".  I want her to feel some success as she progresses in living with healthy boundaries.

So my questions here are:
   1. How do I help her feel success in living with boundaries?
   2. Where does professional counseling help in her managing this?
   3. What is my role in helping as someone who truly loves her and who truly loves her children?

I know I have no business doing anything from a one-up position as some sort of savior.  So I'll stand as close to that middle place as I can… refusing to play the victim, the perpetrator, or the savior.  Right now, this feels like a really narrow position, where I end up either over explaining or abandoning her without any explanation.  Yep, letting her flail around upset while I go live my own life feels like abandonment.  Geesh… my role in all of this seems so much more obvious through this lens of understanding BPD.  I guess I'll keep reading the Karpman Drama Triangle until I can feel settled in that middle position… and trust her as an adult in making her own decisions.  Because after all, the most empowering thing I could do for her is to extend that trust or vote of confidence in her capacities and her own goodness.  Dang… this is soo much better than the mature version of a pity party I've been throwing myself for years, while veiling it under the pretense of me somehow saving her (savior and victim at the same time).  I haven't done horribly bad, but there's no question I've bounced back and forth between these two roles… with plenty of defensiveness when labeled the persecutor.  Wow.

[Radcliff]

I'm seeing a few things going on here, and I apologize for dishing it up straighter then I normally might but I think it's better to just share some thoughts without beating around the bush... .

communication -- Are you e-mailing your wife, who you live with, to solve problems?  Getting into justifying and explaining things over e-mail?  Participating in 3rd and 4th responses?  E-mail is awful and escalates conflict.  Talk to the woman face-to-face.

false linkages and conditions -- Did you say you'd let her get a puppy if she gave you better info about gifts?  Don't link unrelated things.  Deal with things on their own.  You're making a false linkage when the real issue is that you're talking about bringing a living thing into your house and she wanted to get rid of the last puppy.  False linkages like this are acts of control and are detrimental to a relationship, as well as being ineffective.  Dealing with the puppy issue just on its merits, what do you think about a puppy in your house?

other thoughts
-- Wedding:  Your wife wants to host a friend's wedding.  I learned that my cautious approach to supporting my wife's endeavors around the house had a cost.  In some cases, she was rightfully upset that I withheld support.  Your refusal seems like you're obstructing her.  How much does she want the wedding there?  If it's a lot, let me suggest an alternate path.  Let the soon-to-be-weds worry about whether your yard is pretty enough for their wedding (let go of any embarrassment).  Then carefully agree with her exactly what you'll do to prepare the yard.  Write it down (not in a contentious spirit, but a "keeping promises" spirit).  Then do what you said you'd do and let any henpecking roll of your back, feeling pride that you're doing what you promised.  If she asks for changes, don't reject them out of hand, consider whether it's possible.  If so, accommodate, if not, tell her you can't add it.  What I'm describing is defining ownership and setting boundaries.

-- Christmas lights:  You like putting up Christmas lights.  You may not get to put up any this year.  It sounds like her objections to you putting up your neighbors lights are totally bogus.  Why not set a boundary and put up their lights?  Say that you really enjoy doing it, and it has nothing to do with not supporting her.  This is what I don't get -- you caved in to her about the neighbors, so you didn't get to put up their lights.  You refused to tolerate her about your lights, so you didn't get to put up your lights.  Why not compromise on your lights and hold your ground on the neighbors lights, and you get to put up a lot of lights?

My 30,000 foot impression is that you've got both the intellect and the backbone to make a huge impact on your situation, but you're being a little reactive in your decision making and could stand to identify your values and make sure your actions are lining up with your values.  Let me know if you think I might be close to the mark.

RC

[Jonthan]

communication -- Are you e-mailing your wife, who you live with, to solve problems?  Getting into justifying and explaining things over e-mail?  Participating in 3rd and 4th responses?  E-mail is awful and escalates conflict.  Talk to the woman face-to-face.

Attempts to talk face-to-face usually don't get further than my first point... .and I usually have several.  To me, emailing my wife is an alternative to not communicating my position... .or worse, trying to force her to actually talk with me through issues or disagreements.  Lately, with this puppy thing, she repeatedly has all four kids approach me asking if I can get mom a puppy... .and that I'm making her sad.  I confirm that Mom told them to come ask me, and then respond that I need Mom to come talk to Dad herself.

I'm sure I'm getting this wrong in some ways... .and I appreciate the candid perspective on where I could do better. I believe I'm doing more explaining than is helpful and would do well to clear up for myself where my needs are in being heard, and where I'm giving her information she actually needs in living with me.

Regarding false linkages and conditions... .I am trying to be careful in not committing something and then changing my mind.  The back and forth indecision is usually unspoken.  I would like to share here my latest request to my wife... .on these very issues, but I worry that I'm just groping for validation from people I don't know. 

Are you (RC) close to the mark?  Maybe, but I still sort of feel like I'm stuck in this impossible paradox where I'm wrong no matter what I do.

[Radcliff]

Of course you are wrong no matter what you do 

Yes, you are almost certainly doing too much explaining.  If you or I were working through an issue, we'd go through things logically and bang it out.  She is wired differently.  Facts don't matter.  It's all about emotions.  To make any progress, you're going to have to accept the fact that you can't change her.  You'll need to be able to listen to a woman who's calling you a jerk and warping reality, figure out what emotions she's feeling, validate them and calm the situation down.  You will have to let go of her understanding your many points, and patiently steer things over time in a direction that works for both of you.  This is a totally different way of thinking, very different than your and my natural mode of operation.  Are you game to give this a try?

