Lawyer experienced with BPD.

[Ex-Mother-In-Law]

Hi.  My son just lost a parenting plan modification, in which he tried to prevent his ex-wife, with BPD, from moving the kids to another state, making their joint parenting largely unfeasible.  His attorney did not know how to handle his ex’s BPD manipulation skills, so he lost. It looks like this may go back to court, with her using this parental alienation as grounds to reduce his custody.  He is devastated, as he may not be able to continue to adequately protect the kids (12&9).Can anyone recommend an attorney with experience with BPD cases?

[ForeverDad]

Most here are in remote and overall anonymous peer support, so we may not have specific responses.  Likely our suggestions will be to check with sites for recommendations.

For example, avvo.com has often been mentioned as a place to communicate with your local lawyers.  However, be aware that not everyone saying they can deal with high conflict cases actually can.  Also, you may wish to contact William Eddy's HighConflictInstitute.com for a consultation.  I don't know if they have a list of professionals who have attended their seminars in your area.

When you select a family law attorney, understand that most do the 'standard' cases where the spouses may have some conflict during a separation or divorce but it is situational and will fade once some time passes.  Those lawyers and even the courts prefer and expect settlements, in other words, generic form filing and hand holding.  Your family dynamic is highly dysfunctional and needs better than that.  That's why the Splitting handbook by William Eddy & Randi Kreger instructs you to get consultations with multiple lawyers so you can hear their proposed strategies, whether they are proactive and their level of experience, especially at court and trials.  (I recall my first lawyer, she was a former assistant prosecutor, new to family law and she realized she was out of her depth.  She recommended me to my experienced divorce lawyer.)  When interviewing it is perfectly okay to ask, "If you personally were facing a high conflict case like mine, who would you choose?"  Then make sure you check into those names.  Good lawyers know they're not going to get everyone who seeks a consultation as a client, especially if the person needs more experienced representation.

[Ex-Mother-In-Law]

Thank-you very much for this response.  I appreciate your help!

[Panda39]

Foreverdad, brought up the book Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy, get it and read it, it can really help you see things in a new way and help you act in ways that can be helpful vs accidentally sabotaging yourself.  My SO (significant) read it while divorcing his uBPDxw (undiagnosed BPDxw) and found it very helpful.

Can you tell us more about your son's story?  How long was he with his wife?  What kinds of behaviors have you seen or are you seeing?  How are the kids being affected?  How much interaction does your son have with his ex and what has that been like?  Was there a custody evaluator involved in their case? What does custody currently look like?

The folks on this board have all been through it too and can help with strategies if we can get a better feel for the situation. 

You are not alone 

Take Care,
Panda39

PS You might want to encourage your son to check us out everyone here has had someone in their lives with BPD we all get it.  The most wonderful part of this site is the support shared with each other.  My SO and I are both members it really helped us speak the same language in terms of dealing with his ex.

[kells76]

Hi Ex-Mother-In-Law;

So sorry for what your son and his kids are going through. It's really hard to watch kids get turned against a loving parent, and it's bad for the kids.
The book recommendations from ForeverDad and Panda39 are great. Your son can also try reading articles by Dr. Craig Childress, a clinical psychologist working in California (I believe). This article (www.drcachildress.org/asp/admin/getFile.asp?RID=63&TID=6&FN=pdf) includes specific tips for communicating concerns to professionals without sounding like the vindictive parent. It also includes strategies for the "targeted" parent to communicate to the kids.
Your son might know this already, but at least in our area, it was possible to have cheap or free initial consultations with a few lawyers. He could try meeting up with one or two more, with a really specific list of questions about how they deal with high-conflict move-away situations. Perhaps he could ask them "If you were in my situation, and your ex was trying to move the kids away from you, who would you want as your attorney?"
ForeverDad's recommendation of avvo.com is also a good idea. There's a similar site called expertlaw.com as well, where users can ask legal questions and get responses. You may not get an actual lawyer responding (could be a court clerk etc) but you could pitch the question of "best assertive high-conflict case lawyer in City, State" and see what comes up.
Hang in there;

kells76

[livednlearned]

Ooof. I am so sorry to hear that the judge is allowing the kids to be moved to another state. That would utterly devastate me.

