I dont think all the bad would be enough to stop me from seeing her again

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

So one thing when I went back each time for a recycle, where it always led to was - spending my time with a girl trying to recapture all that I was attracted to - prior

I wonder about this myself now.  my ex and i went through a lot of on/off recycles if thats the correct term and did the same thing, mostly trying to recapture the feeling of everything being good again.  the difference now besides the relationship seemingly being dead is the lying that was admitted at the end, and my own discovery of what i believe to be BPD (certainly high functioning, but enough there).  I have wondered what I would do in the event she did come back around again in a few months.  I would think it is as simple as have i moved on yet.  if i havent, i dont think all the bad at the end would be enough to stop me from seeing her again if thats what she wanted.  If i have really let go, then i'd like to think all that went on would be a dealbreaker.  it should have been at the time, only more so should it be right now.

[Al Kaseltzer]

So one thing when I went back each time for a recycle, where it always led to was - spending my time with a girl trying to recapture all that I was attracted to - prior

I wonder about this myself now.  my ex and i went through a lot of on/off recycles if thats the correct term and did the same thing, mostly trying to recapture the feeling of everything being good again.  the difference now besides the relationship seemingly being dead is the lying that was admitted at the end, and my own discovery of what i believe to be BPD (certainly high functioning, but enough there).  I have wondered what I would do in the event she did come back around again in a few months.  I would think it is as simple as have i moved on yet.  if i havent, i dont think all the bad at the end would be enough to stop me from seeing her again if thats what she wanted.  If i have really let go, then i'd like to think all that went on would be a dealbreaker.  it should have been at the time, only more so should it be right now.

[Cromwell]

Hi Al Kaseltzer

it is tempting I know, this pain/reward/punishment stuff, it was addictive.

one minute cheated on (punished) a week later back together on Valentines Day, living the propped up facade of fantasy that nothing really happened.

if thats what she wanted.

I see what your doing here and its smart, but heres the other side of the coin. You can go into this r/s again being guarded, but then there is the counter force of lack of emotional intimacy. Not sure about your ex, but mine was too much of an emotional mastermind to make it that easy for me to do.

 all the bad

Being cheated on was supposed to have always been my "dealbreaker", except, for some reason 2 weeks later she was back - on valentines day. romantic right? I thought so too, except thats the problem, having to maintain this brilliance of resumption of a fantasy that never truly was. The recapturing of the feeling is exactly crystal clear of how you state it - a feeling, that existed and then was or, should have been, drenched with a bucket of cold water.

its up to us to either wake up truly from it or sleep walk through it.

Whatever bad happened, it amounts to a bit of weighing up of how much is perceived at stake to lose by carrying on where left off.

She offered the illusion to me that what she did could be washed away and I bought into it. Alka Seltzer, it really is a case of trying to crystal ball forecast, a form of gambling. i did it thinking the worst already happened so what was there to lose anyway. Turns out that cheating wasnt the worst that could happen, but hey, I was brought up with the notion of "if you dont try youll never know" and "love can surmount anything"

what a load of BS

I got a lot of help here eventually, thought I had a grip on this whole BPD stuff, until I saw her again and my knees went to jelly and all rational, all that id listened to was bypassed - that temptation and addiction combined disregarded all that was sensible or rational. Feelings became facts - despite all she had done, she made me feel that way - so - ergo - this must be love and its just a case of persevering a bit more with it.

Its true after I learned more here, that she never managed to hurt again and we spent the summer together, but Alka - despite the most picturesque scenery, the new "special" moments - the spending of time together (and the opportunity cost of doing so)... .nope, lots of feelings, but that original feeling that was once so special - I just couldnt ever get it back. BTW, your nickname is great, I could use one or two.

It helped towards closure though and I wonder how much this wish to see your ex again might be rooted in this.

Thanks to all folks who did the poll. results so far - yipes - something went wrong, it feels a bit gloomy polls like this, I might do a more dopamine producing "do you still love but dont trust" poll next time soon.

still love but dont trust, I think im thinking too much - probably was true love, this bamboozling of the senses. I think ive had too much to drink again. or not enough

[Al Kaseltzer]

I see what your doing here and its smart, but heres the other side of the coin. You can go into this r/s again being guarded, but then there is the counter force of lack of emotional intimacy. Not sure about your ex, but mine was too much of an emotional mastermind to make it that easy for me to do.

Being cheated on was supposed to have always been my "dealbreaker", except, for some reason 2 weeks later she was back - on valentines day. romantic right? I thought so too, except thats the problem, having to maintain this brilliance of resumption of a fantasy that never truly was. The recapturing of the feeling is exactly crystal clear of how you state it - a feeling, that existed and then was or, should have been, drenched with a bucket of cold water.

its up to us to either wake up truly from it or sleep walk through it.

Hey Cromwell, good way to put it, i feel like ive been awakened to something that i can't un-learn or wipe out of my memory.  so if i did go back into it, i'd never be able to do so being as naive as i was in the past.  that can be looked at in the sense that i'd better navigate myself next time, or it could be looked at how i think you seemed to have done so which is that you can never let your guard down ever again.  it doesnt seem like that would ever be a formula for a natural and rewarding relationship.

I got a lot of help here eventually, thought I had a grip on this whole BPD stuff, until I saw her again and my knees went to jelly and all rational, all that id listened to was bypassed - that temptation and addiction combined disregarded all that was sensible or rational. Feelings became facts - despite all she had done, she made me feel that way - so - ergo - this must be love and its just a case of persevering a bit more with it.

Its true after I learned more here, that she never managed to hurt again and we spent the summer together, but Alka - despite the most picturesque scenery, the new "special" moments - the spending of time together (and the opportunity cost of doing so)... .nope, lots of feelings, but that original feeling that was once so special - I just couldnt ever get it back. BTW, your nickname is great, I could use one or two.

