Book Research: Are relationship fights really about anything meaningful?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

This is research for an upcoming book and I'm asking for your thoughts to a specific question.

I’m wondering if you could help me by please telling me what you fight about, and how long it takes to get off that subject and get off the expressway to to La La Land.

A month ago, I received lots and lots of messages from people, giving me a sort of transcript (from memory) of arguments they  had had.

It was like watching a pinball game being played in infinite space. The verbal volleys went back-and-forth but did not stay on the playing field. They often went out into space where sometimes they drifted off into nothingness and sometimes came back into the fifth dimension.

Generally it started with an innocuous question or comment from the partner. Should we go to the paint store before we go home? Could you not go golfing tomorrow because I’d like to catch up on cleaning the pantry? Sometimes these things were said in a snide way by the partner (you).

Then the high conflict partner would dissect the comment, grab anything negative, and feed that back to the partner.The partner would deny the negative content and try to get back to the matter at hand.

High conflict person would then press their point except more intently, generally doing some mind reading here, and heightening  the emotion.

Around this time, despite the partners best intentions, they would get goaded into getting emotional themselves, saying somethings they would later regret, and bringing in some new damaging material. Or, they were just withdraw And communication would stop. Or, the person would simply be very passive.

Although the original intent of the conversation had been getting less and less, by this point, it was completely abandoned. At this point, the argument ceased to be about anything entirely except for the need to “win, If the partner decided to take this tack.

In the examples that I looked at, I found that despite the partners feelings that they kept things calm and cool, they actually did and said things, sometimes unknowingly, to keep the conflict going. That was not hard, because the high conflict person was already in high dog sniff mode for absolutely anything that could be smelled at 1 per 357,567 jillion parts.

I could not find any examples of where an actual things that needed to be decided was discussed. Where are we going to go on a vacation. What are we going to name the kid.  I don’t know how those kind of conversations went.

Neither did I hear any problem-solving conversations. We’re lost – how do we find our way back to the main road? Any problem solving together did not seem to happen in the examples that I got.

I don’t know if my impressions were accurate. But I want to help people stop the circular arguments that really do nothing except exacerbate the tension and make things worse, and it would be much easier if I knew what I was looking at. Any insight you could give would be great.

[Randi Kreger]

This is research for an upcoming book and I'm asking for your thoughts to a specific question.

I’m wondering if you could help me by please telling me what you fight about, and how long it takes to get off that subject and get off the expressway to to La La Land.

A month ago, I received lots and lots of messages from people, giving me a sort of transcript (from memory) of arguments they  had had.

It was like watching a pinball game being played in infinite space. The verbal volleys went back-and-forth but did not stay on the playing field. They often went out into space where sometimes they drifted off into nothingness and sometimes came back into the fifth dimension.

Generally it started with an innocuous question or comment from the partner. Should we go to the paint store before we go home? Could you not go golfing tomorrow because I’d like to catch up on cleaning the pantry? Sometimes these things were said in a snide way by the partner (you).

Then the high conflict partner would dissect the comment, grab anything negative, and feed that back to the partner.The partner would deny the negative content and try to get back to the matter at hand.

High conflict person would then press their point except more intently, generally doing some mind reading here, and heightening  the emotion.

Around this time, despite the partners best intentions, they would get goaded into getting emotional themselves, saying somethings they would later regret, and bringing in some new damaging material. Or, they were just withdraw And communication would stop. Or, the person would simply be very passive.

Although the original intent of the conversation had been getting less and less, by this point, it was completely abandoned. At this point, the argument ceased to be about anything entirely except for the need to “win, If the partner decided to take this tack.

In the examples that I looked at, I found that despite the partners feelings that they kept things calm and cool, they actually did and said things, sometimes unknowingly, to keep the conflict going. That was not hard, because the high conflict person was already in high dog sniff mode for absolutely anything that could be smelled at 1 per 357,567 jillion parts.

I could not find any examples of where an actual things that needed to be decided was discussed. Where are we going to go on a vacation. What are we going to name the kid.  I don’t know how those kind of conversations went.

Neither did I hear any problem-solving conversations. We’re lost – how do we find our way back to the main road? Any problem solving together did not seem to happen in the examples that I got.

I don’t know if my impressions were accurate. But I want to help people stop the circular arguments that really do nothing except exacerbate the tension and make things worse, and it would be much easier if I knew what I was looking at. Any insight you could give would be great.

