Maybe it's me...

[Ozzie101]

For a week, things have been (mostly) good. No major outbursts. A couple of down days but no rages. My husband has been more like the man I fell in love with.

But last night, I started to see red flags.

My parents are coming to dinner tonight. He has very mixed feelings about my family and they've always been a real focal point of our troubles. He's convinced they look down on him for being divorced, not being a doctor or lawyer (he makes a VERY good living and is well-educated), that we're the low people on the family totem pole. None of that's true but as I work on not JADE-ing, I do my best to not fan the flames.

Anyway, it was his idea to invite them. Great, I thought. Then he came up with the idea to cook pot roast, which sounded great to me. Then, last night, I could tell he was getting very anxious about my parents coming. He started complaining about how much money he spent on the ingredients, started saying "It always takes longer than the recipes say. They're used to eating at 6. It will be later." I just stayed calm and kept assuring him it would all be great. My parents will be perfectly happy. I even offered that, if he preferred, we could cook something else and save the pot roast for just us the next day. He was very passive-aggressive about it. He also kept trying to pin blame on me for the pot roast, what time my family is coming, the fact that they're coming at all. I didn't contradict him and he never went into a rage.

He even kept making comments like "Pot roast is my favorite meal" and "I usually have it for my birthday" -- things he's never actually told me, but he seems to hold a grudge that I didn't cook it for him for his birthday (he was out of town for that whole weekend). I let that go.

It went on from there, though. He started talking about our home security system and how he doesn't think it's good enough and how he doesn't feel safe. I offered to do some research for us.

From there, it was on to our financial advisor (a family friend), who he feels has done a horrible job on advising him. I've told him many times I'm happy moving to someone else. He never jumps on that, just complains about her and the job she does, though he admits the person he's always used hasn't done any better for him lately. Again, it was my fault for not letting her know he's not happy, even though he hasn't so much as mentioned her or his retirement accounts since we last met with her this summer.

Then it was our bank (again, my bank, which he switched to when we married to combine our accounts). I could tell he was trying to blame me for all these things. I kind of let him, remembering that I've told him many, MANY times that if he thinks another bank/system/person would be better, then let's move. When we first decided on the bank, he was the one to choose that one. I told him I would be happy to switch to his and to use his financial advisor, too. Yet now it's all my fault. With the bank, I offered to take on more responsibility for keeping up with the online banking stuff and, if he wants to switch, said I'd handle changing all the online payment settings, etc.

Again, he never flew off the handle, so I guess what I did worked. But I could tell he was spoiling for a fight. And now I'm afraid we'll get another one. He'll be fine with my parents here. He may be quiet and moody, but he won't lash out, I know. Still, I know I was looking forward to a pleasant meal with them. He's said he does like them and he's been able to have nice, relaxed conversations with them before, but he's working himself up into a state.

The danger I see is with our financial advisor. He wants me to let her know we think she's done a horrible job in advising us and if she doesn't fix it right now, we're moving elsewhere and taking my family with us. The thing is, I don't think she's done a horrible job. I think she's very conscientious and trust-worthy. She may not be as aggressive as my husband would like and may not have told him what he wants to hear (for instance, she told him that the way things stand now, no, he won't be able to retire at 50), but I think she's good at her job. I'm happy to move elsewhere but I have no intention of blasting her. If I don't, I'm not taking his side or standing up for him. And if my family doesn't want to trash her and leave her -- and I'm sure they wouldn't unless she did something really unethical or incompetent --  then that would be another example of how they don't care about him or us and how they're selfish, awful people.

He's worried a lot about money lately because our savings have dipped down some this year -- thanks in large part to a medical issue and car accident I had this summer. Things like that happen and we are fortunate enough that we can handle those unexpected things without a big problem. Thing is, I make WAY less money than he does. I'm well-educated but work in a field that's not exactly lucrative. I feel bad about that and have been looking for something else. He frequently mentions things like how some couples who both make six figures don't have to worry about things, or makes references to how he and his ex never had to worry about money because she made even more than he does. I'm looking for a better job. I've offered to get a part-time job to help bulk our savings back up and take pressure off of him. I know my low pay makes him feel trapped. I can't support us and he's pretty much as high as he can go in his profession. Any other job would mean a big pay cut. That adds to his stress, I know.

In his raging moments, he'll accuse me of marrying him for his money and seeing him as only a cash cow. Very hurtful statements to hear. I'm working on validating, telling him I know it must be stressful for him and I can see why he might feel that way. But it's a topic I'm very sensitive about, particularly knowing that the dip in our savings was all due to me.

Thing is, I know he has a point. I do live off of him to a certain degree. I don't really "stand up" for him, at least not in the way he wants. I don't want to upset people and I don't want to blame people for things when I think it's unfair to do so. And even when I do confront people, I tend to do it in a calm, reasonable way. I feel like that gets better results. But when he berates me for not handling it the way he would, there's a part of me that feels like maybe he's right. Maybe I am too careful. Maybe I don't support him the way a wife should. Yet, what's right? To stand by him and follow what he says and wants even if I feel like he's wrong? Or follow my own conscience and handle things the way I feel is right?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Enabler]

Hey Ozzie101,

I think it's very important that each of us retains our rite to choice. Mental health issues or not we all have the rite to make choices and bare the consequences. Reading what was happening time and time again in your explanation is that your husband exercises his rite to choice, but then expects you to bare the consequences. In some of the situations like changing the bank accounts you rightly hit the ball back into his court and said "Okay, if you don't like it, you make the call on which one you do like"... .crassly put "you don't like it, you change it". The FA example is similar in many respects, he knows what he doesn't like but wants you to be his 'flying monkey' to do his bidding for him.

I know it's a bit of a cliche around here but this sounds to me like a boundary dispute. He doesn't know where he ends and you begin. He is uses the argument of 'supporting him' to make you feel guilty about not backing him up. This is one of the many ways 'boundary bashers' manipulate others into feeling FOG (Fear, Obligation & Guilt) to get what they want without feeling the negative consequences of their choices. There are many ways to prevent him from dumping things on you but primarily they all revolve around a similar theme... .

KNOW YOURSELF
KNOW WHERE YOUR BOUNDARIES ARE... .MY  YOUR 
POLICE THE BOUNDARIES

Policing the boundaries can be done in many many different ways, you demonstrated one of them when you said "well what bank account do you want?" but just like your garden fence, if your neighbour chucked rubbish over, you have 2 choices, rock up to their front door and call them out, or chuck it back over the fence.  Sometimes a little nudge back over "so what's your suggestion?", "Oh dear, that must suck FOR YOU"(mentally jog on) is called for, sometimes a doorstep confrontation is required "No, that is nothing to do with me, I will not be any part of that".

Your H and many people with BPD Traits tend to want to offload all negative feelings or experiences... .including responsibilities, risks, guilt, shame, liability onto someone else. Your front lawn is littered with your H's mess... .start tapping it back... .it's his. One final thing, you don't move your garden fence very often do you?... .well don't move your personal boundaries with you H either. Here's a great note on the topic:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

Look forward to hearing from you.

Enabler

[Ozzie101]

Your analogy makes a lot of sense. And I've been tempted many times to tell him, "No, that's something you need to deal with."

The problem is, I've tried telling him that or suggesting that if he has a problem with it, maybe he needs to address it. When I've done that, he has immediately lashed out, reminding me how much stress he's under (and how I'm just making it worse), how he has no time and when he comes home I'm just sitting around anyway, accusing me of wanting HIM to be the bad guy, of having no guts.

And sometimes I'm afraid that if I make him handle it, he will really go after the other person. I guess I feel like it's my job to protect people from him. At the same time, though, sometimes I feel like he's sort of puffing himself up and that he wouldn't actually do what he says he would. But if he did, it could lead to a lot of trouble. For instance, if he verbally berates the financial planner and threatens to make my family switch, too, that would be a big mistake, in my opinion and could set us up for major family drama.

Maybe the answer is to say "I'm happy to take care of it. But, if I do, I'm going to take care of it how I see fit, in the way I think is right. It may not be the way you want but I can only do things and behave in ways I believe are right." I really don't mind some things, like handling the switch of banks, etc. That's just dividing up household chores as far as I'm concerned. But I will not burn bridges when I do it.

[Radcliff]

How did the dinner go?  I think you're doing a great job of not being reactive to your husband, and it sounds like it's helping to keep things calm.  Keeping things calm is one half of the equation, and having good boundaries is the other.  To me, boundaries is the tougher half.  Keep working to develop your abilities there.  I think you're spot on with your reluctance to take your husband's message to other people like the financial planner.  My wife used to try to get me to do this all the time, until I realized how much chaos it caused.  When we lean on someone like a service provider, we're in a conversation with them and we know how hard we can push while still retaining trust.  When our spouse gets to dictate the message to us but not deal with the person, they are free to express unregulated emotions with no consequences.  And we seem crazy and unreasonable to the outsider. 

