Best Friendzoned

[Dargumin]

Having had a heartbreaking ordeal with a friend who became a girlfriend which quickly turned to disaster in 2017, I have a new problem with a new girl now.
The girl in 2017 I highly suspect had high functioning BPD.  She would never admit anything was wrong or consider seeking help.

The girl I met this year told me very early on that she had been recently diagnosed with PTSD from Abandonment and was seeking help for it.  I guess this resonated positively with me since the previous girl refused to admit she had any issues. It was nice to meet a girl that acknowledged her issues and was seeking to confront them.  The issue we faced was that she was only 3 weeks out of a previous relationship (he had dumped her & she was heartbroken).  All my common sense said that the timing was foolish, but this girl is beautiful, hilariously funny (the single funniest girl I've ever met)  and shares my taste in music, if I didn't snap her up, she wouldn't be on the market long.

After an intense 6 weeks of dating where she seemed very interested in me, disaster struck.  Her ex got in touch with her and reminded her they still had tickets to a concert which they had purchased whilst together.  She made up some BS why she couldn't see me and went to the concert in secret.  The next date we had a few days later did not seem as comfy as previous ones, a few days later she told me she felt no spark with me and ended things. It was a shock to me as up to a week earlier, it felt like their was a huge spark.    Seeing her ex had clearly affected her, after all they had only been split 8 weeks at this point.   I don't hold this against her because I know the power an ex can have in the first few months after a relationship is over, especially when it wasn't over by her choosing.  

As it turns out, one of my friends attended the same concert and saw her there with her ex and told me about it. I was able to contact her and just let her know that I know the truth, and that whilst it was upsetting that she lied about what she had been up to, at least I know their was a spark and it was just the lure of her recent ex that ruined things for us.  2 weeks later (late September) it became clear she would never be returning to her ex,  they had an explosive falling out and seemingly hate each other now.

We stayed out of touch for a month (through October), only for her to contact me at the end of the month.  She was calling to complain about the behaviour of a person we both know, he'd given her a ride home from a nightclub and presumed she would just put it on a plate for him in return.  Since that day we have spoken everyday for the last 6 weeks and met up twice on a pure friendship basis.  I decided that whilst her ex may be out of the way now, she needs more time to heal from it all before I could consider rekindling any romance.

The laughter is unending.  She says she sees me as one of her closest friends now, however a few days ago revealed she was going on a date with someone new. I still think she needs to heal more from the last ex and to keep working on her abandonment issues, but I have to admit I am still very attracted to her and it's going to kill me to see her date someone else.  

Ultimately it feels like we had a spark, it was extinguished by the lure of her recent ex, thankfully he is now in the past  and we have a strong friendship.  I don't want to see her date anyone else really.  Do you guys think it's possible to get the "spark" back once you've been "best-friendzoned"? I appreciate her diagnosis is PTSD through abandonment and not BPD, but I understand that behaviourally this can be quite similar?  

[Purplex]

Hi dargumin,

I can see a lot of parallels between your situation and the story of me and my pwBPD. When we met, it was pretty clear that he was still processing his last breakup and the pain of abandonment that went with it. He was very open about his BPD and also in therapy. At that time I was adamant to not pursue anything more then FWB with him, because I knew how hard it could be to deal with these issues. But since he was very eager to stay in touch with me and I enjoyed our time together so much, I developed more and more romantic feelings for him. He told me that I was the most important person in his life, we cuddled a lot and were very intimate overall, so I kind of knew that the feelings were mutual, even though we never really talked about it.
But this still didn’t keep him from pursuing other women, one in particular, which treated him really badly. And of course he let me in on everything and relied a lot on me to support him and get him over his heartbreak. He was completely oblivious that this might hurt me. But since I still had some doubts, if I wanted a relationship with a pw BPD, I kept my mouth shut and tried to act solely as a friend.
The straw that broke the camel’s back was, when he invited me to his birthday and got very touchy with a girl while completely ignoring me. I had a minor breakdown after that, and finally decided that I wouldn’t put up with that any longer. I told him how I felt and that I needed him to commit to me or I had to stop seeing him.
What followed was 3 months of bargaining, soul searching and a mutual conversation with his therapist, that concluded in him telling me that he would not be able to restrict himself and that his fear of being abandoned again was so overwhelming, that he could only offer an open relationship. He also was afraid of the responsibility that would come with us being together. It felt like he made this proposition not just for the sake of casual sex, but to protect himself from being fully committed and thereby vulnerable to abandonment. An easy way out in case things don’t work out as planned. Things were just 'too real’ with us. But that was not what I wanted so I declined, and we went no contact for about 3 months.     
I honestly didn’t think he would come around, but he did, told me that he thought a lot about it and was ready to confront his fears and commit to me. That’s pretty much where we are standing now.