RC

[Zakade]

Jonthan,

I'm new here as well, but I've been reading and listening to tons of things around BPD.  I feel your frustration with the issues involving your wife.  I have been in a lot of similar situations with my wife.  Learning to break out of "the dance" is hard.  I've been working on it for a while and I screw it up from time to time.  The important thing is to own your mistake, learn from it and try not to repeat it. 

One thing that I've been working on is asserting myself involving issues.  Since we fall more into a caregiver role, it can be hard to assert yourself.  I feel obligated to give in and give up depending on the topic.  So what I started doing was cautioning on the side of my own feelings.  For example, if you were torn about the dog, I would have considered her feeling about it but ultimately not considered getting a dog at all.  Here is the really hard part, tell her your decision but don't justify, explain, or engage in an argument with her.  If she keeps trying to drag you in, you may have to excuse yourself to a bathroom or remember that you need to pick something up from the store and leave that situation for some time.  Then don't bring it up again... .she might not though.  Then rinse and repeat.

There are no laws or rules that say you HAVE to explain yourself.  Don't do it.  It's bait for the dance.

Zakade

[once removed]

what drives a drama triangle is one or more participants need to be right. in conflict, we may be morally in the right, or the other person(s) may have behaved worse than us, or one or more parties wants the other to see their side of things, or... .

in that mode, though, it is hard to resolve conflict or escape drama.

Ultimately, she came back to her position that if I have to put conditions on my gifts than I'm not really giving.
... .
After another conflict last night… I again changed my mind and decided against the trip.  I did not need a twelve hour drive to spend two grand on a puppy just to have her still mad at me.

what do you think about her position?

she chased me back into the house with bitter words about the neighbors being loud and me being in-love with them.

it sounds like she feels you have sided with the neighbors over her. have you?

Geesh… my role in all of this seems so much more obvious through this lens of understanding BPD.
... .
Attempts to talk face-to-face usually don't get further than my first point... .and I usually have several.  To me, emailing my wife is an alternative to not communicating my position... .or worse, trying to force her to actually talk with me through issues or disagreements.

there are other approaches. often times we come in swinging and put our partners on the defensive. in these relationships, a lot of listening is usually necessary.

it sounds like the two of you are entrenched when it comes to conflict or talking through things. you both want to be heard. email seems to me, another way to achieve that... .to double down on your point in a way youre hoping she will better hear and cant poke through.

it would help to hear some examples when it comes to your approach (how you go about face to face discussions trying to resolve issues or disagreements) and how she responds, but there are lots of tools when it comes to shifting gears... .these just scratch the surface:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict
https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

[Jonthan]

I'm exasperated.  You guys already know that.  I want to tell you all the ways I've been offended and to have you feel sorry for me and tell me I'm worth loving.  There's also part of me that wants the legal and strategy advice for freeing myself from what so often feels like intolerable abuse... .without my children losing more than they can afford to lose in a contentious divorce.  So here I am, waving flags that invite the kind of responses we are all asked to avoid here on the "improving" board.  I haven't read anything on any of the other boards.  I'm scared to do so.  I don't really want to leave her.  I do still love her... .and I love our children.  I love them too much to put them through what would certainly be a living hell.  Right now, the kids are being used as her little saviors, but that's better than them being used as her perpetrators, and they at least still have some semblance of a steadying influence in their day-to-day lives.  Does this mean I have a savior complex?  What else am I supposed to do?  I'm their father.

So you tell me:

... .there are lots of tools when it comes to shifting gears... .these just scratch the surface:

That's encouraging.  So let's focus here.  Yes, I want to give this a try.  Yes, I would like to see my own codependent tendencies and to change.  But I also worry that I need to move slowly.  My focus needs to be sufficiently on my own health and self-care.

Right now I'm tired and I'm worn out.  My head already spends way too much time spinning through the injustices of it all and the accusations... .until I can't think while I'm at work... .and I'm usually stressed with an underlying feeling of panic that too often keeps me from sleeping at night.  I'm angry and I'm tired.  I'm committed to moving forward in making this better, but I need to take this one step at a time... .though right now it feels like I'm on an impossibly thin balance beam.

There are no laws or rules that say you HAVE to explain yourself.

That's a revelation and a relief.  This should save me some time and energy. 

I tried it tonight... .I told her I would not be paying for the dog.  It took forty-five seconds for me to tell her my stance, listen to her start the blaming, then say something marginally reflective of feelings she seemed to be feeling and to reiterate my stance. She said okay, and I walked away.  Now I just have to figure out how to follow through when she's already made a deposit and is paying the guy extra to drive the puppy down here.  She has choices.  I have choices.  My head is spinning... .but I'll get a grip and settle down.  I don't want to be a "boundary beater".  I can be happy to have a dog in our house, but I'm not happy being nothing more than a financial resource to her while I sleep in the garage and am marginalized in every other way possible.

