Questioning core values

[PianoDood]

Has anyone else been exposed so long that they began to question their own core values and sense of right or wrong?

[once removed]

what happened, PD? did you have the phone call?

[CryWolf]

I questioned right and wrong for a while. I wondered if I was the one with BpD. I asked myself that this morning too.

I believe it’s normal to question and wonder. It’s human nature to wonder if you were a problem or played any role .

How things been?

[Cromwell]

Has anyone else been exposed so long that they began to question their own core values and sense of right or wrong?

I think there is a theory out there that goes along the lines of a way to cope with trauma is to re-enact it in an attempt to normalise it.

Isnt there an old saying? "if you cant beat them - join them"

or birds of a feather, flock together.

I really was starting to behave very much out of character, I did things like retaliation cheat on her, something ive never done, or felt any value in doing. rather than deal with the behaviour that I felt I couldnt change, just went down to the same level and normalised it.

except in my case at least, it didnt really work I guess the fact we are not together anymore partly proves i couldnt adapt to the same baseline.

great topid PianoDood, hope your doing okay.

[Mustbeabetterway]

Hi PianoDood,

Yes, I am not sure about you, but I spent so much time trying to figure out what he wanted and needed to be happy that I forgot what It was that made me me.  I think I was dependent on his happiness for my own. 

To recover from this, I have had to break it down to my core values.  What did I value?  What are my priorities?  What is negotiable and nonnegotiable?  It’s taken a lot of study and thought, but it’s been worth it. 

Maybe you could tell us a little more about your struggle with
Core values.  That way we could give you the support you need.

Blessings and peace,

Mustbe

[Ozzie101]

I'm in that space now: struggling to maintain what makes me "me" and holding onto my values.

My uBPDh has a bad temper. The slightest thing can set him off. And the things he stresses a lot are that he wants to "win" and that if he's hurt by something, then the person who hurt him (whether intentional or not) should hurt too. I just can't agree with that. I'm a much more forgiving person. And when dealing with a problem, I feel like being firm, but polite and establishing a dialogue are the ways to go to reach an effective conclusion. He thinks I should lash out and really make them "feel it." I think that way of handling things just creates more hurt and more problems.

My family is a HUGE trigger. He told me last night that it's ok for people to cuss out their parents or just cut them off and not talk to them for 6 months or a year. He's done it before. Well, I'm not doing that.

At the same time, I know that many of his complaints have some merit. I have made mistakes and have a part to play in our problems. In the midst of one of his dysregulations, though, it's very difficult for me to remember the fact that it's not ALL my fault and that he's seeing things in a very, very twisted way.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey PD, It's easy to forget one's core values in the midst of all the BPD turmoil and drama.  As Mustbe describes, I forgot who I was for a while there, which was not fun.  Now I like to look at my life as a journey towards authenticity, getting back to who I am at my core.  As Nietzsche put it, "Become who you are!"

Where are you in terms of reconnecting with your deepest self?  Fill us in, when you can.

LuckyJim

[Cromwell]

I think there is a lot in life that challenges our sense of self besides a relationship with BPD but it didnt help that a key feature was having to feel like not fully being able to express myself for fear of the results. When I started on this road and it becomes habitual or conditioned, it starts to skew a bit who I was because I had to repress my inner thoughts and feelings to such an extreme.

The way I built this back is a period of time where I reconnected with hobbies and started an express-athon of speaking out whatever was on my mind. It really helped albeit, I have at times done it more than socially acceptable norms, (if I didnt like someones behaviour I didnt ever hold back expressing contempt) but it was important to rebuild the sense of self and ive found a healthy balance back.

[PianoDood]

Mustbe,
My core values?  Marriage, promises, your word... .they all matter and should never be taken lightly,  especially when it affects others.  I believe I  service to others.  I believe God has a purpose for this,  even in the midst of confusion.  You stand for what is right.   You don't quit.   You don't insanely live your life on a carousel, casually spinning around in circles as your life disintegrates around you.   You do something different to change the paradigm.   It's not that flipping hard if you genuinely love someone.   Unless you're personally disordered, apparently.

[Mutt]

And, one of the most important things I've rebuilt is my sense of self. I have a long way to go in that regard because God knows, being in a BPD relationship will destroy that.

