Recycling - I encouraged it.

[JNChell]

I took a scheduled day off of work to collect myself a bit. To be by myself and simply have a slow day of chores and thoughts. I was listening to a podcast by a modern day philosopher. It was a call in show. A man called in and the two of them began a conversation. The man that called in was distraught over an on/off again relationship. During their conversation it came out that his ex-partner had called him a needy, confused b :cursing:h. The conversation took a turn there. The philosopher told the caller that that was extreme verbal abuse, but the caller was having trouble accepting that. The caller was agreeing with what his ex had said. Fast forwarding through the podcast, the ex had left and came back 5 times. Each time crying and negotiating to return. He let her back in each time. He eventually reached out to an internet resource because he was out of his own reasons on why this was happening.

I experienced severe emotional and verbal abuse by my ex. I allowed her to leave and come back. Sometimes for a day, sometimes for months. Each time that she was welcomed back, the cycle got shorter and the intensity in the verbal attacks grew.

I’m curious what others have experienced. Maybe this can be a thread to dump some crap and talk about some systematic things that we experienced.

[SherlockTheDog]

Sorry to hear you’re going through this. I and many others can easily relate as everything seems cyclical.

Where are you and your ex at now in terms of relationship? Have you recently let her in again?

[JNChell]

Hey there, SherlockTheDog. Thanks for commenting.

I’ve been split up with my ex for over a year now. There will be no more recycling. We are done. We share a young boy. He will be 4 on Sunday. The reason for my post is that the podcast that I listened to caused me to reflect. It allowed me to see that this was happening to me during our relationship, and I thought I’d bring it here to see if anyone was interested in talking about it. To see if anyone wanted to use this post as a sounding board for hurtful things that were said to them by the partners that they are trying to detach from.

It’s really hard to understand why someone who has claimed over and over again to love us to say some of things they have to us. To have children with us and be able to cut the chord so abruptly and without visible care. This is confusing stuff to process during detachment. I’ve been a member here just a few days over a year. Detaching is tough stuff. One of the hardest things I’ve ever had to do. Truthfully, I’m not fully there yet, but I’ve accepted that there is no going back. Ever.

My bond wasn’t the same as her bond. The day that I kissed our baby boy on the head upon him being born was the day that I knew that I was all in with his mother. I think that at times she felt that way too, but she couldn’t cement her commitment the way that I had. Things like that frighten pwBPD. The abuse is one of their defense mechanisms. I’m slowly starting to realize this. It serves two purposes. One is to purge the core shame that they feel onto others (projection) because they can’t handle it. They were never taught to cope or self soothe as children. The other, if you’re dealing with a pwBPD that is fairly high on the spectrum for narcissism, is to basically emotionally paralyze us into not leaving.

Many of us have/had lost our sense of self, our realities and even people within these relationships. Abuse is serious stuff. Most generally, and I’m a prime example, we stay with abusers because we were, in one form or another, abused or neglected as children or experienced some sort of profound trauma.

Detaching is hard and it can help to share our experiences with others that have been through very similar things. What are your thoughts here, if you’re ok with sharing?

[Cromwell]

I think I boil it down to its moments where they just cant control themselves its became habitual and impulsive behaviour - because it works. The other side to this dynamic is the ones who stayed and put up with it, kept going back, validation that it works.

If I let an employee when they first start work, a lack of assertiveness and dont make a fuss that they are slightly late and it keeps happening, then it becomes a more often than not occurence. Its a bit more difficult to decide a few months in to suddenly make it an issue without feeling a sense of unfairness.

When I appeased my ex consistently, it simply sent out a message which I believe she read into as "oh, hes not left me despite what ive done - it couldnt have been that big a deal after all"

eventually over time - for them - they dont even recall they ever did anything wrong, even if forced to even recall that, it gets erased.

[JNChell]

Cromwell, you make a very solid point. Validation. We’ve been great at validation, but I was validating the invavlid. I conformed. I conformed out of a skewed sense of compassion and for my own “needs”. I gave into something to not be alone. I’m ok with that now. I don’t beat myself up over it as much now. It is what it was. I wish that it could’ve been different. There’s an innocent life involved. But, it is what it is.

