The Three C’s

[Red5]

The Three C’s:

*I didn’t cause it.

*I can’t cure it.

*I can’t control it.

... .so "steady as she goes"

Red5

[Skip]

Should we buy into this old saying?

The 3 C started as a means for an alcoholic to understand that they "have a disease" vs "they are bad" and that they are helpless to make it go away.  

In AA it is a statement of  "selfawareness" and of "face the challenge" and of "don't fool yourself into thinking you can drink a little".

Then for BPD it got flipped into a "its about you", "you're the problem", "nothing can be done for you" and "I shouldn't waste my time on you".

... .our exs where tough, but the reason we are here is not all about them.

[Red5]

Should we buy this old saying?

Afternoon Skip!

For me, this old saying fits in the context of... .perhaps trying to keep my head above water, this is the flow, the relationship is foundering, I am scared of losing her (C#1), "I don't cause it", may help me to understand that I cannot change her, as I did not break her.

(C#2), as despondency grows, as in, she is slipping away, no mater how hard I try to fight it (save her), I come to the realization of "I can't cure it"... .her disorder that is destroying our relationship(?).

... .next,

(C#3), .the final realization (smell the coffee)... .she is going to leave, or she did this or that (deal breaker)... .so I have to "save myself", or else be dragged down with her... ."I can't control it".

"T" keeps telling me, that a pw/BPD is liken to an addiction, .she refuses to see the elephant in the room, so no therapy is even possible, .and me'... .I am also addicted to her, the intermittent positive reward... .like a "drug".

"nothing can be done" and "I shouldn't waste my time on you".

"T" says... .you can't force help on the person who needs help (our opinion, of the facts)... .the only way they get to help, is to want to get there... .they have to "want to"... .no way round that.

Thoughts comments, and advice always absolutely welcome, .

Thanks Skip !

Red5

[Skip]

Let's take an average women. Let's say she has stage 4 cancer. If emotionally shut out for over a year and then kicked out of the house... . she would most likely be gone.  

Would you say and find relief in the words, didn't cause it, can't cure it,
can't control it?

The words fit. Are they helpful?

Your wife has both BPD traits and stage 4 cancer.

You therapist is right in what he says about people taking action to deal with their issues. That can be extended to all members of the family. It can be extended to working on the marriage. It may be very true that the two of you are not compatible at this stage in life and that she has some issues.

Do the 3 C's muddy this reality (highlighted).

[Mutt]

Hi Red5,

How do you prevent this from happening again? What if you find yourself in another romantic r/s with a damaged person?

[Red5]

Let's take an average women. Let's say she has stage 4 cancer. If emotionally shut out for over a year and then kicked out of the house... . she would most likely be gone.

I would like to clarify, not that it matters much now,

The day it happened, the morning of the event, she told me she was done, and that she was "outa here", she called her sister, and said the same... .so I took her at her word,

Because I stood up to her, in my sons defense, we had a terrible fight, too many bad things were said, no yelled... .I remember saying to her... .after she said the above, ."that's fine, me and "J" will leave, you can have all of this, this whole place... .me and "J" will leave, .she then said, "no, this is your house, I'll leave"... .then I said this (as I can best remember)... ."ok, either you, or me and "J" leave, we cant live together anymore"... ."you cant be hitting him"... .

Skip, if I could take it all back, I would, .I handled it ALL wrong, from the very beginning, .and you are correct, I can go back to 2016-2017 on the boards, and read what I wrote, .I "left" her emotionally two years ago, I was at my wits end with her, .I had emotionally given up... .and I am very sorry now for the way I reacted... .excuses be damned, I should have learned the tools better, and let go of my own anger towards her... .

You can say it any way you like, but you know what, .you are right, I should have stopped her... .there were chances to do that, .but I blew it ; (

... .pride maybe, .or just plain despondency, .so she's gone now, and I miss her, and I still love her... .and I wish she hadn't left, so I did push her out, and away, even thought she was pummeling me, the whole time... .I should have just taken it, .and kept us together... .there is always another day, the next day, to perhaps STOP the bleeding, and try to start the healing... .

What about my Son, did I do right by him, .Skip!... .help me out here, its been almost two months now, and I'm still reeling, trying to make sense.