This is really important - your sense of self you lose your sense of self in a r/s with a pwBPD everything becomes about them. A lot of us on these boards did not take care of themselves before they got here they would bend their backs constantly for their pwBPD.  

Okay, then why haven't you file for divorce if you know that I take my vows seriously and will not file myself?

Are you thinking about your wedding vows when you're saying that you're questioning your values? Can you explain what you mean?

[PianoDood]

Mutt,
I guess I should first explain that the questioning of my core values is only temporary. I have always had a very strong sense of self throughout my lifetime. So whether that is fortunate for me I don't know, but even through everything she's put me through, I still found a way to remind myself that my core values are who I am and to remind myself why I believe in them. No I'm not questioning my wedding vows. The reason I've stayed in this relationship this long is because I married this woman because I loved her I'm a man of integrity who stands by his promises. The core values on talking about our sense of right and wrong based upon the principles. It seems she lives her life by emotion, choosing emotionally based upon where she is at the moment without ever thinking through the consequences for herself, anyone else or the long-term ramifications of those choices for a marriage... I don't question my core values in terms of my stance on my marriage vows. I questioned hers. When she spoke those words to me that day, she basically lied to me. And the whole crazy making aspect of never knowing what's going on, constantly being confused, constantly being gaslighted and walking on eggshells... .all that crazy making will make even the best man who has guided his life, had a good life, has borne wonderful fruit from the blessings that he has been given and multiplied them... .Only to have it destroyed by someone who only thinks of herself. It's the sense of right versus wrong, the blame game, the crazy making communication, the deceit, lying about things that are so miniscule and so stupid to even lie about or deceive about... .I swear, it's like dealing with an emotional toddler who runs and hides under the bed because they've done something wrong and doesn't come out until Mommy and Daddy says it's okay and they won't be punished.

[PianoDood]

When she discarded this time, I let her know that I will be standing my my integrity and my vows and I will not file. I told her that I will not stop her from filing but she will have to choose to go and admit she didn't mean her vows and file herself. If, after I'm stable and things have come to a point where I have extra money to file and she hasn't done it? I will file. I'm absolutely done this time. I'm saving my life. That may sound over-dramatic but it's true... .I know those who have gone through it understand what I'm talking about. I'm saving my very life.

[once removed]

PianoDood,

this thread is about your core values. your integrity.

this has been a hard and devastating breakup, one that you sound determined to see through this time, but in doing so, you are metaphorically setting fire to things (im going by your other thread about sending the pictures to her family).

i would really encourage you, going forward, to rise above, and to be true to those core values.

if you are really done, now is not the time to teach her lessons - its the time to apply them yourself. because as great as the hurt is now, and as great as the hurt has been, and as great as the hurt will be, you can heal from this. its a lot easier to do without regrets. when we can look back and say we faced our greatest challenge with the best of ourselves.

if youre committed to leaving (you are the one who initiated the breakup, right?), dont rely on her to file, dont rely on her to see the light and change. it will just be rehashing the old battles of the relationship, and you just might end up back in the same place with more damage.

[PianoDood]

And she has chosen her role as the black sheep in her dysfunctional family over her marriage and a man who genuinely loves her. Godspeed to her. I'm done

[Luan]

PianoDood,

I am full of admiration for anyone who has stayed long term or married their partner, and continues to show love in the face of BPD. I was questioning my core values after 4 months, so I can only imagine what years would do. Whatever your future relationship, you should be proud of your reliable and caring self. They alone are core values 

My exBPD person was casually racist once during our relationship, I won't bother with the story. But I did ask her if she thought what she said might be a little racist? Hmm, didn't go well. Of course, the night before the wheels began to fall off the relationship she brought it up again. I was more sympathetic, and tried to semi-agree I understood what she was trying to say.

After we broke up I cursed myself for invalidating her, but finally now, I see I could have lost my core values very easily if this relationship were to continue. In the end, the issue was minor, a well adjusted person would have not made the remark, or would have listened to the mild critique and seen a different point of view.

I don't think she was meaning to be racist, but I have read that some BPD people have trouble accepting other cultures etc She is a very kind person in many ways, but once invalidated, never let this moment go. I am sure I would have ended up going bonkers trying to validate while not agreeing with this type of nonsense.