It helped towards closure though and I wonder how much this wish to see your ex again might be rooted in this.

I dont even know what i want right now, closure or another chance or both.  I admit that I would do the same if she came back around again tomorrow, i'd go back to it.  Its one of those things that messes with you because i similarly feel like i could spend an endless amount of time gaining knowledge and insight and using others experiences as well as my own as enough of a foundation to never go back, and yet, give me 30 mins together and it'll be all i need.

just curious, you said you spent the summer together, did the relationship end with you being unable to go on with them or did they end it?

[Cromwell]

Forgive me Alka im very drunk but you will get a quality response.

better than Shari Shreiber this is not some tout for business or open ended overly cautious "oh its BPD just run away"

Alka I spent the summer working on closure, 3 months of the most picturesque scenery.

I didnt listen to anyone, id already been heartbroken, whats to lose.

and I learned a lot, extra pieces to the jig saw puzzle.

She tried all she could do to connect, to remedy, but when something has broken like porcelain once broken and fixed up its never the same.

I ended it Alka Seltzer, there was a countdown timer, I waited for the disinhibited text and it came 3 months on from the second honeymoon period.

3 years, a nonchalant, "block", delete, back to bed.

they cant help it (theres a fact not a generalisation)

when people here talk about the pain of being "discarded" or slice and dice about who dumped who  - (like it actually matters) - ask yourself "what have I discarded, what has been lost"

this was a one way connection that summated for 3 years... .and never got a connection.

its a force field that will never shut down. sounds like a challenge right?I wouldnt stop anyone trying.

I hope you come back here as the first person I get to read has cracked the BPD enigma code.

ill be like "woohoo", there is a way after all. If you get the chance, heres some prep: you might see apparent "breakdown in tears" that can turn into a smirk within a second. A rage that has became the equivalent of bacground noise, attenuated through seeing it too many time before.

sex has turned into a mechanical equivalent of the tv series "robot wars"

you will get used to your every word, movement, choice of dinner, Xrayed a mental note taken down. all useful stuff apparently - 3 years of summation, firing that impulse.

nothing that put it over the threshold, sure it "felt" like it. Thats all ive got Alka Seltzer, the presentation of a rehearsed act of what emotional intamacy is, that faded after 3 months.

theres someone that helped me immeasurably on this board, probably strong enough to get out of the purgatory im still in. heres the quote

When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. Maya Angelou

you might go back to her, theres always a big fat question mark hanging over her head. what led you here cant be more than airbrushed away.

the world loves a trier though, so go for it. I -guardedly held out some extra hope and got my extra jigsaw pieces in return... .it helped

porcelain once broken, impossible to fully fix to what it was

[Skip]

Al,

I'd be careful comparing relationships as a way to anticipate the future. People with BPD traits have in common emotional intensity, emotional idealism, impulsivity, and great fears and protective shields to guard them from having an emotional  meltdown (e.g., suicidal tendencies).  At the same time, they have all the personalty, style, diversity of everyone else.

It's also important keep in mind that our side or the relationships differs greatly. For example, Cromwell's relationship has (and he can explain it better), the initial infidelity was on his side, there was ghosting, and some psychological/emotional retaliation.

You say you would likely go back if given the chance. Of course you would. You didn't end this and you feel their is unfinished opportunity. That's a normal thing to feel. Now that you know more (or can learn more) you manage your side of the relationship in a more constructive way based on tools you can learn.  You also will be more able to evaluate he relationship now that you have read up it it - assess how serious it is.

I think you also mentioned that you would like to contact her and you are concerned that it might be a bad idea.  I think these are well targeted thoughts.  Both make sense. You want to contact her for all the reasons in the paragraph above, but you know that reaching into her new relationship which is in its honeymoon stage is likely to create hard feeling toward you (stalker, clingy, etc.). She is far more likely not to be receptive than be receptive - this is not a BPD thing.

So where does that leave you?  

I think it leaves you as a brokenhearted guy.  You lost someone you care about. Fixating on her flaws might help a little bit, but you know your feeling deep down and this is loss for you. There is no easy out, it hurts. You can talk and grieve with folks here. The old relationship is over.  Even if the two of your connect, unless it was a different style relationship, there is not much future, so either way, the old relationship is a season past. Let yourself grieve that.  

So what about the future?

You don't know what lies ahead. As you say, most new relationships fail, so she may very well lose interest with the new guy.

If she does, will she turn to you?  You mentioned earlier that you have recycled many times and that may be a testament to the strength of the relationship. It very well may be, however, the staged collapse of the relationship. Many of us (especially men) tend to think of recycles as a fresh start, but often they are really a serial progression of deterioration.

If it takes more than 4-8 weeks, will you wait?  How long will you wait in uncertainty?

How much time and work did you need to do before starting to date again?

I think you probably want to look at all these things and how you can work your way forward on multiple tracks so that you are in these best place for whatever it is you will face in 8 weeks (or whatever time you put on it).

There is a lot to unpack here, I am only trying to give you a 35,000 ft view of how you might want to look forward.

Skip

[Al Kaseltzer]

Skip,

thanks for the insight, I agree with pretty much all of it.  One thing i have continued to do since this ended and since i sort of stumbled across this BPD aspect is to try and not complicate it more than it needs to be regarding certain things, namely reaching out.  You are right, in that reaching out while they are currently seeing someone else has about a 2% chance of going well, regardless of BPD traits or not.  Its not like i expect that something i said today would all of sudden cause her to just do a complete 180.  Even saying something like "Merry Christmas"... .what would that serve.  If i got no response, id feel bad. if i got a lukewarm "you too" id feel bad, if i got a "leave me alone" id feel awful. 

