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Author Topic: Help with BPDgf giving me silent treatment PART 2  (Read 993 times)
itsmeSnap
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« on: November 14, 2018, 07:37:07 PM »

This is a continuation of a thread on my situation here [https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=330740.0]

Making a new post because there's a lot of details back there and it can get a bit overwhelming to follow.

Anyway:

So around Halloween I had been having a very good time with an undiagnosed BPD person (we'll call her M), we discussed a relationship and were on good terms talking and doing couple stuff.

One day she just shut down on me, after saying she would be going out to have drinks and a reply from me she went no contact.

So that was a bit over two weeks ago. I finally managed to reach out to her via a coworker of hers (we'll call her S because lots of coworkers in this story).

I had though that my response to her drinking had been what triggered her to withdraw, it turns out one of her coworkers, J had to change jobs and she was feeling under.

Interestingly enough it seems that it was a combination of factors, S (who reached out for me) told her I had messaged her to ask how M was, she lied and told S I was J, the coworker who had left. S told me so and was so weirded out when I assured her I couldn't possibly be J, S would have recognized me right? they worked together so no way that would have slipped past her (I am indeed not the leaving coworker J, just for the sake of clarity haha).

It was weird to hear S say M was upbeat and talking about me like I was someone else, after the mixup S said there was no way M didn't recognize who was asking about her and she was sure M lied to her face.

S and I talked for a bit about M's situation, S seemed tense, turns out M had been lying about a lot of things, including some particularly serious stuff (that could cost her job and even her home), I was not entirely shocked because I know a little about BPD and how it manifests but S was understandably not having any of it (they are not really close, probably because of this). Of course S never said anything to anyone because she had no way to prove it, M would just lie her way out of it she thought.

S said M had been hanging out more with B recently, another coworker (married man) since. I told her why it could have been that way (abandonment issues from J leaving) but she brushed it off as more of her lies, though it seemed to affect her since it all "kinda made sense" and B is a trusted person at work and she seemed concerned that him dealing with M like that could cause him trouble at work.

Anyway I'm still trying to make sense of it all. At least I don't feel responsible anymore for triggering her which I was so worried about, even though I was a bit distant from her.

Funny thing is in my previous post I commented on how I had a very paranoid moment where I thought she was lying to me about the relationship. Turns out it wasn't about me or the relationship, she was lying about her own life. Not in any obvious way like to S but she withheld key information even when all the surrounding details matched up.

Turns out my gut feeling was justified, I just couldn't figure out why exactly until now.

M still hasn't reached out to me but she now knows I tried to contact her.

Anyone had any experiences with lies? I know the way is to call them out without confrontation, but I don't want to have to play detective every time I talk to her. I know its ok to have secrets but M could have told me about J leaving so I could comfort her about it, she just said she'd go out for drinks I had no idea.
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« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2018, 07:58:13 PM »

I know about the lies you speak of. For a BPD, lies are tied to their emotions. To justify their emotions, they create a story to fit the intensity of that emotion whether it's real or not. For them the emotion is real and that's all that counts.

The outcome of those "lies" are an after thought just as long as they what they want. You should tread lightly when someone is in this stage.
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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2018, 10:36:33 PM »

so, M is telling S that you are the former coworker who left (J). do i have that right? why do you think shed tell S that? no possibility of a miscommunication/mix up, right?

Turns out it wasn't about me or the relationship, she was lying about her own life. Not in any obvious way like to S but she withheld key information even when all the surrounding details matched up.

can you elaborate?

Anyone had any experiences with lies? I know the way is to call them out without confrontation, but I don't want to have to play detective every time I talk to her.

i think we need more detail about these lies. there are several letters of the alphabet talking to each other about each other here, and a lot could get lost in translation. im not sure any of it explains whats going on between the two of you.
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« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2018, 02:02:20 AM »

Excerpt
so, M is telling S that you are the former coworker who left (J). do i have that right? why do you think shed tell S that? no possibility of a miscommunication/mix up, right?

Yeah you got that right. M told her that because it was the easiest way to brush it off since she just kept talking about it as if it was true, S actually got confused and believed her. After I assured S I was not J (again, impossible she would have noticed it, I hadn't met her before this) she freaked out a bit and said "she can't tell the truth, everything that comes out of her mouth is a lie. She's incapable of telling the truth because she's caught in an enormous web of lies" and proceeded to blurt out more lies she's told (the career and home endangering stuff I mentioned).

Interestingly enough M never lied directly to me, she would simply not provide the details. Everything checks out, as in, that's why I couldn't catch her in a lie when I was struck with the gut feeling (no more calling it paranoid moment, it was justified).

There was no outright lie, I just didn't have the whole picture. Lied by omission you could say.

Excerpt
can you elaborate?

The obvious lie she's told everyone was the home and career endangering stuff, she is missing some immigration requirements but would tell everyone she's got them. When I asked her about it one time (long ago) when we were planning something she just told me she had some travel limitations because she couldn't be away from work for too long, now I realize she would not be able to go back to work because she wouldn't be able to produce the "requirement" on our way back.

In my previous thread I wrote that after a very good day we had, at night I had the sudden feeling that she was lying to me.

I seriously thought she was someone else, as in "identity theft" someone else, then I thought maybe she's seeing me and someone else (maybe a few other people) at the same time, and it also crossed my mind that maybe she was lying about our plans for the future.

None of those "suspicions" had any merit, I fact checked every one of them according to the info I had at the time and it was (still is) all a solid narrative, no way she was lying, but I still had the gut feeling she was not telling the whole truth.

Excerpt
im not sure any of it explains whats going on between the two of you.

After talking to S I realized J apparently was a closer friend than M had told me and a bit of a flirt with her, M told me about him and I told her to be careful he might have ill intentions (the tone of the "flirts" was more like catcalling).

Anyway when S told me J had to leave it kinda clicked that she might had been feeling "needy" and "sensitive" because of perceived abandonment from him. Even though they weren't dating (that I know of) I'm sure she liked the attention/validation B and J had been showing her (she mentioned them often) but I'm pretty sure she saw them as friends (I've heard the term "favorite person" while reading about BPD, like a sort of non-romantic but still intense connection with the same abandonment issues/cycle as a romantic partner).

That's why I consider that gut feeling justified now, I knew something was up but I couldn't have possibly guessed what it was without more info from her, now that S told me more about her situation I realize what had happened.

So long story short, M (the gf) was feeling needy, she demanded my attention (got upset when I didn't answer her messages for a few hours) and was probably sensitive that I didn't comfort her about her going out drinking. I think this was her "rescue me" moment as she was feeling under from having "lost" J and since I wasn't as "supportive" as she expected she probably felt like I'd leave her too and so she preemptively cut me off.

So far that had never happened (the "neediness"), not this time, not on any of our "breakups" before.

She still hasn't contacted me but it struck me as odd that even when S told her I had messaged M lied to S and told her (convincingly enough that S believed a physical impossibility) that I was someone else.

Why would she lie about that? I know she's avoiding me and it helps her cause but wouldn't it had been easier to just say "I don't know him" or "he's just some guy I met"? M saying that I was someone S knew made it particularly easy to catch the lie even though S believed it at first.

So point is she never lied to me (that I could catch) but would lie extensively to other people in her life.

Anyway she's obviously avoiding even acknowledging that I exist.

My question then is if she contacts me again should I even bring this up to her? I need her to tell me if she was feeling upset about something so I could maybe do something about it.

Now that I'm writing this I realize I should have asked her if something was bothering her instead of just assuming it was me being distant. I did sense something was up and didn't act "correctly" on it.

Anyway and what about her lying? I know it seems weird since she never outright lied to me why this would be an issue, but just knowing that she'd do it to others makes me a bit concerned that she might turn it on me or the people around me if we got together.
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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2018, 10:28:41 PM »

The obvious lie she's told everyone was the home and career endangering stuff, she is missing some immigration requirements but would tell everyone she's got them.

there is a lot of heightened fear right now in immigrant communities... .could it be that shes fearful to disclose too much? or am i missing something?

So long story short, M (the gf) was feeling needy, she demanded my attention (got upset when I didn't answer her messages for a few hours) and was probably sensitive that I didn't comfort her about her going out drinking. I think this was her "rescue me" moment as she was feeling under from having "lost" J and since I wasn't as "supportive" as she expected she probably felt like I'd leave her too and so she preemptively cut me off.

are they that close? that doesnt strike me as a reason to ignore your efforts to be in contact. when shes cut off contact before, what was the reasoning, if any?

My question then is if she contacts me again should I even bring this up to her?

which part? that she referred to you as J?
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« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2018, 02:17:47 AM »

Excerpt
there is a lot of heightened fear right now in immigrant communities... .could it be that shes fearful to disclose too much? or am i missing something?

You wouldn't even wonder about her status unless you asked her or it came up in unrelated conversation so its more of a convenience thing for her more than fear, but she is aware of it being an issue. Since everyone believes her or just assumes its fine she just goes along and tells everyone its fine and she's got everything she needs.

For me its not an issue in itself, I realize it is a delicate matter and part of why she moved around so much is to get away from her dysfunctional family, more the fact that she would tell others the "lie" outright but not me, she would just kind of brush it off and not go into detail.

Excerpt
are they that close? that doesnt strike me as a reason to ignore your efforts to be in contact. when shes cut off contact before, what was the reasoning, if any?

I wouldn't know how close they were, she mentioned J and B a couple times, almost like baiting me into jealousy (she has done that before with other people). Previous times she's gone no contact has been related to her insecurities (I'm too good for her and related) and I guess this could be true here, but there was always an outside stress that set her insecurities off (a trip to visit family, the holidays, moving to a new place, a medical problem/surgery) so that's why I suspect this "minor" thing could have been the reason.