[Mutt]

Hi Pianodood,

I think that what you and once removed are talking about is anger. It’s natural to feel anger in grieving just as long as you don’t let it affect you in the long run. It doesn’t mean that a pwBPD don’t have core values, what I mean is the disorder or lack of impulse control doesn’t define the person - they are both.

I completely agree with once removed take the high road. Is there some way that you can think of to invest that be energy in? When I feel angry, down, anxious I go to the gym and pour my thoughts and feelings into lifting weights. What I like about the gym is that there are no bad sessions and you always leave benefiting yourself.

[PianoDood]

Once removed,
I have absolutely no plans to communicate further,  teach her any lessons,  et al.  I merely did what I felt I needed to do to take back my sense of self and send her the message the I reject her blame and projection.   The 8 months between when she discarded last January and when she recycled in September taught me much.   And I regained enough sense of myself in that 8 months that I was able to see things more clearly and feel confident enough in myself and my intuition and reasoning (and sanity) to know the "line in the sand"  I would not cross.   I tried to be a caretaker for her this time.   But,  what I found was this... .in her untreated state,  all being a caretaker did was open the door for more abuse.
And you can't get anymore BPD than this.   After rubbing her back,  comforting her,  being all she needed,  out of love for her in the ER these night (mind you,  I had literally just discovered that she was lying to me and acting out through her gambling addiction while I was sacrificing to help her get from payday to payday financially as the EMTs were loading her in the ambulance)... .the next day,  she told me,  "Your love for me is so genuine and beautiful.  Thank you,  honey."  Less than 10 days later,  she discarded me (no, I did NOT initiate the break up this time... .I merely resolved ahead of time that if she did it again,  repeated the same cycle and pattern,  I would. Be done).  The texting of the pictures to her family members was,  I will admit, my way of at least putting her into the position of exposure.   The bottom line is that the longer she hides, avoids and lies to those around her to protect her fragile sense of self,  the long as she will go without ever hitting bottom, getting treatment and stopping the abuse she perpetrates on those around her. It's destructive to everyone. My only intention was to expose her lies to her family. Nothing more. I am not doing anything else, not communicating with her, nothing. I feel no regret at all for sending the pictures. 

As for filing for divorce,  I'll repeat what I said earlier.   I have more pressing financial matters to attend to than to spend money filling.   As I said before,  if she has not filed by the time i am financially able to do so,  I'll file.  I'm done.

PD

[PianoDood]

Luan,
No matter the time in the relationship, it's still excruciating. Whether it's six months or six years. But, for me, this time, the healing is progressing much faster because I fought to retain my sense of self I had regained after the prior discard for 8 months and would not let it be destroyed fully. My breaking point was when I realized she had not changed, she was abusing me as much or more than what she was abusing me and our marriage before... .And I began to feel the effects in regard to my sense of self. That's when I put up the stop sign and said enough. I love my wife. I cannot deny that. There are things about her that I cherish and did not want to live my life without... .However, that 20 or 25% of the relationship that was wonderful is not worth the destruction of the other 75%... .And the main reason it's not worth it is that she is not engaged at all in her own healing, nor is she able to have a healthy, happy, interdependent adult relationship with her own husband. For all intents and purposes, she operates in her life as an emotional toddler. And intentional or not, it does not change the devastating effect on me mentally, emotionally, financially and physically. I had gotten off of my blood pressure medication during the eight months we were apart. I stopped taking it because my blood pressure normalized during that period. As soon as our relationship started back up in September, my blood pressure went back through the roof. It's time to go.

[PianoDood]

Mutt,
As I wrote to once-removed, I have no intention of doing anything else out of anger or being vindictive with her. Some might think my sending the pictures was vindictive, but I see it as simply telling the truth to her family and letting her deal with her consequences of that. Once I did that, I went no contact immediately. I have been redirecting my energy into rebuilding and healing myself. I've been getting exercise, working hard, allowing myself to feel my feelings so that I'm not ignoring or repressing them... .I have to do that to heal, but I do not dwell on rumination, I've reached the point where I'm sick of it. Flat-out sick of it because I don't deserve it whether she does it intentionally or not. Her behavior is destructive to everyone around her and the only choice I've got is the take myself off the firing range.