Also true that i cant sit around and wait forever for them to come back.  even if the new relationship ends, it doesnt mean they automatically come back.  i guess i question if or what role something like BPD would have (if any) in what she thought about me if that relationship concluded.  i dont know enough about the whole "splitting" thing and other traits and if she carries all of that, and how much of a role, if any, it plays going forward after a more significant break (and with someone else involved).

as you say, every case is different, every person is different.  i guess one of the things i have found intriguing from stories on here are having similar on/off recycles that eventually conclude and what is it caused by.  like what is the definitive thing that made them go from breaking up and getting back together over and over again to the point where now they are done, gone and never coming back.

i dont remember if i said this here yet or if someone else has perhaps, but...

this has been like GROUNDHOG DAY.  that is what the last few weeks has been.  i literally wake up feeling the same empty, hollow, depressed way at a time of day about 3-4 hours earlier that it needs to be.  i work through my emotions as the day goes on.  i may be sad or i may go out with friends and forget about things with some drinks.  i may be angry at the situation and keep telling myself good riddance.  i may look to this board for reinforcements that it just really is not something that can work out anyway, and to cut my losses.  and yet, every single morning i wake up feeling the exact same way.  whatever progressions took place throughout yesterday are wiped clean by the next morning.

[once removed]

i guess one of the things i have found intriguing from stories on here are having similar on/off recycles that eventually conclude and what is it caused by.  like what is the definitive thing that made them go from breaking up and getting back together over and over again to the point where now they are done, gone and never coming back.

unfinished business on both sides.

one or two makeup/breakup cycles in a relationship are common, around 60%. after that, makeup/breakup cycles do exponentially greater damage to the relationship. trust is greatly diminished. guards and walls are up. one or both have a foot outside the relationship (you mentioned that was true in your case), and may be on a hair trigger to explode and break it off. its a very tall order to turn that around even if both are pretty committed to trying.

i dont think there is a definitive thing. i think there are a variety of things, and in some cases a combination of things like:

Why do we get caught up in cycles?
 
These are the questions we need to answer if we ever want the break-up/make-up cycle to end.  Are we returning to this person because we are in love with them and the relationship has a chance, or are we returning to this person because they feel safe?
 
Are we afraid to be alone?   
Do we have our own abandonment issues?   
Are we fearful that we cannot find someone as good as them again?   
Are we fearful of the next step (dating, financial issues, etc.) 

Why do our "BPD" partners recycle?
 
It is hard for us to understand why our partner is expressing an interest after they left in a torrent of bad behavior (e.g., cheating, raging and telling us that we are a horrible people).  "If they don't love me, why this?"  The answer is much of the same reasons as we have... .plus a few others that are related to the disorder.
 
Inability to deal with acute loneliness
Severe insecurity / needing validation (from someone that highly values them)
Shame / wanting to prove they are a good person (to us or themselves)
Immaturity/Manipulation/Control - the break-up was just a way to get their way.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=95860.0

sometimes its even for the best of reasons, but the two cant get on the same page.

this has been like GROUNDHOG DAY.  that is what the last few weeks has been.  i literally wake up feeling the same empty, hollow, depressed way at a time of day about 3-4 hours earlier that it needs to be.

how long has it been since the breakup? there are some ways to combat this.

[Al Kaseltzer]

about a month

[once removed]

okay. some of it will lessen with time alone. if youre between "wanting to go back" and "wanting to be strong enough not to go back" (which is similar to where i was) then at a month, things are pretty fresh. your body will adapt and regulate a bit, thoughts and feelings will be less present, less frequent, if you do nothing but live. theres a risk of building depression and internalizing wounds though, so i obviously wouldnt recommend doing nothing, but it may help to know this wont last forever.

maintaining and building routine the best you can goes a long way. changing it up though can be really helpful. just planning something you can have to look forward to the next day will start to shift your thoughts, and begin to replace those feelings that set in upon waking up. setting some time limits and having some healthy distractions to break up the routine of the intrusive thoughts/feelings too. you wake up, you feel bad quickly, you try to force yourself to do something a little different, and in a couple of weeks, that will have a positive effect, a new normal.

there are a host of other things like spending lots of time around close friends/family, working out, diving into old hobbies as well as developing new ones/learning new skills (builds the confidence and good feelings), all of these things can go a long way. additionally, i recommend seeing your doctor and/or a therapist. if youre depressed or anxious, it can get overwhelming, it can be hard to function, and its hard to fight.

[Al Kaseltzer]

there are a host of other things like spending lots of time around close friends/family, working out, diving into old hobbies as well as developing new ones/learning new skills (builds the confidence and good feelings), all of these things can go a long way. additionally, i recommend seeing your doctor and/or a therapist. if youre depressed or anxious, it can get overwhelming, it can be hard to function, and its hard to fight.

Ive never been to a therapist before but seriously considering it as of the last week or so.  is there anything specific i should be looking for as far as how to pick one?

I do wonder how much of the way im feeling is just simply being broken up with as opposed to the idea that i feel significantly worse due to the unhealthy relationship, and not just that it ended.  i cant tell if im digging too deep into BPD traits and how that would effect me moving on rather than just being like "the relationship with someone i felt connected to ended against my wishes, and that really sucks".  sometimes i think im reading too much into everything, other times too many things add up.

[once removed]

Ive never been to a therapist before but seriously considering it as of the last week or so.  is there anything specific i should be looking for as far as how to pick one?

partly depends on which kind of therapy youd be exploring... .anything from CBT, EMDR is popular here, psychotherapy, DBT, schema therapy (hard to find)... .

beyond that it depends on what you want out of therapy, and communicating that to a prospective therapist. would you want to just vent? would you want to be challenged? would you want to talk about BPD?

I do wonder how much of the way im feeling is just simply being broken up with as opposed to the idea that i feel significantly worse due to the unhealthy relationship, and not just that it ended.  i cant tell if im digging too deep into BPD traits and how that would effect me moving on rather than just being like "the relationship with someone i felt connected to ended against my wishes, and that really sucks". 

this is a good question for the Learning board, and id very much encourage you to explore it there in greater detail.