[MeandThee29]

Mine left twice and has been gone for over a year, but we had eight years before that where he threatened to leave. He even would tell me where he was going to move to (which he did), and that he would ruin me financially (we are getting by, but are living below where we were as a family when he left). He said that he had to make those sorts of threats to get my attention.

And that was just a part of it. One of my counsellors said that alone was enough to call it emotional abuse. Then bring in where he would run through all of my faults for an hour or more if I displeased him, and the verbal haraging ("you're going to die alone," "if we divorce I pity the next man in your life," "you are so mentally ill," etc. etc.), and it's a mess. Constantly walking on eggshells affected my health and wellbeing too.

His family knows that and wants me to overlook it. I have minimal contact with them, but they value an intact marriage over the rest. They may be softening a little, but I of course disagree and am not making any steps towards reconciliation until I have strong evidence that the mental health issues have been dealt with. Not long ago I realized that if he had just accepted me as I am and been more easy going on our relationship, I could have handled the ongoing neglect. Acceptance and being emotionally even are primary for me.

I've come a long way, but I know that I'm not there yet.

[I Am Redeemed]

Good points made here.

Regarding projection, uBPDh would call me selfish, vindictive, a liar, accuse me of emotional abuse... .basically all the things that he was doing. He flipped it around and attributed it to me.

The impulsive behavior is key in this as well, I believe, especially when expressing anger. Intense, inappropriate anger, extreme for the situation, because it all goes back to the core wound of abandonment, and it pairs with the all-or-nothing twisted thinking. The barrage of verbal abuse came streaming out when he perceived in some way that I had not met his needs, his expectations, or had otherwise failed to make him a priority in some way, which was proof that I didn't love him (which could only mean that I hated him) and I was just using him, lying to him, and was just waiting for the moment to leave him and completely devastate him.

He was unable to see me for who I was. He only saw his fear of who I was- someone who would ultimately hurt him like everyone else. And he treated me as such, no matter what I did to convince him that I loved him.

Staying and putting up with the abuse was my way to show loyalty and unconditional love, while I tried to figure out what was wrong with him so I could help him fix it. Then he could be happy, we could be happy.

I can see now how my own thinking was distorted. And the abuse was never about me. He abused before me, and he will abuse after me, without treatment.

Redeemed

[Skip]

Validation. We’ve been great at validation, but I was validating the invavlid. I conformed. I conformed out of a skewed sense of compassion and for my own “needs”. I gave into something to not be alone. I’m ok with that now. I don’t beat myself up over it as much now. It is what it was. I wish that it could’ve been different. There’s an innocent life involved. But, it is what it is.

I think you are closing in on what this is all about.

Why do we get caught up in cycles? These are the questions we need to answer if we ever want the break-up/make-up cycle to end.  Are we returning to this person because we are in love with them and the relationship has a chance, or are we returning to this person because were are afraid?
 

• Are we afraid to be alone?  

• Do we have our own abandonment issues?  

• Are we fearful that we cannot find someone as good as them again?  

• Are we fearful of the next step (dating, financial issues, etc.)
  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=95860.0  

Researcher will tell you that this is what lies at the recycling for both parties.

How we say this to ourselves is discussed in this article by Kathryn Patricelli, MA. She mentions:

Level One

economical dependence religion or culture right thing for the children.

Level Two

abuse tends to occur periodically the abuser frequently expresses remorse or guilt "makeup sex" is good relationship might be perceived as good enough https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=136322.0

Does any of this sound like your experience (anyone)?

[Cromwell]

I struggle with this one because before I met my ex and during the relationship, I had ample opportunities to just leave her and not be alone. There was some toxicity of it all or something that I still cant pinpoint that i didnt.

it wasnt infactuation, I had more girls I found attractive.

She gave me a buzz regardless if it was for good or bad. I think a sense of pride and ego got in the way, she had built me up, cheated on me, and I thought id remedy that upset by staying in the relationship with validation that I was the better guy after all. Part of it was grudge bearing, she did things to hurt but id retaliate, it became a tit for tat that each side didnt have the emotional maturity to just walk away from. It was toxic and destructive yet punctuated by the act of "loving", make up sex and acts of kindness, only for it to descend again in a loop syndrome.

