Conscience issue and BPD

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

My uBPDh has told me several times that he suspects his brother of murder. It's a case of "finishing off" their mother, who was terminally ill and sleeping in a public part of the house because she was too weak to go upstairs to her bedroom. Her heart was failing, and her lungs were filling with fluid, so when she was found dead one morning, nobody was surprised. This was over 20 years ago, long before my H and I became involved (but I always knew his family, literally from birth).

The last person to be with her, as well as the person who said he found her in the morning was my H's older brother. Very creepy guy, but my H looked up to him and hung out with him and his icky friends when they were teens. They were both in their twenties or thirties and living at home when this happened; their father had already passed away. Their mother had insulted the brother on that last evening—she was very abusive. Then after her death, he was acting out; he kicked down the door of a gf or ex-gf when she would not open up. He also wanted my H to call 911 rather than doing it himself. My H suspected that he suffocated her with her pillow. It would be in character. But he told no one. Scared, maybe.

It's a burden to my conscience to have heard this from the H, yet not be able to notify authorities because it would be pointless after so many years. In addition, my H would be upset with me if I did. The H is estranged from all his siblings, none of whom are "nice people." There was another older brother who had threatened him with guns and beaten him up, who eventually committed suicide. That brother must have made the sneaky one who may have "finished off" their Mom look like an angel.

Would the BPD make him think his brother did something that he really didn't? Or is it more likely that the BPD kept him from reporting a crime when he should have?

Finally, what can or should I do about this? I honestly wish he had never told me this. I was fond of his mother while growing up, but I found out later, mainly from him, that she was a very disturbed person (her own father had died while committed to a mental hospital). As I have related on other threads, I am not currently speaking to him; we are at an impasse and I am taking stock.

[SweetCharlotte]

My uBPDh has told me several times that he suspects his brother of murder. It's a case of "finishing off" their mother, who was terminally ill and sleeping in a public part of the house because she was too weak to go upstairs to her bedroom. Her heart was failing, and her lungs were filling with fluid, so when she was found dead one morning, nobody was surprised. This was over 20 years ago, long before my H and I became involved (but I always knew his family, literally from birth).

The last person to be with her, as well as the person who said he found her in the morning was my H's older brother. Very creepy guy, but my H looked up to him and hung out with him and his icky friends when they were teens. They were both in their twenties or thirties and living at home when this happened; their father had already passed away. Their mother had insulted the brother on that last evening—she was very abusive. Then after her death, he was acting out; he kicked down the door of a gf or ex-gf when she would not open up. He also wanted my H to call 911 rather than doing it himself. My H suspected that he suffocated her with her pillow. It would be in character. But he told no one. Scared, maybe.

It's a burden to my conscience to have heard this from the H, yet not be able to notify authorities because it would be pointless after so many years. In addition, my H would be upset with me if I did. The H is estranged from all his siblings, none of whom are "nice people." There was another older brother who had threatened him with guns and beaten him up, who eventually committed suicide. That brother must have made the sneaky one who may have "finished off" their Mom look like an angel.

Would the BPD make him think his brother did something that he really didn't? Or is it more likely that the BPD kept him from reporting a crime when he should have?

Finally, what can or should I do about this? I honestly wish he had never told me this. I was fond of his mother while growing up, but I found out later, mainly from him, that she was a very disturbed person (her own father had died while committed to a mental hospital). As I have related on other threads, I am not currently speaking to him; we are at an impasse and I am taking stock.

[Cat Familiar]

Wow! Have our paths crossed somewhere many years ago in the rural South?

I heard a version of this story--three brothers--two ended up incarcerated for other crimes. And the "good brother" apparently wasn't too concerned about the ending of this elderly woman's life and thought it was sort of a "kindness" that she passed quickly. And apparently a pillow was involved.