What you wrote hurts, but its the truth... .I should have just stopped her... .stopped me.

Let me ask you a question, both you Skip, and Mutt,

You've both seen them come and seen them go, years of experience here, .do you think I can turn this around?

Is it even possible?

I blew it... .

But anything is possible.

Thank you for your time, and your comments, I'd really like to know what your opinion here is, considering all that happened in my story here, over the past months... .since Jan 2017... .how could I turn this all around, is it even possible.

Respectfully, Red5

[Mutt]

Let me ask you a question, both you Skip, and Mutt,

You've both seen them come and seen them go, years of experience here, ... .do you think I can turn this around?

This sounds like a fast and hard rule but there is truth to it nothing changes without change I'm not trying to minimize the horrible things that were done to you or any member, at the end of your healing journey what is your goal? Where do you want to find yourself in x amount of years? If we don't change our habits regardless of the stuff that the other person owns on the side of the fence there's a good chance you're going to find yourself in a similar situation. It's like the saying look at the past to anticipate future patterns.

To answer your question can you turn it around?

How bad do you want it? I'll give you an example. I like weight lifting, I've built my body, I'm natural I don't take human growth hormones or steroids if I want to work on a specific part of my body and make it big - I'll say my biceps for example I have to want that and work hard on it in the gym.

Every rep that I do builds on top of each other until I reach my goal for me that means I go to the gym 6 times a week and each day I get closer to that goal but it takes time.

[Red5]

... .it takes time.

I’m running out of time Mutt, .what have I done, I don’t have years left here.

Her daughter ask me last Thursday on the phone, “what do we need to do to get Mom into therapy”, .

And she also told me, “I know you love her but what she did was wrong”.

I think it can be done, I am praying about it... .

And I know I’ve got a lot of changing to do, that’s why I go sit with Major Tom every week, I’ve lots to unpack.

You are right about “how bad do you want it”... .I wanted to be a Master Sergeant... .and it took twenty two years and a whole lot of hard work, but I did it.

I think right now, I’d better just leave her alone, she is very angry with me right now.

I need to figure this out, but not a lot of time left,

Red5

[empath]

In an abusive environment, it is normal and healthy for people to become emotionally detached for their own safety and well-being. It is actually one of the signs of abuse within a family; some people can function for a long time that way.

Even having the "tools" doesn't always prevent people from acting in ways that are physically unsafe for those around them. We can't control how other people process information and their choices.

Red5, I'm glad that you made the choice to stand up for your son. I know it hurts and is raw -- and maybe confusing. It was hard when my h moved out nearly a year ago -- even when I heard what was going on in his mind, it didn't really make it better because it wasn't logical or what healthy people do. After my h moved out, I talked to one of my psych friends and described what happened; he could follow up to the point that h moved out.

How are your eating and exercise habits lately?

[Cat Familiar]

Red, it wasn't just you who was suffering from her disagreeable behavior. Even before she hit him in the head, twice, she was regularly being very unkind to your son, a developmentally disabled adult, who couldn't protect himself from her abuse. 

You tried to intervene and shield him all along, and she turned her frustration with him and her rage upon you for interfering with what she considered her "parenting" of him.

Of course you love her and of course you want to protect her--that's how you're wired. And you also want to make your son's life as easy and comfortable as possible.

Unfortunately she did not have the patience or maturity to deal with an adult who has the mental functioning of a young child. This seemed to be the origin of most of your disagreements with her. She didn't understand that he was not capable of following her ironclad rules and it vexed her to no end when he didn't comply with her demands.

The whole situation was fraught. Certainly your emotional withdrawal from the relationship played a part, as did her difficulty managing her anger and her unreasonable expectations. Really, the only blameless party is your son.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Red5, Don't beat yourself up!  We all could probably have handled things better with our pwBPD.  No, you didn't "blow" it; you did the best you could with the tools you had at hand under extremely stressful circumstances.  I admire your courage for standing up for your son after she crossed the line.  Abuse is unacceptable.  I suggest you pause and let the water clear.  Usually the right path will appear, if you remain patient.