So long story short, if the spark is real, and that seems to be the case with you two, there surely is a chance to get out of the friendzone and make things work out for you, at least from my experience. Of course every relationship is different, and it might be enough to just openly talk to her, see where you guys are standing and go from there.
But abandonment issues can be a really serious obstacle that needs a lot of time and patience to overcome, and there could be a lot of underlying fears controlling her behavior that you might not be aware of yet.

[once removed]

The issue we faced was that she was only 3 weeks out of a previous relationship (he had dumped her & she was heartbroken).  All my common sense said that the timing was foolish, but this girl is beautiful, hilariously funny (the single funniest girl I've ever met)  and shares my taste in music, if I didn't snap her up, she wouldn't be on the market long.

After an intense 6 weeks of dating where she seemed very interested in me, disaster struck.  Her ex got in touch

"good things come to those who wait"

3 weeks out of a relationship, this is always a risk, that a couple has unfinished business, and that is essentially impossible to compete with.

just let her know that I know the truth, and that whilst it was upsetting that she lied about what she had been up to, at least I know their was a spark and it was just the lure of her recent ex that ruined things for us.

both can be true, Dargumin. intensity in six weeks can die quickly... .its rare that both parties are really on the same page with this. if, at six weeks, a call/concert with an ex killed things, then it tells you that the connection was somewhat fragile.

a few days ago revealed she was going on a date with someone new.   I don't want to see her date anyone else really.  Do you guys think it's possible to get the "spark" back once you've been "best-friendzoned"?

there is a significant dilemma between believing that she needs more time to heal before she dates, and trying to get the spark back because you fear her going off the market again.

think that through.

in terms of getting her back, if thats what you want to do, i might think of it as a long game; id leave the door open, but i might explore other options.

what do you think?

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Dargumin,

Instead of a wait-and-see approach, you could be more proactive by letting her know that you are interested in dating, and then see what she says.  It might help to clarify where things go from here.

LuckyJim

[Dargumin]

Thanks for sharing your experience Purplex.  I might feel more positive if we were in FWB territory right now, but it's just straight up friends at the moment.  I'm happy that he came through for you though,  I don't know if I could handle the no contact method, but then I've not seen her getting friendly with anybody else yet , so I don't know how I would handle it, but it won't be fun.     

Before I started dating this new girl, I had briefly been having a FWB thing with an old ex (def never getting back together - she doesn't want kids, I do).  I stopped it  when I started seeing the new girl.   I've restarted this now, and today I informed the new girl as I hate keeping things from her.  She said she'd been expecting me to do that for a while, but didn't seem overly bothered by it.  If she did feel nothing more for me I guess it wont make a difference... .if she did feel something then it will have either made her jealous or served to encourage her to keep looking elsewhere.  Time will tell, but at least I've been honest.

[once removed]

if she did feel something then it will have either made her jealous

were you hoping it would?

[JNChell]

Hi, Dargumin. Welcome back. I remember your story.

I agree with once removed on the 3 week thing and the concert. The connection wasn’t equally understood. pwPTSD can present with extreme fears of abandonment and have fears of being alone. I’m curious if you employed the tools that you’ve previously learned here while vetting the latest situation.

All my common sense said that the timing was foolish

Ok. We really need to touch on this. Sit on this for a while. You don’t have to respond to anyone but yourself. Just sit with the words.

If this relationship is over, are you willing to let it go without a thread attached?

[Dargumin]

were you hoping it would?

I spend a good hour or more per day chatting to the friendzone girl so it didn't seem right to keep such a big secret. Did I hope the news would make her jealous and reignite some feelings for me? I guess so, I'd be hers in a flash if she showed interest.

But that's not the reason I've started seeing my old ex.  I'm seeing her because I'm lonely and we have a comforting familiarity and nothing else seems to be happening for me right now.  Plus we both know the score so I doubt we can get hurt. Also I'm finishing a uni course off at the moment, it's quite stressful, I've gained a good 20 pounds since the summer and feel I'm not in a position to be "on the hunt" for anyone new right now since I'm so busy.

[Dargumin]

Hi, Dargumin. Welcome back. I remember your story.