The emails have been part of the ongoing debate for years.  They are well written and articulate and give me great satisfaction in my ability to be rational.  But she doesn't care about my explanations.  In fact, they are probably smothering her.  So I'll stop.  I tried that earlier this morning... .I went in and we tried to talk about something face-to-face.  Forty-five seconds later, she's pouring out mean and irrational statements while I get increasingly defensive.  In years past, it would escalate until I'm pounding her with angry, but articulate and rational, words.  She would then emotionally curl up with this sort-of passive-aggressive satisfaction that she really is a victim.  I believe that it has been my withdrawal from the anger and the fighting nine or ten months ago that has moved our relationship into such an unsettled place.  But I can't go back to that.  So after three minutes of it this morning, I told her I see things differently and that I don't appreciate the criticism... .and I stopped talking.

I do have reasons, and the backbone, to work through this.  One step at a time, please.

[once removed]

I'm exasperated.  You guys already know that.  I want to tell you all the ways I've been offended and to have you feel sorry for me and tell me I'm worth loving.

it may not always sound this way, but we do understand, and appreciate what you are going through, how hard all of this is, and that generally speaking, these relationships are not fair. while experiencing that, being told where we have room for improvement can feel like a big pile on of that unfairness. it is exasperating. and while we do focus on where we can improve our relationships on this board, newer members especially, are given a wide berth to vent. if you need to do that, just tell us.

But I also worry that I need to move slowly.

you do. too much change too fast isnt good for a relationship, or either party individually. these tools, this conflict resolution approach, seeing our role, changing our behaviors, all of this is a lifestyle really, not something one adopts and masters over night.

My focus needs to be sufficiently on my own health and self-care.

it does. you really cant have the former without that, or vice versa.

So after three minutes of it this morning, I told her I see things differently and that I don't appreciate the criticism... .and I stopped talking.
... .
One step at a time, please.

its a good step. what comes next, in terms of your health and self care?

[Jonthan]

what comes next, in terms of your health and self care?

Probably putting in new lighting and insulation in my garage.  Having the mental stillness I need to get seven hours of sleep consistently.  Taking some time to exercise.  Opening myself up socially.

I do appreciate what this forum is offering.  I don't think I need to vent... .just admitting that there's a piece of me in here that's hurt.  Saying that is enough.

I will continue to dialogue about where we're going.  Being mindful of my role in the drama triangle, the appropriateness of me learning to validate feelings, and being given permission to decide things without explaining... .are all something of a paradigm shift. I know I still have a lot to learn... .and that's encouraging.

[Jonthan]

Yesterday, my 11-year-old daughter was to be recognized in an award ceremony for making the honor roll at school.  When I said I would try to leave work to be there, my wife told me I should not come and insisted that if I went she would not.  My daughter then spent half the drive to school begging me not to come… so that her mom would.

This evening, my daughter complained that I spend more time with her brother than I do with her.  I asked her if I freed my schedule would she want to go climbing with me.  After saying yes, and after adjusting my other activity (Youth group at church with my 12-year-old son. He could go without me), my daughter than changed her mind and refused to spend time with me.  She instead insisted she wanted to read in her room alone.  What hurt most was when my daughter rushed out to go with my wife to the store.  I stopped her from going and we argued for a bit.  She's a stubborn young lady… the kind that refused to be controlled since she was old enough to talk.  My arguing tonight was not in getting her to give in, but in my trying to avoid the message that this, me spending time with her, didn't matter to me—it does.

I'm perplexed at why all four of our kids universally choose their mother over there father.  It's particularly strange when our two little boys (two and four years old) start screaming hysterically and scramble to grab their shoes anytime their mom walks toward the door to go to the store.  When she doesn't allow them to go with her, they calm down as soon as the door closes and are then satisfied to be with me.  Is this typical?  Is there an explanation that can be read.

I do see plenty of my wife using shaming, bribes, threats… of various sorts… to control the kids.  At her worst, on two occasions with the older two children, she verbally threatened to disown them.  It makes sense to me that the instability of that relationship would leave them walking on eggshells and eager to please and comply with her every wish.  The fact that I am not manipulative, that I'm careful to assure them of an unconditional and underlying acceptance and love, would seem to make it safer to be dismissive with me.  I have been careful not to ask them to choose between their parents… and have literally given them permission to side with mom when faced with those choices anyway.

It's hard…  and my twelve-year-old son, in particular, has started to argue and to criticize me with the same irrationality as his mother.  My daughter is more rational… but even just tonight, in me citing her having said she wanted to go climbing and that she said she wanted to play chess with me, she insisted that my memories of the facts were delusional and that I need to learn how to listen.  It's hard.  It's hard when our toddler will give me the silent treatment because his mother is mad at me… or when he says "I not love you. I love mommy."  Why?

It isn't always like this with the kids.  Absent the drama with my wife, I do have good connections with each of them.  My daughter and I, in particular, have always connected well.  Most of these difficulties have been this year… after I stopped losing my temper and fighting with my wife.

So, am I venting here?  Or am I really looking for solutions?  Maybe it's both…  These interaction with my kids really are the crux for me.  Earlier this fall, I told my wife I would divorce her if she interfered with my relationship with our oldest son… and I sort of meant it.  But that's the thing with BPD, threats like that tend to escalate the very behavior they were intended to stop.  I see the difference (or I'm beginning to) in this last month and a half.  Boundary setting is not about changing her behavior.  The focus is on quietly taking responsibility for mine, and allowing her to do the same. 