[AskingWhy]

Randi, I think the many fights one experiences in a R/S with a pwBPD are about control.

There are no calm "discussions" with BPDs, only fights.  My uBPD H and I don't have "disagreements," only fights.  And H has to be the "winner."  At first, I would be devastated as H would make divorce threats if I did not immediately capitulate to what he wanted, be it a decision on what restaurant to patronise to the way he was abdicating his responsibility to parent his children.  (He is enmeshed with his adult children, and has been the "guilty daddy" since they were all young children.)

My H frequently does not pick up on the subtleties of semantics used in conversation, and he invariably thinks I am insulting him or trying to one-up him; he actively looks for things that I say that might be subtle insults or put-downs.  (In reality, his adult children abuse him and emotionally blackmail him for money and gifts, a carryover from when he was a Disney dad.)  He has a very uNPD F who preferred his brother while they were growing up; my FIL is like a pouty little boy in the body of an elderly man.  He used his W as a pack mule and work horse throughout his 50 year marriage.  

In arguments/fights/disagreements, I am sure H is feeling much like he did as a young boy--that his F was giving him the short end of the stick and he was unable to do anything about it.  As such, H has a serious case of "second best," and now he is vigourously defending his wants and needs--to the detriment of his marriage to me.  Of course, then, there would be the "punitive" measures to follow each "argument":  silent treatment, pouting and withholding of affection.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-almost-effect/201406/male-borderline-personality-disorder-being-second-best

[Ozzie101]

My H and I are able to have conversations but since his BPD symptoms kicked into gear about 7-8 months ago, we haven't been able to have a disagreement.

I'm not a volatile person so I'm generally able to stay calm. However, I do recognize my tendency to JADE, which I've gotten a lot better about. But, as you say, nothing is ever resolved. It usually just ends with both sides tired and frustrated. I go completely cool and passive. He eventually runs himself out and we go to sleep. Things may be a little chilly the next day but by that night, it's back to normal.

I'm sure I do or say things to make it worse, without knowing it.

Here's an example of an "argument":
H was trying to figure out plans for spring break with his son (S8). The trip would involve spending some time with H's bio parents, with whom he has a great relationship and who live near the destination. He was running into difficulties with flights and he hates to drive. H had come up with a way to ask them about timing for staying with them, etc., in a way that wasn't too presumptuous. Asked what I thought and I said that sounded like a good way to approach it.
H (chuckles in an angry way): Why do I bother asking people for advice? It's never good. I should just do what I want or think is best and forget it.
M: What happened?
H: My mom suggested we drive and stop at their house for a couple of days coming and going. I hate driving.
M: Ah. Do they know that? Did you tell them you really want to fly?
H (getting worked up now): Oh, wow. That's really something coming from you. You can't confront your parents about anything. It took two years of our marriage before you would stand up to them and now you're telling me how to be firm and talk to my parents?
M (flabbergasted, because it was a question asked in a pretty neutral tone, just trying to get a feel for the situation): I'm sorry it came across that way. That probably sounded very hypocritical. What I meant was just to ask if they knew you preferred flying. If they didn't know that, then telling them could maybe get a more productive answer.
H: See? This goes right back to every problem we've ever had with your family. You can't stand up to them.
M: I'm not sure what this has to do with spring break.
H: Of course you don't! OK, you're really starting to make me angry now. I hate driving. The last time I drove was that trip to the beach two years ago [when we went on a family vacation with my family] and that was a nightmare trip. We shouldn't have gone, it was a mistake. But, no, we had to go because you wanted to. Well, we're never doing that again.

Thus follows an hour of ranting about my family, my lack of support for him, how I'm tied to my family's apron strings, how I can't handle conflict, and so on. I basically just sat and listened.

He actually pulled himself out of that one. All of a sudden:
H: Wait. I'm going to ask a stupid question. What does any of this have to do with spring break?
M: I don't know.
H: Well, I'm sorry. I just wasted an hour of our lives.

And he was suddenly in a good mood and we went on with our evening.

I should mention that I have a very good relationship with my family. When he's had a genuine beef with them (like, say, an overlooked text), I've talked to them about it. But he's not satisfied because I won't handle it the way he wants me to (cuss them out and cut off contact for months at a time).