What can I do when these things happen in her life? I kinda feel like I have to read her mind to preempt the crisis before her using the "exit strategy" to relieve the pain she "expects" (as in, she believes I'll leave her) when something "bad" happens, even when it is relatively foreign to our relationship. (edit after writing: yeah this is my problem to solve, apparently I need more effective communication skills instead of resorting to "figuring it out by myself", who would have guessed simply asking the person is a hard thing to do)

Excerpt
which part? that she referred to you as J?

yeah that but I don't know I just find it odd how she lied to her coworker more than the lie itself, like I said I know she's ignoring me and its convenient to just not acknowledge me but S described M as so invested and so sure of what she was saying that S actually believed her.

I can't actually articulate what my problem is with the whole situation I guess. I still have a feeling there's something I'm missing and want to talk to her to find out but obviously I can't. (another edit after writing: probably should have done this before she cut contact with me).

I know none of this makes much difference on the fact that she has not made contact yet and there is not much I can do other than wait for her to reach out again, but like I said in the previous thread: Understanding the issue surrounding the "crisis" is important to me so that I don't make the same mistakes or at least get a grip on the reality of the situation and not lose myself in the "it was all good until it was not, what happened?".

I really don't want to just ignore what happened and move on when/if she contacts me again because now I know from reading the forum it could be 20+ years of the same if we cannot resolve the issue. I know it can take those 20+ years to see progress but I am trying to figure out a roadmap to it I guess.

I know I should be more receptive to her "neediness" and "rescue me" situations as the way she communicates something is wrong. Now I also realize I should have just asked what was wrong that she felt "needy" in the first place.

Then again I know I will "slip" occasionally if we become long term, how to handle it when it almost inevitably happens again? just wait it out?
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« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2018, 09:53:20 PM »

In truth if you're not marriage, you don't need to wait 20+ years for a result. There are so many triggers for BPD people that you must go through each one to need how to battle each problem. So you might have to experience each one.

Don't go in to a relationship that's not establish trying to seek results. If you're the only one working at the problem that's not good. If you're trying to fix a problem and not having a quality relationship time, then it's not a relationship.

You shouldn't be trying to figure out if someone lying to you constantly. No one deserves that. A relationship is built on trust and honesty.
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« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2018, 11:28:58 PM »

Hi Hart_Payne

Excerpt
There are so many triggers for BPD people that you must go through each one to need how to battle each problem. So you might have to experience each one.

Yeah I understand that, I'm willing to give it a shot.

Excerpt
Don't go in to a relationship that's not establish trying to seek results. If you're the only one working at the problem that's not good. If you're trying to fix a problem and not having a quality relationship time, then it's not a relationship.

The thing with me and M is that when things are good she seems reasonable, open to change and overall making "progress".

I remember after one of our "breakups" I had her promise she'd be nice to me, she tried to bargain with me (as in, she told me "not if you do something stupid"), I stood my ground and said "promise, no excuses, you have to be nice to me" and she has never been outright angry at me again, she even commented on how she was being extra nice to me.

Maybe she doesn't realize it made a difference, but I can notice she is desperate for a change but like you said, I have to deal with one trigger at a time.

As far as the relationship goes it is dreamland until it's not, and the nots are usually short before she cuts contact (the no contact period is neutral since i usually just go about my life) so there is "quality" in a relationship with her.

Excerpt
You shouldn't be trying to figure out if someone lying to you constantly. No one deserves that. A relationship is built on trust and honesty.

True, but the fact is that she lied to others, not to me. It seems I also don't fully trust her either if I still have lingering feelings of deception or withholding even though everything she's told me checks out.

This is why I keep posting here, for my own growth and to help me take responsibility of my side of the relationship. I realize it may not work with her, but if I don't deal with the underlying issue the next woman who comes into my life will cause the same "problems", so either way I will keep trying to get better.

My guess is our problem is more a communication issue, I realize everything I feel like doing now that she's cut me off I could have done before this happened, so maybe next time I'd be more proactive instead of reactive, like when I told her to be nice to me before anger took her over.
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« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2018, 01:22:32 PM »

Read articles online about why BPDs lie. And on how to deal with manipulation from BPDs. And try to figure out the root cause of her BPD... .abuse, CEN, that is a leg up in predicting the next trigger and/or outburst.
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« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2018, 09:38:37 PM »

referring to you as her coworker is odd.

im not sure i see where it or his leaving connects with the circumstances.

what we know is this:

Things were really good until later that day she told me she'd go out for a drink (beer was her choice) because she'd been having some stress lately and to look out for her drunk texts because she might sound needy, I told her she could text me anytime, I'd have my phone close by. she did text me later saying she didn't think it was a good idea going out because she had to spend money and she was very cheap.

I think I made the mistake of not comforting her about it, told her to take small sips of the beer or to order a stronger mixed drink if she wanted to feel the buzz for less, she might have taken it to mean that I was indeed acknowledging she was cheap which was not my intention, I wanted her to have a good time on a budget, she hasn't talked to me since then.

you told her to take small sips or order a stronger drink, and she went silent, even blocked you; an extreme reaction.

was there more? it would help to know what has led up to the cut offs in the past.

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« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2018, 12:01:44 AM »

Excerpt
was there more? it would help to know what has led up to the cut offs in the past.

Not really, she said she had problems with her roommate/ex and went to a neighbor (her "new grandparents" she called them, older couple friends of her, she has worked with them occasionally) to spend the night to get away from him, we talked about him cheating on her and another previous cheating boyfriend she experienced, it had been some time before that so she said it was fine to talk about and she was just annoyed he kept being controlling with her (wouldn't even let her talk to his friends when they would come over, she had to stay in her room).

we had a good day then after I told her an experience I had with a cheater "friend of mine" so we could both relate, we talked about other things which I don't really remember but it was more upbeat.

The day after is when she wanted to surprise me after work, everything was ok that night, we spent a good time together.

The next three days I had been busy/distant, she demanded my attention but she would seem to be ok every time when I explained, up until that last text and that was it.

I know I keep saying it this way but it seems to me that she truly fears that I would cheat on her or I'm too good for her or something.

The first time she broke contact because she was "being unusually chatty and cute" with me. Seriously.

Next time was when I got her favorite chocolate for christmas, sent her the picture and I'm too good looking, asked her about it, she couldn't articulate and would deflect, no contact.

Another time when she went to visit her family she used the exact words "you're too good for me". Here she went and had sex (or at least thats what she said) with a "friend" of hers and told me about it, we weren't serious at the time but I did get mad and I broke contact.

I had a rough patch so I contacted her again, she was moving back after her failed canada thing, after a few days talking I was "too nice to her" and I don't remember what happened but she broke it off.

Can't exactly remember the order of these so I might have been inconsistent with a previous post but the events individually did happen. I might be missing a few others too.

It seems like when things are "good" her insecurities are triggered, she does something to spark an argument and either she got mad and broke it off or I did because she did cross the line.

I sound like I'm blaming her for this, I'm really not, but as far as I can tell this is happening.

The thing is that being "too good for her" doesn't work, so it's not like I have to work on my interactions with her being invalidating I don't think. I also don't think I want to be mean to her to fill the "chaos quota" she might be subconsciously expecting (she said she hopes we're not chaos together so I don't think she'd want that either)

No contact yet, after reaching out through S last week and what happened I'm not trying again for at least another month. maybe she'll reach out over the holidays, she said she wouldn't be visiting family this year.

I know M's fine, S said M was working same as always and hanging out with B at work but after work so no danger from the trouble she had with her ex. she's active on social media, just not talking to me.

Thoughts?
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« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2018, 10:34:18 PM »

sometimes people give silent treatment, cut people off, threaten breakups, or breakup, as a means of getting their way, or getting attention.

do you think that might be going on here?

it doesnt sound like you do a ton of chasing typically, and eventually hear from her without much mention of whats gone down. that might be an indicator.
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« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2018, 02:34:08 AM »

Hey once removed, thanks for following up with me, really appreciate it 

Excerpt
it doesnt sound like you do a ton of chasing typically, and eventually hear from her without much mention of whats gone down. that might be an indicator.

Thing is I do most of the "chasing" while she's in a good mood and she responds well to it, then something happens and she gets mad and/or cuts me off. I still haven't been able to piece exactly what that is, but before it always "made sense" why she would cut me off, especially when she got mad at me I did engage the rage so to speak and would push her further into it.

One time she got "triggered" and said I didn't know her mean side and started getting dismissive with me, so I told her fine let her evil self out I want to meet her, if that's the "real M" I want her to see that I can handle it. Interestingly enough she did try to keep herself together but I realize that time I kept pushing it until she cut me off.

That's the sort of thing I mean when it sort of "made sense", I tried to argue the why she was being mad with me (it was always trying to get her to see how me being too good or her being too "cute" with me could be a bad thing, it was a recurring issue) and she never could point it out, only once or twice did she actually say something implying she was not good enough for me and she feared I might find someone else.

She did mention it a few days before she cut me off this time, saying how she'd be sad if I was talking to other women, I assured her that I was only seeing her but I would keep talking to female coworkers and friends (I was sort of preempting the slippery slope of "but you said you wouldn't talk to other women, why are you talking to the cashier" sort of situation). M said she didn't mean it like that but she got it and was ok with it, we had a few good days before her silence.

Excerpt
sometimes people give silent treatment, cut people off, threaten breakups, or breakup, as a means of getting their way, or getting attention.

This makes sense as I was being a bit distant those few days, maybe that's why she seemed so upbeat when she told her coworker I was someone else; I kept trying to reach her after she cut me off so she got her way.