These last two weeks have already shown obvious signs that things are changing.  I've noted in the past that my wife has typically been mad at me 75% of the time, and since about last February or March, she's been mad at me 100% or the time or more.  Well, these last two weeks, it's suddenly maybe only 60% of the time.  I realize I we have a long way to go… that I could blow this easily.  The bad times are still quite scary… but something is certainly changing. 

My biggest concern now is maybe the issue of "intermittent reinforcement".  I know I'll get some of this wrong… but how can I do it right enough of the time, and consistently enough to have this work?  Ironically, it has been in reconciling myself to the possibility of divorce that the lights have started to come on.  Is that safe to say on the improving board?  I don't want divorce… but I do need to continue to remind myself that there is a line… and that my wife has the ability and the right to make her own choices as well.  If we do work this out and heal, it will be because we both chose to do so.  Remembering that can help me be steady with the boundaries I do set.

My second biggest concern is in going too far and becoming a "boundary beater".  I try to remind myself that she and I are equals and that I want to see her best interests every bit as much as mine.  In that sense, there's no room for boundaries that are punitive or overly reactive. 

Still, I figure she and I may very well separate our finances.  That has been a huge moral no no for me in the past… but, I told her I would not be paying for the puppy… and I actually feel really good about her choice to get the puppy anyway.  It almost feels like seeing a teenager start to make their own real-life decisions.  Even when choices are poor you can't help but root for them in having the courage to make choices.  The puppy isn't a poor decision, but she did marginalize me in the process.  The fact is, my wife, has an income (about 25% of our household total) and she has for a long time campaigned to have her income kept separate.  Her thinking there is that it's the man's job to provide financially… we should be able to live on my income alone… and she should be able to use her income for her own extras expenses and vacations.  I don't agree with some of that, but maybe this wouldn't be so bad.  Like a teenager coming into their own, I like the idea of my wife being left to manage her own money.  I also really love the idea of her not being able to pressure me not to eat out or go to the grocery store for myself (I'm somehow supposed to pack lunches from the groceries she buys, or just go without… all to save money for her kitchen remodel.  Last year, when I spent half of my hard earned but unexpected $25k bonus to upgrade from the $2k car I was driving, she was incensed at my selfishness… and punished me hard… all while failing to recall that the nicest vehicle we have is still the upgrade she got just six months earlier.).

So, do I drain the accounts?  Of course not.  Do I slowly sneak my portion of our money somewhere else?  No, I don't.  I can keep things clear and moving towards this with all the cards above the table.  She does have a vote in this… but the scenario of separating funds may not be that terrible for either of us.  I can be appropriately responsible, and even generous, in how I manage my income, and still fare better than I would in an actual divorce.  She will have to participate responsibly in some household expenses, but will certainly fair better than she would in an actual divorce.  There is also the potential that this creates a little more interdependence in us needing to communicate, however briefly, about finances.  It certainly can't be worse than the zero communication we have had… and her refusal to participate in basic accounting and budgeting.  As an engineer, I have been so frustrated by this… and I end up piecing together her information from bank statements and business records she tries to hide from me.  Do we file taxes together?  If she's willing to be honest with me about her income, sure.  And I expect she would... .as I handle myself well enough in fostering cooperation through this.  My efforts will be to avoid the message of abandonment while asserting the message that I will be responsible for my own decisions and my emotions.  I am not willing to be controlled and marginalized in my efforts to provide responsibly for my family.  Can I do this without boundary beating? I hope so. 

Things will hopefully be okay with the kids.  It's been a really hard six months to a year.  Lots of really scary struggles… with them being used to hurt me.  I'm doing my best to be steady… and to not punish them for mistakes that are not theirs. I do love each of them.

Thanks for listening.

[once removed]

I'm perplexed at why all four of our kids universally choose their mother over there father.

its a complex question. part of it is biological... .we tend, especially the younger we are, to favor our mothers. this can change... .i favored my dad as he shifted into the primary role of buddy, for several years. part of it is the ongoing dynamic.

you read the karpman drama triangle... .this is an example of how it might apply in a family system:

https://thebowencenter.org/theory/eight-concepts/

So, am I venting here?  Or am I really looking for solutions?  Maybe it's both…  These interaction with my kids really are the crux for me.  Earlier this fall, I told my wife I would divorce her if she interfered with my relationship with our oldest son… and I sort of meant it.
... .
threats like that tend to escalate the very behavior they were intended to stop.

this is not likely to change over night. divorce will complicate the dynamic, whether it can be helped or not, and whichever you decide on, but its never too late to make a difference.

My biggest concern now is maybe the issue of "intermittent reinforcement".  I know I'll get some of this wrong… but how can I do it right enough of the time, and consistently enough to have this work?

good boundaries are a lifestyle, and, it depends a lot upon whether you intend to divorce or improve the marriage.

I don't want divorce… but I do need to continue to remind myself that there is a line… and that my wife has the ability and the right to make her own choices as well.  If we do work this out and heal, it will be because we both chose to do so.  Remembering that can help me be steady with the boundaries I do set.

all of this is true.

My second biggest concern is in going too far and becoming a "boundary beater".  I try to remind myself that she and I are equals and that I want to see her best interests every bit as much as mine.  In that sense, there's no room for boundaries that are punitive or overly reactive. 

and this is a solid approach.

