Declining to bring a forgotten lunch to a child

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I'm not a fan of our kids making their own lunch and taking it primarily because it gets forgotten or some issue seems to come up.

Kids and Mommy sometimes decide for them to take it... .I don't get involved.

Apparently that happened today and a child left it at home.  I have a particularly busy day and when my wife called to ask if I could bring it (40 minute round trip) I said I would see if another driver (older child) had time to do this.  I've got two sick driving age kids at home... .not happening.

So... I texted my wife sorry we couldn't bring it... and hoped our child could buy lunch today (money is in their account).

My wife calls back and asks... .I again said sorry but nobody had the time.  My wife was curt... ordered me to call the office and let them know and hung up the phone.

This is same school where my wife works.

Umm... .I don't plan to call the school... or really discuss it further.

If I'm not going to be allowed in part of the decision making of making and taking lunches... .I'm certainly not going to be part of "saving" a kid from consequences.

Had I known... I suppose I would have checked kids a bit closer going out the door... but they had on coats... backpacks and the normal stuff.  I had no idea there was anything extra needed.

Am I being a azz here or have I thought this through properly?  Note... .if my wife had asked me nicely to call or otherwise coordinate... .I would likely have done so.  I'm not an employee and shouldn't respond to be treated like one...


FF

[formflier]

I'm not a fan of our kids making their own lunch and taking it primarily because it gets forgotten or some issue seems to come up.

Kids and Mommy sometimes decide for them to take it... .I don't get involved.

Apparently that happened today and a child left it at home.  I have a particularly busy day and when my wife called to ask if I could bring it (40 minute round trip) I said I would see if another driver (older child) had time to do this.  I've got two sick driving age kids at home... .not happening.

So... I texted my wife sorry we couldn't bring it... and hoped our child could buy lunch today (money is in their account).

My wife calls back and asks... .I again said sorry but nobody had the time.  My wife was curt... ordered me to call the office and let them know and hung up the phone.

This is same school where my wife works.

Umm... .I don't plan to call the school... or really discuss it further.

If I'm not going to be allowed in part of the decision making of making and taking lunches... .I'm certainly not going to be part of "saving" a kid from consequences.

Had I known... I suppose I would have checked kids a bit closer going out the door... but they had on coats... backpacks and the normal stuff.  I had no idea there was anything extra needed.

Am I being a azz here or have I thought this through properly?  Note... .if my wife had asked me nicely to call or otherwise coordinate... .I would likely have done so.  I'm not an employee and shouldn't respond to be treated like one...


FF

[Notwendy]

I wouldn't do a 40 minute round trip to bring a lunch if the child had money in his cafeteria account. Also your wife works there, and she could also buy the lunch for him.

IMHO, you aren't being an az, I think your wife is being one for not just getting the child a cafeteria lunch.  IMHO- she is right there at the school and you are at least 20 minutes away.

I think this is what irks me about these relationships. I'm a team player. If we are both on the same team with the same goal, then the one who is closest to the ball grabs it.

Since you are a stay at home dad- have you connected with other parents? If I am near the school and another parent calls me, I chip in. I've bought lunches, picked up other parents' kids for them and they have done it for me. Get connected to the Mom ( and Dad) squad.

[formflier]

Team player... same team.  Exactly how I look at things.

Then it seems like randomly I'm not on the team and decisions are made unilaterally.  I have to temper that with the realization of "Mommy... can I make my lunch and take it tomorrow" is not a question that necessarily needs two parents to have a deep meaningful discussion... .

My wife likely didn't even think of me (and that's ok)... .she likely had the time and helped make it. 

Sometimes my wife is onboard with letting natural consequences flow... .sometimes she seems to like to "create consequences"... .and sometimes she seems to want to insulate kids from their own actions.

Very hard to keep up with if you are "the coach" of the team... .and trying to help everyone get better.

Thanks for taking a quick peek at my issue. 

I don't plan to bring it up... .I'll certainly chat with my wife about it if she wants to bring it up. 

This is likely part of me overthinking things.  Generally... things have been much calmer around here for the last few months.  I'm trying to do my part to not unnecessarily inflame things.

Yes... I've made some parent connections.  The kids seems to run in packs... .so I'm in touch with those who I may need to compare notes with from time to time.