I agree with once removed on the 3 week thing and the concert. The connection wasn’t equally understood. pwPTSD can present with extreme fears of abandonment and have fears of being alone. I’m curious if you employed the tools that you’ve previously learned here while vetting the latest situation.

All my common sense said that the timing was foolish

Ok. We really need to touch on this. Sit on this for a while. You don’t have to respond to anyone but yourself. Just sit with the words.

If this relationship is over, are you willing to let it go without a thread attached?

I don't think I could let her go out of my life now.  We laugh too much and we genuinely care for each other.  I would stay friends with her even if nothing else happens, but in the short term it would be painful to see her with someone else until I got used to it.

[JNChell]

I don't think I could.

What would that entail?

[Dargumin]

I don't think I could.

What would that entail?

Sorry you've lost me... when you say "let it go without a thread attached" - you mean to turn my back on the whole friendship?

[once removed]

I'm seeing her because I'm lonely

how long ago did things end with your ex? how long have you felt lonely?

[JNChell]

Yes.

[Dargumin]

how long ago did things end with your ex? how long have you felt lonely?

So things ended with the friendzone girl mid September... .she's not really an ex as were never official, but she did come on very strong, I remember her using the word "smitten" a few times in the days before her ex came and whisked her off to that concert.  I guess I've felt more lonely since I've seen Christmas on the horizon.  I have no brothers or sisters, just my divorced parents, so Christmas as a singleton is particularly unmagical for me. 


 

[once removed]

the holidays can be an especially lonely time.

im referring to the ex that brought you here. when did things end with her?

[Dargumin]

Yes.

It would entail cutting out a person from my life who I really like.  It's not something I will be entertaining unless seeing her with someone else hurts even more than I expect.  As we have never been an official couple and because my guard has been up much more this time, I don't think it will be crazy painful, but it will feel like a great opportunity has been missed.

[once removed]

It's not something I will be entertaining

makes sense.

so where do you want to go from here with friendzoned girl? do you want to play the long game? or just be friends?

[Dargumin]

the holidays can be an especially lonely time.

im referring to the ex that brought you here. when did things end with her?

We ended in early April 2017, but due to having a holiday booked together the breakup dragged out until late June as I was hoping we'd fix things.  Even that was a short 2 month relationship... .but on the back of  9 year friendship it was very dizzying. From friends to romance to hatred all in the space of 8 weeks. I saw her at a  nightclub 2 months ago, she asked me if I knew what gaslighting was and then claimed I gaslighted her (she gave no examples of course).  Somehow from that icebreaker we had a civil chat for 20 minutes, but we're zero contact outside of bumping into each other at events now.  Its crazy how it used to hurt me so much and now it is just a pain if I really force myself to think about it.

[JNChell]

So, you really like this girl. She was 3 weeks out of a serious relationship.

What do you see in her that compliments your values and virtues? Have you discussed these things with her?

[Dargumin]

makes sense.

so where do you want to go from here with friendzoned girl? do you want to play the long game? or just be friends?

I'm conflicted.  I would love to still be friends with my ex of last year and regret that we aren't.  So I really do value friendship over nothing.  Equally though it felt great in the summer when we were dating, it feels like there is some real unfinished business there that was only scuppered because the ex came to mess with her head one last time.
 I think I need to focus on  finishing my uni work, getting a job, losing 40 pounds (she pointed out I had more weight on me than the type of guys she usually goes for and tbf it would do me good to lose it anyway) and see how things are with her at that time  (March/April).  I will be a more attractive proposition with more confidence at that point and if she has moved on then I guess someone else will be interested, but toughing out the next few months won't be easy.  At least my FWB ex can help me through it a bit I guess.

[Dargumin]

So, you really like this girl. She was 3 weeks out of a serious relationship.

What do you see in her that compliments your values and virtues? Have you discussed these things with her?

Her heart is in the right place.  If she sees a homeless person, she will ask them what they'd like from the shop and get the something.  Shes stimulating too... .most girls talk and I tune out after a while. With her though I'm always listening. She has me laughing too... .we are both immature so that works for us I guess.  The issue is that I figured I'd get with a girl that would "straighten me out" a bit, but with her I'm probably be looking after her ill discipline just as much as my own.     

[JNChell]

Ok... Man, I understand wanting the warmth of a woman. I’m a man. I truly get it.

.we are both immature so that works for us I guess.  The issue is that I figured I'd get with a girl that would "straighten me out" a bit,

Please read this a few times. What does it tell you in all seriousness?