[Al Kaseltzer]

Don't know what I'm looking for, just want to not feel this way anymore. I'll have to do some research.

Guess it's a Christmas thing but I have such an awful urge to reach out. I haven't felt this broken down and lost since the first few days following the breakup. I really don't know what I'm going to do. Forget about an ex pwBPD, this is more so about really bad co-dependency.

[Luan]

Hi Al

The first thing to know is you are not alone, I am going through the very same feelings, wondering why I can't progress out of this fog. One day I think I have moved forward, only to feel like I am right back where I started. Understanding what happened through reading etc has helped, but also makes you want to go back to do things differently. I too, am waiting for the disassociation to stop, for her to 'remember' our relationship. Even if she does, I have no idea how I would be able to stop it happening again, knowing what I do about being with an undiagnosed partner.

So... .I am taking the approach of wanting to be her friend. Treating her as a friend, and not taking her attitude personally. I will remain consistent with the friendship, not expect anything in return, and hope that we build trust. Without that, we got nothing. Game over. She has begun to treat me as a somewhat prosaic friend, which gives me hope, and I am holding all feelings back to just mirror that. Tough job.

Spending time with other friends is really important. Having fun in my life is really important. I can honestly say this relationship has changed me irrevocably. I see the world differently, I see myself differently. That is why it is hard to move forward - you want the cause of that change to move forward with you. Imagine you achieved a medical breakthrough with a colleague, and the moment it was done you never spoke with that person again! The sense of loss, of not being able to share would be huge.

We can only focus on ourselves. I have and am exercising, being centred and present, unattached to outcomes, loving myself, loving my friends and family. This all takes practice and time to rebuild. I am lucky in that I practiced these skills before I had met my uBPD, and it has been a struggle to get back, but I am getting there.

It's frustrating to have all this information and insight I would like to share with her, and virtually no way of doing so. I thought about therapy myself for a while, but am now feeling I am beginning to let go. Let go of control, anger, jealousy, abandonment, and replace it with compassion and acceptance. Unconditional love and endless patience. That ___ is hard, but if you can do it Al, you will be 10 times stronger than you were, and maybe of some use to your BPD partner if she ever comes back around.

It is your ego that has taken the worst hit of all, not your heart. Your heart knows the love you shared is immortal, your ego feels you've been short changed after paying top dollar for a sports car that broke down as you were leaving the showroom.

Just for you, my latest mantra... .

"If hundreds of birds strew my path with flowers, such praise would be meaningless."

[crushedagain]

Don't know what I'm looking for, just want to not feel this way anymore. I'll have to do some research.

Guess it's a Christmas thing but I have such an awful urge to reach out. I haven't felt this broken down and lost since the first few days following the breakup. I really don't know what I'm going to do. Forget about an ex pwBPD, this is more so about really bad co-dependency.

I think the urges to reach out are normal. I can't tell you how many times I wanted to send off an email. Sometimes I wanted to say "I loved you more than you'll ever know," (which admittedly I am poor at saying during relationships), other times I felt like lashing out - "It was completely unacceptable what you did! Good riddance, I'll find a way better woman!" My emotions have run the gamut.

One thing I have realized, though, is I have no desire to know what she's doing, who she's with, etc. I have zero doubt she's with another man - she can't be alone, but ignorance is bliss in that regard. The bottom line for me is I know that I cannot reach out and get a favorable outcome, because no favorable outcome exists for this past relationship. That's part of the painful truth that hurts me. This person did not hold up her end of the bargain, and she disrespected me and the relationship to the point that it is dead and gone.

[Al Kaseltzer]

One thing I have realized, though, is I have no desire to know what she's doing, who she's with, etc. I have zero doubt she's with another man - she can't be alone, but ignorance is bliss in that regard. The bottom line for me is I know that I cannot reach out and get a favorable outcome, because no favorable outcome exists for this past relationship. That's part of the painful truth that hurts me. This person did not hold up her end of the bargain, and she disrespected me and the relationship to the point that it is dead and gone.

The day I don't have a desire to know what she's doing or wishing she was spending her time with me will be progress, I'm not there yet. As far as a favorable outcome goes... i don't think much good can come from reaching out, I'm just not going to get what I want to hear, not tonight at least. I tell myself I can't feel worse but I think I can, I'm using that to stop me at the moment.  As far as thinking there can be no positive outcome to be had down the road, well if I can come to that conclusion that there is no possible future for us I'd like to think that would help me detach. Unfortunately I'm still in the phase of thinking that there could be a future. Whether I'm being delusional or not is a different story.

Thanks to both you and Luan for the thoughtful responses. Today has been such a drain emotionally and a drag in general. I'm hoping some regular days and routines will level me off a little bit, it sucks having to pretend to be in a good mood when I'm dying inside.

The last few days when I have been in somewhat better spirits (few and far between) I have felt like there's been tons of cute girls in my orbit and I just think to myself, like get over this already. There are millions of cool, healthy women just walking around all over the place. If only... .

[crushedagain]

I do understand how very painful it is. I was in your place last fall/winter. It was a dark, ugly place. It was the worst I have ever felt. The loss of her and everything I had hoped for in the future was almost worse than the loss of some of my family members I have experienced.

I had anxiety so bad I would wake up with night terrors, shaking and sweating with my heart racing. I would lunge out of bed clutching the wall, thinking I might have to call 911 because I was sure I was having a heart attack. It was that bad. The woman who slept next to me for two years and provided me a degree of comfort I didn't even realize was now a figment of my imagination, gone and replaced by an empty void. I could still smell her on the pillow and I didn't want to wash the pillowcases. It was like somebody stole the only tool I had to survive.

I still haven't reached the point where I don't wish she was spending time with me. But when I say I have never wanted to know what she is doing/who she is with/etc., it's because the pain would be too great. I felt this way from the moment she walked out the door.