LuckyJim

[Skip]

Red, can I ask how she is doing? What is her prognosis. Is she undergoing treatment? How is that working? How is she handling it?

[Red5]

Evening Skip,

Red, can I ask how she is doing?

As far as I know, she is sustaining, it’s been a while since I was privy to any doctors reports, her D33 said she is “stable” right now, no new spots, but not in remission.

What is her prognosis.

She is stage iv, she was dx the summer of 16, dx with rcc, right K (tumor), which was removed, but it had metastasized.

Is she undergoing treatment?

Yes, immunotherapy started in Jan 17, in patient, she did not respond, it was a trail, since there have been three other regimes... .all trails, and all medications save one out patient infusion type.

How is that working?

Not much response to any treatmentents but she is “sustained”; some of the treatments make her very ill, very uncomfortable... .one wrecked her gallbladder, and it had to be removed.

How is she handling it?

Skip, she is very worried, scared, as we all are, .this is no joke, this is serious... .and of course she “dysregulates” to the extreme, some pretty bad episodes, .any, ANY break in the routine... .any stress... .she comes unglued... .my posts reflect the daily grind of this over the last two years.

I’ve failed her Skip, .and for this, I feel immense guilt, I may talk a brave line, but inside I’m crushed... .absolutely crushed.

I am praying for a miracle Skip.

But it may be too late,

Red5

[Red5]

Empath, Cat, LJ, and Mutt, thanks for listening... .

Something tripped in my soul over the last week or so.

Look, I married her, in the Church, she wore a beautiful white gown... .I wore my blues, family traveled from as far away as the west coast, .we thought we would be alright, .I missed red flags, I didn’t understand what I was going to be dealing with, .had I’d known?

“In sickness and in health, for better or for worse”... .

I love her, I love my son, .all of our children... .

I’m all torn up inside here, .I’m a brave fool maybe, .we both profess Christianity... .been talking to the Good Lord about this, I’ve tried to put my foolish pride, aside... .

I don’t think, she has but a few more years... .I don’t want her to be alone, .there’s got to be a way... .

Thanks for listening,

Red5

[Mutt]

Red5,

That’s what we’re here for you help me, I help you we’re all in this together.

I’m sorry that she’s going through this. BPD is not your fault it’s an attachment disorder that is triggered when a pwBPD is intimate.

The dysregulations would happen with any number of people with varied results it could be more it could be less depending on the person.

I agree with the others you’re being too hard on yourself. I understand the wedding vows I think that the church may recognize this if the other person is not in the marriage or wanting to be in it it’s ok to divorce. I could be wrong.

I struggled with the wedding vows as well after the split I found it hard to not be in that role of husband. A friend of mine’s SO had something that happened to his back and couldn’t work and he felt really bad about it - she said that he had let go of his ego, you have to let go of your ego Mutt. I agree with her.

If the other person is not emotionally checked in if they’ve checked out and are not interested in their half of the marriage - there’s nothing that you can do to stop tha at. Don’t take the lions share of the blame.

You had a tough week do you think what your feeling now is a part of that? Feelings can feel really bad but they do pass.

[Skip]

It's going on week 9 and I imagine this is starting to feel less and less like a long fight and more like the end of a relationship, Red. I imagine that has a lot to do with you feelings.

I think, in looking back, you are realizing more and more that this isn't the story of black and white or good and bad... .it's a more complex story of two people not taking the slow demise of the relationship to seriously. Painting her black might work for a few weeks, but that emotional cover fades away.

It might also be that you are realizing that she has been under incredible stress, that people with BPD don't function well when stressed.

It's also a significant change to have someone who has been in your life on a daily basis for over a decade no longer there. You are facing an unknown future.

There are a lot of factors at play here that make you (anyone) feel loss, be second guessing, feeling some fear. This is very natural Red. This is the pain we all go through.

It doesn't mean that you two are a compatible couple or should try to reconnect. At 9 weeks, it doesn't necessarily mean its not recoverable. The last two years have surely taken a significant toll on the relationship, so rekindling would not be simple.

This is just a very uncertain time.

Maybe the best thing, Red, is to try to get to the most mentally balanced place.

[empath]

I don’t want her to be alone,... .there’s got to be a way ... .