I dont know who "won" in the end, the fact that I ghosted her and stayed NC after 3 years together as a fu. or if she sees that she ground me down to the point of being too ill to continue. Id call it a draw, for the reason that I must have done something for her to decide I was important enough to wage war with - that was never my intent but it became a war of sorts.

this morphed towards the end of the relationship to a feeling that id never be able to leave her even if I wanted to, the stalking had started or at least id started to be aware of it. The smear campaign started, the cheating became more blatant that it just produced a "sigh" rather than the hurt it had done the first time around. I think I didnt leave because i started to get used to it, id proven to her that i could handle anything she did, except she finally found the achilles heel and got my family involved in the mix and they were starting to suffer, its what led to finally drawing the line. I lacked the self esteem to care about what she did to me.

I can relate to all of Level 2 from Patricelli, level 1 didnt apply.

I didnt feel any of this reflection during the time as I do now, it was still some construction that I loved her and everything along the way is just part of the package, enduring emotional pain alongside is part of life, normal and was part of homeostasis for fully enjoying the 'good' times when they arose. we were never a complete match, but disturbingly, it turned out via the way I started to behave, we shared a lot in common. Part of detaching was to finally accept I felt shame, it wasnt truly what I wanted in life and that in the long term I couldnt sustain a relationship trying to continually live in denial that none of it constituted the love what I had truly wanted.

[once removed]

Does any of this sound like your experience (anyone)?

yeah. we didnt really "recycle" as such. one of us would say "its over" or threaten a breakup. if it lasted 30 minutes, it didnt last more than a few hours tops. but it happened literally hundreds of times, and can be every bit as damaging if not more than multiple makeup/breakup cycles.

breaking up just seemed so hard. so much work. we were together all day every day... .i didnt know how to just let go of that. any time id try to follow through, shed hit me with the tears. or, earlier in our relationship, the promises of change. the one time she tried to follow through (for good reason), i took it extremely hard.

relationship might be perceived as good enough

some of everything (level 1 didnt apply), but mostly that it was obviously good enough on some level, in some important way. i was definitely afraid of next steps. there was some fear of being alone, though i had been through breakups and i knew if we broke up, id survive. i think i also feared how she would take it, feared her being alone; part projection, part because i fear hurting or abandoning others. it was easy to say "its over" when she was being nasty. but of course that wasnt always the case and why would i leave when times were good. id tell myself things like "we are meant to be... .why break up to force change, or if we are just going to get back together". or i would tell myself i needed to be stronger, less reactive, less affected, more patient (there was a lot of truth to that, but i think i was coming at it from the place of a victim).

we were the classic "too good to leave, too bad to stay". neither of us had the guts to end it, we just tried to manage it until things got so bad that we were forced to.

[Red5]

My bond wasn’t the same as her bond. The day that I kissed our baby boy on the head upon him being born was the day that I knew that I was all in with his mother. I think that at times she felt that way too, but she couldn’t cement her commitment the way that I had. Things like that frighten pwBPD. The abuse is one of their defense mechanisms. I’m slowly starting to realize this. It serves two purposes. One is to purge the core shame that they feel onto others (projection) because they can’t handle it. They were never taught to cope or self soothe as children. The other, if you’re dealing with a pwBPD that is fairly high on the spectrum for narcissism, is to basically emotionally paralyze us into not leaving.

Many of us have/had lost our sense of self, our realities and even people within these relationships. Abuse is serious stuff. Most generally, and I’m a prime example, we stay with abusers because we were, in one form or another, abused or neglected as children or experienced some sort of profound trauma.

... .Bingo !

I've been doing a lot of reading of late about this 'core shame' of the pw/BPD... .what is it, what caused it, why hasn't it "healed"... .how is it manifesting in the pw/BPD's adult life, and relationships... .and why is it "serial", and "repetitive"... .this explains a lot to me.

Red5

[Cromwell]

well if you are a captive audience/willing participant to stick around for this inner-hatred projection exercise. I guess the act of leaving creates a huge problem, where does the projection take place, inwards again.

[JNChell]

This thread slipped beneath my radar. Thanks for resurrecting it Red5 and Cromwell.

Hi there, MeandThee29. Sorry for the delayed response.

He said that he had to make those sorts of threats to get my attention.