Still, I figure she and I may very well separate our finances.  That has been a huge moral no no for me in the past… but, I told her I would not be paying for the puppy… and I actually feel really good about her choice to get the puppy anyway.  It almost feels like seeing a teenager start to make their own real-life decisions.  Even when choices are poor you can't help but root for them in having the courage to make choices.  The puppy isn't a poor decision, but she did marginalize me in the process.  The fact is,

the fact is the puppy is a good metaphor for the way the two of you approach conflict, and the fallout that results. are you thinking about doubling down on that approach?

I can keep things clear and moving towards this with all the cards above the table.  She does have a vote in this… but the scenario of separating funds may not be that terrible for either of us.
... .
There is also the potential that this creates a little more interdependence in us needing to communicate, however briefly, about finances.  My efforts will be to avoid the message of abandonment while asserting the message that I will be responsible for my own decisions and my emotions.
... .
I am not willing to be controlled and marginalized in my efforts to provide responsibly for my family.  Can I do this without boundary beating?

it is a move one makes when one party is an irresponsible/impulsive spender, or when one is considering divorce. there usually arent good ways to go about it. my dad was an impulsive spender, and while he and my mom pleasantly agreed she would by and large manage the finances, he went around that in all kinds of ways. you have a bit of both here... .what are your thoughts?

[Jonthan]

the fact is the puppy is a good metaphor for the way the two of you approach conflict, and the fallout that results. are you thinking about doubling down on that approach?

I admit that I don't really understand.  On one hand, I am setting appropriate boundaries and demanding to be respected [i.e., "You cannot (1) threaten the neighbors and (2) criticize me for not getting you anything and then have me spend significant time and money to get you a dog. I will not pay for the puppy."]  On the other hand, I am a floor mat constantly trying to please her while she criticizes me for not doing it right and picks fights with the neighbors.  What am I not seeing?  Where do I have room to change my approach? 

I admit that I sort of see this as an either-or decision.  I either double down on boundaries I've attempted to set or I give in and back off on my boundaries. 

The long-standing pattern in our relationship has been in me trying to demand respect while she continues to marginalize me further.  My best shot at me answering here my own question is in seeing that on both sides of the either-or, I'm probably doing too much… being too hard, and too soft.  Somehow I'm too demanding, often times with expectations that are not practical or fair to her (though they may be with someone not having BPD), and I'm at the same time too much of a pushover with weak boundaries that I allow to be violated.  Somehow, I should be able to both improve in setting appropriate boundaries that are respectful of my needs, while showing consideration and a willingness to sacrifice in meeting her needs.  That sure sounds good on paper.

Tonight, I messed up in that I tried to talk to her about the puppy thing… to tell her that I wish she would have changed her approach to better involve me in the process.  I wish that she could just say: "I'm sorry for blowing up with the neighbors.  I will try better.  I do want to be a team with you and to gratefully receive the puppy as a gift from you.  Thank you for how hard you try to do nice things for me.  I'm sorry that I don't always make it easy." ... .but instead, she doubles down and tells me she can't count on me for anything and has to do things herself.  Attempting to have a conversation about this is certainly a mistake. 

... .but I so badly want to tell her where she hurt me.  And, in doing so I take us right back into the drama.

Soo… I should just keep my mouth shut, accepting that she chose to get the puppy without me… and smile when tomorrow she pays the guy $400 more than I had arranged to pay last weekend when I planned to drive up and get it.  I understand that having a conversation with her about this is a mistake.  That if my need is in being heard, I should find somewhere else to meet that.  I understand that I should be able to see past the specific injustices of a given situation and find ways to validate her feelings… to somehow be positive and supportive about her choice to get the puppy.  What I don't really understand, is where I can be more effective in asserting my boundaries.  Do I let this one incident spin us straight into separating finances?  Do chalk up the decision to separate finances to several previous incidents, this one being only the most recent?  To her, it would probably be seen the same either way—me being unsupportive and unwilling to help her.

I think part of my reason for trying to talk to her tonight was also that I do want to stand my ground… to double down and refuse to pay for this… and I'm somehow covering my tracks so I can say, "I told you this was coming. I told you you should have tried to work with me rather than pretend I don't exist."

So I admit that I started an argument this evening to (1) validate my need to be heard… or my role as the victim… I'm not sure if there's a difference, and (2) to give her fair warning as I sort of try to double down in setting firm boundaries.

In writing this down, it all seems so immature.  But, if the puppy issue is a microcosm for how she and I approach conflict, I'd like to understand it.  The lesson I do understand is that I don't need to try to dialogue with her about things like this, that doing so undermines my ability to be supportive and validate her feelings.  The lesson I don't quite get is regarding how I can be more effective in setting boundaries.

I have some thoughts also about my relationship with my kids (continuing the earlier topic) but we'll save that for later.  Your comments thus far have been helpful.  Thank you.

[Zakade]

I hope this doesn't come across as mean.  I'm only putting this out there to help nonBPD like myself.


I do understand the confusion you are having regarding your internal conflict.  I'd like to try to parse this into smaller pieces.  I may make it easier to understand.  First and foremost, you are not in the wrong for bringing up the puppy.  You disagree with what she thinks and that is a very health thing for you to do as long as you were calm, regardless of the outcome.  I would say that the important part is that we can't control how people are going to respond.  I think it's great that you confronted the problem even though it may felt like hitting your head against a wall.