Regarding you making less money than him -- it sounds like you're both in careers that you prepared for, and have a stable financial existence.  I'm sure you married him because you love him, he knew about your career when he married you, and the love and all of the other contributions you bring to the relationship are priceless (sorry if that's a cliche ;)  Don't be tempted to change careers just to appease him.  If I may ask, what do you do for work?  Do you enjoy it?

RC

[Enabler]

Hiya,

Are there any examples of him actually following through with his threats ie “I tell you what, I think someone should get down to Walmart and tell those evil people who terrible it is that they only put 4 bananas in a pack now instead of 5. Don’t they know that good hard working people like me have one a day. They’re doing it just so I have to buy 2 packs a week, they’re ripping us off. I’m going to go down there and unleash hell fire, actually o think you should do that when you next go grocery shopping. Then I think I’ll write to the CEO.” Does he ever actually follow through or is it that you see the potential in his anger?

As Radclifff says, boundaries are not easy, they actually involve painful emotions and actually often painful reactions from the people we’re enforcing our boundaries on. Shouting and screaming that it’s an injustice that they should be kept out, restrained, restricted, that they shouldn’t be allowed to have free rein over your front lawn. If you want to make this stick, you will need to SHOW him with consistency where you end and he begins... .it’s often said, he doesn’t know where he ends.

“You do as you feel fit with the FA, what my family does is not your concern, they are adult enough to make their own choices without you let interferance.”

Enabler

[Cailin]

In my experience, setting boundaries with my husband kicks off abandonment fears.

[Ozzie101]

Thanks, all, for the replies!

The dinner went well -- at first. My parents, grandmother and one sister (who is developmentally delayed and lives at home -- the only person he likes 100% of the time) came and everyone was relaxed, friendly and chatty, including husband. The food he was worried so much about was perfect. Shortly after dessert, they left. Almost immediately, it's like the air in the room changed. I started cleaning stuff up and my husband went and sat in the living room. After I'd finished, I joined him and we were quiet for a while. Then he started talking and it came out: he was angry and offended that they'd left when they had.

To backtrack, I'd told them to come about 5:30. My parents live an hour's drive away. They had my elderly grandmother (who goes to sleep early) and were dropping my sister off at another sibling's house for a weekend stay. So, them leaving about 8 didn't strike me as odd at all. This is the way they usually do. If I'd known he wanted them there longer, I would have asked them to come earlier but I didn't think anything of it.

To him, their leaving early was a sign that we're low priority and they don't really care about us. He said when we go down there to see them, we stay for hours -- not true. We have done that one time, the only time we went for Thanksgiving which, as I said, is different. There are different expectations on a holiday. Also, on a day when no one's working, you can go earlier. He was convinced that when they have dinner with my siblings, they stay much longer. Thing is, I'm pretty sure they rarely if ever come up to have dinner with my siblings.

He said my parents are always posting on Facebook about getting together with the others. They don't. I'm friends with both my parents too. Mom hasn't posted one thing this year, other than liking or commenting on other posts. My dad has done it maybe a handful of times and rarely about siblings. When I calmly told him they don't do that, he turned on his phone to show me, then turned it off and changed tactics.

In this long, confused conversation, it turned into an attack on my sisters' parenting skills ("One sister always puts her kids in daycare during breaks. She doesn't spend any time with her kids. I'm a better parent because I make time.") I didn't reply to that one. Again, not true.

Then it turned on me. He found out that, yes, sometimes my sisters and I text. It's rare and nothing of any importance at all, but it made him furious and he felt lied to. I understand why, to an extent. I know feeling out of the loop is a big trigger for him. Yet, I didn't think knowing about a niece's upcoming gymnastics meet (not an invite, just a plea for good thoughts) was something he'd care about. Also, any mention of family, at this point, I fear will trigger him. So, I'm a liar.

And this then brought up all this stuff about my step parenting skills. My stepson is 8. We have a good relationship, I've thought. We're not all cuddly with each other -- neither of us is like that -- but we get along well. Never had any trouble at all. I've tried to be careful not to overstep bounds because I don't want to upset my stepson or his mother. My husband basically told me it's been 2 years and things should be different now. I (again, calmly) told him I was sorry if things weren't where he wanted them to be but I thought things were fine. I wanted to be cautious but was happy to step things up if he thought it would help. I also told him that everything I'd heard and read said it usually takes an average of 5-6 years for families to fully gel and asked him what his expectations are. He couldn't tell me what it was he expected. But he thought 2 years was way more than enough time. He's had girlfriends who were way more bonded to him than I am (girlfriends who already had kids of their own and were not living in a house with him -- different relationships and responsibilities). Result: I felt even more insecure, inadequate and like a failure. I guess he was able to find a vulnerable spot I haven't reinforced yet.

With my family, his solution was, next time we go see them, we stay 2 hours and leave, no matter what. At least he's aware enough to admit that that's not the right attitude to have, but he said that's how he feels. I told him I understood how he felt. Knowing inside that we rarely if ever stay more than 2-3 hours ourselves. He can't stand to be around everyone for that long.

Anyway, the conversation ended and the next couple of days were fine. Then he brought up Christmas and trying to set up something with my family -- tricky since we'll be out of town for the actual holiday week and the week after. But we want to get together with all who can while we have stepson with us. So, he suggested starting the ball rolling with a suggestion of what to do and dates. I approve of that. The thing is, in his current state, I also know that if they don't respond exactly how he thinks they should, it's going to trigger a massive problem -- complete with him telling me that if I do anything with my family, I'm choosing them over him.

I'm terrified now that I'm facing another big crisis. Because they're adults. I have no control over them. And I know them. They're great people but the way they put things sometimes hits him crosswise, even though I know them and I know that's not what they meant. For instance, I texted my dad asking about a friend's car dealership and who we should ask to talk to there about a new car. His reply: "I'm not sure. But if you want me to, I can ask [owner]." What I know he meant: "I don't really know but if you want to look at cars there, I'll ask [owner] to see who he'd recommend or if he'd help you himself." What husband heard: "I don't know and don't care. If I HAVE to, I'll ask but I'd rather not put myself to any trouble." VERY different interpretations.

All of this, I believe, is attached to drama in his biological family. He's bonding very well with his parents and sister but his brother still refuses to have anything to do with him and is being a pompous ass about it. Last night's Christmas family discussion blossomed out of him talking about the brother situation. A blow-up a couple of weeks ago was the same. I feel like he's taking his frustrations, fears and pain over that and projecting it onto my family. Problems with my family predate things with his family but I feel like they're the scapegoats right now. And it puts me in a painful place. It's like he's constantly picking around, trying to start a fight and get me either worked up so we can fight or get me to start some kind of righteous war with my family so he can lash out at them since he can't at his own.

For the FA, he hasn't mentioned her again. But I'm not going to blast her and I'm not going to try to get my parents to leave her. That's on him.

As for the question about my profession, I'm a print media journalist -- a dying industry, unfortunately. It's not something that was ever my life's passion so I'm happy (and eager) to get into something else. The problem is, I'm not terribly qualified for a lot of things. I am a very good writer, though. I do like a lot of things about my job. I have a lot of flexibility and great coworkers, which counts for a lot but I have been looking for something else for a while now. We are stable financially, despite some unexpected things that put a dent in our savings.

[Ozzie101]

Are there any examples of him actually following through with his threats ie “I tell you what, I think someone should get down to Walmart and tell those evil people who terrible it is that they only put 4 bananas in a pack now instead of 5. Don’t they know that good hard working people like me have one a day. They’re doing it just so I have to buy 2 packs a week, they’re ripping us off. I’m going to go down there and unleash hell fire, actually o think you should do that when you next go grocery shopping. Then I think I’ll write to the CEO.” Does he ever actually follow through or is it that you see the potential in his anger?

I'm trying to think of any I've actually witnessed and I don't think there are. He's talked about really letting someone have it but it's been times I wasn't around. I know he can blow up at people and really fight with them -- I have seen some evidence of that. I see the potential, definitely. And, like I said, I've seen enough to know I think he could. But, usually, he calms down about it and becomes more reasonable. He ends up not following through. As for the times he's told me about, I have no idea if they happened how he said.

[Enabler]

When it comes to ascertaining the facts and therefore your truth, I would believe what you can verify... .