FF

[Skip]

Kids forget lunches.
It was reasonable for her to ask.
It was reasonable that you don't have 40 minutes to make the trip.
Finding an alternative driver is reasonable) but not available).
Buying lunch is a reasonable solution.

Nothing off here - either you or her.

Am I being a azz here or have I thought this through properly?  Note... .if my wife had asked me nicely to call or otherwise coordinate... .I would likely have done so.  I'm not an employee and shouldn't respond to be treated like one...

I don't think any of us should take sides, that just us triangulating and making the conflict worse for you.

Something is way off here, though, FF.

Do you see what it is? With you? With her?

[defogging]

Your response is 100% reasonable, I wouldn't sweat it.  If the roles were reversed you probably would have just solved the problem, had the kid get a school lunch and be done with it without any phone calls or drama.  

I can share a quick story that is somewhat similar:

My uBPDw texted me one day to ask if I could stop by the library to pick up some books.  Normally, not a big deal and I'd do it.  Then she sent me an email with a list of what the books are.  I read down the email thread, and realized my wife had promised other parents at our child's school that she would pick up books for their children.  (our daughter already had the book)  The responses from them were along the lines of "how sweet, thank you so much!".  This is what I always deal with, the outside world thinks uBPDw is awesome, at home is a much different story.

This was during a week when we were extremely busy.  (wife has serious time management issues to begin with)  Wife had several night meetings, I was busy at work with meetings, girls had multiple dance rehearsals/piano/gymnastics, son was in day care at a different facility, etc... .we were so busy that we had to enlist MIL to help cart children around.  There was no way I was going to pick up books for someone else's kid on top of all that!

My response was nice and simple.  "Sorry, I am very busy this evening.  I don't have time to go to the library, and if their children need those books it is their responsibility to pick them up."  This was in the beginning phases of me setting boundaries, and I thought I'd deal with the wrath of the devil when she got home.  Surprise, surprise, it was never brought up.  She probably bashed me to the other moms, but I couldn't care less.

Just saw Skip's response and I would only disagree with one thing:  The angry reaction from Mrs. FF is not warranted, and the pushing of responsibility on him to call the school office when she works there.  That is what I'm reading into his side of things.  I do agree that there was nothing wrong with her calling to ask about FF or other drivers bringing the lunch.  I know in my case my uBPDw will never accept "No" as an answer.  If she called me to have me bring a lunch somewhere she would only accept the answer she wants, otherwise I'm "bad".  My uBPDw would probably react the same as what FF described by getting angry, while a healthy reaction would have been more like "okay, that stinks but I guess our child can buy lunch today".

[Skip]

There was no way I was going to pick up books for someone else's kid on top of all that!  

This is very similar to what FF did.

I'm a great believer in values (and corresponding boundaries). I will also say, a lot of unheathy stuff gets justified here (conflicted) under the label of "boundaries". A few years ago we had a member run over her husband and put him in the hospital with swelling on the brain - as a boundary. Extreme case, but I'm trying to make a point. The more common problem is resentments and triggers simmering just below the surface in every relationship transaction - leaping out at a moments notice.

It's not about transporting the lunch or picking up the books - its about the underlying feelings.

We should all scan this before going further so we are talking about the same thing:
https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

[Notwendy]

I'm not trying to triangulate with the relationship , but trying to say that the situation doesn't make sense to me.

I spent time volunteering at my kids' schools. FFW is a teacher at the school. The kid forgets his lunch. If I am right there- at the school and there is money in the lunch account, then it isn't even a phone call question. Just tell the child to go through the lunch line. If there isn't money and I am there I give some to the child to get a lunch.

We had the same arrangement at my kids' schools. They preferred to bring a lunch but if they didn't-my kids by school age knew to go through the lunch line. It wasn't even an issue as it wasn't a question. Nobody had to call anyone.

Also the cafeteria staff allowed kids to go into negative balance if they forgot a lunch and billed the parents for it. Teachers and volunteer parents have loaned money for lunches.

[Notwendy]

Skip, I get the resentment but I think it comes from saying yes to things to keep the peace when we really mean no.

And it is circumstances. If I was at home and about to go out and run by the school, I'd be willing to bring a lunch, but if I was 20 minutes away I would not be willing. If I did it to keep the peace, I would feel resentful. Also if a parent was already at the school and there was money in the account, I would wonder why I was being asked at all?