So let's talk about her and not being able to control her.  You still have choices.  For instance, you can tell her that you are against the puppy so if she chooses to go against your wishes without talking about it calmly that you will not support her regarding the puppy.  She is responsible for training the dog and you refuse to clean up after the dog in any way, and then do that.  That doesn't mean you should ignore the dog or not protect the dog if she is violent punishing the dog but explain the ways specifically you are not supporting her regarding the dog.

to somehow be positive and supportive about her choice to get the puppy.

Why?  If you're not happy about the dog and she won't listen then why do you need to do either.  Hear me that I'm not saying you rub it in her face either.  When she protests about you not helping, you simply reiterate what you have told her about not support her decision regarding the dog and that you meant it.  She may get mad but again we can't control others.  You can excuse yourself if she continues on a tirade.  

Do NOT mistake validation for agreement.  They are not the same thing.  I think that this may be a part of your confusion right now.  The important thing is that we can only say what we feel and other people get to choose how they respond whether positively or negatively.  Do some more research on how to be validating without agreeing.  Maybe some other people have some suggestions for you.

If you can not get mixed up in the dance, then I would see that as progress for you.  The more times you confront and not dance is a win in my book.  That means not getting mad and not allowing them to treat you bad and push past your established boundaries.  Sometimes it's good to think about what you want before you engage the other person.  

The other responsibility that we have as nonBPD is choosing our words extremely carefully.  Some of the statements you shared were accusing by using the word "you" in it.  That is most likely going to be taken as blame and accusation.  We need to find different ways to express the same thing and that can be hard.  

For instance, "You cannot threaten the neighbors."  Yes she can, that is totally her choice to do that.  A better way to say it might be, "When you are threatening toward the neighbors, I feel embarrassed and sad."  You have expressed yourself in a positive way even if she doesn't do or react the way you wish she would.  The difference here is that you are not telling her what to do.  You are stating a fact about what she did or could do and how that makes you feel.  What happens is when you constantly reaffirm this, she will have a harder time projecting her defensiveness onto you.  Do you see how this seems trivial but it makes the statement completely different?

[once removed]

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

I am setting appropriate boundaries and demanding to be respected
... .
my boundaries. 

this is at the heart of the karpman drama triangle, and an approach that fuels conflict.

at the heart of the karpman drama triangle, and most irresolvable conflict, is the need to be right. about "our boundaries". about "our values". about "they disrespected me".

we may be right, we may be wrong, we may be somewhere in between, but it doesnt resolve conflict. if you want to save your marriage, it will require working to get out of this mode.

youre fighting your wife for power. before we can make things better, we have to stop making them worse.

on the puppy matter, specifically, this approach effectively says "you get nothing from me unless youre nice/do what i ask". you also changed your mind a few times in the process. if one were to parent a child this way, one will have a rebellious and resentful child.

Ultimately, she came back to her position that if I have to put conditions on my gifts than I'm not really giving

reasonable? unreasonable?

[Jonthan]

youre fighting your wife for power. before we can make things better, we have to stop making them worse.

Yes, I am fighting my wife for power.  I see that and I accept that it isn't working.  Moving my position further in one direction or another while maintaining the same approach generally isn't really a change.  I guess I have some deeper things to learn about boundaries.

Excerpt
Ultimately, she came back to her position that if I have to put conditions on my gifts then I'm not really giving

reasonable? unreasonable?

The struggle for me has been that my gifts never seem to be enough.  I want to be more effective in doing things to help her... .but it's always a slippery slope that ends in me being blamed and criticized.  I struggle specifically when she criticizes me for things I do to help.  When I choose to withhold my support, her words are like water off a duck's back.  But, the frustration of those situations where I have given myself to help her... .only to have it thrown in my face... .is more than I can bare.  Much of the anger cycle for me over the years has been exactly this... .
1-  I put forth effort to help her. 
2-  She rejects my efforts... .controls and criticizes me about the very thing I tried to do to help.
3-  It hits a nerve and I erupt into anger and try to force her to be rational.
4-  We both withdraw (... .probably both validated in our victim self-image.)
5-  She eventually makes it easier for me to come close (though usually hint-dropping and complaining rather than requesting).
I try again to connect... .and the cycle repeats. 

Things have changed in that I'm much more careful about investing myself in areas where I'm likely to feel offended by her criticism.  The prospect of being criticized for my involvement with this puppy (or lack of involvement) is much less threatening when I don't invest a 12-hour drive, significant money, and my emotional support.  With the dog we got five years ago, I have been criticized repeatedly for buying that dog for myself (she's looked it up, found it, and asked that we get it)... .and for being controlling in how things are done with him (insisting that we treat him like family... .not leave him home when it is feasible to bring him).  It hurt me to get rid of him... .and I've since been criticized for doing so.

So, yes. I think it's reasonable that my willingness to give gifts is in some sense conditional on her willingness to receive graciously... .to at least try to treat me fairly and to withhold criticism.  If for no other reason, than out of practical consideration for my limitations.  What I very much don't want is to return to the anger cycle.

I am optimistic that I actually do have something to learn here... .that this doesn't have to be an either-or situation where I'm fighting for power.  I understand conceptually that the struggle for power isn't really necessary when I'm clear about not being controlled... .and clear in not attempting to control her.  I think I just have little experience actually doing this.