I’m sorry that he couldn’t figure out more constructive ways to communicate with you. Would you agree that these are tactics that a child might deploy?

Constantly walking on eggshells affected my health and wellbeing too.

Stress is very hard on the body. It affects our well being in profound ways if we can’t bridle it. You know, your post is allowing me to self reflect. I can identify the bad behaviors, but looking deeper, I eventually participated. I went to my exes level and stayed there with her. In fact, I brought my own baggage to the relationship. Realizing this about myself has been a great help in decoding why.

Now is the time to focus on you. That’s the only way through this. His family is his family. Healing is a delicate thing. His family is not part of your healing. Do you see what I’m trying to convey?

[JNChell]

I Am Redeemed, sorry it’s taken me so long.

I can see now how my own thinking was distorted. And the abuse was never about me. He abused before me, and he will abuse after me, without treatment.

This is a strong statement. You are showing self awareness which is a very important key to understanding this stuff.

Blaming our ex’s is a normal part of the process, I think. I also think that it’s a healthy choice to find our self awareness amongst the anger and resentment. Whether or not we want to accept it, it’s there.

[JNChell]

Its bedtime. I will continue catching up here when I can.

[JNChell]

Hi, Skip. Thanks for bringing this lesson to the thread.

Are we afraid to be alone? 

Do we have our own abandonment issues? 

Are we fearful that we cannot find someone as good as them again? 

Are we fearful of the next step (dating, financial issues, etc.)

I have discovered and accepted that I am afraid of being alone. At times it feels quite painful. This is why I’ve chosen to be alone for as long as it’s needed. To face the fear. If I’m being accurate, isn’t some of what behavioral therapy is based around is doing the opposite of what one is feeling at times?

I do have my own fears of abandonment. I stated this this evening in therapy and my T pretty much agreed. We took this realization back to my childhood and made sense of it. I panicked every time my ex did or threatened to leave me. I had panic attacks is more accurate. So, yes. There is no denying that I have a fear of abandonment.

I still have mixed feelings about “someone as good... .”. I’m not at my best mentally and emotionally, nor is she. How do I gauge that from my current altitude? I don’t think that I properly can. I don’t think that it has as much to do with “good” or “bad” as it does with differences of who each person is and if they’re capable of honestly aligning with each other enough to stay connected.

The fourth topic here is kind of a nonissue right now. I have no desire to be romantically involved as things stand. I guess that could be translated as fear, but there is another element. That being I know what I’m attracted to, and I know what I attract at this point. I’ve learned that the hard way. That’s where I’m at with it. That’s where it currently sits. The dynamics that are born from that are no longer acceptable to me. I’m referring to my 50% here as well. I’m not casting any blame.

[JNChell]

yeah. we didnt really "recycle" as such. one of us would say "its over" or threaten a breakup. if it lasted 30 minutes, it didnt last more than a few hours tops. but it happened literally hundreds of times, and can be every bit as damaging if not more than multiple makeup/breakup cycles.

Hi, once removed. I agree with you. The threat is every bit as damaging as the act itself. The stage (anticipation) is set. It’s just a matter of when it goes down. At least that’s how it felt. My ex and I performed this toxic dance back and forth many times. When there was no resolve, and things got too intense, one of us threw it out there to stop the conflict. I don’t know for sure, but thinking about it, I wonder if the one throwing it out there was the one that felt emotionally cornered.

[once removed]

I wonder if the one throwing it out there was the one that felt emotionally cornered.

in my case, yes.

i did it once when she snooped and found something where i was guilty.

i did it most times to get her to drop something or end a fight.

i did it sometimes because i was at my wits end and knew no better way to cope.

a few times i was something close to "sincere" but couldnt follow through.

in pretty much all cases, it was a power play. not even a very good one.

[JNChell]

Red5, glad to chat with you again. I like your handle btw. I’m sitting here typing in an AT-AT t-shirt that my Sis got for  me.

I've been doing a lot of reading of late about this 'core shame' of the pw/BPD ... .what is it, what caused it, why hasn't it "healed" ... .how is it manifesting in the pw/BPD's adult life, and relationships ... .and why is it "serial", and "repetitive" ... .this explains a lot to me.

It’s easy for me to relate to your thoughts here. The questions don’t seem to stop, do they? I’ll try to explain what I think I understand about the condition thus far according to your post.