If I were near a library I would go pick up books but if I were busy and it was another task I might not be so willing. Should I do it anyway to keep the peace ( and then feel resentful) or say "no, I can not do that? "

[formflier]

Here is my guess at what she was thinking.  She wanted me to be the one to call the office (when it likely isn't needed) and report that my kid forgot the lunch.  Then... .somehow... .I'm the bad parent because I wouldn't bring it.  (lots of tea reading here)

As far as my decision not to call... .there is a completely reasonable phone call (two of them)... up until it became clear nobody was going to bring the lunch.

Demeanor changed... .I was ordered/directed to do something... .and phone clicks off.  Discussion over.

I'm doubtful there was a fire or some other "real emergency"... .I doubt she thought through the response... .she just reacted... apparently angrily.

That's on her... .

My part of this is to not validate or in any way encourage this behavior.  If giving orders results in the orders being followed... .I think I would be encouraging this to continue.

That's on me.

It's also on me to give her space to be her... express anger... whatever.  I have no need to get into this with her later, although if she chooses too bring it up... .I certainly won't resist.

Did I answer the question?

Back in a bit.

FF

[Skip]

What is this really about... . 
____ books and lunchboxes?
____ resentments and triggers?

[formflier]

For me... .I really didn't have the time.

I really do believe kids learn best through natural consequences... .although I really doubt they will let her go hungry.   But if they did... .I wouldn't pitch a fit about it.  I would think it would help remind her for next time.

The ordering me to call was icing on the cake... .that I would return to my studies and work.

While I didn't have time to deliver the stuff... I certainly had time to call... .and I had time to take her phone calls.  Personally I don't believe a call is needed... .

I don't think this is about resentments for me.  Some of my boundaries are deliberately simple... .so I don't start overthinking and remembering the past.

Cuss me... .wallet stays closed.  Simple.

Order me to do something.  Nah.  Simple

Thoughts?  Am I answering the question or seeing the issue you are raising?

FF

[Skip]

I don't think this is about resentments for me.  

Does this statement above align with the statement below.

Cuss me... .wallet stays closed.  Simple.

This transaction had nothing to do with cussing or wallets. The wallet comment underscores that this is about a resentment.

Look at the bigger picture here. You both are ready to drop gloves and fight over anything... .including a $3.10 lunch.



You're a Gottman fan, what level are the two of you operating on... .
https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

[formflier]

How were my actions today at all indicative that I'm willing to "fight" over it.

I was intentional to stay away from that... .including thinking through that I wouldn't bring it up later... .but would discuss it if she brought it up... .as long as it stays friendly.

I'm not seeing this.

So... .wallet.  If I get cussed... open my wallet... then I "prove" I'm not resentful.  Again... .I don't follow the train of thought.

Ready to fight... .to me... would be me being cussed over money and then droning on for hours about how she always... .she never... she this... she that.

I simply keep my wallet closed and got on about my life. 

What am I missing?

FF

[formflier]

I'll have to spend some time with the Gottman thing later today.  My quick answer would be somewhere in 2 to 3.

I enjoy my relationship with my wife when it's enjoyable.  I solve problems with her when she will do so in a healthy way... .and for the other times I'm obvious about leaving the door open to resolution, yet I don't obsess about it and try to force her to resolve stuff. 

I don't wait... .I move on with my life.

FF

[Skip]

If I get cussed... open my wallet... then I "prove" I'm not resentful.  Again... .I don't follow the train of thought.

What does this have to do with the current conflict or my comments? No one asked for money. No one suggested how to respond to a request for money. You are taking a past conflict and conflating it with the current conflict. That is the definition of a trigger. This is resentment.

Most challenges in your relationship are a continuation of a long standing battle where the two of you routinely accept unresolved and pissed off as a normal and satisfactory solution.

You both are on high alert and have an attitude is certainly detected by both of you and triggering.

I'm suggesting to you that you change the goal in these transactions from self-protection to something more conducive to repairing the relationship. There are options for this that don't require you to be a doormat.

Self-protection is the hallmark of stage 3-4 in Gottman's model. In stage 4 her refers to increasing disengagement in the name of self-protection.

[formflier]

What does this have to do with the current conflict or my comments? No one asked for money. No one suggested how to respond to a request for money. You are taking a past conflict and conflating it with the current conflict. That is the definition of a trigger. This is resentment.
 

There are other options for the reason that I made that comment and how it was relevant to the post and not an indication of a resentment.  At least in my opinion.