I think a big part of the problem is, H has a whole story and dialogue going on in his head -- usually connected to some incident in the past. My mind isn't there at all. So, we're in different worlds, seeing and hearing completely different things. I'm in the present. He's in the past (or his version of it) and since I can't see what's going on in his mind, I have no idea where he really is or what will set him off. Do others find that to be the case?

[Randi Kreger]

Thank you this is very helpful. Looking back, what things do you think you do that make things better, and what things do you do that make things worse?

[Ozzie101]

My calmness does both. It keeps things from going fully nuclear. But he's said before that he finds my calm manner frustrating because he wants me to be as worked up as he is. On more than one occasion he has amped up his behavior to get a rise out of me -- and admitted it. But that's not in my nature (and my DV counselor says that would be bad anyway).

I also struggle with JADEing. Getting better there. It's just hard for me to hear something unfair and untrue and just take it.

[AskingWhy]

I agree that calmness and disengaging help.  No tinder for the conflagration that H wants.  If he says he wants a divorce, common tactic when he dysregulates, I simply say, "Fine. Do what you need to do."  I no longer cry and beg to talk things over.

[WileyCoyote]

It's interesting for me.   I struggled for UNDERSTANDING of what was happening in our conversations.  So much so that I would get derailed onto whatever side argument my wife would throw in to make the conversation go no where as I tried to understand WHY the things being said were being said.   I got lost in that for a long time.  Thinking that her perceptions were accurate, and I needed to understand what I WAS DOING wrong.  But in doing so I contributed to the conversations going no where, all while trying to make them go somewhere.  Maddening.

Denial as well.  "She wouldn't say these mean things if I wasn't doing something wrong"   The thought that someone could act like this was not something I had even considered a reality in my life.   But with therapy, I came to realize that YES, she was acting out and it was not appropriate no matter what I might have done.  And I finally accepted that reality,  absolutely, radically.

So through therapy, I have become more mindful of her actions (and mine  ).  I see them for what they are, and I tell her that, with no animosity.

When she is raging I acknowledge it.   "You seem angry at something, but I don't think it is really me, do you want to talk about it?"
Sometimes yes... .other times more rage.
If there is more rage, then I offer to talk later and move on with MY day.  Remembering.  I am not the one who is upset.

If she is projecting... I tell her.  Sometimes it makes it in and she sees it.  Other times, more rage.
Example:After calling me names and being loud, she will say " you are mean and yell at me" 
I'll just say calmly, "No, that is what you just did, I will not own your actions.  You are projecting your feelings on to me. Can you help me by telling me why you are upset?"

What I am saying here is.  You have to REALLY see the maladaptive behaviour.  See it for what it is. Something that does not demand YOUR emotional labor.  Address it when you can and try to let them see it.  If they refuse to see it, that is when you need to reconsider the situation.

When I do this, it is sometimes met with a look of shock that I can see through her actions.  But her knowing I see it and am not affected by it has her trying figure out what to do now... .

And seriously... .I have seen her trying very hard.   She seems to be genuinely curious as to how I can be calm when she is dysregulating.

Being a good example might not be enough. But it is really all there is.   

[zachira]

Randi,
You might be interested in reading "What Makes Love Last?" by John Gottman and Nate Silver. On page 100, John Gottman says that couple "fights are about nothing." and this is after doing years of research on why some marriages are happy and others are very unhappy and often end in divorce."

[WileyCoyote]

Was thinking... .not sure I answered the original question.  

No, they aren't about anything.  Not a subject or a discussion topic.  They are a tool/adaptation.

Overly simplified but, it seems to me... .
1)The pwBPD feels upset (could be anything)
2) They get into a rumination loop.
 3) Become terrified that these feelings will never end/destroy them
4) Fall back on behavior that worked in the past and was most likely modeled for them/lash out at people close to them so that they can manipulate you with FOG or so that they can point and say to themselves "they are worse than me"

There is no conversation here. Not even a potential for one.  I think many of us can sense this just by how a these types of arguments are initiated.

And it is so odd because for a person who has such difficulty grasping dialectical thought processes they hold onto this one so firmly:
1)You will leave them, it is inevitable.
2)You won't leave them so they can unload on you.  It is a safe place to act out.

In the end I believe that we have to demonstrate that it is indeed NOT a safe place to act out.  And by safe I mean, we should not be taken for granted.  How we do that is a personal choice we all need to think long and hard about.