After she cut me off I did try contacting her every way I could, blocked everywhere. Had she left me on "seen" or something I might have kept trying but yeah I'm not going for extremes, it can be dangerous and she knew there are things I wouldn't do, she even asked me how far would I go.

We agreed on a couple of things then including that if I ever felt her "resisting me" I would not continue. She was talking about sex and I did get that but I made sure she knew it was in general as well.

The week before she cut me off I made sure I gave her every opportunity to choose her ex over me, I felt it was odd how she was still living with him even after his "I cheated on you and I did X and Y to the girl" (she said she was so upset and crying and yelling at each other the neighbors called the cops to check on them, it was bad) and still be on a "nickname" basis with each other (then again she's also on a nickname basis with B at work, we never had nicknames for each other interestingly enough), I told her about it and she just brushed it off.

I told her I needed her to make that choice and I would probably keep giving her the choice to leave (I mentioned she tries to get me jealous, I guess this was my way of "calling her bluff" on it) and she would always pick me and I would shower her with affection whenever she did. I do accept that I need that validation from her picking me over anyone else, it didn't seem to be an issue because she always looked so certain that she wanted me whenever it came up.

If the cutoff had been just a few days prior I would have thought as she just made up with her ex, no big deal I did gave her the chance, but she told me she had an issue with him that she had to spend the night with the neighbors, we talked about it and she said she had another apartment available to move to, she seemed excited and working to have her own place so she could have me over. Every day after that incident we had good interactions (three days at least), the last few days I was busy and I know she resented that because she did seem upset that I didn't have time for her.

I now know that her "going out drinking and probably get in a fight" situation was her way of getting my attention and I responded like I didn't care much, I know now she felt abandoned because of it. I guess it was the straw that broke the camel's back like you said.

But still! when I first contacted her after the cutoff I wrote to her I knew I had messed up with the "sips text", she wouldn't have it, blocked every further attempt at telling her we could talk this through.

If I could get her to engage I know we can figure it out, when she's talking to me we are able to talk about difficult situations and agree on limits and she would respect them and so would I. I want her to give me the chance to "fix it" like we did when she thought I had given up on her, we worked through the crisis and had a wonderful time soon after, but I cannot do that if she won't engage.

she knows I need her feedback, whenever we would be together I made sure she knew I would wait for a reaction from her, I insisted that I cannot do "us" by myself, that I need her to be there and be "actively participating" with me in the broadest sense.

And up until that point she would, one time she even told me she didn't know how to ask me for something she wanted to do, I took it over from there and delivered (according to her at least). Point is she knows I just need a sign from her and I can do my thing and make things happen.

Which is why it's so frustrating that she won't respond, I know she has it in her to do it when times are bad, but for some reason she won't right now. Next week will be a full month of not hearing from her. Nothing to do other than keep waiting I guess.

Or just drop by her work unannounced and possibly causing a scene haha not looking forward to that. Thoughts?
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« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2018, 01:18:24 AM »

The week before she cut me off I made sure I gave her every opportunity to choose her ex over me, I felt it was odd how she was still living with him even after his "I cheated on you and I did X and Y to the girl" (she said she was so upset and crying and yelling at each other the neighbors called the cops to check on them, it was bad) and still be on a "nickname" basis with each other (then again she's also on a nickname basis with B at work, we never had nicknames for each other interestingly enough), I told her about it and she just brushed it off.

I told her I needed her to make that choice and I would probably keep giving her the choice to leave (I mentioned she tries to get me jealous, I guess this was my way of "calling her bluff" on it) and she would always pick me and I would shower her with affection whenever she did. I do accept that I need that validation from her picking me over anyone else, it didn't seem to be an issue because she always looked so certain that she wanted me whenever it came up.

If the cutoff had been just a few days prior I would have thought as she just made up with her ex, no big deal I did gave her the chance, but she told me she had an issue with him that she had to spend the night with the neighbors,

i do wonder... .

do you think she might have had resentment over the choice? do you think she might have made up with him, and/or confided this in him over the few good days you had?
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« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2018, 07:45:51 PM »

I don't think so.

Like I said before, she's still active on social media, and apparently he (the ex) got blocked too as all their interactions also disappeared, and its not like I just "can't see them", they are actually gone.

I think she confided in someone at work, most likely B. She's been particularly close with people at work (mostly management and not her immediate coworkers like S)

I think this is a case of " I don't want to date anyone right now", S did say she was hanging out with B who is married and "clearly" unavailable, she's been interacting with her older coworkers (mostly female, I think she feels less "threatened" about them being romantic competition, she did mention something about another coworker along the lines of being jealous of her looks)

Like you said, to cut off someone is a serious reaction, specially over such a seemingly "small incident" like the drinking text. I think she did have very, very high hopes about us but they came crashing down when I didn't answer like she expected and lost all hope in all relationships ever. Sounds too far but she's intense like that, I do believe she's experiencing it.

She's always contacted me right around the holidays, I'm hoping she'd do it come december. If not well it could be a few months, or maybe never haha.

I'm keeping busy at work but she is on my mind constantly, I keep swinging between letting go and checking back on her, though I have done that with previous relationships until the next person comes along so I'm trying not to expect anything right now, hopefully its her but whatever comes.
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« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2018, 02:42:19 PM »

how long are you open to waiting?
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« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2018, 09:16:01 PM »

She cut me off a month ago today.

I think its not as much waiting as it is just going about my life.

From past experience it could be months before she comes back around, I'm not counting on it but it is a possibility, just as it is a possibility that I'd meet someone else.

If she contacts me I'm ok with it, if not then it is what it is; obviously if I met someone else I'd let her know.

I don't have a timeline as to how long I'd "wait", if I were single I'd probably still talk to her if she appeared five years later haha.

Even if she were to contact me sooner rather than later I don't think the situation would change much, other than marrying her nobody has any reason to take me seriously or help me if she were to disappear on me again or in looking after her mental health.

The new house is still not ready but I am moving in on january so I guess there's a "soft deadline" on it. I'd be far enough away that regular dating is not going to be an option and long distance is not something I'm looking forward to; asking her to move in with me is a possibility but again, there are drawbacks.

I cannot move in with her for a multitude of reasons and I know its not reasonable to ask her to drop everything and move in with me, which tbh she probably would when in her "good mood"; maybe after the house is done and I can get her a horse haha that's one thing she said she doesn't want to give up on is her working with horses, calms her down I guess, I've heard of therapy animals and she's told me about it a lot so I know it helps her stay focused on something other than her own "chaos".

But no right now that's not an option, if it takes her six months to a year to come around then it would be perfect timing  .

I know it might sound like its too fast, I've know her for two years now and even though we have dated for about four months total in that time, every time she's with me she gets a little better: less angry, less dismissive, less anxious about a lot of things (that she's told me), less worried about the future. Maybe that's just what she tells me.

I can sense she's serious when she talks about it. she knows its a problem, its like she doesn't want to get "professional help" but she often said whatever I'm doing is working, and I do see it on my end so I don't think its just talk. Very basic stuff, mostly ground rules: have to be nice to me, have to respond properly instead of "k", "I'm fine", "work was ok", no getting angry over a dream, no getting angry over me talking to people, I did tell her not to leave me out of the blue/go missing if/when we went on a trip we had planned as I'd be responsible for whatever happens to her when she's out with me, she said she was ok with that, guess I should have left the "if we go on that trip" part out haha.

She's told me some things she's not willing to do and I respect that, she seemed surprised that I could compromise on things important to her, it's not all about me.

I'd just like more time with her, I'm sure things can get better  . or maybe I'm idealizing 

But anyway, that ball's on her court now, maybe I'll drop by before I move out for the "no ragrets" .

open to comments/suggestions
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« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2018, 10:31:25 PM »

so youre moving soon, do i have that right? and its far away?

does she know that?
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« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2018, 11:06:59 PM »

You got it right, and yes she knows, it was kind of our plan to take the trip in january before I had to move out, she was also looking forward to visiting me when I had the place set up, told her she could tag along for a sort of housewarming but the house wouldn't be "ready" ready, she said she had some bad memories about a similar situation so we agreed to wait for me to get the house done before she'd visit.

That was two weeks before she cut me off, it never seemed to be an issue, her own accommodations with the controlling ex seemed much more distressing to her, like I said before she even said she'd been working towards getting her own place but I don't know what came of it as she shut me down a few days later.

We also had plans for a gift exchange on christmas, we've done it before, told her I'd have a big tree and everything, she said she loved doing those little things with me. It's not like I was not going to see her for a long time, she works a lot and I'd be traveling back and forth moving things around for a while and I had told her I'd visit her every time, she seemed to like the idea.

I don't think this was the problem, I could be wrong but I think the fact that I wasn't as flirty with her on those days meant to her that I didn't like her anymore, unfortunately she won't ask/tell me what she needed, only one time but she went at a roundabout way telling me she didn't know how to ask for it, then it was the neediness (get back on your phone right now), then the provocation (I'm going out drinking, might get into a fight from my big mouth), then the rescue me (I don't think going out was a good idea... I have to spend money and I'm cheap), unfortunately I responded to all of those like it wasn't a big deal (punch them first if they fight you; have a good time, text me anytime; small sips then), she probably took it as I didn't care.

So it wasn't exactly out of the blue, I just didn't recognize the signs.

That's what I think anyway, could be a multitude of factors I'm not aware of as I now know about her whole work/colleagues situation. Maybe next time I'll know the signs and can act on them. Hopefully there will be a next time.
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« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2018, 12:10:06 AM »

Sorry for the double post, just an update.