I am so glad I have no social media and don't even care to look. I would be torturing myself if I did. I don't understand why people do that. I feel better not knowing.

[Red5]

I have to say, .I wonder what I would do “if I got the call”, which I am absolutely positive in my mind that will never happen... .  but the “what if”’ thought does keep crossing my mind.

She has been moved out into her own place for a little over three weeks now.

I am pretty positive that she is extremely angry with me for not stopping her, even after everything that happened.

Anger is a very powerful fuel... .it’s what keeps her going... .

I texted her S31 yesterday morning, he is in the USAF, and he and his wife flew down from North Dakota to visit her, this trip had been planned long before the meltdown on 16 November, and was one of the reasons she wanted to move out and away and settled so swiftly... .so that she would have her new household all set up for his visit... .

He told me during the aftermath that he kind of saw this coming and did not blame me for just letting her go... .

I do think I could have stopped her if I’d taken all the blame and responsibility for her actions that morning... .  bit I didn’t... .

Her S31 told me that him and his wife wanted to come here one afternoon to see me and my S32(autistic)... .“but Mom would have none of it, and I decided not to in order to avoid the ensuing drama during our visit”... .exact words... .

He said he missed seeing us and to have a good Christmas... .

He was on duty back up in Minot on Christmas Day.

Yeah... .I do wonder what I would do if she were to call me up, and want to “work on us”, and try to reconcile... .  exude she has cancer and she does not have much time left... .

Right now I could not give an honest answer as to what I’d do... .

I know I might say to her, “if we do this... .I require therapy for you and me”... .I’d put that on the table... .

At which time... .I think she would retreat most likely... .or maybe she wouldn’t... .round and round I go... .

No, I’m deep in the Black with her, she’s got her anger to keep her warm and safe from me, the thought of me, and what ever scraps of love and commitment I may still harbor for her deep down in my little plastic replacement heart... .that has been installed to replace the original that was crushed so long ago by the first wife... .

Today is a new day... .let’s rejoice and be glad in it... .one day at a time... .

Hang in there Al,

Red5

[once removed]

I tell myself I can't feel worse but I think I can

i dont mean to be a downer, because i know from experience that it gets better. one month from now, you will feel better.

i can also tell you that when i finally let go, i went into a deep depression, a darker sort of thing than the endless anxiety and rumination that had plagued me before, more like grieving a death.

sometimes things do seem to get worse before they get better (i think that its all part of the process/progress, but we can feel some powerful stuff later on that our psyches wouldnt quite let us fully feel at the time). grab the bull by the horns Al. see that doctor. see that therapist. your family here is an adjunct for that, not a substitute.

As far as thinking there can be no positive outcome to be had down the road, well if I can come to that conclusion that there is no possible future for us I'd like to think that would help me detach.

i am not an advocate for painting ones ex black. i am an advocate for realistically weighing the pros and cons and possibilities, and exploring all feelings about ones ex, the good and the bad.

concluding that there is no possible future for you is a matter of deciding it for yourself, Al. deciding it takes us into another stage of grief that we tend not to want to face because it hurts. every stage hurts. its moving through the stages that moves us toward the Freedom stage of Detachment, in a "the only way out is through" kind of way. "Attachment leads to suffering. Detachment leads to freedom.". the curious thing is that we hang on because in some way its less painful than the alternative, yet it perpetuates our pain. letting go hurts, a lot; its the different, deeper, darker depression i felt. but it does end, and it melts into something very different. moving through the stages takes some structured work, and usually, some pain.

in terms of concluding there is no future: i might recommend more deeply exploring the reasons that you personally doubt a future, or wouldnt want to see one. i would recommend doing more than just meditating on them, but putting them down on paper; sharing them here if it helps.

there were a lot of deep values clashes and deal breakers between my ex and i. a deep religious divide. the fact that i didnt want to raise children in the kind of environment in which our conflict existed. there were also a lot of ways in which i fundamentally did not respect my ex, or even like her as a person (which i later needed to explore in a more balanced way). after the breakup though, she was on a pedestal, in my mind, because of my deep, deep sense of rejection. i was aware of all of this in my head, but in writing it down the darker thoughts/feelings, i really tapped into them, and i saw her in a more balanced and realistic way. i could see the good and the bad in a way where one didnt outweigh the other necessarily, and that made things so much more manageable.

now, a stronger man than me might not have needed to lean on bashing his ex to himself, but i did turn a corner, and i reached my balance in time, when i was stronger. it also need not be "ex bashing" so much as pros and cons, deal breakers, values differences, and some things you genuinely didnt/dont like.

having said all that, a balanced approach involves feeling all your feelings, good and bad. its okay to miss her. its okay to "not be further along" than you think youre supposed to be. try to avoid judging your feelings/process, or putting undue pressure on yourself to feel something else.

[Al Kaseltzer]

concluding that there is no possible future for you is a matter of deciding it for yourself, Al. deciding it takes us into another stage of grief that we tend not to want to face because it hurts. every stage hurts. its moving through the stages that moves us toward the Freedom stage of Detachment, in a "the only way out is through" kind of way. "Attachment leads to suffering. Detachment leads to freedom.". the curious thing is that we hang on because in some way its less painful than the alternative, yet it perpetuates our pain. letting go hurts, a lot; its the different, deeper, darker depression i felt. but it does end, and it melts into something very different. moving through the stages takes some structured work, and usually, some pain.

There is a lot of truth in what you are saying OR.  the inability or desire to not let go and move on (or shall we say, to continue to have hope) is about not wanting to acknowledge that it is over.  but you are right, the hanging on day in and day out is unhealthy and halts all forward motion, or at least it has in my case.  Maybe not letting go is done as a way of not having to face the next set of harsh realities and obstacles that you are detailing.

in terms of concluding there is no future: i might recommend more deeply exploring the reasons that you personally doubt a future, or wouldnt want to see one. i would recommend doing more than just meditating on them, but putting them down on paper; sharing them here if it helps.