Many people that suffer from core shame don’t have personality disorders, but core shame can/will attract core shame. In most cases, core shame was instilled during childhood. Namely during the early stages of development. If this isn’t nipped in the bud between the buffer zone of 5-7 years old, it’s basically hard wired into the brain. There’s a term for this. Arrested Development. It basically means that important parts of the mind are basically stuck at a point in time when trauma/traumas were occurring.

It hasn’t healed because the person suffering from it doesn’t see a need to address it. You’re here because you want to figure out what is going on. Your wife isn’t here, so to speak, to figure out what is going on. She’s unable to do the work. Her development has been handcuffed to her childhood. Arrrsted Development.

How are you feeling Red5? JNChell, standing by.

[JNChell]

in pretty much all cases, it was a power play. not even a very good one.

I relate and agree, or.

[Red5]

There’s a term for this. Arrested Development. It basically means that important parts of the mind are basically stuck at a point in time when trauma/traumas were occurring.

Evening JNChell,

My coworker and I were talking about this yesterday... .and we “came up with”... .pw/BPD, .in this case my uBPDw, whom moved out a week from last Sunday... .continuing... .we came up with a way to describe what happens when the BPD dysregulates... .ie’ cannot process... .feelings are facts, .engulfment, and the fear that they are about to be abandoned... .all at the same time, which is the BPD’s defensive mechanism... .it’s like an old computer... .that is beyond updates, due to the “software” being totally obsolete... .and it is still hooked to a network, this older computer... .and each time the “system” pushes a software update, th old computer tries and tries and tries to accept th new programs, patches and the new “windows updates”... .but it is listening in the wrong code thus it’s never able to update, it only spins and spins, and finally freezes... .and can no longer commucate with its operator... .it will have to be shut down, and hopefully it’s previois and yet hopelessly outdated operating system may be restored... .until the same exact thing will happen again and again... .which is not sustainable... .

As is with the “core wound” of the BPD, she (my wife) was emotionally wounded at birth?... .it’s the “symbiotic” breech with foo mum, she has been trying to find a way back to get the “updates” to her “software” for her entire life, it’s been missing since birth, and was only further damaged as she grew up in her foo,

But she can’t seem to find it, so she settles for harmful and manipulative relationships, as that’s the “software program” she understands... .but one day if she comes across something similar but more advanced?... ., ie’ me... .(trauma bonding)... .a caretaker / rescuer... .she can’t ever seem to trust me, because their is no way I can provide exactly what she is looking for subconsciously and emotionally, and she certainly can never give “it” to me, if she has never had “it” herself to begin with, ie’ a viable operating software “patch/fix”... .so we will never be on the same operating network, or else compatible... .so she goes back to what she knows... .as her BPD defensive mechanisms tell her to do... .ie’ the hopelessly outdated, and corrupted “software” which is BPD.

Until she comes to realize, which she never will, as it’s too threatening to her... .she will exist in this suspended type of faulty “psychological psychosis“... .for the rest of her life... .

What does this mean to me, as in the past eleven years relationship... .almost eight years married ?

It meant, means constant anger, dysregulations, sabotage of any attempts to be close, for very long, feelings mean actual facts, emotional reasoning... .constant paranoia... .on and on and on ; (

I never stood a chance, .and she is now fighting for her life, as she is dx st-age iv r-c-c... .two almost three years ago now, so her dx, and her treatment regime is forefront of any and everything else, so no way will she ever come to any “epiphany” as to why her second marriage is now failing as well, .

*She hit, punched my autistic son, in a fit of BPD rage, due to her beloved y-orkshire terrier of fourteen years passing the day before... .no process, so dysregulation, and violent outburst, and feelings are facts, so no remorse, or accountability... .only perceived victim hood... .

So she can’t live with me and my son anymore, so she moved out.

I have come to believe, even if, .I’d known about BPD when we met, dated, and eventually married, that it would have made no difference... .due to the BPD fear of engulfment, and abandonment... .she would have fought me off, even as I tried to “save” her... .to admit to BPD, sans ANY personality disorder, would be devastating to her “inner wounded child”... .the false reality/person... .the “core shame”... .always looking for mothers comfort, which was never there... .and never will be,

Thoughts?