So, from what you have said he talks a lot about his grievances and what he expects others to do about them, but doesn't follow through. Do you think you can remember this next time?

[Ozzie101]

Yes, I think I can. We've only been married two years and his BPD has only really flared up the last four months or so (though there were signs earlier) so I'm still learning. But this is something I've noticed lately. Reading here and reading "Stop Walking on Eggshells" have been eye-openers. So many things make more sense and I'm starting to really notice patterns.

For instance, now I see that any tensions or problems with his family will lead to him lashing out somehow at mine. And that he'll try to maneuver me into an argument or a "it's them or me" moment. I've stopped taking the bait.

And I know I can't even really trust what he says. He'll talk about my parents "constantly posting" about doing stuff with my siblings and their kids. I know they don't do that. The other night when he said it, I very calmly said "I don't remember them doing anything like that -- especially not lately. Can you show me?" He started to pull out his phone, then moved on to rant about something else.

Or he looked me in the eye and said he'd always wanted more kids. Well, he's told me 500 times he doesn't want more. He even had a vasectomy to make sure. He says he can barely handle the one he has (my stepson). He loves blizzards from Dairy Queen. Last night he said how much he hates them and how boring they are. Reality keeps shifting. I'm just trying to keep up. But at this point, I'm getting to where when he's like this, I just sort of nod.

[Enabler]

I know this doesn't sound very respectful and in many respects it's not... .but it is what it is and if it works to build a framework with regards to how to view his emotions and how this plays out in the real world this is a fair way to think about him... .he acts like a child... .

Have you spent any time listening to you step son, kids tend to use the words 'always, forever, never'... .absolute or infinite numbers, very black or white in their thinking. Adults tend to use words like 'typically, normally, sometimes, often, rarely', life for adults is in the grey not the black and white. Most of us will typically use this kind of language when we're stressed, depressed, anxious or sad, it's linked to our fight or flight instincts. It tells you something about his mood in many respects and ultimately says 'I'm in the zone where I feel threatened'. Like a child he kinda means it. When he's calm he'll likely not mean it but at the time it's not worth your efforts to argue it, the adults natural instinct is to rationalize and quantify the statement ... .just accept it for what it is... .him feeling threatened.

Enabler

[Ozzie101]

Oh, that exact thought has entered my head a lot lately. His behavior is very childlike.

In fact, one of his pet phrases is "I don't do complicated." Well, in my view, life is complicated. People are complicated. They're not one or the other. There are many, many people who bother me in some ways, yet I can see their good qualities too. Or when there's someone who behaves in an unlikeable way, I tend to look for the "why" and often that softens my view of them.

To my husband, that's just "making excuses." To me, it's trying to understand.

If someone upsets him or does something wrong, then in his opinion, you should attack them and stand up for yourself. If you don't, you have no guts. I believe that forgiving someone or confronting them in a rational, calm way and coming to an understanding takes just as much if not more courage. He believes that you should just turn around and do it back to them. See how they like it.

He does paint things in black and white. And despite any evidence, will not change his view. My family has some traditions but is also open to changes and suggestions on how to do things differently. I've told him that for years and he's seen it himself. Yet, he still comments to me (and now to his biological family) how inflexible my family is, how things have to be done THIS way, how my parents make demands on when, where and how long. Not once has that happened that I can recall and certainly not during our marriage. Yet, that's how he sees it. It's things like that that really make me bristle because I know they're being painted unfairly. It's fine not to like people but do it for the right reasons.

I can see that he feels threatened by the things he keeps coming back to, like family stuff. I think he feels insecure with my family (and with his) and so lashes out at them and paints them in a way that works for him. He may also be insecure about the kids thing. He's been upfront from the beginning that he doesn't want more kids. And I've assured him that I'm not someone who's needed a child of my own to feel complete. It's not a problem. But he's been bringing it up a lot lately -- about how we're too old, most women seem to really want kids, etc. As it stands now, no, I do NOT want to have a child with him. We have enough to deal with. My connection to my hometown. Yes, I love it and the people there. No, I never want to move back there. But he harps on it in his bad moods. The list goes on. I used to get annoyed (well, still do) but now I'm starting to see patterns and that these are areas where he feels threatened.

Sometimes I wonder if the very fact that I tend to be very calm, compassionate and forgiving makes him feel threatened. Or maybe it makes him feel bad about himself. It seems to really get to him that I don't yell at people or cut them off and tend to be more forgiving and philosophical. He accuses me of "having no balls." But I wonder if it bothers him for another reason. When he's not in a fit, he seems to recognize his behavior and feel bad about it. Maybe he's aware that his way of handling things is wrong and the fact that I won't follow along with what he wants just reinforces that and makes him feel worse?

Anyway, I'm trying to adjust my thinking and just know how he is and how he's going to see things. Like an overgrown child.

[Radcliff]

Glad the dinner went well!  Him getting upset at them leaving seems like a classic abandonment fear.  In fact, I think many folks who have just thrown a successful dinner party might feel a letdown when people leave, and with BPD his was even more powerful.

Sometimes I wonder if the very fact that I tend to be very calm, compassionate and forgiving makes him feel threatened. Or maybe it makes him feel bad about himself. It seems to really get to him that I don't yell at people or cut them off and tend to be more forgiving and philosophical. He accuses me of "having no balls." But I wonder if it bothers him for another reason. When he's not in a fit, he seems to recognize his behavior and feel bad about it. Maybe he's aware that his way of handling things is wrong and the fact that I won't follow along with what he wants just reinforces that and makes him feel worse?

You make a very interesting observation here.  I don't understand why, but oddly sometimes when I was calm and my wife was upset, it made things worse.  I have heard that pwBPD want us to reflect their emotional intensity.  Do you think that you might stand to be more assertive sometimes?  I'm just brainstorming, but might there be an opportunity for you to pair firmness with validation sometimes so you're a bit closer to his intensity but not threatening?  This is not advice, just exploring and asking your thoughts.

RC

[Ozzie101]

That's an interesting point about the abandonment fear. I hadn't thought of that. But it could be true. I hated to see them go but it didn't upset or bother me. Yet with his more intense emotional responses, I can see why it would get to him.

I probably could stand to be more assertive. Actually, I have been much more so lately. Early on in his recent spiral, I was pretty meek and submissive and conciliatory. But the last month or so, I've stood up to him more. In his last real rage, I looked him dead in the eyes and said "No. I'm not doing that. I don't think it's right." He didn't like that, but it didn't ramp up to the level of some other rages he's had. I'm doing a better job of deciding where my boundaries are and what I will and won't do. As I have those boundaries and hold to them, I think that will help with my assertiveness and keep me more on an even keel. Now, what that will mean for our relationship, I don't know. He'll probably see any refusal as me being "not supportive" and "choosing everyone else."

[Radcliff]

The breakthrough realization I had about boundaries is that the other person doesn't have to agree to them, we just do them.  It can be a nice thing if they acknowledge and understand, but I had been acting like I needed the other person to agree before I put a boundary in.  As a result, I had no boundaries!  Many of us are scared to "rock the boat" and as a result don't institute boundaries.  There will be pushback and turbulence, but if you don't have boundaries, you'll lose yourself and your husband will be able to walk over you unchecked -- that is not sustainable in the long term.  So, if we value the relationship, even if they don't like the boundaries, it's the best thing we can do for them.

What is a boundary you're currently struggling with with your husband?

RC

[Enabler]

Quick point but don’t want to detract from Radcliffs direction... .

Misery loves company... .why? We all have an inbuilt desire to feel normal, feel accepted and feel part of the pack. The more chaotic you are (similar to his chaos) the more he feels ‘normal’ as normal is a relative statement. The less chaotic you are the more his chaos is visible, hence more abnormal and isolated he feels.

[Ozzie101]

That's a really good point, Enabler. It makes sense.

As for boundaries, there are probably many. I'm noticing that he seems to get annoyed and frustrated with just about anything I do or say or think that's different from his views. Even something as simple as careful measuring when I'm baking (he doesn't have time for that).

But probably the biggest boundary is in how I handle things and react to other people.
Examples:
My brother-in-law (doctor) refuses to call in a prescription for my husband -- long story, but it wasn't something as simple as an antibiotic or a refill on an inhaler or anything like that. Husband's response is wanting me to call my dad (also a doctor) and tell him how worthless and unhelpful BIL is.
Husband's retirement account isn't doing as well as he'd like. Solution? wants me to call the financial advisor (family friend) and tell her off, then tell my family that she's horrible and they should switch. If they don't switch, obviously they don't care about us.
My sister had a lot of problems as a teen and was cruel to me back then. We've gotten over it now, though we still have a distant relationship. He wants me to call my parents and tell them how horrible she is/was.
My choir director is demanding, dictatorial and occasionally bullies people -- never me, but others I know of. Husband wants me to quit and tell him off and get as many people as possible to quit too. I know the choir director has problems, but he's also a good director and in many ways a good friend who has been there for me in some difficult times. I'm taking a break from choir but have no desire to hurt him.