When we are caretakers, we want so much to help our loved ones. I remember a situation a few years back in which my h needed to go to the hospital for a test; it was frightening because we didn't know what the outcome would be. As we were discussing it, he told me that I should go and visit my mom out of state for an indefinite period of time while he stayed home and had the test done. I didn't want him to be alone for that; at the same time, he didn't want me there. I went to my mom's and told her what was going on - because she could tell something was off when I wasn't going back for h's test. I had to respect what he wanted.

What does your wife want right now?

Part of the grieving process is being able to see the full picture, both the good and the bad together.

[Skip]

Part of the grieving process is being able to see the full picture, both the good and the bad together.

empath is right on target here, Red.

I left a relationship several years ago because, to use a baseball jargon, it was only a double - not a home run.  A double is a fine relationship, but its not a lifetime relationship.

Of course, after you leave that, you realize that for you to have a home run relationship, you also have to function at the high level. You have to seriously step up your game.

Part of the grieving [healing and recovery] process is being able to see the full picture, both the good and the bad together.

[Red5]

Thank you all for your support, insight, and thoughtful responses.

I’ve lots to think on tonight, it’s after midnight here, and I’ve a lot to do at work the rest of the week, .so got to keep my mind in the game, .the whole game here.

Empath asked, “what does your wife want right now?”... .

We’ve spoken via txt, and one actual phone call over the time she moved out, December 1st.

Each time I was the one who reached out, .she’s gone back and forth from I love and miss you too... .but we can’t live together, .to I can’t even say I love you anymore right now... .the last txt was a laundry list of sorts she said she wanted me to do, or I shouldn’t waste my time talking to her... .

Right before she moved out, I said... .“this is madness”; to which she responded... .“this is something I want to do for myslef”... .

She said lots of things, which fade in and out of my memory... .

She is just very angry, very very angry... .I asked T, “so she hates me doesn’t she?... .he responds... .“she hates everything Red”,

Again, thanks, .lots to sleep on tonight,

We may very well be irrecoverable... .incompatible... .if so, I wonder why we didn’t see it before we married... .as we were both previously married for twenty years plus... .each to other people... .“one would think”... .

I am very curious as to what T and uBPDw’s D33 talked about, she told me she was going to call him, but I guess it’s really none of my buisiness,

Valentine’s Day is a few weeks away, .I have given thought to writing her a letter, .

As Mutt said, if she is checked out and not interested in her half... .then there’s nothing I can do, .but the initial txt, she said she “loved me too”... .I wonder what she feels tonight?

I think the best thing to do, right now, .is to give her space, .her D33 says she will most likely want to come back, but she “has to be right”... .“and in control”... .and that she is very “prideful right now”, and as well playing the role of victim to her foo... .I told her D33, “you know her better than anyone in the world, better then me, for sure, you are the keeper of that file/dossier”... .she laughed... .and said to “just give it some time”... .“moms being prideful” she said.

... .”you took good care of her” she said, “and mom knows this”... .(?) hmmm,

All right, I’d better get to bed... .so goodnight, five AM comes early... .talk again tomorrow, thanks again,

Red5

[Skip]

I think the best thing to do, right now,... .is to give her space, ... .her D33 says she will most likely want to come back, but she “has to be right”... .“and in control” ... .and that she is very “prideful right now”, and as well playing the role of victim to her foo... .I told her D33, “you know her better than anyone in the world, better then me, for sure, you are the keeper of that file/dossier”... .she laughed ... .and said to “just give it some time”... .“moms being prideful” she said.

What changes are you willing to make? She probably doesn't want to come back to the same. You don't want the same. A therapist would not suggest going back to the same.

Also, remember your therapist is a reflection of you. A lot of what he says is reflecting back what you are telling him, and also a function of what you are listening for. What are you telling him?

[Lucky Jim]

Maybe the best thing, Red, is to try to get to the most mentally balanced place.

Hey Red, I agree w/Skip, which is why I suggested waiting until the water clears.  You have so much on your plate right now that I doubt you're in a position to do any clear thinking at present.  Suggest you give yourself a break!  Don't be so hard on yourself.  Suggest you treat yourself with care and compassion during these stressful times.  The right path will emerge, I predict, if you remain patient.