I dont know that i personally doubt a future or wouldnt want to see one,  i just dont see it based on today, and how she left off with me, but certainly time and feelings change.  I guess i am just trying to tell myself that it is indeed over to help myself move on, for fear that if i keep hope alive ill just waste precious time in my life waiting around.  not to mention that the healthier choice is to move on. 

I completely have her on a pedestal right now in my head, as i did anytime we broke up and i think in the past she fed off of that.  she probably figures i am still obsessed with her, even though i havent reached out or had contact with her in a while.  its part of why i feel like i can't.  its likely that with a new relationship, all of this is now irrelevant, but i just feel like my only option at this point is to appear strong, to not chase or keep reaching out.  I said how i felt when things ended, and she knew it anyway.  i honestly have looked for reasons and excuses to reach out, but nothing has outweighed what the downside would be, not yet at least.

thanks for the encouragement, seems like a tough road ahead.

[CharlieRose30]

Hi Al,

I’ve just read through this entire thread. Unfortunately I don’t have much in terms of advice, but I did want to tell you that I’m going through exactly what you are right now. I felt like I wrote this. In particular:

“this has been like GROUNDHOG DAY.  that is what the last few weeks has been.  i literally wake up feeling the same empty, hollow, depressed way at a time of day about 3-4 hours earlier that it needs to be.  i work through my emotions as the day goes on.  i may be sad or i may go out with friends and forget about things with some drinks.  i may be angry at the situation and keep telling myself good riddance.  i may look to this board for reinforcements that it just really is not something that can work out anyway, and to cut my losses.  and yet, every single morning i wake up feeling the exact same way.  whatever progressions took place throughout yesterday are wiped clean by the next morning.”

I wake up each morning and think “what’s the point”. I go through the motions but it’s still the same, every morning. I’m not sure what I’m getting at here, but know that you’re not the only one feeling these things.

[Red5]

I’ve just read through this entire thread. Unfortunately I don’t have much in terms of advice, but I did want to tell you that I’m going through exactly what you are right now. I felt like I wrote this. In particular:

I am in the same boat... .its after two AM here, and there is no hope of sleep for me, reckon its a good thing I had the week off.

She's been gone twenty eight days now... .the last verbal contact was the Saturday she started moving out, 1 December, and we haven't talked since, .only texts, last text was 11 December, and it was a message from the vet she relayed.

I understand why we split up, it was because she hit my kid (she's step mom), and I told her to leave, or else me and the kid would... .so she moved out.

We been married eight years come next Tuesday, as New Years day is our anniversary.

We started dating in 2007, so we've "been together" for over eleven years.

She is my second wife, .

She was supposed to be my "girl"... .my best friend... .what the heck happened to us ; (

We had big plans... .we made a commitment, we even got married in the Church, a huge affair... .some family had traveled clear across the country to be at our wedding... .we were both going to get it right this time... .we were "perfect" for each other... .

... .so what the heck happened... . BPD?

I will tell you all up front, this is starting to get to me... .I played tough and brave for a while now... .but today was not easy, I had to fight the urge to call her up... .I fought that urge all day... .I've been really ruminating lately.

We've had very severe problems for years now... .and there is no doubt in my mind that she is BPD, maybe npd too, .she is what we would read about as a "high functioning BPD"... .an invisible BPD, as she is very good at masking it in the public... .for a while anyway.

She is far to the right on the spectrum imho, a possible "queen" with hermit tendencies... .it got to the point that I could see her digress back to some kind of "delayed" angry teenager, a weird child like "state" when she would lose it, and dysregulate.

Scary stuff, .and its only gotten worse the last several years, after she got dx with ca-ncer... .sta-ge iv... .r-c-c... .she's really deteriorated... .both emotionally, and physically... .

I'm feeling tons of guilt, I should have stopped her from moving out, .but then I have an even bigger concern with my Son, who is autistic, whom she basically attacked, and resulted in her punching him in his head, because she thought he was taking to long in the bathroom that morning... .ugh : (

... .the proverbial "last straw", .the "deal breaker"... .

My mind keeps going in reverse, thinking that "it maybe could be ok"... ."maybe she will sink low enough to want to get help"... .nope... .it will never happen... .

... .round and round I go with myself... .today I was going down the road in my jeep, and I reached into the center console for something, and there was my wedding band, and the orange can-cer bracelet I'v been wearing to "support her"... .I actually started to f'ing cry like a   baby... .so I slipped that ring back on my finger, and that bracelet as well... .and I wore them all day, to try and maybe quell that urge to reach out to her... .at least until my Son and his mentor came home this evening... .I took them back off so they wouldn't see me wearing them... .that's friggen pathetic... .

If I were to call her up, to perhaps talk it out, the urge... .I would only be "broadsided"... .she would most likely "let me have it"... .so no, .

Anyways... .we are all walking this same path here aren't we... .and its pretty "fog-gy" tonight... .for me anyways... .

I actually miss her, .as my mind has conveniently scrubbed away all the bad $hit show stuff she has pulled over the years... .to include her latest row with my Son... .that by itself is wholly inexcusable... .so why do I continue to "waiver" over this... .

Did I really kick her out, did I not give her an option as who would be leaving... .didn't I ?... .am I just a cold hearted, heartless basterd who told a woman with sta-ge iv can-cer to gtfo out of "my" house, that's been her home too since 2011 !... .did I end this, or did she, or did we do it together... .who's the one with the anger problem now... ."but I had to protect my Son"... .she crossed that boundary.

Lord Jesus... .please help us, please help me... .please help her ; (

Hang in there AL... .and you too "Charlie"... .I read your thread too... .and I'm sure sorry... .this is all tough stuff.