She's now "best friends" with her ex again who she despised just a month ago, I'm guessing the falling out with the coworker just happened, basically on the hour (about three/four weeks after the "falling out" with me, which is the usual timeline)

I know I said I didn't think she had gone back to him and she hasn't, not yet anyway but I'm sure she'll try, she did it with me this last time when I asked to be just friends, but I was not entirely wrong, the intermediate hanging out and I suspect eventual falling out with the coworker lead her back to the ex, just as I suspect now her falling out with the ex will eventually lead her back to me (or maybe someone new) as it has before.

Is it wrong that I feel excited about that? This confirms most of my assumptions about how her relationships progress, the timeline of her insecurities (she did mention being "hormonal" and needy around her period before and I've read that it can make BPD symptoms flare up, maybe that's why her "breakups" line up so "elegantly"?) and that she does come back around after even the most serious offenses (his cheating). Not that I would do any of that to her but it is kinda comforting that its not what happened, that it had little to do with me (being distant for three days is not the same as cheating on your current gf, if she's able to look past the latter then the former should not be a problem).

I'm also kinda expecting them to fall out again as she will probably bring up the cheating when she inevitably (?) feels wronged by him over some seemingly small thing.

So if my calculations are correct (I know she's a person and not a robot driven by her condition but I can't help but feel excited that I actually understand her enough to predict/expect her next move haha) I could get a message from her right around Christmas.

I need advice! I know I will answer her message if she does come around, but I need to know what or how to say it. I don't want to be business as usual so I want to work this out with her but how to do it in a non confrontation way? It has worked for me in the past to just tell her instead of negotiate, she sets limits of her own when she disagrees (me: you have to be nice to me, no getting jealous over me talking to women, her: work with horses is non negotiable, her sleep routine is off limits), should I set this (no breaking contact) same as the other limits?

I know it might sound like wishful thinking to think she'll break up again with him and talk to me and I'll be the first to admit in this very same thread and move over to the detaching section to forget about her if I got it wrong but my gut feeling (which I now know to trust, its been on point lately) tells me this is correct, so I'm ready for it.

Also I'm ok with her doing this all over again until I can get the new house and asking her to move in with me, now that I know what to expect it should be more tolerable, though If she does contact me around Christmas it lines up with her being able to "follow me" when I move out on january.

I do have a bit of mixed feelings about taking her impulsivity and mood changes into account when making these plans, I'm not doing it to take advantage of her but I know its a fine line and I'm maybe trying to convince myself, I'm treading carefully here by asking you about this.

Or maybe I'm grasping at straws when confronted with evidence she might have just moved on.

Thoughts?
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« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2018, 01:00:58 AM »

She's now "best friends" with her ex again who she despised just a month ago

whats the backstory there? i know they fell out, but how long were they together, how long did they live together, do you know how they broke up, and did your relationship form with her at any time during that?

So if my calculations are correct (I know she's a person and not a robot driven by her condition but I can't help but feel excited that I actually understand her enough to predict/expect her next move haha) I could get a message from her right around Christmas.

im not sure its "wrong" to feel excited; im wondering what the coworker has to do with this, im thinking its not unrealistic to hear from her around christmas, and im hoping you have a plan along with some tools that is prepared, if your calculations are correct, to navigate this pattern and shift it in a healthier, stabler direction.

I need advice! I know I will answer her message if she does come around, but I need to know what or how to say it.

i think it would all depend on if she contacts you, and the nature of it. certainly a confrontational approach wont help. what does she normally do? pretend nothing happened?

my gut feeling (which I now know to trust, its been on point lately) tells me this is correct, so I'm ready for it.
... .
Also I'm ok with her doing this all over again until I can get the new house and asking her to move in with me, now that I know what to expect it should be more tolerable, though If she does contact me around Christmas it lines up with her being able to "follow me" when I move out on january.
... .
Or maybe I'm grasping at straws when confronted with evidence she might have just moved on.

imS,

i think that this cutoff hurt... .i would wager that each successive cutoff has hurt, increasingly. i think it would feel good to reverse that, have her reach out. i appreciate that, and i think its reasonably likely that she will.

im struck though, by a few things:

1. its not clear to me (either of us) why exactly she cut you off
2. its not clear what these hypotheses have to do with it... .i still dont know what the coworker, or her referring to you as her coworker had to do with it, or her making nice with her ex
3. assuming all of this is correct, its not clear what plan you have to shift the relationship to a healthier, more stable model beyond asking her to move in with you

what are your thoughts?
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« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2018, 06:36:35 AM »

Long post so TL;DR:

I see the pattern of breaking up and its causes, she cycles between relationships.

These updates about her coworkers and her making nice with the ex help me put a timeline together of what the cycle between breakup/contact looks like while I'm "out of the picture", helps me predict her next move so to speak and be prepared for it.

She won't acknowledge the breakup ever when she cycles back around to me, it hurts but I usually also brush it off, mostly because I enjoy being back with her.

I don't know why she cut me off, I don't think she knows either.

I think I'm a good influence on her and I'm planning to make the relationship better, work on communication and trying to figure out how to deal with her jumping ship.

I realize I might not be qualified to help her but I'm willing to learn and give it a try, I hope something good comes of it.

Now for the extended hardcover book version:

Excerpt
whats the backstory there? i know they fell out, but how long were they together, how long did they live together, do you know how they broke up, and did your relationship form with her at any time during that?

She moved near me (broke up with a longtime ex who cheated on her, moved to a few other places before landing near me), I met her about a year after she did, we dated for a few months, had a falling out after christmas, she dated someone else, that failed and she went back to me, we had another falling out, she met him (current "best friend" ex, she tried moving in with a few people during the time after she met/broke up with me and before him but those had failed for whatever reason, details in previous posts), moved in with him

I don't have the whole story, last she told me was he cheated on her. exes/failed relationships have been a constant whenever she comes back around to me, so much so I asked her a few times about him and/or if she was single and its always no boyfriend in sight or they were done. I didn't know she was living with him until now, I didn't even knew it was the same person she was dating after our every breakup. I initially assumed it'd been other people based on what she told me during our first few dating "seasons" how she was moving somewhere (later I found out it was a r/s waiting for her) or going back to her hometown (another ex) or her moving back close because a relocation fizzled out (the r/s didn't work out) etc.

I've known her for two years, they've been "together" for 1.5yrs, so at about me and her's second falling out she met him. For those same 1.5yrs we've been on and off about every three months, so yes its likely she's been cycling between me and him and possibly a few other dates/friends/exes though I can't be 100% sure.

Maybe she tells him about what "I did to her" same she told me about him, can't know for sure. I have not done anything beyond what I've written here so I'm not holding out on info, I also don't know why she breaks up with me other than what I've said about her feeling insecure.

Excerpt
im wondering what the coworker has to do with this

the coworker was "the rebound guy", she had been mad at the ex, she had a falling out with me, he was the shoulder to cry on so to speak. She's admitted to doing this, I mentioned it before: when she went out to visit family on a christmas she went and had sex with a "friendzoned friend" of hers, she admitted to it when she wanted me to go away after another long time ex (who she said also cheated on her, I see the pattern emerging) wasn't nice to her at a party. she told me about it, said she'd go out with friends and that he'd be there, we talked about it for a few days after, me trying to comfort her about it, she was dismissive for a few days and then that confession and breakup happened. Maybe I'm just enabling her.

Excerpt
what does she normally do? pretend nothing happened?

Exactly that, most I've gotten was a "wow" moment and then "business as usual". I usually limit my inquiry to "are you single?" or related, its always a yes, and "remember I said about the BPD?" and she'll ask what's that about and then act like I never said that, I tell her I'd make use of the fact on our relationship and she's like "ok whatever", only after we're on good terms or dating for a few days does she reveal her troubled past in between the last time we talked. She remembers the good times we've had and we make plans and everything is good until something happens which I later learn about on our next contact.

Excerpt
i think that this cutoff hurt... .i would wager that each successive cutoff has hurt, increasingly

Yes kinda, because each time she "makes progress" and we "move the relationship forward" just a bit more than last time, like you said, each time the stakes have been higher. But each time I would learn a little more.

This time was something I was not expecting, I thought I had it under control, her anger was expected before and I managed to curb it out (previously by telling her she had to be nice to me, most recently her saying "then fix it" when she thought I had given up on her, I did "fix it", she said "you did good" and we went and had a good number of good days), never had I experienced a breakup without the anger, that's what drove me here, the unexpected, for some comfort and to seek answers.

Excerpt
im struck though, by a few things:

1. its not clear to me (either of us) why exactly she cut you off

1. I don't exactly know and I don't think she does either, but for the few glimpses I've had its a combination of external stressors and her own insecurities that she projects onto me (you've given up on me, you're too good for me/I'm not good enough for you, the unmet "neediness" that's taken as abandonment)

I also think that, just like when I tell her about BPD, she'll just brush it off or "forget" about why she broke off with me in the first place. Maybe she actually does forget or minimize it to the point of non-existence like the exes cheating on her only to go back to them when the "rebounds" (possibly myself included in this category) don't live up to expectations.

Excerpt
2. its not clear what these hypotheses have to do with it... .i still dont know what the coworker, or her referring to you as her coworker had to do with it, or her making nice with her ex

2. The hypotheses have nothing to do with why she does things, only that she does them and the sequence of events that lead up to the next breakup/contact cycle.

They help me rationalize a behavior that I see in her and that I have near zero "direct" information on (why she cut me off). If I know what's happening in between, and I know what happens after, I can expect her next move. So far I've been mostly correct, though I'll give it to you that the conclusions might not be as "scientific" as I'm probably trying to make them out to be. I'll let you know if I was right if she does tell me that story after she contacts me again.