Searching for "parental alienation" and "high-conflict custody" tend to be good keywords for finding lawyers experienced with BPD level conflict.

You may also find this article helpful when trying to find the right kind of lawyer:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=270440.msg12566140#msg12566140

[ForeverDad]

Generally a court decision has a limited time period where the decision can be filed for a reconsideration, objected to or appealed.  The time frame can be anywhere from 10 to 30 days.  Is that still an option?

If he contemplates doing that, be aware that these actions usually are limited to whatever evidence or documentation was presented or testified to in court.  They usually don't allow additional information to be added afterward.

How far apart will they be?

What was the ex's reason for the move?  Valid reasons typically can be that work was not available to her locally, or possibly that she has family in the other area.  If she just wanted to up and move, I don't know whether your county or state allows a contested move without reason.

If all else fails, can he move to her new area and find similar work for himself?

[Ex-Mother-In-Law]

Wow!  What a warm and caring community this is.  I really, really appreciate that you all have taken the time, and expended the emotional energy, to support us in this difficult time.

Based on your suggestions, I feel like we are making some progress on understanding what options we may have. 

* ForeverDad & Panda39 & Kells76:  I have ordered Splitting, and will receive it tomorrow, and begin reading it.

* ForeverDad:  I have looked at the HighConflictInstitute.com website and we are considering if any of their upcoming seminars make sense to attend, and my son and I will likely arrange a consultation.  So, thank you for these tips!  FYI, for future reference, their FAQs say that do not share information about individual lawyers that people could reach out to.   I appreciate your following up with more information and questions, also.  My son has a 10 day window for reconsideration, but we can’t imagine the judge doing anything differently since nothing has changed.  If anyone thinks the judge might over-rule herself, please tell us so, and we will consider this option more thoroughly. My son also has 30 days for appeal, however the judge didn’t make any procedural errors that we were aware of (unless talking to the kids – ages 9 & 12 – in chambers was inappropriate) so we are not sure what our basis for appeal would be.  If we are able to find a lawyer we trust who can advise us on this, or if any of you have ideas about this, we are very open to taking action. For the answers to your additional questions, please see my attempt to expand on my son’s story, below.

* Panda39:  My son spent a fair amount of time on this message board, at the time of his divorce, but I am new to it.  He asked me to reach out to you all on his behalf, as the recent trial really interfered with his work and he is trying to catch up.  He said you were very nice people, and I can see that he was right. I will try to answer your questions about my son's story below. 

Kells76:  Thank-you for pointing me towards Dr. Craig Childress.  I checked him out on YouTube today and found some very helpful videos.  My son and I will read the article, that you recommended, next.

ForeverDad and Kells76: Thank-you also for tips on consulting lawyers, and pointing us towards avvo.com and expertlaw.com.  Now, instead of wondering what to do next, we have a list of things to look into.

LivednLearned:  I appreciate your sympathy!  I also appreciate your steering us to the useful search phrases "parental alienation" and "high-conflict custody".  I used these on YouTube and the internet and a lot of valuable information popped up.  I also skimmed the article you sent, and will read it again more thoroughly soon.  So, thanks!