The other responsibility that we have as nonBPD is choosing our words extremely carefully.  Some of the statements you shared were accusing by using the word "you" in it.  That is most likely going to be taken as blame and accusation.  We need to find different ways to express the same thing and that can be hard.

Yes, I can practice being more conscious of how I choose my words.

These strategies are important... .but I think I'm struck most by Zakade's signature line.
 

What you are shouts so loudly in my ears I cannot hear what you say. - Ralph Waldo Emerson

I do have progress to make in confidently controlling my own life.  This is basically where I care to focus on self-care.  Perhaps there's a dual focus here in (1) learning interpersonal strategies, and (2) becoming a more complete or self-assured person.  It's obvious that I'm awkwardly stumbling forward... .Still, I do very much care to see this improve.

Thank you for your thoughts and comments.

[once removed]

The struggle for me has been that my gifts never seem to be enough.  I want to be more effective in doing things to help her... .but it's always a slippery slope that ends in me being blamed and criticized.  I struggle specifically when she criticizes me for things I do to help.

i dont know the specifics here, but this is a very common sore spot in marriages. husband wants to help, wife gets annoyed by how (or that) husband tries to help, husband is scolded, husband feels rejected and hurt. or wife asks for something, husband does his version of it, wife is frustrated, feels husband didnt listen, husband is clueless.

i saw it plenty between my parents, and between my dad and myself too. for example, id be cooking something, and hed come in and mess around with it, because he loves to cook, or hed take my food out too early. or hed cook something with ingredients that my mom hated, shed realize it and protest, hed tell her theyre not even noticeable/you cant even taste it. in all cases, he was "only trying to help".

smaller examples there, and more protracted conflict in your case, but same principle. as men, we dont always listen well, we interfere/get involved, and we are dumbfounded when our help is unwelcome or we "didnt do it right". everyone likes to help, and everyone likes to be right. everyone likes to be acknowledged for it.

that is part of the issue here. you struggle with criticism and your wife scolds. so at this point, you simply dont want to do anything, lest you be criticized. youd like some good will, appreciation, graciousness. otherwise you aint touchin it. right?

yes, there is a middle ground. often, we have to lead things there.

[Jonthan]

Right. I'm unwilling to expose myself to too much criticism in certain areas.  Yes, my efforts to help are often insufficiently sensitive… but we're also talking about a deeper inability she has with receiving.

Remember that someone with BPD is struggling with some sort of worthiness hole that refuses to be filled.  She has always been sensitive around her birthdays.  I've heard her talk about being a kid and having her birthday get swallowed up by Thanksgiving… where she ends up forgotten at the kiddy table while relatives don't even know it's her day.  This year she told me a dozen times not to get her anything for her birthday—this is typical.  My son and I ended up getting her chocolate and a Christmas rose plant.  In trying to talk about my need for her to be more gracious, she then told me it wasn't really a gift because I didn't actually hand it to her, but just left it on the counter… and that it's not really a gift because I know she hates plants.  The night before her birthday, she got out of bed to find my daughter and I putting up streamers and the birthday sign we use for the kid's birthdays.  Rather than allowing our daughter that simple pleasure, she got mad and took it all down with some explanation about how I was being inconsiderate.   

Yes, I'm happy to focus on learning better listening skills.  But what we're dealing with here is not normal. 

I also feel some hurt in that last January, she literally did nothing on my birthday… not so much as a simple kind word or a happy birthday.  She just happened to be mad that day and didn't want to talk… or she forgot completely. I was busy enough at work to be happy to just see it over with, and I lament only that I didn't do something to make it special for my kids.

So, I realize I've got plenty to do in learning how to listen and truly hear her.  Understanding her tendencies as an actual mental illness removes much of the frustration for me and helps me better focus on the stuff that is real—pretty much just her feelings.  Still, I also need to make significant progress in setting boundaries that are fair to my emotional limits and my needs. 

I think a lot of this may be the tiny wins I have each time I succeed in stating my truth clearly without engaging in a debate about it. 

If you can not get mixed up in the dance, then I would see that as progress for you.  The more times you confront and not dance is a win in my book.  That means not getting mad and not allowing them to treat you bad and push past your established boundaries.

I did that once yesterday… when she was explaining to her mom why her cousins should not be allowed to come over for Christmas dinner.  I simply said that I see the facts differently and that I prefer that everyone be included.

The puppy came... .  Still not sure how exactly to respond financially.  I'll do my best to avoid extremes, to focus on these little wins… and in seeing where I can take better care of myself.  I've not done well enough there and that needs to change. 

[once removed]

So, I realize I've got plenty to do in learning how to listen and truly hear her.  Understanding her tendencies as an actual mental illness removes much of the frustration for me and helps me better focus on the stuff that is real—pretty much just her feelings.

Jonthan, id be careful in going down this road. i dont think the particular things you are describing here sound like mental illness, and that can be a fast road to just dismissing the valid things she says, or anything you disagree with.

you sound pretty entrenched in your perspective, conflict style, and solutions as you see them to improving your marriage.

i think if you want to save it, its going to require some openness to a different style, a willingness to learn, and an attitude that lets go of being right (if only for now), and can begin to understand her perspective even if you disagree with it. this approach is just causing you pain and frustration, straining your relationship, with no sign that things will get better without a very different approach.

are you up for that?