I need to try to sleep... .

Red5

 

[Cromwell]

if you do get in any sort of contact again Al, chances are the initial buzz from having moved from cravings to having fizzles out, and its back to a resumption of having to take the good and the bad whichever form they play out. After that summer and I ghosted her, I saw her again by chance and within two weeks of limited contact, i realised that this was more a battle within and to do with how another could control my emotional state, for good or bad.

It was difficult to finally do the same and go NC but it was about saying no to an alluring addiction and the confidence that comes along with having the strength/finding it. Long term, I needed to recover as much as say, a soccer player who breaks a leg, doesnt enjoy having to recover but needs to. In their case, the choice is made for them, ours is a more trickier one and requires more self motivation to work at it.

going back is like taking the short cut, it bypasses dealing with the core issues, but it is just a sticky plaster/band aid quick fix problem.

we can get used to enjoying the punishment/bad side of the cycle as much as the other, just how some recreational drug users can eventually anticipate a comedown, get conditioned to it, in some cases some even find the comedown enjoyable.

It doesnt have to be an uphill struggle to change the root cause of wanting back as a go-to salve for emotional pain (going back to the source of it), as much as any latent part of enjoying that part of the cycle, because it is seen as preferable to loneliness. There is hundreds of options to tackle loneliness as much as depression, anxiety or other things that dont have to involve the narrow scope of going back.

in the last contact her tone of texts were slightly different, how highly she thought of me, praise... .it could have been easy to just bathe in all the cajoling and forget about what she did - but id worked too hard on here, id started to get back on track with my health, a new career, a circle of new friends, a glimpse of self esteem returning and there was that path to take.

when you work hard to get back on track, it becomes harder to gamble it all away again, I think I could have just had her back sitting on my couch watching tv and smoking weed all day and enjoy the company - until the inveitable "drama manufacturing", or I could see that I wanted more out of life. That id been hurt enough and didnt want to invite any addition to it.

but it truly is a weighing up, risk management stuff going on to do Al.

[Al Kaseltzer]

yeah i agree that after putting in all the effort and work to heal, that it will be harder to gamble it all away again.  that plays a role into if i'd go back, i know i would right now but where i am a month or two from now will hopefully be different and therefore maybe my decision would be different.  i also keep getting mad with myself for contemplating all these "what if" scenarios that probably wont even happen, like what an unproductive way to go about a day.

i think to an extent you are already right about the initial buzz fizzling out shortly after re-connecting.  i kind of felt like that happened the last time around.  the first few days were great and i was high as a kite but things sort of leveled out back to the norm after a week or so.  not that i wanted out, or that i wasn't crushed when she left again but i can see what you're saying.  maybe it would be even more so now with more time for reflection and potentially some more layers peeled back.

i dont know if id say i liked or enjoyed the punishment/bad side of the cycle but i did stay just as fixated and invested during those times, and i did seem to re-wire my brain to really just focus on this one person, good and bad, day in and day out pretty much from the beginning.  that is where it became this warped reality that really nothing that happened was too much to stop me from wanting it, despite what this may have been doing to my own mental health and well being. 

[Cromwell]

yeah i agree that after putting in all the effort and work to heal, that it will be harder to gamble it all away again.  that plays a role into if i'd go back, i know i would right now but where i am a month or two from now will hopefully be different and therefore maybe my decision would be different.  i also keep getting mad with myself for contemplating all these "what if" scenarios that probably wont even happen, like what an unproductive way to go about a day.

i think to an extent you are already right about the initial buzz fizzling out shortly after re-connecting.  i kind of felt like that happened the last time around.  the first few days were great and i was high as a kite but things sort of leveled out back to the norm after a week or so.  not that i wanted out, or that i wasn't crushed when she left again but i can see what you're saying.  maybe it would be even more so now with more time for reflection and potentially some more layers peeled back.

i dont know if id say i liked or enjoyed the punishment/bad side of the cycle but i did stay just as fixated and invested during those times, and i did seem to re-wire my brain to really just focus on this one person, good and bad, day in and day out pretty much from the beginning.  that is where it became this warped reality that really nothing that happened was too much to stop me from wanting it, despite what this may have been doing to my own mental health and well being. 

Al, there is nothing mental health related about, having strong feelings for another

you liked her, you wanted her

but did you really true - know - her?

Al, you talk about not being a magic pill out there. Its true, anti depressants are not a panacea but, if depression is the source of the bulk of these ruminations and upset obssessive though patterns, its worth trying. Tackling the blues got me out of this faster than anything else. This doesnt have to be an uphill struggle, you should have energy to go the gym and enjoy life, be productive. Is this what you wanted out of love? What you would go back to for a temporary dopamine lift?

you are right, these r/s do have some common denominator; they are a complete mind f

the trump card I play on this board each time is, health comes before a relationship, not the other way around. Tackle the blues first is my advice, it is havoc for maintaining clarity of thought and skews our perceptions. It can get worse. Theres people too depressed to move out a chair even if they can theorise that going to the Dr is a good idea, the energy and the spirit, its been drained.

There is no good or bad times if we trudge zombie like through a r/s depressed, it is apathy. You are worth far more in this life than to sit by on the sidelines waiting, to be thrown a scrap of 'happiness' enough not to starve but never enough to feel fulfilled. I think whatever happened in the past if we talk about doing wrong or making mistakes - what about today and what about the fact there is someone out there who wants to be with you, right now - but you are depriving them of the chance by waiting around in limbo land instead. I started to think of myself as a version of Tom Hanks in the Terminal. Shes got you where she wanted you buddy, trapped and controlled, disorientated. An otherwise strong, smart guy, who can rationalise the predicament but cant muster the traction to go to the gym.

none of this needs to be an uphill struggle, and it doesnt have to take a year.

have a little rest its been a lot, the cardinal rule is to stop when you start feeling sorry for yourself.

hopefully she doesnt come back before you get to anger, the fuel source for getting to the gym, and protract your recovery. If she does, its no big deal, can always go back to this loop and start again, this site has been here since 1998.

 i also keep getting mad with myself for contemplating all these "what if" scenarios that probably wont even happen,

its there waiting to be tapped into, to help, not hinder. Use it the right way to get out this rut, once you have you dont need it anymore, can discard it - conjoined to her.