Are you interested in understanding that?

FF

[Skip]

Sure.

[defogging]

What is this really about... . 
____ books and lunchboxes?
____ resentments and triggers?

IMHO, it has nothing to do with any of the options the above.  It has to do with values and boundaries, and can't be broken down this simplistically to two extremes.

I value my time and sovereignty as an individual.  My uBPDw has continually violated that over the years.  Volunteer me for something once, now it's an expectation.  Volunteer me for more things... .expectation, expectations, expectationsss.  The more help I give the worse it gets.  

It's OK, and healthy, for me to assert that my time is just as valuable as hers.  I respect her time enough not to volunteer her to run errands for other parents.  I respect her as an individual and allow her to choose how she wants to spend her time.  If she doesn't show me that same respect then she will hear No from me sometimes and that does not mean I'm resentful.

NotWendy was accurate in saying it is circumstances.  If I went to the library because my daughter needed the book, but refused to get the books for the other kids that would be resentful.  Me saying "No" to adding another trip to the library that my uBPDw never should have volunteered me for is not  resentful, it's setting a boundary.  I have run plenty of last minute errands for her, because it was on my way to work or some other reason where I felt I would have likely asked her to do the same thing.  It just made sense.

[Red5]

I'm not a fan of our kids making their own lunch and taking it primarily because it gets forgotten or some issue seems to come up.

Kids and Mommy sometimes decide for them to take it... .I don't get involved.

Apparently that happened today and a child left it at home.  

What grade, age was the little one who forgot their lunch pail?,

... .we all know how pw/BPD can be... .even the smallest slight can trigger ____ .

I (we) know that any degree of aggravation is bad news to pw/BPD.

I for one, do not understand, if FFw is a teacher at the same school, and she is indeed right there, why a quick phone box call could not be made to the mess hall, via the little one's home room, to ensure that FF's little one got chow off the main serving line today... .

... .I think back to an early morning about thirty two years ago, we were loading bombs on Harriers before the sun was up in Yuma... .it was November matter of fact, and it was pitch dark, and cold as H3LL... .myself and another Marine were running the arming wires, and setting the fuzes... .this guy, we'll call him Koon, well he kept finding things that the loading crew had missed... and he was getting piss'd about it... .blah blah blah... .he'd say to me, "do we have to do everything Red?"... .and I just said... ."dude, just fix it, .hook it up, adjust the setting, tighten the jam nut... .we have a ton to do this morning before the aircrews walk"... ."then we can get some chow maybe before they launch"... .

I am of a mind same as defogging,

"If the roles were reversed you probably would have just solved the problem, had the kid get a school lunch and be done with it without any phone calls or drama".

p.s... .I make my Son's, and my lunch everyday... and when uBPDw was working, I'd pack her a "ham sammich" everyday too !

... .however, no 'ham sammich' merits were ever awarded... .only "demerits"  !

p.s.s... .& what did Red5 learn?... .well that "Dukes Mayonnaise" is the best of course!

Red5

[Skip]

It's OK, and healthy, for me to assert that my time is just as valuable as hers.  I respect her time enough not to volunteer her to run errands for other parents.  I respect her as an individual and allow her to choose how she wants to spend her time.

This makes sense.

Normally, not a big deal and I'd do it. Then she sent me an email with a list of what the books are.  I read down the email thread, and realized my wife had promised other parents at our child's school that she would pick up books for their children.  (our daughter already had the book)  The responses from them were along the lines of "how sweet, thank you so much!". This is what I always deal with, the outside world thinks uBPDw is awesome, at home is a much different story.

This suggests that maybe its a little more "loaded" than just "respecting time".  This is what I'm trying to point out.

In this case, it sounds like that she heard from you "I don't have time" and not "this is what I always deal with". The difference  is a fine line (a choice of a word, a glancing look).  So good.

A lot of fights are not about the substance, but about the attitude and the resentments going in. This is what destroys the relationship.  I'm suggesting that we don't lose sight of that. It's the more important thing. We're not mentally ill. We don't want to get caught up in this. We  don't want to make matters worse.

[formflier]

What does this have to do with the current conflict or my comments? No one asked for money. No one suggested how to respond to a request for money. You are taking a past conflict and conflating it with the current conflict. That is the definition of a trigger. This is resentment.
 

This is very similar to what FF did.