Red5

Luke Skywalker, an orphan (later an X-Wing fighter pilot, call sign “Red5” during the Battle of Yavin)... .lived on a moisture farm on Tatooine with his Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru who adopted him and raised him from a small child... .Luke takes his first steps toward his destiny when he purchases the droids C-3PO and R2-D2. While examining R2-D2, he sees a message from Leia. When R2-D2 goes missing, Luke goes out to search for the droid, but is knocked out by Tusken Raiders in the process. He then encounters Obi-Wan Kenobi, an old hermit. Luke and Obi-Wan seek shelter, and R2-D2 plays the full message for Obi-Wan from Leia, beseeching him to help her defeat the Galactic Empire. Obi-Wan says that he and Luke's father were once Jedi Knights, and that his father was murdered by a traitorous Jedi named Darth Vader, whom later was revealed to be Luke’s real father  

[once removed]

Red5, do you feel you encouraged recycling in your relationship?

[Red5]

Red5, do you feel you encouraged recycling in your relationship?

Yes, .I am the perpetual troubleshooter; "fixer"... .and apathetic apologist... .

This marriage, as well the first one.

Always trying to "return" the relationship, and home back to the normal operating posture after each and every dysregulation, and BPD rage episode... .

"Nothing to see here, we are all just fine and dandy, see, "we love each other" : )

She would tear things up, and I would come in right behind her and clean it all up again.

There was a period of time, that I gave back as good as I got... .which was extremely destructive... .but one day, I came around, and started to recognize the pattern.

That was about five years ago (2012)?... .and I started the search for a reason "why"... .bi-polar?... .schizophrenia?... .?... .hmmm, (I thought to myself) why is she the way she is... .was she abused as a small girl, like my first wife?... .was it sexual abuse, that would explain alot... .is that why, she is acting out... .as I've seen this type of behavior before (anger)... .from the ex... .for years... .what is it, .I don't think its me... .no(?),

I started to hear "stories" from one of the BIL's... .about my own uBPDw, and as well the two older sisters, this BIL being the husband of the oldest, .and he told me stories about the younger (deceased) brother... .a "chemical imbalance"?... .severe anger issues, said he had to beat his arse several times for threatening his wife with a knife, and rifle, .the oldest sister, BIL's soon to be wife... .living at home still, pregnant and not yet divorced from her first husband... .yeah... .and then he told more stories about mum, and dad (foo)... .ie' dysfunctional... .perpetually, .wow ; (

You see, I was lied to, "I had a wonderful childhood" she told me... .which was bravo sierra.

Had to be a reason she left home to marry a soldier whom was seven years older than her, at age sixteen, and go to Deutschland to be with him?... .sixteen?... .really?

I (Red5) married my first wife when she was "almost seventeen"... .so I started to draw comparisons... .as my first wife was a sexual abuse victim (never a survivor, even to this day)... .I was her "escape"... .so I began to think that my current wife was maybe the same... .then I "expanded"... .and stumbled upon BPD/npd... ."epiphany!"... .

Oh' yes... .I "encouraged recycling"... .was going to fight hard for this one, was not going to let this marriage "go under" like the first one did... .

Lots of anger... .Lots of issues... .its been eleven years, almost eight married, and its only gotten worse... .seems the more I learned, the more tools I attempted to employ, she only "waxed' worse and worse, especially since her /C/ dx.

What do I remember her telling me, after she'd had too much wine to drink... .

"I've never been close to my mom"
"I was very angry at my father for many years"
"My family never came to see us, even when we were stationed state side"
"I had my son alone in an Army hospital in Fort Hood Texas"
"My parents never had much to do with my two children, like they did my oldest sister's"
"My parents never even met my daughter until she was about four"
"I did not seen my brother, maybe only two times in twenty years"

hmmm,

I'm resonating, no more recycle I'm afraid... .as my empathy well is now empty?

I've made her most dreaded fear come to pass... .I've abandoned her, in order to protect my son from her... .

Red5

[Red5]

Red5, glad to chat with you again. I like your handle btw. I’m sitting here typing in an AT-AT t-shirt that my Sis got for  me.

JNChell,

I am a rabid Sci-Fi fan!  

Red5