Hearing this, shocked me to the core. My "California values" were quite offended that some young man would choose to end a woman's life in this way. I still recall the cavalier attitude of the "good brother" so I suppose it indicated a very different value system than the one I hold--that it was more like "releasing her from her suffering."

To me, it is a very slippery slope. However we treat our beloved animal friends this way--or at least some people do, and I have moral qualms about that, except in cases of extreme suffering.

As disturbing as it is, I'd chalk it up to a huge difference in your value systems. Nothing can be done about this now and disclosing it to the authorities would open up a can of worms.

[Cat Familiar]

It certainly couldn't be the same people because the woman who died was the grandmother, not the mother. But a curious similarity is that the oldest brother was the worst of the lot and he died young--perhaps it was a suicide--I don't remember.

[SweetCharlotte]

Cat Fam, this did not happen in the rural South, though my name comes from a Bette Davis movie set in that kind of locale (Hush, Hush, Sweet Charlotte — a classic of gaslighting and the Southern Gothic). This is the urban North.

Also, it was no mercy killing. If he did it, it was pure revenge for her verbal abuse, and the thrill of control over another person's fate. As I mentioned, my uBPDh suspects him in part because the Mom lashed out at him verbally just before bedtime. Then, my H (many years before we became involved) went to bed, and in the morning, his older brother wakes him up urgently, saying, "Mom's dead! Call 911!" Why didn't he call himself? When H went down and saw her, he thought that the pillows looked disturbed. Although she looked peaceful, he didn't think the placement of things was what he had seen the night before. His brother left the house quickly and went to his gf's house (a phony gf, because he is primarily gay) and kicked down the door when she was too scared (apparently) to open up.

Another chilling aspect is that this "sneaky" brother works as a nurse in a hospital. Some of the most prolific serial killers ("angels of mercy" who are anything but) have this occupation. He seems to fit the profile—he wanted to have the power of life or death over another human being, in this case taking the life of the person who gave him life, but who also contributed to his misery. It's true that she was dying, but she wanted to live (she was only 70). Imagine how horrible it must have been for her to have a "loved one" smother her. IF he did it. I guess we will never know. H should have reported his suspicion immediately. He was always a wimpy sidekick for this brother, vicariously taking part in his transgressions. They are close in age, and with the psychopathology in this family, there were no boundaries.

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi Charlotte,

This must be a very disturbing thing for you to have to process. It sounds like a scene straight from the TV show Shameless... .but without the dark humor element.

I agree with Cat that there probably is nothing that could be done this many years later. Possibly the suspicions of your h are correct, or possibly they are a product of distorted memory and perception.

I think your question is how could someone have these suspicions and not have acted on them, and whether or not that is related BPD as a matter of having a conscience about it.

I think the fact that your h told you about the suspicions suggests that it is still on his mind all these years later, whether it's grounded in truth or not. So I would suppose that he does have a conscience about it. Not acting upon that conscience may be an inability to accept responsibilty, not for the crime itself but just for the responsibility of reporting suspicions.

Perhaps he was afraid of what would happen if he was correct, and his brother was arrested. Perhaps he was afraid of what would happen if he was incorrect, or if no one believed him, or it couldn't be proven.

Even people without BPD have failed to report actual crimes because of the dysfunctional relationship between the witness and the perpetrator.

It's a very unfortunate and tragic incident, but I don't think you should feel a sense of responsibility for the knowledge you have now. I agree with Cat, there aren't enough solid facts to warrant opening the can of worms.

On the other hand, if this brother's patients start dropping suspiciously, I would definitely say something.

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

[Red5]

I had a similar experience… but it was my udxw’s foo.