Now the role of the coworker J leaving is the stressor that set her off, she had kinda "moved on" from her ex from talking to me, so close friend coworker leaves and she feels like everyone is leaving her, including (her projection of it on) me, she tries to get me back (by quite literally telling me to get back on my phone over text) but I act like its no big deal, feels directly abandoned, cuts me off.

Her making nice with the ex means that, just like her hanging out with the other coworker B after she broke up with me, to me means that B, being married and all, likely rejected her advances (she tried to be friends but then her sexuality won over, she did that with me when I asked her to be just friends, she's told me she used to do that much more when she was younger and get in trouble because of it).

Feeling rejected she moved on to the closest sympathetic person, her controlling and sort of abusive but secretly quite likely "still in love with her" ex (this is why I keep mentioning if I'm being controlling/taking advantage of her, I fear I fit the bill just as much as he does)

And if she contacts me again its quite likely she had a falling out with him (the now "best friend ex"), going back to me for comfort and a very good idealization period where she's so over him and he's such a bad person and all that jazz.

Excerpt
3. assuming all of this is correct, its not clear what plan you have to shift the relationship to a healthier, more stable model beyond asking her to move in with you

what are your thoughts?

3. The thing I want to have with her is more time. In four total months dating time (over two years knowing her) she went from actually fearful of being touched (I suspect and she has hinted at a history of abuse, no specifics but its always "she's had bad memories" of otherwise normal situations involving intimacy) to being exceptionally nice not only to me but to other people, having her needs/boundaries respected and much more open communication when she's in a "good mood" (though the lie about me being someone else is still something to keep an eye out for, I didn't know about it until the incident with S, though S herself said "they didn't really talk much", as in they were probably not on good terms themselves to begin with so another one of those "I don't have all the variables" things).

She's still fearful of being abandoned apparently, I still don't know how to "properly" reassure her about it, when I told her I'd be there for her as long as she would have me she seemed conflicted about it but willing to give that a chance, its good but its not "be nice to me no questions asked" good enough (and she's been nice to me ever since).

She knows I'm a good influence on her, she knows I know about BPD, she knows I "do things", she acknowledges "whatever I'm doing is working".

I want more time with her to experience the good, which I do truly love about her, and to help her work through the bad.

I am learning a lot by reading up on other people's experiences here but to be brutally honest they do seem to have escalated too much with the physical aggression and drug problems and sleepless nights over what to tell them/apologize for over text and many more, I feel like I was like that with my dad when he had his anger issues but ever since I took it on myself to not let his anger dictate what I can and cannot do that he's been much more open and conciliatory and even downright vulnerable at times with me. I feel like that is what I'm experiencing with M, episodes don't usually escalate as much and even resolve on the same moment (the fix it moment was a success I think, even if this breakup was still an extreme escalation to cutoff there was no aggression/meanness like before), I feel like I have the tools to manage these difficult situations, and those I don't have I'm actively trying to get (like dealing with the abandoning/jumping ship thing) it's just I cannot change the proverbial flat tire if I'm miles away from the car, especially if I can't do anything other than to wait for the car to "limp" its way back to the shop.

Having her move in with me gives me a chance to first of all be with a woman I enjoy being with and two, have the proverbial car park on my garage every afternoon to work on and tune up. I know she'll drive it off into the sunset the next day, probably have a few bumps and be mad that the damn radio is broken again, but at least I know how to get her mood back to "baseline" and get her to realize she has to get it to work herself, simple as her flicking the "on" switch.

I know I'm possibly just fanning out my peacock feathers here bragging about how such a positive influence I am on her (I did mention in my first post I suspect I'm a bit narcissistic) and that there are likely other factors in her growth.

obviously I don't have a "calendarized" plan as to what I'm going to do to help her, I do plan on being more aware of communication issues both my own (stop trying to read her mind and ask her about her change in reactions/mood) and hers (get to a point where she feels ok to ask to have her needs met and how to do it, last time she said she just didn't know how to ask for something), and also letting outside stresses stay outside the relationship (I'm not the one making her angry/vulnerable, its the other person; my dad did the exact same thing lashing out at us at home when his boss was being a prick) and making it a solid foundation from where we both feel like we can rely on each other to deal with them because I know I will get beaten down by life at some point or another.

I know and have read about the fixer mentality is a bit on the "marginally productive" side of things before the accepting of "that's just how she is", but if therapists can manage change then it is possible, and I know I'm not qualified for that but just because you aren't a Michelin starred chef doesn't mean you can't ever make a tasty meal at home right?. If she won't go out to the restaurant to eat (therapy) I'd feel idle and anxious to just stand around and see her wither away out of stubbornness (I had bad experiences with therapy so maybe I'm shooting myself in the foot here), if I can "cook" (apply the tools) for her and she likes my "food" (boundaries/change/results/etc) and its good healthy food then why not try.

I still have to wait and see if she'll actually contact me, but its been the plan all along to learn while I wait, that's the why of the updates and my hypotheses and dissertations on the topic haha.

I don't know if that's a plan or again just wishful thinking. Or maybe just I'm hungry using all those food and cooking references.

(also, yay giant wall of text again)

thoughts?
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« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2018, 09:49:27 PM »

I think I'm a good influence on her
... .
I realize I might not be qualified to help her but I'm willing to learn and give it a try,
... .
have the proverbial car park on my garage every afternoon to work on and tune up. I know she'll drive it off into the sunset the next day, probably have a few bumps and be mad that the damn radio is broken again, but at least I know how to get her mood back to "baseline" and get her to realize she has to get it to work herself, simple as her flicking the "on" switch.

is this what a relationship with her looks like?

I've known her for two years, they've been "together" for 1.5yrs, so at about me and her's second falling out she met him. For those same 1.5yrs we've been on and off about every three months, so yes its likely she's been cycling between me and him and possibly a few other dates/friends/exes though I can't be 100% sure.

hm? what does "together" mean? on and off, or not official? and for essentially as long as youve known her, do i have that right?

3. The thing I want to have with her is more time. In four total months dating time

was the relationship physical? sexual?
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« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2018, 01:06:29 AM »

Excerpt
is this what a relationship with her looks like?

Not entirely, most of the time its us having a good time together, talking about our passions and making plans for the future which is what keeps me coming back.

That comes natural for both of us when she's in a good mood.

All this I said (the car analogy) is when the bad days happen, or ideally before they happen.

It sounds like you think I want to just "fix her". I do want to help her. I like who she is, I told her (and maybe I haven't made this apparent here), the change comes from within her, it has to be what she wants, and so far she has responded well.

I haven't made much effort to report on the good side because it's not really part of the problem or how to respond to it, or at least I hadn't thought about it like that yet.

Excerpt
hm? what does "together" mean? on and off, or not official? and for essentially as long as youve known her, do i have that right?

Together here means she broke up with me, met him, started dating, became bf/gf, moved in with him, broke up, tried that a few times, he eventually cheated on her but since she couldn't/wouldn't move out, they became "friends", also on and off.

I have just fragments she's told me, but they've been on and off I suspect as much as she has been with me, so yes, about as long as I've known her probably. Only difference is she lives with him.

I realize her living with me is no guarantee she wouldn't keep seeing other people (like she's been seeing me while living with him).

Excerpt
was the relationship physical? sexual?

Yes it was. "Just physical/sexual"? No, we dated, spent time together after work, shared activities and plans for the future, a lot of talking about the past. Basically dated and spent most of our free time together everyday whenever we would do, that's why it seems like a long time knowing her to me and maybe not so much "objective time" that I've been with her.

I get the feeling that it seems to you like I "must have her". Its not like that, not to me anyway. these problem focused discussions leave out most of the "unrelated context " out, namely the good times and quite likely my own mistakes that I am not seeing/realizing and therefore not including them here probably.

I am open to just moving on, accept that she is with him and I'm the distraction she needs sometimes. In January I'll start down that path. I still want to know what you think I should have done or what a healthy relationship looks like, maybe I'm blind to it but since I don't know what exactly to ask for I just ask for "advice".

I know its not up to you to tell me how my relationship with her should be, but I could use some pointers on what a healthier relationship/dynamic looks like?

I would like to be pointed out the things which are/might be going over my head, if I don't know the problem how do I work on it? Or maybe you've pointed it out already I am in denial of my role in this dynamic?

I know you're not my therapist but close enough for the time being haha maybe I should try therapy, it seems there's enough there for some professional help.

Thoughts?
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« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2018, 11:34:48 PM »

I could use some pointers on what a healthier relationship/dynamic looks like?

you and most of us here!

but seriously, i hear you, and im more than happy to help with that. obviously, theres more to it than can be covered in one post.

ill start with a couple of observations, a good resource here, and a question. sound good?

i dont know quite what to make of this relationship... .the status of it, the history of it, why she cut you off, where its going assuming the two of you get back in touch. the whole thing feels very... .aloof to me. im not sure what your investment in her is other than she has some good qualities... .im not sure what her investment is. weve discussed it in depth, and i feel that i know very little.

i think the cut off, and the previous cutoffs hurt, and you are ruminating a bit trying to piece together a reason why they occurred. very little of it adds up to me, except that i think the on and off situation with her ex might have played some role (not necessarily in the cut off... .but the entire trajectory) that role is not clear to me though, at all. personally, i cant make out any reason that she cut you off.

i still think that if the history is that she does this and then gets back in touch, that you are likely to hear from her again. i cant predict that with any certainty, because i dont know why she did it in the first place.

It sounds like you think I want to just "fix her". I do want to help her

they were your words, imS, not mine.