Those are just a few examples. In every case, I refused to handle things his way. I prefer, if necessary, to calmly address the issue with the person in question and work it out like adults. Both sides may compromise, which is fine with me. That's the way the world works. In some cases, like with my BIL, I see no reason to say or do anything. He was right in his refusal. My father would agree 100%.

Anyway, I think I'm doing a decent job of holding the line there, not doing something I feel is wrong. But he still rages about it and takes it as proof that I'm not on his side and I don't really care. Or he'll remind me how high his stress level is and that I'm not doing anything to help bring it down and how much that's hurting him. It's really frustrating to deal with.

[Enabler]

Have you read anything on invalidation?

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

In short, by not doing what he prescribes he feels like you are invalidating him. The fact that he should not be prescribing these things for you to do is somewhat irrelevant to him. He believes that his advice was good, wise and totally logical... .and here you are 'ignoring him'. So, you have a weird dynamic where he wants to 'enmesh' with you, i.e. he see's you as an extension of him because he has no boundaries and wants to bash your boundaries, and when you don't do as he decree's you are telling him that he is worthless and his 'advice' for want of a better word is nonsense.

Not invalidating is very very very tricky, and I totally struggle with it. HOWEVER, reducing invalidation from your life can make huge steps towards reducing his feeling of discomfort and insignificance. Even lines like "Hmm, let me think about how that would play out" or "Owww, okay if that's how you feel about that I guess you need to have that conversation with them yourself" (light chipper agreeable nothing to do with me voice). It's about batting it back into his court for him to deal with in a non-judgmental way. "You feel pretty passionate about this, I'll let you run with that."

Enabler

[Ozzie101]

Those are good suggestions. I'm trying to work on keeping calm and keeping a light tone when dealing with him when he's like that and it does seem to help some to prevent escalation.

I can see how my refusal could invalidate him and make him more upset and defensive. You're right -- very tricky. I don't want to make him feel worthless. Yet there are certain things I just will not do.

In the past when I've tried to say, "Well, that's something you'll need to talk about with him" he's gotten even more upset, accusing me of adding to his stress by making him "be the bad guy."

[Enabler]

Could you say something along the lines of:
 "I just don't feel as passionately about it as you do"
 "I'm not sure what good financial advice would look like so it's really difficult for me to judge whether or not she's bad, you seem to know"
 "I wouldn't want to speak for you"
 "If you think this is the right thing to do, in what way do you feel like this would make you the bad guy?"

Importantly you need to EXTRACT yourself from the conversation before/when it becomes rhetorical and learn that sometimes you just need to look at the ball he's dropped on the floor and say "Oh look, there's a ball on the floor"... .EXIT STAGE LEFT. Saying nothing is saying something and that something is okay to say.

[Ozzie101]

I have said some versions of those and will keep up with that. Though I haven't asked him why he feels like that would make him the bad guy. Of course, the other issue there is, "Why is it not OK for me to make you the bad guy but it's fine for me to be one?" That would probably just escalate things, though, so I've never pointed that out.

And yes, sometimes not saying anything says a lot. Knowing him, though, he'd keep picking and picking at me to get me to respond. Patience and calm are things I need to practice and I am getting better at those.

[Enabler]

Some people are allergic to peanuts, some people are allergic to gluten... .some people are allergic to guilt and shame. Any intense emotion is felt significantly more... .and it’s intollerable and physical. Abandonment for example has been described as equivalent to being a 4yr old separated from its parents in the middle of Times Square. Pretty brutal I can only imagine. So, what might just be water off a ducks back to you is felt with fierce intensity by him. The issue is, the initial emotion that causes him to want to act is also intense... .so outrage, fear, intimidation, anxiety, depression... .eg he feels disappointment, anxiety & worry  with regards to your financial position, he cannot be responsible for this so needs someone to blame... .he is the victim... .in steps the financial planner, she should have a crystal ball, he pays her so it is her fault that things didn’t turn out the way he expected... .she is the perpetrator... .he doesn’t want to feel the negative emotions associated with confronting the lady with his intense anger and disappointment as that too would be painful, and he likely knows he would feel guilty afterwards that he cut her off (and he never wants to see her again to remind him of the guilt he harbours for his actions)... .but hey, I can get W to do my dirty work, she can relay my anger and ensure her family cut her off as well, the. He doesn’t have to deal with the shame or the guilt... .you are his rescuer. THIS IS CALLED THE KARPMAN TRIANGLE. There is a full essay on it in the tools section, I’m on my mobile so a challenge to copy the link.

Okay, so, now you might understand the dynamic at the beginning... .let’s play that through:

You tell FA she’s fired, you now become the perpetrator and FA the victim... .not good as you end up leaving as bad guy. Maybe he adds to the mix by stepping in at the last minute saying “sorry for my wife’s communication, I know it’s not your fault, please continue being FA” or he later says “I never wanted that”.

You don’t tell FA she’s fired, rather than rescuer you are now perpetrator as you won’t do what he demanded was needed to rescue him... .so instead he goes to you family to try and get them to rescue him from you... .

How do you stop joining the triangle? Become Coach!

Google 3 faces of a victim, it’s a great essay and it describes all players in the triangle and how they all bring their own dysfunction to the party.

Would love to hear your thoughts

Enabler xx

[Enabler]

I’m answer to the threads title... .yes it is partly you, you are part of the dynamic and as much a player in the game. Without you he is shouting at shadows, without you he has to bare the full consequences of his emotions and subsequent actions. The key is aweness and removing yourself from the merry dance, responding (not reacting) differently blocking him from placing you in tricky positions. It actually requires some investment in your own emotional anxiety as it will hurt, like leaving a baby to cry itself to sleep. But it will become instinctive.

[Ozzie101]

Definitely partly me. I know I'm playing a role in this. That's why I'm trying to be more aware and step away, stop feeding the beast, as it were. And I know some things I've done (some unwittingly) have contributed to the problem.

I had read about the triangle before and it makes a lot of sense. To some degree, I see that I'm a rescuer. I like helping people and get a lot of satisfaction from it. That can be positive. But I probably rely on that too much and, yes, enjoy the positive reinforcement I get from it. And in response to his problems, I have been taking on more and more. My husband toggles between victim and persecutor. Lately, I think I've been more successfully moving to the center. I've stayed calm and refused to do what he says or play into the "You're not helping me" accusations. Instead I offer to help in the ways I can and am willing to do so. But draw the line elsewhere. Also, when he has a good point or I think he's right about something, I admit it.

[Radcliff]

I think Enabler has hit on something here.  The first step is recognizing and enforcing boundaries.  Some of us struggle with those first steps quite a bit.  At least for the four or so situations you outlined, you seem to have a good grasp of the basics -- knowing where you want the boundary and sticking to it.  All of those cases were "easy" calls -- so clearly not his business to be in your business, or to expect you to do his dirty work for him.  You should congratulate yourself at being able to recognize and enforce those boundaries.  While those judgments seem easy to me now, they weren't a year ago!

I like what Enabler says about adding to your game by thinking of ways to validate your husband in appropriate ways (without validating the invalid).  One thing that I've found is that as I gained confidence with boundaries, I got better at doing it with less drama.  If I felt threatened, I'd enforce the boundary with a little too much tension or energy.  Our pwBPD are hypersensitive, and can detect even small amounts of tension.  Once you are confident, you'll have more awareness free to manage doing it with a little more grace.

One trick is to pause for one breath to compose your response to him.  "You might be right," is a very useful phrase for many situations, unless integrity requires that you not validate what he's said.  "Thank you, I should give that some thought," is a useful phrase that allows you to disagree with him a little more inside your head, but still say it with integrity.  Another technique is to reflect back what he has said, "So, you think she might be trying to take advantage of me?... .Thanks for looking out for me, let me think about that."

Two main principles to keep in mind are:
* What he is saying is real to him, and if you disagree with it directly, he will find that threatening.
* You must maintain your integrity and not invalidate yourself

With those two constraints in mind, use your creativity to think about what to say.  It takes practice, and it won't always work out the way you want, but it's pretty satisfying when you start to get traction and reduce the conflict a bit!