[5min]

In the sense of true reality, the fights are not about anything. There is no substance to them. In the sense of the pwBPD, they are about their altered reality that fits their emotional state. In the case of my wife, she dreams up the problem and creates a reality where everyone has a nefarious plan against her. Something said, something not said, it does not matter because every word, gesture, and action is twisted or just plain made up to justify her emotional reality.

I see the build up a few days before. A snide comment on her part here and there. Comments on how I'm the problem in her life as we get closer to the event and finally the full rage about nothing. Each "topic" is either not real or something that a healthy person would ignore. Addressing her feelings early escalates into conflict. Talking through during the conflict escalates the conflict. Taking a time out escalates the conflict. Being passive escalates the conflict. Boundaries escalate the conflict. I've come to believe that the fight is about something. It is about the pwBPD's need for self affirmation through the raging and tearing down of others. The fight is a fight response in the truest sense. It is about the pwBPD's need to claw out of the depressive hole in which their mind has imprisoned them.

I look hopefully to your insight in a better way.

[believer55]

Wiley

When she is raging I acknowledge it.   "You seem angry at something, but I don't think it is really me, do you want to talk about it?"
Sometimes yes... .other times more rage.
If there is more rage, then I offer to talk later and move on with MY day.  Remembering.  I am not the one who is upset.

I am going to try to remember this line - I think it will be helpful - thank you.

HwBPD is often trying to assure me that he is not angry with me - while he is yelling and hurtling insults - and I should not take it personally!

I like the idea that you give the other person a chance to explore what has really upset them - but do not become engaged if they can not articulate it at the time. When he tells me what I am thinking and feeling I tend to allow myself to fall into arguing with him and I think I need to stop it right there and redirect as you have suggested.

Thanks again

[loyalwife]

don’t know if my impressions were accurate. But I want to help people stop the circular arguments that really do nothing except exacerbate the tension and make things worse, and it would be much easier if I knew what I was looking at. Any insight you could give would be great.

It's like a record being played over and over again. The only difference is whether or not you will hear the whole argument about the last five (or twenty-five years), or only a portion. Regardless, the point is, there is no point and the purpose is to make you feel train wrecked, which he does successfully. Same argument, kids and dogs... .kids... .dogs... .how much attention I give kids... .how much attention I give dogs... .I never raise my voice or say mean things to him. He's told me to F-off, that he doesn't want to talk to me anymore, he will not sleep with me, that I can live a separate life. It's a double bind. I cannot say or do anything to change his mind or help the situation. I've practiced the suggestions here, and for the most part the best reaction is to not engage. I listen to his 'concerns', validate them and ask him if I can do anything at the moment that would help.

Being in a relationship with him is difficult as these arguments are one sided. He doesn't hear what I have to say and wants to continue in the downward spiral. It must feel familiar and as confusing as it is, safe for him.

As WileyCoyote shared

1)You will leave them, it is inevitable.
2)You won't leave them so they can unload on you.  It is a safe place to act out.

I think deep own, the pwBPD knows that they are mistreating and abusing the other person, by these consistent fights. It makes them feel alive and powerful. The other person thinks that surely, this person that loves them would not ever want to hurt them. But they do. Eventually their worse fears come to pass, but until that time they test out their power in the form of arguments.

What do you think is the best way to approach the re-run when it goes into full blast? Today, I listened until things started to heat up to things being thrown.

[Ozzie101]

HwBPD is often trying to assure me that he is not angry with me - while he is yelling and hurtling insults - and I should not take it personally!

I like the idea that you give the other person a chance to explore what has really upset them - but do not become engaged if they can not articulate it at the time. When he tells me what I am thinking and feeling I tend to allow myself to fall into arguing with him and I think I need to stop it right there and redirect as you have suggested.

My H does the same thing! He'll get worked up at something and start off by saying "Now, I'm not mad at you." But when he goes on to list all the things that were great before we were married, it's hard not to take it personally. Now, I pretty much tune that out.

H tells me what I'm thinking and feeling too and I also have a tendency to argue back.

I'll also keep these tips in mind.

[ortac77]

In my opinion the 'fights' are not about anything in the present. They are rooted in the past, my pwBPD has been very emotionally and verbally abusive but I have kind of figured whilst I am the target in the present, the problem is in the past. To make more sense of that he is constantly trying to change what happened to him in his Family of origin but as he can't do that he is arguing and fighting with me.

Are the fights about anything, no nothing material or factual but feelings and emotions that he cannot express without trying to control and manipulate me.