LJ

[Mutt]

Hi Red5,

I agree with Skip and Lucky Jim Red, with all of the stress that you’re going through do what you can do to get yourself to feeling better mentally develop little strategies that will help you.

[Red5]

Y’all are right, .I need to take it easy, .so today... .for fun, me and some of my good friends are helping to stuff a “mission kit”’ in the back of a KC-130J... .it was 30’ degrees this morning... .that cold air sure does clear you’re head : )

Thanks, I will come back and write y’all back this afternoon... .

Kind Regards - Red5

[AskingWhy]

Empath, Cat, LJ, and Mutt, thanks for listening... .

Something tripped in my soul over the last week or so.

Look, I married her, in the Church, she wore a beautiful white gown ... .I wore my blues, family traveled from as far away as the west coast,... .we thought we would be alright, ... .I missed red flags, I didn’t understand what I was going to be dealing with, ... .had I’d known?

“In sickness and in health, for better or for worse”... .

I love her, I love my son,... .all of our children... .

I’m all torn up inside here, ... .I’m a brave fool maybe, ... .we both profess Christianity... .been talking to the Good Lord about this, I’ve tried to put my foolish pride, aside... .

I don’t think, she has but a few more years ... .I don’t want her to be alone,... .there’s got to be a way ... .

Thanks for listening,

Red5

Dear Red, late to the party on this one, but this post of yours stood out.

Yes, you married her in church and took vows--and you did your best.  pwNPD or BPD rarely reveal themselves to their partners until there is some sort of "hook," or marriage.  That is why the courtship period for BPDs is called the "honeymoon."  After that, the mask comes off and there is no need for the pwBPD to "act" anymore.

In my own R/S, the "mask" came off within a year.  The rages started and had no idea what to make of them.  Due to my own FOO that had a uBPD parent, I did not know what normal looked like, and I sought to appease my uBPD H.  It was in this year that I first saw just how enmeshed he was to his children, all under the age of 8.  In their presence, H split dramatically, and it was palpable that, to him, I was not even in the same room.  I did not exist to him in the presence of the children.  I should have left then and there, folded my cards and cut my loses.

Foolishly, I stayed, and here I am more than 20 years down the road.  I missed red flags.  Didn't most of us here?

I don't think you married with the notion of "well, let's see how this works" as many couples do.  I think you loved your wife and still do, which is why you are agonising over her physical and mental well-being.

Now that the matter of health is brought to bear, the issues suddenly come much clearer, and you are pondering your role in your W's life.

Whatever you do, know that you did your best.  You are to be commended for that.  A woman who has no empathy for her H's developmentally challenged son--and who hits him to boot--IMO, deserves no sympathy regardless of her mental illness.  To me, the issues with your son are deal breakers.  

 

[formflier]

Hey Red 5,

I just gave this thread a read through and my initial reaction is that you are trying to produce an outcome and are trying to figure out what process to use to obtain that outcome.

There are also some big picture questions which well take time to address.

Perhaps, it's better to shift focus to a list of things you "can" do.  (what's in your control)

Then... .bring that list out a day or two later and focus on what you "should" do.  (taking into account all the lessons you have learned to this point... .and the realities in play)

Then sit with that list for  a few days.

There are some unique factors that have to be acknowledged here.  Both of you guys are under a lot of stress.

Red 5... .you are balancing long term care for your son AND long term care for wife.  You seems to acknowledge both  of these things

Red 5's wife is balancing Cancer and dealing with relationships with a toolbox that doesn't have very many tools in it.  She seems to acknowledge C but generally seems to want to blame the relationship toolboxes of others.

Last thought:  While everyone gets that she would be better off with more "tools" (therapy) you are up against human nature and furthermore up against BPDish influences on human nature.

The more people push for therapy, the more likely she will dig in heels or otherwise justify "not now".

So... to summarize:  Red 5 I would encourage you to look less for an answer and more for a process.  Of course... the big picture questions being asked here influence this because "a process to head towards (blank)" is a question that must be answered.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

This thread is locked due to reaching maximum length, but the story continues here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=333799.0