RC

[Ozzie101]

Yes, that's very helpful. In the moment, I'm more likely to be tense or keyed-up and that's not going to help the situation at all. Taking a moment to pause to keep calm and come up with a good response could be very valuable, I can see. I need to do some planning ahead in calmer times, think through scenarios and how I would respond.

[Enabler]

Being kind and helpful is a wonderful human quality to have, it’s truly honourable and I wouldn’t like you to think I was suggesting you lose that. I too am helpful.

But here’s the thing, this is what ‘normal rescuing’ looks like... .

Help help I’m drowning!
Here’s the rubber ring, grab a hold and I’ll pull you in
Oh thanks man I would have died if it wasn’t for you pulling me in (flowers delivered)
 “victim” continues along their life grateful for your act of kindness)

This is what dysfunctional rescuing looks like... .

Help help I’m downing... .you there rescue me
Here’s the rubber ring grab hold and I’ll pull you in
Heeeeey! You hit me in the head you goddam idiot, how could you do that are you blind or something.
Do you want me to pull you in the boat or are you just going to be rude to me.
I can’t believe you would say that to me after you tried to kill me with the rubber ring.
You pull them in, are you okay
Yeah, fine thanks no thanks to you.
You turn your back
They jump in the water again... .


Be helpful, just pick up on the dynamic quick and extract yourself from it ASAP.

Enabler

[Ozzie101]

Great analogy! I do know that's not what you were suggesting. It's good to help. But it's important to do it in a healthy way.

In our case, it goes something like this:
Help! I'm drowning!
Here's the rubber ring. Grab hold and I'll pull you in!
Hey! What good's a rubber ring? Use a motorboat, you idiot!
Well, I don't have a motorboat, but I'm sure this ring will do the trick.
That is completely unhelpful. I don't want the damn ring. Are you stupid? You should know that only a motorboat will help me. Why should I even have to tell you this?
The motorboat is not an option. Do you want the ring or not?
I pull him in. He sulks.
OK?
Yes. Fine. But you'd better get a #$@%$# motorboat for next time or you're no good to me. Obviously I'll have to spell it all out for you in tiny detail since you're incapable of knowing how to rescue someone properly.

[Ozzie101]

So, last night we had another go-around about the financial advisor and my family -- yet again.

I knew something was coming. We're getting ready to go out of town, which always stresses him out. He worries about packing (even though that's something I now take care of). He was practically having a meltdown over my stepson not having enough/the right kind of clothes. Not only are we going out of town, we're going to see his mom -- which is a big stressor for him. Then we're going to see his biological family for several days and it's the first time my stepson will meet them. The family visit is great, but there's still stress for him regarding the brother he hasn't met and who has resisted any suggestions that they have any contact. So, I knew he was primed for a mood.

A friend came over for dinner but was late coming. My husband started snapping that we should just go out, or just go ahead and eat without him, saying friend had responded to a text saying OK. Well, when he contacted friend again, friend said he'd never texted that and hadn't gotten what my husband said he sent. Husband said "Well, I always delete my messages anyway, but I know I sent it and he responded." Not sure I believe him about things like that now but I didn't comment. Friend came and it was fine. Husband was more keyed up than usual and went into one of his anti-doctor rants, which happen every now and then.

The financial thing is still upsetting him and he started pushing again to switch FA. Again, I told him that's fine and I'm fine telling her we're changing to someone else but I told him that before I do that, I want to find that someone else so we're going straight from one to the other. I also said I was going to write to her in my own way. That didn't sit well. I'm not firm enough. I'm not making enough of a statement. I'm not scaring her (which I should). I'm not standing up for him and for us. She's losing us money and is incompetent. He insisted he's been complaining about this for months. I know he hasn't. He's only mentioned it in the last week. But he's certain he has and that I've just been ignoring him and haven't acted on it to help him.

He started going into his "Well, maybe we should have all our finances separate. Maybe you should have to pay for half of everything. Your salary can't cover that. How would that make you feel? What would you do then?" then would get very smug. He started talking about divorce and how his lawyer is a real shark and how I would be left in a bad position. About how when looking for a financial advisor, he would want someone whose first questions would be whether or not and how to protect his accounts and retirement from me.

Then it moved to my family. We're out of town for Christmas and decided to send something around, suggesting a few dates available and a different kind of get-together so we can see everyone. There are a lot of busy people involved and there's so far no one date that works for everyone.
His issues:
1) We're low on the totem pole. No one really cares about us or would go out of their way for us.
2) Some of them are snooty and don't want to do what we suggested or come to our house (which is perfectly nice).
3) They look down on him for being divorced.
4) I don't stand up to them for him.
5) They don't treat my stepson the same as all the other kids.

I don't believe any of that is true. I have confronted family members about issues that were genuine problems. Have I handled it the way he would with lots of profanity and yelling? No. But I got my point across.
No one cares that he's divorced. Yet he insists that they do.
As for my stepson, my parents treat him the same. My sisters don't, but then they hardly ever see him and haven't really developed any kind of relationship with him. They're kind to him and their kids love to play with him.
My husband's idea last night was for him and stepson to just bow out of family stuff for a couple of years. I told him that by being around people, you build relationships and become more a part of things. By pulling himself and his son (who enjoys the gatherings) out, he's just prolonging that process (or stopping it dead in its tracks). The only positive from that might be reducing his stress about the events. But if the goal is for people to accept him and his son and feel comfortable with them, that would really derail things.

In this case, we got the jump on things about Christmas. We won't be there for Thanksgiving, where there will probably be talk about the next holiday, so we put our own schedule and suggestions out there. I thought that was good. But now he's paranoid that they're going to talk about us and make plans without us.
The problem is, there's no December date that works for everyone. I know people are busy and if my parents had sent it out, they would have gotten the same response. Husband is not sure about that. I suggested just doing it on the date when most people can be there. He didn't like the idea of that. And if we end up doing it in January, he and his son "lose" because everyone else will probably get together around Christmas. To me, it doesn't matter so much when we get together as long as we do. If it's a while after Christmas, who cares? It's still a family celebration with presents. My stepson won't care or notice either way. He's only 8. If they want to get together somehow on Christmas Eve, it's not like they'd be doing it to spite us or go behind our backs. We made the decision to go out of town. There are consequences for that. We can't expect everyone else to reorder their lives for us, just as we shouldn't have to for them.

He's really hung up on this winning and losing thing -- the competition. The testing people and finding fault no matter what. Everyone could have said "Hey, this date works for all of us! Sounds fun!" and he would have found some way the wording was troublesome or offensive.

He complains that 2 years is plenty of time for everything to gel and be normal and for everything to go smoothly -- with them and with me. I feel like there's no set timeframe and that sometimes things take more time. He's very introverted. He doesn't talk to people much at these things and the noise and chaos of a lot of kids in addition to his general family aversion leaves him very stressed -- and that comes off him in waves. I know they can pick up on that. And if we don't go to a lot of things, or when we do he sits in a corner, yeah, it's going to take longer. But he's not happy with that.

He sent another email asking about other dates and no one's answered yet. I don't think that's too odd but he takes it very personally and I can see why. Yet I have no control over them and basically end up sitting in the road, waiting for the crash, knowing I'm going to be crushed in the middle.

The thing is, I know in some ways he's right. I know I haven't been as open about some family things as I could have been. Frankly, by this point, I'm scared to bring them up at all because I know something will happen. I know he's hyper-sensitive to family stuff and my parents are figuring that out but the others don't know. I can't control their reactions and what they do and they don't know how what they say or do may come across. I feel completely torn and like a failure as a wife. I'm sure I haven't stood up for him as well as I could have. But at the same time, I don't think they're all that wrong either.

So, I'm stuck. I'm torn between a husband I love but has very real needs and problems and some unmeetable expectations and a family that I love but is far from perfect -- yet lacking the full knowledge of the situation.

[Enabler]

Howdy Ozzie101,

You are trying to make sense of nonsense. The only way I have ever managed to make sense of this nonsense is by putting it into the context of BPD or more precisely childhood trauma.

Please can you give me some details regarding your husbands Childhood. You eluded to him seeing his Mom... .but then talked about his bio family and estranged bio brother.

I think it's VERY important to understand this element of the dynamic to fully understand him and the impacts (I suspect)(what I suspect) has happened to him. My guess is that you come from a relatively healthy family, bio parents still together, relatively close knit, do the family Thanksgiving / Christmas gigs. There's some family niggles but basically you get along albeit it different individuals with your own individuality.

I think there's some things that need more understanding.