"is this what a relationship with her looks like" was a rhetorical question, not a judgment. im asking what about this relationship you find fulfilling beyond wanting to help her or be a good influence on her (rhetorical question) since you can do any of those things as a friend.

this is a pretty good checklist of characteristics of healthy relationships: https://bpdfamily.com/content/characteristics-healthy-relationships

which from both lists does this relationship possess?

tell me more about your relationship history, before her.
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« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2018, 06:05:48 AM »

Excerpt
you and most of us here!

I don't actually know what I expected asking that, but I guess if anyone knew they'd be  selling books and not helping people in a support board right?

Excerpt
i dont know quite what to make of this relationship
Excerpt
the whole thing feels very... .aloof to me

I was way too into her the first time around, three months of basically round the clock contact/dating.

I don't know if panicked was the word, but when I suggested I come by her house instead she flipped, aggressively telling me I'd never have her and I was not man enough and other things I can't really remember but along those lines.

That got to me, but after googling her behavior I found out about BPD and was sort of relieved but not really. I admit I have been more "observant" of our interactions, went from trying not to trigger her, to actually trying to trigger her and get it over with, to being mean back to her, to just trying to be friends.

I fell for her again every time she contacted me.

I like how she makes me feel like wanted and that she trusts me with her past, though I realize I might have issues with her telling me a relationship with her is impossible before: she would say we're not serious, that she's an independent woman that doesn't need a boyfriend, that she could live her whole life with someone and even have a family and still not consider "being in love".

This is part of the reason I approached her this last time as friends only, I had kinda given up on a real relationship, but fell for her again, and was (still am) trying to be a good boyfriend to her, she said she loved me, we planned a trip/vacation and visits and even the possibility of marriage and family in the future, she was so excited. I know I set expectations high, but I had those same expectations myself, she finally said she loved me and I was not going to miss the opportunity.

So there's that. I know I detach "easily", been like that since my grandpa (father side) died when I was 8, I was so sad but for some reason I decided I wasn't going to be sad, I remember being so proud that I didn't cry at the burial. Other funerals have been the same, though I don't feel proud, I kinda just experience it as a "thing that happens and has to be experienced, not grieved over"

It didn't help that my dad had us say goodbye when our puppies died. But anyway, enough childhood trauma for a moment haha back to romantic relationship stuff.

Excerpt
im not sure what her investment is. weve discussed it in depth, and i feel that i know very little.

pretty much non existent investment on her part other than she likes me and what I do for her, but then again she is not invested in anything other than her horses. She let go of family and started moving as soon as she could, moved quite a lot for two years since she landed near me and I met her a few months after (said this before).

So no commitment to the community, friends, or family. coworkers only as an as needed basis because she needs work. The ex she moved in with because she needed/wanted a place of her own (was staying at her boss' house/ranch while working the horses). As far as she told me she pays the bills, not entirely sure what he does for a living, she mentioned he had friends over for videogames often so maybe he needed someone to provide for him and her BPD was just the gateway he needed.

I know I'm focusing on him a lot, I can't help myself.

Horses is the only commitment she has, and she's been able to find that pretty much everywhere she goes, so that hasn't/won't stop her.

I really don't know where the commitment question goes into other than if she has plans with me or someone else? we had plans, she bails on them when she cuts me off, but she also remembers them when she contacts me again and we make the same or similar plans, every time a bit more on the serious side (like actually being a couple, marriage, family and all that); work is a given so we don't discuss it much, she knows I have my plans and I'm following through on them, been telling her about them every time.

So there's that?

Excerpt
since you can do any of those things as a friend.

I do realize that, and I tried being just friends with her. But we started talking about the past, she was happy that we were friends, but then she realized she was feeling a bit jealous/sad when I told her I had a few failed dates in between we last talked. She started being flirty with me, I asked her what was going on, we said we'd be friends, I even told her she was not being even as flirty as she had been before so it was not how I remembered her flirting from before (basically trying to be sort of mean that she wasn't flirting correctly, I was trying to half discourage her and half have her fully commit if she wanted to be romantic/sexy with me), she told me how she felt attracted to me, told her I did too but we tried that and it didn't work, we both kept being flirty and eventually we got back to basically how we'd been dating the first few intense months.

I know I can be a friend to her, but we keep being attracted to each other and I don't feel like rejecting her advances because I want that romance too.

Excerpt
which from both lists does this relationship possess?

Ok so checklist time:

Respect: maybe. I respect her, but I realize she does forget a lot of things and I keep reminding her. She is self focused and doesn't ask a lot about me, but she listens when I talk and is not mean about anything until she's triggered, so that's why maybe.

Trust and support. another maybe. I understand her feelings and will not judge her on them, I'm ok with her career and what it means to her, she loves that I have plans and that I can take the lead with my own life, business and even when we date. I realize I don't trust her as much, she withholds information and I know she reacts to triggers by seeking comfort in other people and that does bother me a bit.

ok so for context on why this bothers me so, me and a "friend" of mine had a business together, a female coworker and a few other friends spent a lot of time with us because we'd play videogames after closing and had snacks and basically party every night after work.

I liked her a lot, he knew, he encouraged me to chase her. She seemed to like me and would respond occasionally but only lightly. I later found out they had a history but decided to break it off (he was married).

So long story short, I found out he was lying to her, telling her one thing and doing another, like they would get together, he'd divorce his wife, he'd pay her college, telling her they had a future, and he'd tell everyone else he would dump her, he loved his wife and kid and she was just for sex, he'd share her pictures and flirty texts with friends and so on.

I couldn't stand it, I told her about it, she believed me, said she'd confront him about it.

Then he called, telling her I was feeding her lies and that I'd seen her messages too and that I was telling her that because I liked her.

I saw the most horrific panic in her eyes that day.

She was a whole another person, she pushed me away literally, blamed me for him breaking up with her, she was walking aimless, near crying, she had to leave work early.

After that she was friendly again with me, we'd be close for a while and then I learned he had conviced her to lie to me telling me they're broken up, they both lied about it. I also learned that he was stealing from our business and side dealing without recording it on the books, he was also shady dealing, got a few angry customers after I cut him off complaining he had ripped them off, I had to assure them I was no longer involved with them and if they had dealt with him, even if inside the shop, I was unable to honor their agreement. He took equipment that was not part of the "business partnership severance".

Him and his brother both had "stable" relationships and were also doing a lot of cheating, later I found out they were actually proud of it and our extended circle knew about it and were just as proud, it sickened me to hear people I trusted and considered good friends do that. I haven't allowed them to contact me since, and they tried a few times, I couldn't stand them.

She (M, not the girl of the story) knew all this, we talked about it when she mentioned her cheating ex, she knows I would not stand for it, much less do it myself.

ok so storytime over, moving on...

Honesty and accountability: sort of. On her good mood she realizes and acknowledges her behavior, I am open about having being mean to her at one point (when I pushed her to show me her "evil side" as she called it).

Again, she withholds information, not feelings, so honesty is dubious but she hasn't lied to me that I could tell (and I've tried to catch her in a lie).

Shared responsibility. Haven't had anything more serious than a date and house visit so zero shared responsibility besides the relationship itself.

Economic partnership. She works, I work. She has her place I have mine. we pay our own ticket, we both agreed to it. so unless she moves in with me, zero.

Negotiation and fairness. This is a big definitely. But mostly as in I take the lead, she complies. She tries to get me to back down, but when I don't she follows through.

She also has told me her non-negotiables and I accept them, even if I would like it a bit different, I respect that she is steadfast about those.

Any issue not agreed have previously lead to a fallout, after we got back together and "negotiated" they haven't been a problem. This cutting me off is an issue, I hope it won't happen again after we set our terms on distancing ourselves if we need space, or better yet, communicating unmet needs more effectively instead of exploding after a series of failed attempts to reconnect.

Non-threatening behavior. definitely. She used to be mean but now she won't, never has she threatened violence or self harm. I haven't used separation or other direct "threats" to get her to do anything, though I read the manipulation article on the site and I fit the "tantalizer" type, I do promise her good things if she follows through on something, but I usually deliver when she does so there's that.

So the ABC's of positive questions, only the family relationship is an issue for both. She doesn't really get along with them, I have a complicated past with them but still close.

All others are a positive answer.

Now for the abc's of negative questions, mostly "agree" except on last few (questions g through j) and the very first one (question a).

I am quite convinced she has BPD so this is not surprising to me.

Now the boundaries questionaire:

~ Telling all. YES (THIS FOR EXAMPLE haha)

~ Talking at an intimate level on the first meeting. No, not at first meeting, but soon after maybe?

~ Falling in love with a new acquaintance. Have done it in the past, but not in love quite like love, more like a deep crush.

~ Falling in love with anyone who reaches out. Not really, I'm quite selective of partners actually, have had a few girls try to initiate contact that I later found out had a crush on me in college but I had no interest so we didn't connect.

~ Being overwhelmed by a person--preoccupied. Yeah sort of, this?

~ Acting on the first sexual impulse. Definite no.

~ Being sexual for partner, not self. Yes and no, I like it when she does, but in a selfish way, not because I'm worried she likes it or not, but the fact that she does is exciting for me.

~ Going against personal values or rights to please others. Definite no.

~ Not noticing when someone invades your boundaries. How would I answer this if I don't notice it? so maybe?

~ Not noticing when someone else displays
inappropriate boundaries. Same as above, but I do see through people's intention most of the time so I don't know, but not really.

~ Accepting food, gifts, touch, sex that you don't want. Never.

~ Touching a person without asking. Never.

~ Allowing someone to take as much as they can from you. Nope.

~ Letting others describe your reality. Nope.

~ Letting others define you. Nope, very independent. Quite the opposite actually, often people seek me for guidance on my areas of expertise (mostly business and some academic)

~ Believing others can anticipate your needs. Nope, I don't anticipate my own sometimes so why would they.

~ Expecting others to fulfill your needs automatically. Never, again quite independent.