We had been dating for about six months, she had moved here from the great state of Ala… she had divorced her first H about three yrs before, and she told me that she was blessed to be back in her home town after living away for over twenty yrs, as her first H was in the military…

It was the night after T-giving, her entire foo, and my three teenage kids (I was a single father divorced at that time)… we had all been over to the S#2’s home for T-giving dinner, I had only met her foo father once before, he was extremely overweight, and had meso-theli-oma…

I was still the “new guy”… there was a lot I did not know yet, or understood yet about udxw’s foo… but I was listening to the other two BIL’s… “yeah dad needs a drink, and a smoke, they won’t stay much longer”… I was like ? ‘what’… I thought to myself [he shouldn’t be drinking whiskey or lighting off a marlboro in his condition]…

Long story short, the next day at work, my land line rings, and it was my gf/s2bw (undxw) on the phone in hysterics… “he didn’t make it”…

Apparently, he (foo dad) had expired during the previous night, or early morning… the story was; he had gotten up from bed, and collapsed, and could not be picked up, or revived according to gf/s2bw (undxw)…

One of the BIL’s (BIL#1) lived close by, and was called to the house to help get “dad” up off the floor, as s2b MIL was in no way able to lift him… BIL#1 reportedly attempted CPR, but to no avail… the story is that the bambulance was then called, but as they lived way out in the county by the inland coastal, the crew could not find the house in a timely manner (?), so dad expired there lying on the floor.

What do I think, knowing what I know now, some ten yrs downrange…? I think he was “let go”… the story about lifting, and non-observable street signs… and a lost bambulance crew is to me bravo sierra… verses what I have been told about the history of the foo.

*MIL tried to sue the county EMS for “malpractice” for not getting there fast enough?
*GPS was standard equipment back in 2007, so what the heck over…
*And there was indeed no observable street signs out there back then, this is a HOA issue, not county EMS.

My belief is… that dad was allowed to expire, then the call was made, first to BIL#1, then the bambulance crew was called.

Lots more to the story, but this is what I think, in accordance with my own “gut”, knowing what I know now, and what I have observed over the last decade of udxw’s foo.

Crazy stuff!

Red5

[Notwendy]

Looking at it from both possibilities- he may or may not have hastened this woman's death.

Let's assume he did not. If you report this and reopen the case, he could face a trial, court expenses and jail time, and lose his job, and all the while be innocent. This would cause great harm to him. If he is doing this kind of thing on the job, there would be other cases and this would be discovered. This is not your moral dilemma to wonder at, but his employers. I assume someone on the job would be concerned about suspicious activity. Raising a suspicion about something you do not know could possibly cause an innocent man great harm.

Let's assume he did. There may not be any way to know this 20 years later. The body would probably be so decomposed that proof of murder might not be detectable. Since there is probably no way to prove this, I don't know if it would lead to anything or be of
benefit. He'd have to go through possible jail  and court, but there may not be any way to convict him.

Morally, one has to consider benefit and harm. It may cause more harm than good to bring this up 20 years later. This is at least how I see it.

[Cat Familiar]

If the coroner or attending physician did not see bruising and signs of airway restriction at the time of death, certainly that would not be visible over 20 years later.

Obviously your husband has struggled with his conscience for a while. There are many reasons that he might not have reported his suspicions about his mother's death at the time and he might regret not doing so.

This is a place where boundaries are your friend. You'll never know exactly what happened that night and if his brother is not leaving behind a trail of dead bodies, perhaps it was a one-off, or perhaps she died due to acute pulmonary edema.

Regarding Red's FIL, I did ambulance ride-a-longs for my EMT credential (which I've let expire) and lots of times we couldn't easily find the address. EVERYBODY--GET ONE OF THOSE OFFICAL HIGHWAY SIGN MARKERS WITH YOUR ADDRESS NUMBER ON IT--YOU WON'T REGRET IT IF SOMEDAY YOU NEED IT--YOU CAN'T ALWAYS COUNT ON GPS

[SweetCharlotte]

Thank you, all. This is truly healing. Every once in a while, especially when uBPDh and I are on the outs, I start to feel guilty for not reporting. Once I put it on a different kind of message board, and a law enforcement type said, report it. No ifs, ands, or buts. Let the system do its work. However, a more measured approach is probably wiser.