Enabler
 

[Ozzie101]

You've got my family dynamic down pretty well. They're not perfect, as I well know, and there's been drama in the past (most stemming from my sister's anorexia during her teen years). But they mean well.

Here's his family history:
He was adopted as a newborn and is an only child. He has told me his parents were very controlling and I've seen for myself that his mother is very passive-aggressive and unbending in a lot of ways. She also has an unhealthy way of treating him at times. For example, when he divorced, she told him how that would make people look at him differently and would cause a lot of problems. True to some extent but not really. Also, when he gained weight in college, she criticized him and told him how unhealthy it was and that no one would want to be with him. Result? He's hyper-sensitive to the fact that he's divorced (convinced my family looks down on him, though they don't -- there are other divorced people in my family and there's never been a problem) and to his weight (almost to an eating disorder level). I'm well-aware of the damage his mother caused. Also, the way he's distrustful and hyper-critical of people is exactly the way she is. His father was also controlling, but less-so. He says his father was a lot like me in a lot of ways -- kind, would go out of his way to help people, etc. He got along with his dad better. His father committed suicide several years ago when he found out he was in the early stages of alzheimer's.

Over the years, he's gone through periods where he wouldn't talk to either one of them and rarely goes to see his mom. I think his mother has some real mental/emotional problems of her own, though I tend to kind of feel sorry for her (she must be very unhappy). I don't defend her to him, though, and I hate the hurt she's caused him.

Some of it is their unfortunate way of parenting and some of it is their personalities just really not mixing well.

Earlier this year, thanks to a new law, he was able to find his biological family. His parents actually married each other, are still married, and had two more children. He's now in very regular contact with his bio parents and sister and we've met them. They're already forming a tight bond and he's said that for the first time he understands why I might actually enjoy spending time with family. It's something he's always hated.

The only fly in the ointment is his brother, who, according to the others, is a control freak and kind of a jerk. He's said he's not ready to meet or have anything to do with us yet and doesn't want to discuss it further. This combined with other stories about him (dislikes sister's boyfriend because of his job and refuses to allow him in his house) makes us not too excited to have anything to do with him. Husband says he doesn't care but his only fear is that it will cause problems and damage the relationship with his parents and sister -- though they've made it clear they're all very excited and committed to the new relationship and think brother/son is being a baby about things.

So, there's been a LOT of stress and drama for him regarding family. I can get that and I try to be sensitive to it. The problem is, he'll rage against my family and accuse them of things and project and I know that what he's saying is unfair to them and untrue. They're more a product of things his mother twisted around in him and of frustrations he's having with other people. For instance, when the trouble with the brother started, he started focusing a lot of his anger at my sisters.

I can't control them and their reactions and while I tell him that I can understand why he feels a certain way (and point things out/confront my family when they do something hurtful or wrong), I can't agree that they're horrible people who need to be shut out of our lives. When he's in a mood, if I don't agree with him on their being hateful people, then I'm accused of putting them first, not loving him and thinking they're perfect.

So, I feel torn. I understand where he's coming from and where he gets these thoughts and feelings. But I can't validate what he says or do what he wants me to do. And any slight misstep by them triggers a crisis.

This all happened last night -- which is usually when his dysregulations happen. This morning, he sounds far more reasonable in his texts, talking about how he knows he needs to get his temper under control and not react so strongly to things. Mentioned anger management again, which I encouraged.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Ozzie101]

Another thing he did and which he does a lot: asking very vaguely worded questions and getting annoyed when I don't figure out what he's asking.

He called while I was driving home from work (in rush-hour traffic after a 10-hour day) and asked "Do you think I need to talk to someone about where we're staying this weekend?" I thought he meant talking to his son about the three different places we're staying this weekend. He got really short with me and said "Never mind. Obviously I'll have to talk to you when you get home and can draw pictures." A few minutes later he called back and apologized for being condescending. He explained he was asking whether he needed to tell stepson's mother about staying with the biological family (and a sister who lives with her boyfriend -- though stepson won't know one way or the other if she's married or not). I told him that was his call but I didn't think it mattered. So, all is ok. But later when he was in his mood, he again brought it up and how I just don't pick up on hints or figure things out, despite how smart I'm supposed to be. Well, there were no hints. Just a vague question, totally out of any context. Before this, there was no mention at all of his ex-wife, of staying with family. Yet I was supposed to know exactly what he was asking and the fact that I couldn't is another sign that maybe we're just not cut out for each other.

When he goes on about all this stuff, he almost sounds convincing sometimes and I start to wonder if maybe he's right and I'm just stupid or a bad wife. Yet, when I look back on it the next day, I think that, no, he's being ridiculous. My mind won't stop spinning.

[Enabler]

I’ve been out on a work do and had a few and  on the train home... .the info you have provided is VERY interesting and certainly ticks a lot of boxes. I will reply tomorrow once I’ve slept off the bottle of red... .or 2.

In short, he speaks in incomplete sentences, you hear some of it and try and work out what he’s saying... .you’re never going to be able to, he’s likely spent hours ruminating about this stuff and somehow the muddle between what conversations he’s actually had with you and what he thinks he’s had with you is blurred. It’s not intentional and even though he is offensive in his narrative, it’s kinda not meant to be.

I found a book called toxic parents excellent in understanding how a variety of different parental experiences can play out in adult life. Irrespective of whether it’s applicablr I believe it should be compulasary education material. I whizzed through it in 2 days. Astounding.

Be back tomorrow when I’ve slept on it. Stick with us and hold tight. Big hugs from over the pond xxxxxx

Enabler

[Ozzie101]

Thank you, Enabler! Having support and advice from people who understand is more helpful than I can say!

[Radcliff]

When he goes on about all this stuff, he almost sounds convincing sometimes and I start to wonder if maybe he's right and I'm just stupid or a bad wife. Yet, when I look back on it the next day, I think that, no, he's being ridiculous. My mind won't stop spinning.

Your ability to understand what's going on in your life and articulate it is exceptionally good.  But, having been there, I totally understand how the constant messages from our pwBPD can still turn us sideways!

I'm sorry to hear that his father committed suicide.  That must have been a massive hit on his abandonment vulnerability.

You mentioned his willingness to think about anger management.  Has the topic of DBT ever come up?

RC

[Ozzie101]

Unfortunately he's against talk therapy. He's tried it before and said it was useless. Feels therapists are scammers who hook you and keep you going to get more $$.

[Enabler]

Okay, I’m back in the land of the living after a day of meetings... .boo. Happy giving thanks day all you lovely Americans.

So, the family dynamic is very important. It likely impacts him in a number of ways, specifically I don’t know as I’m not him or his T, but generally speaking as follows. From what I have read about PTSD or CPTSD is someone suffers/witnesses an event or series of events which are so terrible or weird that they cannot cognitively process them, they can’t understand why these things happen and therefore this event floats around in their RAM indefinitely rather than being understood, rationalised in some way and stored in ones hard drive memory. So, this thing is always there, perpetually interacting with their daily lives. The term “clear my head” is rather revant here, have you ever been mega stressed, tons of things on your mind and you just can’t think about anything else... .well this ‘thing’ or event stays in someone’s head blocking them from ever clearing their thoughts. Because it’s there it interacts with daily conscious and subconscious decisions, opinions and reactions, even if they are totally unassociated things.

So your husband was adopted. That has to be a very traumatic thing to learn about when he was older or even worse remember when it happened. Questions like; who am I? Why didn’t my parents want me? Why couldn’t my parents sort themselves out enough to keep me? I must be bad. It’s hardly as though he could blame his own parents for being disasters, humans just aren’t programmed to do that. So then he lives with his adoptive parents, his new mum nags his, critiques him... .TELLS HIM HES BAD. My guess is that this started way before college or the divorce and it’s been constant for his entire life. The hand that feeds him and is supposed to love him is also the hand that beats him (maybe not physically but emotionally). He’s placed in a conflicted situation where he is drawn to the very thing that is going to hurt him. It’s nonsense and unprocessable especially as a child. He gets stuck, stuck in a world where everything is black and white and everything is rules based... .you should, you must, always, never, forever. He’s stuck with a childish emotional thought process. “If my parents don’t like me enough to be good parents why should anyone want to be with me?”.

Have you ever heard a kid talk about something awesome they really want but they can’t have or more specifically someone else has. Sometimes a kid will totally paint the thing black as if it was the worst thing ever, they may even follow that up by rubbishing the other kid who has that thing as such a show off, they’re running it in my face. Your family for its failings is something that your husband desperately wants, like super super wants, in fact that’s all he has ever ever wanted. He wanted to be wanted, he wanted to part of something and he’s envious of what you have. He rubbishes it because he can’t have it, even if he could have a close relationship with your family it would never be his family, it would be yours.