~ Falling apart so someone will take care of you. Nope, though I will step up if someone does, mom used to do that a lot when I was growing up so I know when she's doing it "just because" and when it's actually serious, so I guess that translates to others as well?

I'm running out of characters here, who would have thought 16k would not be enough haha.

ok so there's my latest wall of text, next up

Excerpt
tell me more about your relationship history, before her.

I'll write it on another reply
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« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2018, 06:59:39 AM »

Excerpt
tell me more about your relationship history, before her.

Ok so starting way back:

when I was basically a kid I liked the daughter of one of my dad's coworkers, we'd spend a lot of time together playing family on each job get together. my brothers would tease me about her. We grew up, they stopped making get togethers at work, I saw her just once in my adult life and she didn't remember me and I didn't remember her either, it was awkward.

Next, I liked a few girls growing up, none would reciprocate. Only one in "middle school" (I'm not american btw so I'm trying to line it up to the age group) did, we spent a lot of time together but she said she couldn't be serious with me. I found out she started dating one of my friends, I didn't think much of it since we were basically just friends. I saw her a few years later, much changed, had broken up, I actually didn't even went to say hello, I wasn't attracted to her anymore.

Another girl flirted with me but I don't know what her intentions were, I was the shy kid in class and she was the "cute popular girl", she'd tease me and kissed me a few times but we never hung out much. He started dating another classmate and that was that.

Highschool years I had one female friend, not romantic. I had to move away and I never tried to contact her, neither did she. I did like one or two girls but never attempted to reach out to them.

One of my cousins friends I did hang out a lot with when we would visit family and I told her I liked her, she said she was "waiting on someone else". ok cool, we kept contact through my cousin but as acquaintances, only once after did she try being with me but I really wasn't interested anymore. She married and has a kid, she contacted me after her kid got diagnosed with autism to check up on me and my romantic life, told her nothing had changed I was still not in a relationship and quite frankly I didn't want to talk to her about romance so I ended the conversation.

College years were most interesting haha.

I had a crush on one of my classmates from day one, she wouldn't have me so we kept it professional, but the feeling didn't ever go away so it was awkward every time.

One other girl I had one class with her, we became very friendly and would laugh in class and party sometimes but she was never overtly flirty so I never thought anything. After the semester we didn't have any class together and she would ocassionally wave at me but I wasn't too talkative anymore: I had nothing to talk about, we'd talk and laugh about class stuff and our parties so I didn't think I had anything interesting to say, so she eventually stopped trying. Later I found out through a common friend she did have a bit of a crush on me.

Another girl, same story different person. She did ask me out after the semester ended but it was so awkward because I never saw her romantically and apparently she thought we had been dating. Told her maybe and never saw her again.

Next up, I used to spend a lot of time at the library, had hours between classes but not enough time to go home, so I studied or even slept there (it was allowed, no problem). One girl would occasionally sit with me on the library couch and try to start a conversation. It was so awkward again, I didn't know what to say, I didn't even realize why she would just sit right next to me out of the blue and start talking about some random topic. I would follow the best I could but I wasn't feeling particularly flirty with her, she was an enigma and never even suggested she was into me other than talking out of the blue. She stopped trying after a while, became a lingerie model soon after believe or not.

I flunked a few classes so I had to work for a year until they were back on schedule. There I met my business partner "friend" and coworker girl that I liked, details on the previous post.

I went back to class, focused on it, passed one flunked the other for a second time. Didn't really talk to anyone except classmates and only for that particular class, tried to focus on getting my degree. I was just one or two hours a week at school so I didn't get to know them that well.

Right about that time I met M and it was wonderful. I liked her, she liked me, we hit it off. for a few months it was wonderful then it wasn't.

So I went back to school to get my degree, finally I managed it. I met a girl, classmate, she was too shy, I was a few years older than her classmates now so that might have been an issue, she seemed interested but would shy away. I went with her to our graduation, we had a good time, but she seemed to want time with me but I didn't have much to go on, she was attractive but would not be romantic with me beyond the superficial (serious dating was not an option, she sort of wanted me to be her secret, just flirt and chase, nothing else). I stopped trying.

Another classmate did have a crush on me and told me on graduation, I just knew her by name and wasn't attracted, so I just stood there awkwardly until she went away.

Had a few "not serious" relationships in between, basically ok ones, probably lasted a few months each maybe. it was always "been busy, sorry I haven't reached out, work is a mess, lets reschedule" after the initial spark, so I would stop trying.

And then there was M again, and she's been the highlight of my dating career haha.

So no long term or even serious relationships ever. M has been the longest and even with her it's been on and off.

I know I've longer for a good relationship and kept crushes for a long time after they were not really viable anymore, they would sort of go away when I met the next person and then I'd crush on them for a long time after. Maybe that's why I keep coming back to M, she's back while I'm still longing for what was.

Anyway, not an ideal dating history but it is what it is and I don't regret it, I want a relationship but I will not settle just to be in a relationship, had plenty of chances to just "go along with it and see what happens", but I want it to feel like a big deal if that makes any sense. Loving someone should be (to me anyway) the highlight of our lives and not just someone we live with and have kids with. Seen a few people close to me do it like that, they are not where they would want to be even if they do love their partner, its more a convenient love than passion, and I look for passion; M gives me that even if she takes it away due to her insecurities when she cuts me off.

Maybe later I'll meet someone who can provide a more stable but strong love, after january I will start looking again. In the meantime, I'll wait for M, and quite possibly keep dump my whole life story in these walls of text haha.

so grab a chair, get a tasty drink, stay a while and listen (read?), I might keep coming back, these are a bit cathartic and I guess I needed it, been writing for four hours now.

Until next time. thoughts and suggestions or anything really, comment below.
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« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2018, 11:15:41 PM »

Excerpt
I don't actually know what I expected asking that, but I guess if anyone knew they'd be  selling books and not helping people in a support board right?

i was being facetious, but i wasnt kidding. people with BPD traits generally have low/poor relationship skills. generally, so do their partners. the tools here are basic relationship and coping skills that can take us far.

Excerpt
I know I detach "easily", been like that since my grandpa (father side) died when I was 8, I was so sad but for some reason I decided I wasn't going to be sad, I remember being so proud that I didn't cry at the burial. Other funerals have been the same, though I don't feel proud, I kinda just experience it as a "thing that happens and has to be experienced, not grieved over"

you may be describing compartmentalization, or dissociation. both are coping mechanisms, that taken to extremes can prevent us from feeling, or experiencing the human experience... .can make bonding or attaching to others very difficult. you describe what sound like very detached relationships.

Excerpt
She started being flirty with me, I asked her what was going on, we said we'd be friends, I even told her she was not being even as flirty as she had been before so it was not how I remembered her flirting from before (basically trying to be sort of mean that she wasn't flirting correctly, I was trying to half discourage her and half have her fully commit if she wanted to be romantic/sexy with me), she told me how she felt attracted to me, told her I did too but we tried that and it didn't work, we both kept being flirty and eventually we got back to basically how we'd been dating the first few intense months.

I know I can be a friend to her, but we keep being attracted to each other and I don't feel like rejecting her advances because I want that romance too.

i think that analyzing her flirtations is a form of rejection, and half trying to discourage her/half trying to get her to commit is not a winning strategy. generally speaking, go with her flow, or just treat her like a friend and nothing more. these things dont necessarily need to be discussed.

Excerpt
So no long term or even serious relationships ever. M has been the longest and even with her it's been on and off.

okay. so not a lot in the way of intimacy with women.

im wondering two things:

1. any close friendships with women/strong female role models, influences, advice giverss
2. any of that with men?
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« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2018, 03:43:53 AM »

Excerpt
you may be describing compartmentalization, or dissociation. both are coping mechanisms, that taken to extremes can prevent us from feeling, or experiencing the human experience... .can make bonding or attaching to others very difficult. you describe what sound like very detached relationships.

Sounds about right, but I have no idea what to make of this right now.

Excerpt
i think that analyzing her flirtations is a form of rejection, and half trying to discourage her/half trying to get her to commit is not a winning strategy. generally speaking, go with her flow, or just treat her like a friend and nothing more. these things dont necessarily need to be discussed.

I see your point, but what about my flow? I also want to be able to set the tone sometimes and not just be reacting all the time, give and take right?. Like you said, this might have not been the best strategy even if "it worked" at the time, any pointers on this?

[Sidenote, I added these because after re-reading my post I'm noticing a lot of frustration on my part, just some calmer afterthoughts, bear with me]

Being friends is out of the question, we tried that, we both wanted more (case in point this situation), so I won't try that again. If she says just friends I'll say no, or we'll be back to this situation and the cycle will start again.

[Yeah I don't know what I even meant by this, I guess I was telling myself I won't be just friends with her?]

It might again sound like I'm forcing the issue and I can see that, but I have to set the tone here, I want us to be a couple. I won't be her "little secret" anymore, been there for two years and we keep splitting (both as a couple and in her dysregulation). Something needs to change, and I know it is me who needs to change.

[We talked about me meeting her family and coworkers, but it was to happen after our january getaway. I'm a bit frustrated because we were both(?) looking forward to that and this breakup puts a hard stop on any plans we made]

I don't want to end it with her, but I can't stand being just friends anymore after this particular series of events: I know where it leads, I won't reject her flirting so we will end up romantic again, and if I cannot deal with that part we go right back to frustration street and yet another breakup.

So even if I were to keep it friendly, I am sure I will inevitably fall right back to her, it will be a temporary thing no matter what, a stopgap measure so to speak.