[PianoDood]

The other thing I discovered as the three-month attempt at reconciliation from grass was this... .When she recycled in September, she put forth the one out position of saying she had gone to therapy and she had herself together now and she was confident and calm and Serene and immediately started to put up roadblocks between us saying that we needed to go to counseling before we progressed too fast. I agreed with her on the counseling part, but as I discovered later, she has never been in therapy. What she told me at the time of recycle was all nonsense and lies. When I openly started to talk to her about going to couples counseling after she said it was a requirement for us to move forward... .Suddenly she changes her mind and doesn't want to go to counseling. So basically, she painted a picture of herself to entice me back only to find out that all of it was Ally. She has not done anything to heal herself... .What she sees as progress for herself is merely repression of her own emotions and that is starting to manifest and other dysfunction and her POV ER because she has not sought the proper help. She's fooling herself. But she's not fooling me. I love her, she is a good woman in a lot of respects, but I cannot expose myself to her toxin anymore.

[Mutt]

Her behavior is destructive to everyone around her and the only choice I've got is the take myself off the firing range

That’s a good idea. It sounds like you’re doing the right thing. Keep focusing on yourself and stay off of the radar with your ex.

I wanted to get at back my ex for the fallout of the marriage getting back at her for me means going inward and self reflect, heal, and come out of it stronger she let herself go while I’m in the best shape of my slide and she’s jealous of my gf etc.

All of that is done by us and the other person has no control over that. I wanted to be stronger for the kids so that I can manage being a single dad and traverse through whatever drama uBPDex throws my way post break up.

Good to hear that you’re exercising and working hard  

[once removed]

I merely did what I felt I needed to do to take back my sense of self and send her the message the I reject her blame and projection.  

I see it as simply telling the truth to her family and letting her deal with her consequences of that

whats done is done, PianoDood. we dont get do overs, but we can learn from the past.

so i say this not to monday morning quarterback so much as to offer some perspective, and things you can apply in the future. take it or leave it, or perhaps, set it aside for now.

when we do these things, we have our justifications. you have yours. when someone with BPD traits does it though, we call it a smear campaign. sometimes we have more in common perspective wise than we think, and especially in high conflict, when it comes to how one partner sees the other, and their actions.

you have mentioned that during the last time the two of you recycled the relationship, that you felt hidden from her family, that she was keeping the relationship a secret, and this frustrated and hurt you; i can see why. it doesnt seem like a good faith effort to improve the relationship.

the two of you have broken up and gotten back together many times, and it has been a volatile relationship. in these situations, families tend to take sides... .the side of their family. i remember that my dad confessed to me that he prayed that my ex and i would break up. that was really out of character for him. generally, he would pray for something like Gods will, or what is best for my ex and i, not a specific outcome like that. it was out of character for him to tell me he did this, as well. it was clearly something he felt very strongly about. i did an incredibly stupid thing and i told my ex about it, to try and get across the urgency of how unhealthy our relationship had become. you can imagine how that went over.

others here have felt that pressure over returning to the relationship too. ive seen members come on Detaching, bash their ex, and then go back to the relationship. sometimes they feel too ashamed to get support on Bettering afterward. ive seen members recycle the relationship, move to Bettering, and had other members plead with them to reconsider. youve probably read members on this board describe how their family and friends have begged them to do the same.

given the history of your relationship, it is likely her family had strong feelings. some of that is probably due to what your ex might have said to them, and some of it is human/family nature. based on that history, it is also likely that your ex felt conflicted about reentering the relationship, or at least very unsure about how it would turn out... .it takes a huge amount of vulnerability to completely reinvest in a relationship that has broken up multiple times; in some cases it can even be foolish to do so. i suspect she wasnt so much hiding you as she was guarded, conflicted, and feeling a lot of pressure. she had pressure from you to do otherwise, too.

anyway, whats done is done. think about it. maybe set it aside for later in your recovery. maybe consider it as it applies to the divorce process and where you want to go from here. over the years, ive learned that good boundaries and a peaceful life are more about holding myself accountable than holding others accountable. by holding myself accountable to my core values, i achieve both.