[once removed]

I'd get with a girl that would "straighten me out" a bit,

key to attracting a quality girl is standing tall and straightening out.

she wont have time for fixing up.

make sense?

[Dargumin]

Ok... Man, I understand wanting the warmth of a woman. I’m a man. I truly get it.

.we are both immature so that works for us I guess.  The issue is that I figured I'd get with a girl that would "straighten me out" a bit,

Please read this a few times. What does it tell you in all seriousness?

It tells me that I'm after a mythical girl that likely doesn't exist.  The girls that could likely straighten me out (by which I mean help me curb my spending, show me how to be more career focused , more organized in general) are probably not the ones that will keep me as engaged and stimulated as this girl can.

[Dargumin]

key to attracting a quality girl is standing tall and straightening out.

she wont have time for fixing up.

make sense?

I am trying, hence returning to University for a Masters in my 30s.  But I'm also pursuing a diagnosis of Adult ADHD at the moment, so it's a bit of a handicap in terms of straightening out, though hopefully if/when I get the diagnosis the meds and therapy will help.  It's possible this girl is ADHD herself, maybe that's why I find her so stimulating.   

[once removed]

The girls that could likely straighten me out (by which I mean help me curb my spending, show me how to be more career focused , more organized in general)

these are things to take classes on, or googling tips for, or starting a thread here about. why not do that?

see this through the eyes of women on the market: a quality girl wants a guy with his eye on the ball. she doesnt want to teach him to be career focused.

I'm also pursuing a diagnosis of Adult ADHD at the moment, so it's a bit of a handicap in terms of straightening out, though hopefully if/when I get the diagnosis the meds and therapy will help.

how is it going? are you seeing a therapist, a doctor?

[JNChell]

Dargumin, I’m going to sit with this for a bit. You can too if you’d like.

[Dargumin]

these are things to take classes on, or googling tips for, or starting a thread here about. why not do that?

see this through the eyes of women on the market: a quality girl wants a guy with his eye on the ball. she doesnt want to teach him to be career focused.

how is it going? are you seeing a therapist, a doctor?

Its a painfully slow process via the NHS here in the UK. I was referred by my GP back in December of last year, and so far have just had an initial screening with a mental health nurse in August.  Its likely I won't see an ADHD specialist doctor until Spring or Summer. 

In honesty I wasn't looking for romance whilst at uni, I just wanted to better my employment prospects and make myself more of a "catch". But romance found me... .and then ran off again! Once I've got a job bagged up after uni I guess I'll feel much more confident about things.  I'm simply not the type to count my chickens before they hatch.   

[once removed]

it sounds like youve got a plan... .

youre a young guy right? around my age? we will get there 

[JNChell]

I don't think I could let her go out of my life now.  We laugh too much and we genuinely care for each other.  I would stay friends with her even if nothing else happens, but in the short term it would be painful to see her with someone else until I got used to it.

This is understandable. I get what you’re saying. Do you have fears that you will eventually have to see her with someone else?

It would entail cutting out a person from my life who I really like.  It's not something I will be entertaining unless seeing her with someone else hurts even more than I expect.  As we have never been an official couple and because my guard has been up much more this time, I don't think it will be crazy painful, but it will feel like a great opportunity has been missed.

I see what you’re saying and it’s easy to see that you have strong feelings for her. I also understand what it’s like to have thick walls erected around my heart because of previous experiences. I’m curious, why do you think you need to have your guard up with a girl that you feel so strongly for? Obviously fear of being hurt all over again is one reason, but are there any underlying reasons that you can identify?

Her heart is in the right place.  If she sees a homeless person, she will ask them what they'd like from the shop and get the something.

This is a very virtuous aspect. I’d be highly attracted to this as well.

It tells me that I'm after a mythical girl that likely doesn't exist.  The girls that could likely straighten me out (by which I mean help me curb my spending, show me how to be more career focused , more organized in general) are probably not the ones that will keep me as engaged and stimulated as this girl can.

They exist, it just takes time and a willingness to attract what we desire. I’ve interacted with women that I find desirable. My own personal issue with this this, which I’ve recently discovered about myself, is that I’m not yet able to compliment their makeup with my own. I hope that makes sense. I guess I’m trying to say that I’m not ready or prepared for what I’d like to see in a romantic relationship. Kind of like a career. I want the money, knowledge and validation for doing a good job out of the gate, but I have to learn how before those things fall into place.