[Frustation town again it seems haha I don't know, I guess I got burned "trying" to be just friends with her last time and I'm still feeling the pain falling for her only to break up because of "not keeping it friendly", while at the same time I realize I don't want to keep it "just friendly", see what I mean?]

Ok so point noted, no more discussion of her motives, I will be more mindful of that.

[*Salt intensifies* haha]

Excerpt
okay. so not a lot in the way of intimacy with women.

im wondering two things:

1. any close friendships with women/strong female role models, influences, advice giverss
2. any of that with men?

Not any real intimacy it seems, no.

M didn't start out as "intimate" as I had hoped in the beginning, only this last time did she seem to want a "real relationship", it would be sort of "I'm with you all the way and for the long term but I won't ever say I'm committed" before (I've posted about this)

And to be honest I don't know why I have put so much effort into it despite that, other than it gets better every time we get back together, as in we get closer and consider the relationship as more than just hanging out and sex.

Now to the questions:

1. None that I can think of right now.

Closest friendship I had was with cousins. I was very close with my one of my cousins growing up, but I have to admit I started distancing when she began dating (early teens, we're about a year apart). ok so this sounds weird just reading it like that: I wanted my friend back, it was frustrating that she'd choose to spend her time with "some guy" over her "good friend cousin/me".

To be honest I don't know what I expected, we would see each other less often since she moved away so every visit I wanted to spend time with her like when we we're kids, so I was frustrated when "family gathering" time was spent with someone other than family.

At one point she literally dumped me and my brother with one of her friends who was just as confused as we were about why we were put in the same space and being told to "get to know each other" because she wanted to go see a guy she wanted to date.

Then as we became adults she was always busy working, even when we would go visit her and my aunt, so I kinda just stopped trying to reach her.

We still see each other on vacations and talk but its we're not nearly as close as we were back then.

On the role model side that's a big ol' maybe.

My aunt is a bit of a role model because she's well respected in the community and she gets things done, but she also likes intrigue and will play dumb when confronted; family talks always get the truth out so I have mixed feelings about her "role model status".

Another cousin has a relationship and family I see as an "ideal" but she's a few years older than me so we never really connected other than having a laugh at family reunions. My older brother is very close to her and her family, he was a bit of a problem child so that stability helped him a lot growing up.

In the "not family" category I had an issue with a teacher where she questioned her colleague's decision to put me in an advanced class (I'm a bit of an overachiever academically speaking) in front of everyone in a parents-teacher event thing because she thought I "had not spent enough time at 'my current level'".

2. Guy "friends" I had a few.

First my cousins, I would visit them and spend all day with them playing and having a good time when we were kids. Unfortunately we'd also be left to our own a few times and that caused some trouble: a few times one of them would get injured, sometimes we would go hours without food not knowing how to get a meal done (there was food, we just didn't know what to do with it), we'd be left at their house for a sleepover but not be told about it (I thought it was a regular day visit) so we'd sleep in, I didn't like that because I kept expecting to be picked up to go home and that didn't happen until the next day.

When things were bad in a visit it always seemed home was such a cozy and warm place to return to, so I stopped asking to visit them. Interestingly enough we would not get visits at our house often, just maybe once or twice a year, never known what to make of that fact.

Had a good friend when in elementary, we were close for years (up to our teens) but after we graduated and I changed schools yet again I lost track of him.

I had a group of good friends throughout highschool, we would hang out at school and have fun and all that, I never did anything with them after school; I lived far and was still not comfortable without an exit strategy, I imagined it playing out like when I visited my cousins back in the day, so I would turn them down.

After graduation we went our separate ways, met a few of them in college but again, I changed schools and didn't keep up with them. Only once I knew of a reunion, but I made an excuse and didn't go. They had problems last semester because of drugs and I wasn't into that, even they told me they didn't see it as "my kind of thing", so I wasn't too eager to get back into "their world".

Even so, last semester was the best time of my youth. classmates that wouldn't normally hang out with us came together to play cards and boardgames and laugh at stupid jokes, it was so beautiful haha but it was our last semester, we had fun at graduation and everyone went their separate way.

As an adult just had the "business partner friend" who I considered close, turns out he wasn't (details in previous post)

I kinda just stopped trying having friends I guess?

As for role models I never considered anyone in particular I don't think.

Had one uncle I knew from my dad's side, he was his step-sibling so to speak (grandma remarried). My dad looked up to him (his only brother, another uncle died young before my dad even met him) so he would take us to him and he would congratulate us on school achievements and give us money for it haha.

He worked a lot but had his vices: smoking, drinking, gambling. I liked him as my uncle but we were not close, we would not visit too often.

I have a "troubled" history with my dad which I've mentioned before so there's also that.

I accept my history, I can't change that. I've focused on me and school and now more recently the family business I guess. Everyone in the family will encourage us to keep at it, keep studying, keep learning, to keep dreaming.

My grandma was their inspiration, she went through very rough times (as in, they had days without food on the table) and got her family through and gave them a future, of which I am now reaping the rewards with having been given the means to educate myself and be an entrepreneur.

My parents moved in with her right before I was born because of economic hardships and she would say she was very manipulative and abusive and would break down when confronted about it, she'd remember any situation as an attack on her and her motives and would play the victim whenever my mom would try to set boundaries about her interactions with us kids.

That caused my mom to take us away from there, dad went and convinced her to move back to hometown instead of with grandma. Things got better financially eventually, but they also had a rough history as a marriage and I witnessed some of it, some of it I don't even remember even when I was there.

So yeah, I learned all that as an adult, but still, I have no conscious memory of looking at her as a role model beyond the abstract "keep at it like your grandma" everyone kept saying. I loved my grandma, but she was kind of hard on us kids sometimes, specially around dinner. so yeah, more issues I guess haha.

Excerpt
people with BPD traits generally have low/poor relationship skills. generally, so do their partners

I guess I'm "high functioning" as people say, I have no problem dealing with people professionally and even casually, everyone sees me as driven and confident now (I was very, very shy growing up so I cultivate that image and try to apply assertive and proactive skills, or so I tell myself haha)

So in these posts I noticed a few things about myself and please don't get me wrong, I realize this could be from interacting with people in crisis mode so you don't make things worse, I get that but I feel like you go around my "issues" without addressing them directly.

[More frustration  ]

I've said it before but I can't work on what I don't see or notice, please point out the issues you see. Because seriously I have a feeling there's something right there in front of my face that I'm just not seeing.

Maybe its just my glasses  .

But seriously, I'm a big boy now hit me with it, I think I can handle it.

Truth be told I have no idea what to expect from all of this now, this seems to have gone quite far from "help me with my gf" all the way into "psychoanalyze me" territory haha.

Tell me if you think I'm going too far haha I'm just rolling deep on this thing here 
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Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 12608



« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2018, 02:43:25 PM »

I feel like you go around my "issues" without addressing them directly.

its a skill to listen, to ask questions, to help a person reach insight about themselves, by themselves... .and at times to offer some observations/feedback and/or advice.

im not a psychotherapist or an expert or professional of any kind. it would be the height of arrogance for me to say "these are your issues, this is what to do about them". i dont know any of that.

that said, when asked, im happy to offer observations.

what you mentioned about the loss of your grandpa and "deciding not to be sad" is very telling. it suggests to me that you might have shut off major sources of emotions at a very young age. this makes it difficult to be in touch with ourselves, or others, in very real ways.

that is born out by having few if any intimate relationships. that breaks my heart, because i can tell youre a good dude with a lot to offer and receive.

there are a lot of theories about why we fall for emotionally unavailable people. one of the common ones is that we have a subconscious fear of intimacy, and so we seek out relationships that may be very intense, but cant/wont build or sustain genuine intimacy. its one that applied to me, and probably on some levels still does.

when i say that this relationship sounds "aloof", i mean it feels very detached, and not intimate, almost as if you barely know each other even after spending many hours/days together, dating, having sex, etc. perhaps im wrong about that; its just how it sounds from here. yet there is, as you say, something very powerful that draws you to it/her.

one of the common themes is that you mention wanting to help her, and compare her to a car in your garage. it sounds to me like your primary interest is essentially to be a life coach to her, so long as she is nice, and willing. i dont mean that judgmentally, and im not implying judgment toward her on your end. what i am saying is that that doesnt seem like a fulfilling romantic relationship (like i said, you can do any of that as a friend). for instance, if all the problems were solved, if there was no puzzle, no mystery, nothing to win or obtain, i wonder if you would still be interested.

i also dont mean to suggest that any of thats unique to you. it is, to lesser or greater degrees, a description of a codependent relationship, and one most of us can relate to. we often do these things to avoid, or to ensure that we are always seeking but never quite obtaining real intimacy. while it assures pain, often times, that is the draw.

so what do you do about it, about any of it?

1. self awareness, management, relationship skills, coping skills, all go a very long way. most of our baggage, world view, coping style will always be with us on some level. knowledge gives us perspective... .for example, just learning more about relationships, their trajectory, my own tendencies, better reading others, all go a long way toward seriously limiting my tendency to be flooded with anxiety in the early stages of a relationship. learning about vulnerability, intimacy, trust, and how to build these things over time, will likely go a long way for you in connecting with others and building sustainable and mutually rewarding relationships.

2. from a psychoanalytic standpoint, it may require going back to a/the source. to letting yourself cry and grieve for your grandpa, and to feel those feelings. there may be huge parts of you that youve kept locked away since.

3. youve mentioned considering seeing a therapist. do it. if you have any interest in #2, we can listen, we can support you, offer insight, perspective, feedback, but i know of no one here with the skills or expertise to guide you in the steps required to do that.

4. we havent spoken in detail about your history with your dad, but i gather there is a lot there. i would encourage you to start a thread on the Parent/Sibling/In law board and explore this; id be happy to participate.
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