I am damned if I do/damned if I don't - trying to avoid being harassed I am told I am 'never' there to talk to - but when I do engage I am told that I am the problem and there is nothing to talk about.

I have said today if "I am the problem' he should move out of my house and live alone, abandonment issue? Yes but he keeps telling me that he does not care for or about me and that he feels nothing for me. I have had weeks of him picking fights over nothing, today it was a spoon in the wrong drawer, yet his room upstairs is brimful of clutter and mess. Yesterday it was I never help him, but when I offer to I am told to 'f off' - he doesn't need help!

At one level I do get it - I see the pain, I see the turmoil and self induced chaos - he is very sick at the moment but I am out of compassion, have no desire to fight or argue and really don't think I can do this anymore as my ability to see the illness as separate from the person has been compromised and I don't want fights or rows over his emotions/his beliefs anymore . I am done!  

[ortac77]

In my opinion the 'fights' are not about anything in the present. They are rooted in the past, my pwBPD has been very emotionally and verbally abusive but I have kind of figured whilst I am the target in the present, the problem is in the past. To make more sense of that he is constantly trying to change what happened to him in his Family of origin but as he can't do that he is arguing and fighting with me.

Are the fights about anything, no nothing material or factual but feelings and emotions that he cannot express without trying to control and manipulate me.

I am damned if I do/damned if I don't - trying to avoid being harassed I am told I am 'never' there to talk to - but when I do engage I am told that I am the problem and there is nothing to talk about.

I have said today if "I am the problem' he should move out of my house and live alone, abandonment issue? Yes but he keeps telling me that he does not care for or about me and that he feels nothing for me. I have had weeks of him picking fights over nothing, today it was a spoon in the wrong drawer, yet his room upstairs is brimful of clutter and mess. Yesterday it was I never help him, but when I offer to I am told to 'f off' - he doesn't need help!

At one level I do get it - I see the pain, I see the turmoil and self induced chaos - he is very sick at the moment but I am out of compassion, have no desire to fight or argue and really don't think I can do this anymore as my ability to see the illness as separate from the person has been compromised and I don't want fights or rows over his emotions/his beliefs anymore . I am done! 

[loyalwife]

My upwBPD husband is again on a rage. It started when I made a remark about one of his plans. He is constantly making new plans (business), some stick some don't. That's the price of business. I was asking questions as to salary amount he was going to pay for someone to help him(we are stretched), and without any idea of where our finances are, it was a logical concern. In the past, he's either promised too much, expected too much or wasn't able to follow through. Anyway... .it all got turned around, and the reason that he doesn't have money is the fault of my son. I also find out that he is holding my son responsible for all the debt he has incurred in the last 4 years. It's a long story, one that doesn't make sense, but he blames him for our 'ruining our marriage'. Even with all the validating in the world, closed ears are closed ears. I asked him if he could somehow put the past to rest, and move on.  Not for my son's sake, but for his sake. The constant battle in my husband's head is about three years ago. My son lived with us for about six months, and it was horrible. He told me today as he has in the past that if God gave him one ticket to do what he wanted he would shoot my son in the head. This isn't the first time he's made this remark. There is no argument, it is insanity. He talks about how unhappy he is, but will not do anything about it. Leaving me, or me leaving is not the answer. Why can't someone with BPD forgive? They want to be forgiven, but refuse to forgive anyone else. My husband is estranged from everyone in his family and money is the main reason. He says that my son costs him $3,000. a month, and he doesn't even live here (hasn't for 2 years). Just thinking about the past makes him feel that he's not getting the life he deserves or wants. I cannot do a thing to change this. This is double blind. As ortac77 said, damned if you do, damned if you don't. I see through this, and see someone that has his wires crossed. As tight as he holds onto the belief that money will make him happy, he has no idea how happy he could be in this moment, now. It's not the money, it's not my son or my dog, it's his head and the constant rumination.  He said that all we do is argue. I agreed and said then stop. He said "Why do you keep on bringing it up".  I want to tear my hair out, but instead try to understand. Today is the first day that I have contemplated what it would be like without the constant chaos and anger. What it would be like if I were not here anymore for him to abuse. He said that it costs the same for me to be here as it would for me to go, although he said he'd be better off without me. There's a dollar sign on our marriage now. He doesn't want to lose anymore money, and instead wanted me to feel the pain he has been feeling since the day we met. Wow. Not what I signed up for.