[Jonthan]

id be careful in going down this road…
you sound pretty entrenched in your perspective…
i think if you want to save [the marriage], its going to require some openness to a different style, a willingness to learn, and an attitude that lets go of being right (if only for now), and can begin to understand her perspective even if you disagree with it. this approach is just causing you pain and frustration, straining your relationship, with no sign that things will get better without a very different approach.

Hmm... .  Maybe I don't understand. 

Things have already started getting better these past few weeks... .which I attribute wholly to me learning that she's got BPD, and can therefore not be expected to behave rationally... .or be particularly amenable to a healthy connection.  I have in past years poured loads of effort into trying to figure out how to get her from irrational to rational.  Now, I understand more clearly that it's not going to happen... .particularly in me trying to make it happen... .in me trying to make her change.  And yes, I've had grievances that justify me ending the marriage (her financial infidelity, alienating my family from our lives, criticizing me to my children, actually telling me to leave... .).  She's a difficult relationship.  But, regardless of the past, I have choices to make about how I want to move forward... .and, for several reasons, I want to do what I can to make it with her. 

Are you suggesting I'm too flippant in my diagnosis of her as mentally ill? Or too encroached in my perception that I'm not?

There's a piece of the anger cycle I described yesterday that bares clarifying.  When she does make it possible for me to approach her with attempts to connect, my interaction has often been in overwhelming her with my own neediness. This is particularly obvious surrounding physical intimacy.  I'm either cut off completely (almost always), or I'm pawing at her body trying to be touched.  That tendency to overdo it... .translates to a lot of areas.  That's my issue.  How do I address it?  I go see a therapist and we talk about my daddy leaving as a kid... .  I did not show up to this marriage healthy.  This is a two-way street.  I get that.

Eight or nine years ago I read the book Facing Love Addiction (https://gloria.tv/article/4ToEU9t9mRAHD4zG2ZkekLTMu).  What I learned didn't fix me but it really helped.  I went from completely frustrated and confused to being able to see and perfectly predict my own tendencies and role in creating conflict.  I'm nowhere close to fixed... .but I have made significant change.  She has her space without the threat of me smothering her with neediness.  I do take responsibility for my own needs without mopping or guilt-tripping her about it.  I have refrained from exposing or venting about her challenges and shot-cummings to anyone (though the anonymity of this online forum presents a new option in me opening up).  Fights with her have scaled back from what bordered on madness to a muffled aggression that has served, more than anything, to break the ice... .to give her something to forgive.  Yes, that's still a toxic connection... .but to me, it's been better than no connection.  At least that was the story up until ten months ago.  At that point, I reconciled myself to stop fighting, regardless of what that leaves us.  Needless to say, the last ten months have been insane.  Even so, there's no going back now ... .and I almost believe this could actually work. 

I am interested in continuing to see and address my own tendencies toward codependent toxicity.  I have been as honest as I know how about where I really am on things.  I don't need my ego stroked, and I am certainly interested to see where my approach can be improved.  I get the principles conceptually (or at least I think I do) and I know I'm doing it wrong more often than not.  Still, I come back to a pretty straightforward focus on (1) learning strategies for interacting with BPD, and (2) getting a handle on my own self-care.  Yes, this involves breaking free from any notion of myself (or her) as a victim (or savior).  Yes, it involves learning to better define my values and assert boundaries.  Yes, it involves learning to validate her feelings.  The appropriateness of validation is a totally new one for me... .and I admit I suck at it.  Still, I'm already finding small ways to ignore the literal meaning of her words and say something to reflect her feelings.  Again, I suck at this... .but I can learn.

I wish she and I could butt up against differences, personal insecurity, fear, and struggles (mine or hers) and just talk and support each other through whatever it is.  But that's not possible when the response to every difficulty is to blame and criticize.  At least it hasn't been possible in the past.  Maybe I can, in chalking her behavior up to a mental illness, take some assurance in believing that she doesn't actually hate me... .she just talks like that when she's feeling imperfect.  Maybe I can toughen up myself and hear a little further than the verbal attacks and start to see her feelings... .and who she really is behind the abrasiveness.  Maybe I can figure out how to be happy myself in something of an imperfect but stable marriage, and provide our children with some semblance of the foundation they need in growing into emotionally normal adults.

What am I missing?  Am I floundering around but generally on track… or is there something fundamentally twisted about my approach? 

In reading my previous posts, there's clear evidence that I am quite invalidating of her perspective… her way of seeing things.  And maybe I then use the BPD diagnosis to validate my view that she really is crazy… so therefore I'm not.  I think I'm satisfied with that.  It sure takes the edge off some serious frustration.  When she talks about wanting to commit suicide in response reading a moderately defensive text message from a neighbor who is clearly trying to make amends… the BPD diagnosis seems pretty useful.  I don't need to rub any of this in her face.  I have never mentioned mental illness to her, nor do I expect that to ever serve a purpose.  Randi Kreger's book laid that out pretty clear.  What else am I missing?

This weekend has been useful… but, with a busy week at work, I'm going to try to keep myself away from this until next weekend.  One step at a time.

Thank you again for your comments… and for the opportunity to dialogue through this learning process.