Ignore it and it works surreptitiously against you. Just curious if she ever made you angry during the r/s, go have a read some of their forums if you can be bothered, it is like troll central kingdom.

[crushedagain]

The realization I have come to, which has taken over a year, is that there's pretty much no going back ever. In fact, I could never let myself get emotionally involved with her again. The absolute furthest it would ever go would be an FWB, wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am sort of get together. She essentially moved herself into the "not high quality enough for a monogamous relationship" camp.

When I consider those facts, it would make no sense to even "hit it and quit it" as they say, because I can find that anywhere. I don't have a problem attracting women, my problem was getting serious with someone who has no capacity to sustain a loving relationship with any one man, because it will ultimately crash and burn, and she'll just run away like she always does, into the arms of somebody else she's keeping under lock and key in her little secret computer rolodex.

The reality is that my relationship was doomed from the start. I ignored or missed the red flags in the beginning. Boundaries don't work, she'll just bail or throw hissy fits. There's no winning.

[Al Kaseltzer]

Cromwell - all good points and i appreciate the support.  and yes, i did kind of realize after i posted it that there actually is a pill that helps with that stuff haha.  i have always been hesitant to go on something for fear of not getting off of it, but if i don't see natural improvements in a timely manner then it is something to consider for sure.

these relationships are complete mind F's, red flags throughout.  the way it ended was just the icing on the cake, completely fried my brain.

There is no good or bad times if we trudge zombie like through a r/s depressed, it is apathy. You are worth far more in this life than to sit by on the sidelines waiting, to be thrown a scrap of 'happiness' enough not to starve but never enough to feel fulfilled. I think whatever happened in the past if we talk about doing wrong or making mistakes - what about today and what about the fact there is someone out there who wants to be with you, right now - but you are depriving them of the chance by waiting around in limbo land instead. I started to think of myself as a version of Tom Hanks in the Terminal. Shes got you where she wanted you buddy, trapped and controlled, disorientated. An otherwise strong, smart guy, who can rationalise the predicament but cant muster the traction to go to the gym.

one of the things i keep telling myself is why do you desperately want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you.  its really that simple.  someone out there wants to be with us, speaking about anyone else here.  to ruminate and obsess over someone who cant even really be bothered to show us respect is the ultimate lack of self respect. 

Crushed- its true, part of this for me is accepting what happened and getting out of denial.  its not about traits of anything, its just objectively looking at the facts of what happened throughout.  to expect it to manifest into something it never really became is just foolish.

all that said, understanding and being aware, still am not detached or cleansed.

[crushedagain]

one of the things i keep telling myself is why do you desperately want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you.  its really that simple.  someone out there wants to be with us, speaking about anyone else here.  to ruminate and obsess over someone who cant even really be bothered to show us respect is the ultimate lack of self respect. 

Crushed- its true, part of this for me is accepting what happened and getting out of denial.  its not about traits of anything, its just objectively looking at the facts of what happened throughout.  to expect it to manifest into something it never really became is just foolish.

all that said, understanding and being aware, still am not detached or cleansed.

It's early for you. After a month I was still a basket case. Though I knew she was not good for me and that it could never work (I gave her a second chance after she disappeared the first time and she basically did the same thing again) I remember struggling to think of a way, anything, where I could somehow get her back, reverse what had just happened.

But I just couldn't even think of a way that would work. She left me. Was asking or begging her to come back going to work? No, because that would be very unattractive and lower my value to her, or any woman. It's simply not something I would ever do. I have too much self respect to do that.

Could I send an email outlining everything she did wrong to try to get her to see the light and change her mind? No, that would just alienate her even further.

Could I send an email praising her, telling her how much I love her, etc.? After what she did? No way. Yuck.

Then I had to have an honest conversation with myself about what she was probably doing, and realized she was likely on dating apps and seeing other guys immediately. Was this an acceptable behavior to me? No.

So, I was left in a "hopeless" situation. I realized I had no choice but to bite the bullet and face the music. As much as I never wanted it to happen, it was OVER. Still, my mind played tricks on me, imagining scenarios where she popped up in my email, wanting another chance, etc. The reality is that I never heard from her again save for one email that had no writing at all, only a link to something. Pffft.

[once removed]

one of the things i keep telling myself is why do you desperately want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you.  its really that simple.
... .
to ruminate and obsess over someone who cant even really be bothered to show us respect is the ultimate lack of self respect.  

why judge your grieving process, man?

it makes us human and vulnerable. when you do that, youre only saying "theres something wrong with me for grieving or missing this person that i cared for". how does that help?

you didnt want it to end. the person on the receiving end never does. its okay to mourn that loss. its strong and self aware.

im not suggesting you actively fight the detaching process or something, or go around mindfully pining for her. i am saying when i let go of the idea that i was or wasnt supposed to feel a certain way, things got a lot easier for me. feel your feelings, the good and the bad.

[Al Kaseltzer]

You are right. I don't know, I guess I'm just trying to convince myself I'm better off without her, as if it will somehow help. Whether that is actually true or not, I know I miss her, want her and can't stop thinking about all of it.

[once removed]

maybe youre better off without her. maybe not. i would focus on reasons that you might be, it can help. "better off without her" is also a state of being. build that life.

what is true, is that there will be others. you will love again. the two of you had a time and a purpose together, and you will come to appreciate that, in time, for what it was. but you have a bright future ahead of you. she is not the keeper of your happiness.