I'm a great believer in values (and corresponding boundaries). I will also say, a lot of unheathy stuff gets justified here (conflicted) under the label of "boundaries". 

So... .this is where the comment about the wallet came from.  Once the issue was raised about justifying behavior... .it got me to thinking about other things where I take a similar approach.

Similar in this way.

I was ordered to make a phone call.  I simply didn't make the phone call. 

I was cussed an ordered to open wallet (and other similar unpleasantness) and I didn't open my wallet.

Simple.  No stewing.  No getting my life derailed... because my wife derailed for a bit.

They are also similar in that a pleasant and nice approach usually gets me to do what I"m asked.

FF

[defogging]

This suggests that maybe its a little more "loaded" than just "respecting time".  This is what I'm trying to point out.

In this case, it sounds like that she heard from you "I don't have time" and not "this is what I always deal with". The difference  is a fine line (a choice of a word, a glancing look).  So good.

A lot of fights are not about the substance, but about the attitude and the resentments going in. This is what destroys the relationship.  I'm suggesting that we don't lose sight of that. It's the more important thing. We're not mentally ill. We don't want to get caught up in this. We  don't want to make matters worse.

I agree with your assessment of what I wrote.  Admittedly, there was some venting when I wrote "always" but that's what we come here to do sometimes, right?     The night that happened I just told her "I can't, I'm busy" and let it go at that.

Reflecting on what you wrote about not getting caught up in it:  That's what I used to do.  Cooperate, play nice, then I get resentful and BOOM!  I would lash out back at her and use words like always and never, we'd go around in circles and bring up old pains.  Just saying no is harder for about 2.2 seconds, but much easier afterwards.

It really helped me to realize I needed to work on myself as well.  Been on that journey for about a year.  I had to recognize my own patterns of being Mr. Nice Guy to people, and then being upset when they didn't reciprocate in the way I wanted.  A big one for me has been realizing I'm not responsible for other peoples' emotions.  If they want to be mad, they can be mad and I don't have to fix it.  (situational of course, if I recklessly drive my wife's car into a tree of course I should apologize and feel bad about it)  But now I can do what I want to do and serve myself more, that allows me to be who I am and not worry about who it upsets.  

During this journey it is looking like I may lose a couple of friends over it, but it may be for the best.  I was making a lot of concessions to keep the friendships alive and now that I'm not we are speaking less.  It's funny to me now, they are still in the pattern of trying to persuade me to do what they want to do but it's not working like it used to.  We'll see where it goes and find out if those friendships are sustainable.

[juju2]

Hi f.

I guess what it comes down to, is everything a battle.

How important is it anyway.

I don't have the energy to spend on matters that will be of no consequence in 48 hours, much less three years.

One of my sponsors said, don't call me for 48 hours.  By then, you will have cooled down, and probably can't even remember what you were so upset about.

I am on your side.   just sharing, take it or leave it.  It's all free.

[I Am Redeemed]

I don't think you are wrong for not calling the school.

She was pleasant until you declined for the second time to meet her request. You had a legitimate reason... .she didn't care. Her request was denied. She got huffy and decided that since she couldn't get what she wanted that you should be the one to explain to the school exactly why you couldn't meet her request. Then she demanded that you do that.

No. Simply, no. There was an alternative solution which involved buying the child a cafeteria lunch. There was money in the lunch account to be used for exactly this purpose... .buying a lunch. A phone call was unnecessary and you are not obligated to respond to a rude demand.

It's not about the lunch... .it's what's going on underneath.

UBPDh used to have me running countless unnecessary errands for him. He forgot lunch, he forgot tools, he needed a drink and forgot money, he ran out of cigarettes... .all of it was a game of "prove that you love me", "show me you care about me"... .and if I didn't meet the requests, then it was because I was making something (or someone) else a priority which proved that I was a horrible, lying, cheating, traitor etc.

Not that she thinks that or took it that far, but it still might be something along the same lines... ."do this for me, whether it's reasonable or not, whether it makes sense or not, because it's really about you proving that you care about what I care about, which IS me".

Also... .not sure how much of a natural consequence it is for a kid who has to eat cafeteria lunch because they forgot their lunch, when one parent encouraged them to make their own lunch in the first place.

It would be different if the kid said "can I take my lunch" and the parent said "ok, but it's your responsibility to remember it or you have to eat the cafeteria food."

Just my two cents.

Redeemed

[Harri]

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