It’s been a minute since you’ve been back with an update. Have there been any changes?

[Insom]

Hi, Dargumin.    This is a nice thread.  It sounds like you could use some extra support re: the ADHD and that you're taking the right steps to get it.  Is there any kind of follow-up you can do (phone call?  email?) to keep the wheels greased at NHS?

I know I'm chiming in late here but wanted to respond to this:

Do you guys think it's possible to get the "spark" back once you've been "best-friendzoned"?

Short answer:  Probably not.  (Alas.)  FWIW, I'm not a huge fan of the word friendzoned.  While it's descriptive, for sure, the sports reference implies there's a "play" you can make to get a different outcome.  In my experience these decisions about whether to engage in an intimate/romantic relationship with a man get made on an intuitive level for reasons that are hard to articulate and that are probably pretty primal.  Once you start see someone as a friend rather than a mate you can't "unsee" the friend.  That's been my experience, anyway.

[Lucky Jim]

In my experience these decisions about whether to engage in an intimate/romantic relationship with a man get made on an intuitive level for reasons that are hard to articulate and that are probably pretty primal.  Once you start see someone as a friend rather than a mate you can't "unsee" the friend.

Hey Insom,  People talk about "chemistry" or a "spark" yet you articulated this mysterious process much more clearly!  It's interesting for me to hear that, once relegated to the dreaded "friend zone," it's unlikely that one will emerge from that classification.

LJ

[once removed]

im not a big believer in the "friendzone" either. it really suggests that a woman has relegated someone, consciously put them on some list, done something to them, and that we can manipulate them into reversing that. i think its a fundamentally flawed perspective on women, that invalidates the idea that women have a right to see a person as a friend, as more, or as less.

having said that... .

i went through high school with a lot of what are commonly referred to as "nice guy issues", which are really a flawed sense of self worth, coupled with entitlement. i was close with lots of girls, but they tended to see me as a friend and only a friend. i over pursued, wore my heart on my sleeve, i was like a very sensitive, wounded puppy. these are simply not attractive qualities. some of those girls would much later tell me that there was maybe some level of attraction, and that had i not behaved in such an over the top way, it might have become more. i certainly had better luck in love when i realized this about myself.

so while women will either be attracted to a man, or not... .it doesnt help matters to behave in unattractive ways, or to carry a sense of entitlement; confidence and self respect are very attractive.

[Dargumin]

This is understandable. I get what you’re saying. Do you have fears that you will eventually have to see her with someone else?

I see what you’re saying and it’s easy to see that you have strong feelings for her. I also understand what it’s like to have thick walls erected around my heart because of previous experiences. I’m curious, why do you think you need to have your guard up with a girl that you feel so strongly for? Obviously fear of being hurt all over again is one reason, but are there any underlying reasons that you can identify?

This is a very virtuous aspect. I’d be highly attracted to this as well.

They exist, it just takes time and a willingness to attract what we desire. I’ve interacted with women that I find desirable. My own personal issue with this this, which I’ve recently discovered about myself, is that I’m not yet able to compliment their makeup with my own. I hope that makes sense. I guess I’m trying to say that I’m not ready or prepared for what I’d like to see in a romantic relationship. Kind of like a career. I want the money, knowledge and validation for doing a good job out of the gate, but I have to learn how before those things fall into place.

It’s been a minute since you’ve been back with an update. Have there been any changes?

Ok so a month has passed so in terms of updates... .yes she's currently dating a guy since NYE. He sounds nice, maybe I will meet him in a few weeks.  She's very much into him right now, but of course idealization may well be at play. I'm not looking forward to seeing her with him, but I do want the friendship to work, so I'm just going to push myself through the first few rough times of seeing them together and then I hope it will get easier.  

She's talking about BPD much less lately, whereas when she was feeling low she spoke about it often.  Also in the last month she's fallen out with her best female friend.  Basically she felt that she was always the one instigating online chats, or arranging meeting up etc and felt her friend wasn't really pulling her weight in this regard, her friend resorted to this accusation by blocking her.  She now doesn't have any local friends near to her and yes maybe part of the reason I've stuck by her is I've seen how few friends she has and I can see how lonely she is.  

In answer to your question about why I had my guard up... .my guard was up because she came to me fresh from her ex, and he had dumped her, so she was still hurting from that.  I knew that in the early stages I'd be playing second fiddle to him, plus she mentioned she may have BPD so that factored into it too, since I suspect my previous ex of having BPD and that split was the most heartbreaking of my life.