Next and this must be very challenging for him. His bio brother... .so he got to stay at home and be with mum and dad, they bothered for him, they didn’t bother to hold their  together  for me but they would for him... .I must be bad, I must be worthless... .and I don’t just mean did a bad thing... .I AM BAD, I AM USELESS ... .his whole being.

So, he hates himself and wants to bring everything down to his level so he feels normal. Trying to get a relationship with his parents is his way of fixing the wound in his soul, getting what he always wanted and mending his soul. He wants to give them an opportunity to be good parents.

It’s complex and I may be way off whack... .BUT, you thought you knew your husband, I thought I knew my wife... .but there’s a whole load of stuff that’s going on inside his head which he doesn’t talk about because he’s loved with it for 10, 20, 30, 40, 50yrs now and frankly he’s not consciously aware of it despite it being a huge part of him. There’s a good quoteI heard recently

“Be kind, because everyone is fighting a hard battle.”

Some people don’t even know they’re fighting that battle anymore... .a battle against themselves.

Enabler

[Ozzie101]

Wow! All that is very astute.

Meeting his bio family, he knows now that he was wanted but his parents were teens and their home lives were bad so they did the best they could. He knows that and says it often but I'm sure it still stings.

And I'd wondered if the thing with my family could have some jealousy pain and yearning in it. Very likely.

The problem is, what do I do? It's not like they can or will go away or I can fix his family or history. I want to help and not hurt.

[Enabler]

Morning Ozzie101,

I read this book a year or so ago and found it one of the most enlightening books I have ever read. Like you I come from a pretty normal family, we have a few quirks but on the hole my parents were good, emotionally stable and listened to me... .I really had no clue about the long term impacts of seemingly insignificant and of course more serious parental traumas. The life long change in the way an individual perceives the world, reacts to situations and receives/gives love was a true eyeopener.

Toxic Parents - Susan Forward

https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Toxic_Parents.html?id=E31QLmBcX14C&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

This is just the google preview and the full book is available on Amazon etc. Only your H can help himself on moving to a state of acceptance regarding his childhood. He has likely spent his entire life dealing with a pervasive feeling of being different, unwanted and unloved... .and that's not going to go away without a serious amount of work. Once he has done this work he can then go about starting to change the behaviours and thought processes that he's developed over his life to protect that hurt... .you experience the defense mechanisms he's developed to defend himself. Moving from a state of permanent defense, accepting that once upon a time when he was a child he was a victim... .but now he is not a victim and doesn't need to be on the defensive is tough work. This book could be for him... .but for now it's for you... .it's for you to gain some insight into his world and gain greater empathy.

Enabler 

[Ozzie101]

Enabler, your comments about "rules" and "black and white" really hit home. He frequently complains about all the rules there were when he was growing up. And he definitely has a tendency to see things as good or bad. He always says "I don't do complicated." By saying that, he doesn't think he means he sees things one way or another, but it does turn out that way, I think.

Part of my problem is, I can see how his parents (mother in particular) did damage to him. Yet, at the same time, I'm no longer sure how much I can trust what he's said about her. I've seen him really misinterpret or misrepresent other people (friends, family, coworkers) and I can't help but wonder if he's done that some with her. I'm sure there's truth in it, it's just that I can't tell how much to believe.

Thank you for the book recommendation. I've given the preview a look and it's very interesting -- makes a lot of sense. At the same time, I don't know that I could ever show the book to him. The thing is, he's convinced my family situation is toxic. He'd see that and immediately say "Ah-ha! There! You fit into the 'godlike parents' section. You're the one who needs this book." He'd turn everything around on me and my family.

When he's in a mood or we're having a discussion, he usually throws in comments about how I think my parents are perfect and can do no wrong. That's not at all true, as I've told him MANY times. I know they have faults and I'll freely admit to them (while still loving, trusting and respecting them). Yet, he keeps going back to it.

Also, while he hasn't mentioned it in a while, he's also decided that my father or grandfather (or perhaps an uncle) molested me as a child and then brainwashed me to repress the memory. I don't even bother to dignify that one with a reply anymore at this point. Denying it gets me nowhere with him. But it's a horrible, sickening thing for him to talk about and so incredibly unfair to the men in my family who aren't/weren't perfect but who would NEVER do anything like that.

We had a good holiday weekend -- one night with his mother and then the rest of the weekend with his bio family. He wasn't as relaxed this time, partly because his son (8 years old) was with us meeting them for the first time. That wasn't a problem, really. He was easy-going about it. But he's kind of hyper and has a tendency to get a little too comfortable and familiar with adults, where he starts talking to them like he would to other kids. It's pretty disrespectful at times and he crosses over from cute and bubbly to obnoxious. I think he's a good kid but is very spoiled and needs some firmer boundaries but H gets frustrated and doesn't know how to deal with it and S's mother has a tendency to give him whatever he wants to prevent meltdowns. Anyway, he was afraid S would give his family a bad impression of his parenting. I assured him it was fine and he was doing a good job of reining him back in.

Anyway, we got home, dropped S off with his mom and I could tell H's mood was dark. He was very irritable and was trying to pick fights. Made constant little passive-aggressive comments ("I thought we'd make better time. We were doing well earlier [when I was driving]." "You're the one who has this whole 'process' at night. So, no, it's fine. Let's just go home and eat leftovers instead of eating out. Even though I suggested we go to Restaurant X." -- followed by my saying "Hey, I think Restaurant X sounds great." "No, never mind. Forget it. We're almost home.") I was able to basically ignore all this and just stay neutral and let him go on. I knew he was probably feeling let down and sad about having to say goodbye so I did my best to just be loving and understanding.

Then he brought up my family again and the pre-Christmas get-together we suggested. One sister and her family can't be there because her girls have an out-of-town gymnastics meet. Said if they got back in time they'd come. In my email, I suggested pizza or bowling. The other sister who has kids said bowling would be a challenge for her kids (one is only 4 and has been diagnosed as high-functioning autistic) but said pizza would be great. That sent H into a real mood. He and S love bowling. So, her turning down bowling brought responses "Oh come on. She can just deal with it." "See? We're not a priority. They're going to try to dictate what we do and run things." Of course, he was misremembering the email, thinking I'd said pizza AND bowling. When he looked back and saw I'd given them an option, he got more annoyed with me, then harped more on his being certain my sisters rule everything.

I can see why he feels that way to some extent. I do tend to be rather passive -- always have been. But then, for many years, I was a lone wolf in the family without kids or a husband to consider and pretty happy to just go with the flow so it's taking some time for me to adapt to being more assertive. He wants us to speak up more and make our preferences known. I'm fine with that. But the way he talks about it isn't "Hey, we're part of this family too and we need to be sure we're speaking up for ourselves." It's more, "Look, they're running the show. They don't like our ideas. Fine. We're just not going to like any of theirs. And when they shoot us down, we'll know where we stand. If they don't like what we want to do, then we'll come up with our own plan and people will have to choose. Them or us."

Basically, I feel like he's wanting to start a war or something. I knew where this was heading when we came up with the Christmas idea but I went ahead because I thought it was important for us (especially my stepson) to have some sort of holiday gathering with my family and the best way to do that was to make a suggestion ourselves.

My family can't do anything right, basically. They can take us up on a suggestion of a get-together but when my sister says bowling is a little over-stimulating for her younger daughter with special needs, she's being a drama queen who's trying to run things. My other sister invites everyone to her lake house for Thanksgiving? Well, she's just being rude and thoughtless, making people drive 1.5 hours and stay in a hotel for that. OK, maybe, but no one had to take her up on it. They can't come to our Christmas celebration because of a gym meet (for which they've already registered)? Well, we're obviously a low priority. We should turn down everything they come up with.

This is all starting to get to me. I live in constant stress and fear because I know no matter what they say or do, he will find fault with it. I love them and want them to be a part of our lives and want to be a part of theirs. But I know they can't win. And they don't know what's going on. So, when they say or do things that are pretty innocuous (in my eyes) or that, yes, are thoughtless but not bad enough to make them hateful people, I cringe knowing it's going to set off a rant. Since I've known them my whole life, I have a decent idea what their thought processes are and where they're coming from. He jumps to worst-case scenario automatically. And I feel like I can't do anything. Defend them and I look like I'm siding against him. Agree with him and I'm trashing and eventually alienating people I love and care for.

I realize that he's most likely lashing out at them for the reasons you suggested. And that's what keeps me from getting really angry. I try to remind myself of how he must feel and to be understanding. I just can't figure out how to handle it in the here and now. I feel like he's trying to estrange me from them and I can't go along with that. I do everything I can. I'm supportive of his building a relationship with his bio family, making them a priority. I don't argue back on most of his comments about my people, even when they're unfair. But it's not enough. Understanding where he's coming from helps but I really don't know what to do. I wish he'd agree to counseling. But for him, he doesn't have time or patience for "answering a lot of questions." And, as I said, he sees therapists as scammers who get people hooked on them and keep them on a string for years all for money.

Last night he was trying to pick a fight, I could tell. I wasn't in the mood and I knew it was coming from a place of pain for him so I just didn't take the bait and the evening ended with us just watching some TV. He started to do things like put his hand on my leg, make silly faces, obviously trying to make things better. But I know the problem isn't over. And I'm counting down the days until Dec. 9 when the family thing will be over. I used to love the Christmas season. This is the second year in a row I've felt borderline hate.

[Enabler]

Ozzie101,

You have 2 lives, one when your H is dysregulating for whatever reason, and the other is when he is not. In the dysregulated period you have a set of behaviours designed specifically to minimise the damage he does during that period, and shorten the period of time with which he is in that zone. During that period it is utterly pointless to attempt to achieve anything productive... .other than getting him out of the zone with minimal damage. In the other life when he is not dysregulating and he is rubbing your leg attempting to be nice one is stuck with the dilemma of repairing and recovering from the damage caused during the dysregulation, ensuring the message that bad behaviour is not tolerated is sent, and actually enjoying each others company.

In his dysregulated periods he says silly stuff that isn't based on anything like facts... .it could in fact be based on his own experience... .either way it's not founded in reality. The natural tenancy is to want to correct the narrative... ."No no no there are no unicorns living under our house making fairy cakes for Walmart" or "No no no I was not sexually abused as a kid" or "No no no I am not reading this Toxic Parents book because I have finally realised that I have huge issues stemming from my childhood." All these statements 'invalidate' what he is saying. You are essentially saying, everything you think is totally bat  crazy, only a complete nut-job would think that. You are pushing against him. You know it's not true, he thinks it's true, you want to convince him it isn't true.

So... .rather than pushing against his suppositions, why not pull, go with him. There's a couple of ways I know that you can go with his flow. Firstly, reflecting back what you have heard. Avoid personalising it, avoid sarcasm and avoid any critical words.

"Just so I understand, you think my Dad touched me when I was a kid and I have no recollection as I've buried it so deep?"... ."Yeah"... ."Wow, well the human brain is pretty powerful, I'm sure this does happen. Wouldn't you I remember anything? Like even the smallest detail? Being touched by your Dad would be horrible."

The other way is validate the invalid in such a way that it defuses all the power that he wants to project onto you. This way would specifically work when he is trying to hurt you.

"Hey, you're reading Toxic Parents because your parents messed with your head"... ."Yup, it's pretty interesting, let me know if you want to take a look after me, although you might have to wait till Mary down the road has finished with it as she wants to read it too".

Ju jitsu parenting... .or an adaptation of... .you use the power they put into the punch against them. www.drcachildress.org/asp/admin/getFile.asp?RID=63&TID=6&FN=pdf


Enabler

[Ozzie101]

You're right. It is like living two lives. When he's not in "the zone," I can remember why I love him and married him and I try to enjoy it, to be open and loving and encourage the better behavior. It's not always easy, though, because I know another dysregulation is probably just around the corner and more and more I feel the self-protection cocoon staying in place.

I'm working on not pushing against him. I no longer counter his "Your dad must have raped you" statements. I've said some variation of "I've heard that can happen" and then I just move on. Also trying to really get it into my head that by arguing, I'm making it worse and it comes across to him in a way it wouldn't to most people. It's hard to do in the moment.

With my family stuff, I'm basically having to play it by ear, walking the tightrope of trying to minimize damage. I just keep finding myself in a difficult position. He'll try to corner me. I'll try to validate his feelings while not invalidating the invalid. Then he'll pick up on it.
H: Your sisters are selfish, controlling, hateful people.
M: I know you feel that way and I can understand. They do tend to live in their own worlds and can be thoughtless at times.
H: But you don't think they're hateful, awful people? Why can't you just say they're hateful?
M: No. I can't say they're hateful. They have some good qualities but, yes, they can be selfish and thoughtless.
H: See? You're taking their side again! You will NEVER take my side. You will ALWAYS defend your family. I don't know why we even got married. This is exactly what my ex-wife did.

Maybe I need to work on my word choices. But I can't and won't say, "Yes, my sisters are hateful." Yet the way conversations go, he won't let me skirt around it.

You've given me some good things to try next time.

[Enabler]

“So what you’re saying is that because I don’t find my famil hateful we shouldn’t have got married? Have I got that right?”

“Because I don’t agree with you I cannot love you? Have I got that right?”

Keep yourself in the middle of the court and hit the ball passively back to him. If he responds with nonsense “yes” move to exit. “Okay, I need to think about that”... .“wow, hmmm I’ve not thought about things in that way before, give me some time on that.”  PwBPD are shown to ruminate on things, of left with a thought he will spin it round in his head. When he’s less dysregilated he’s likely to continue to consider that supposition and maybe come to a different better conclusion.

[Ozzie101]

Yep, that's often what happens. The next day he'll apologize and tell me he knows his way of thinking isn't the right way. Usually followed by "It's the way my mind works. I can't help it. But I want to get better about it."

Pointing out the ridiculous, the way you and the article you linked suggested, sounds like a really good tactic to try.

He'll go into divorce mode and then a couple of days later he's in tears saying he can't lose me or texting that his biggest fear is that with his behavior, one day he'll come home and I'll be gone. So, in some ways I'm learning if I stay calm and non-confrontational, eventually it will stop and he'll think more clearly the next day or two.

Before it starts again.

[Enabler]

Your response to that suggestion could be something along the lines of SET “I am doing everything I can to equip myself to deal with the issues we have in our relationship, it must suck knowing you’ve said such horrible things and I’d feel pretty guilty. You’re right, there is only so much abuse a person can take and if you don’t do something about it that may well happen.”

He wants you to say it’s okay... .the impression I get is it’s not okay and makes you feel very sad. It’s okay to tell him that as he likely already knows. However, maybe through this thread and the work I hope you will continue doing, you may be able to see his behaviour for what it is, rather than a meaningful purposeful attack on you and your character. By building your knowledge and understanding you are equipping yourself with a barrier to protect your soul. You already see patterns of behaviour, know them, learn more, they will help you starve the fire of fuel by enabling you to respond rather than react.

Well done Ozzie101

Enabler

[Ozzie101]

I can't tell you how much I appreciate everyone's support and advice. It really helps to get some of this stuff "out there" and hear feedback -- to hear that other people have experienced similar things and that my reactions are normal. Having things spelled out also helps to disconnect in a way, to get past the gut instinct emotional reaction to see what may actually be going on.

I should try that next time he goes into "I'm afraid you'll leave me."

I think I did pretty well last night. He was dysregulating -- not about family, amazingly enough (though he did start out on that track) but about food. He's done that before, calling me the "food police" and accusing me of looking disgusted or disapprovingly at him when he wants to order an appetizer or dessert or something. Maybe I do get a look, I don't know, but if I do, it doesn't match at all what I'm thinking. I assured him I just want him to feel good and be happy.

We ate out last night and he asked "Do you need an appetizer?" I wasn't starving so I said, "No, I'm ok." At home he goes into a rant about how he hadn't eaten much all day and wanted an appetizer but I said no. I stayed calm (while inside thinking, well, you're a damn grown-up, you should have eaten more earlier if you were hungry) and just said "You should have said you wanted one. I would have really enjoyed one too. But you asked if I needed one, which I didn't." Anyway, it went on a while, but I stayed totally calm and just sort of let the conversation flow, staying sympathetic but not agreeing with him.

Also, I feel pretty certain he's projecting his feelings about his mother and things she would have done (real food issues there) onto me. I didn't feel like that was the right time to point that out so kept that one to myself.

Anyway, things calmed down so it ended OK.

So, I think the things I'm learning here are really helping!

[Enabler]

"You're a grown lad, you can decide for yourself what you want to eat you sexy beast (smack bum... .or even better grab groin)"... .I mean seriously, where does he go from there?

Your problem, you deal with it... .it was never my problem.

I think for me, determining what was in my domain and what wasn't was the key driver to really not allowing any of my W trash to litter my front lawn. This might sound crass but thinking about it, the groin grab would really stop me in my tracks on any rant I might have... .it's massively underused.