MY SON’S STORY, IN MORE DETAIL, FOR THOSE WHO ARE INTERESTED, OR THINK THEY COULD HELP MORE WITH THIS INFORMATION IN HAND (sorry it is so long - it is a little complicated): 
* He was married for 7 years, during which time they had two children, who are now 12 & 9.  My son suffered due to her BPD symptoms during their marriage, but kept thinking he could help her, and at that time had no name for or full understanding of her condition. 
* The rest of the family was fully exposed to her impulsive behavior and re-writing of history and reality, when she suddenly left him 6 years ago, switching within 1 day from saying she loved him to saying what a horrible person he was.  We all were totally shook up when this was followed by pronouncements that she planned to move with the children across the country and that my son could Skype if he wanted.  With support from your community, he obtained a divorce and got 50% custody, so she was unable to run off with the kids. 
* Since then, life has involved all of us in the extended family walking on eggshells with periods of calm, recurring impulsive changes, and her behavior always being driven by ways she can bolster her ego, even if it is at the expense of the children.  Over this period, she had multiple lovers, including one within a couple of days of leaving my son, and one who moved in with her and the kids within a few months of the separation, a marriage, and then two more relationships since leaving that last July.  Over this same time she has lived in 4 places and crashed on couches twice for about a month each time. 
* After trying to move across country, and my son stopping her, she put a lot of pressure on him to find a job elsewhere, in a community she would like.  He has a fairly specialized education that only really fits the role of being a professor in a school with his discipline, so he looked for jobs at universities.  When he started getting interviews, she suddenly insisted that she and the children love it here, should not be moved, and that she was getting married, and that she would not move and he could take her to court if he wanted.  My son could not find work here, so he got a job a plane ride away, and has fulfilled 50% custody by working in one state, but keeping his home here. 
* Due to being a professor, this unusual custody arrangement has worked, with him being here for each school break, including months during the summer, a month over Christmas, plus his flying in every other week-end.
* We thought the children were doing well, as they seem happy when they are with my son.  We have now learned that they are not doing well, as we have recently seen how controlled they are by their mother.
* Their mother received an eviction notice effective February 1, on January 8th.  She texted my son, said she was about to be homeless, and could she and the kids move into his home.  He replied that he would not let them be homeless, but that he needed to think if giving them his home was the best way to accomplish that. 
* By the next day he had arranged to stay with us, and offered her his home.  However, by then, she had decided that she had to leave town because she wanted a particular type of job that was not available in our town right then – although she had no job lined up yet (she got one by the time this went to court).  She announced that she was moving, with the kids, 5 hours away, to live at a friend’s house, in 30 days, and that my son had no say in the matter. She would not discuss this rationally, so my son ended up taking her to court. 
* We thought, based on the lawyer’s assurances, that there would be a simple temporary hearing, where the lawyer would try to arrange for a Guardian Ad Litem to prepare for a full hearing in the future, and where a request would be made that the children stay in town for the remainder of the school year, with their mother staying too - if she wanted – or their father taking temporary primary custody if she wanted to move right then. Their divorce decree says neither parent can leave the county without the agreement of the other, or the court ruling that it is appropriate, so we thought this would be simple to arrange. 
* It all went terribly wrong, with the judge treating it as a full change of custody hearing and saying there was not enough evidence for that, while refusing to hear my son’s concerns about how he could maintain custody in another state while he lived here (owns his home, has a girlfriend, we live nearby, etc.), and works in still another state (a year and a half from tenure).
* So, my ex-daughter in law left with the kids, and my son still has no idea how he can fulfill his custody – and his ex-wife is saying that the minute he misses an hour of custody she will take him to court to reduce his custody. 
* Worst of all, she enlisted the aid of the children, having them talk to the judge, and lie for her in a few ways, and also say they wanted to live with her in the new state.  Their behavior threw us for a loop, but days of internet research later we are now understanding that her BPD has been having a more significant effect on the children than we were aware of.  So, combining that with the possibility of reduced custody, we are even more frightened for them than before, and are really hoping to come up with a plan that could help them.

Again, I really, really appreciate all of your help!  We love those kids and cannot really bear the idea that their BPD mother is gradually gaining more time and control over them.

[radoe]

You are doing amazing.

You describe my worst fear.

My wife is so sick from other diseases she believes she can not care for herself.
But I get the threats.

You are amazing.
You son is lucky you are his mom.

[Ex-Mother-In-Law]

Thank-you Radoe.  It sounds like you have a lot to deal with.  I hope you are doing okay!  If not, it is clear that the folks at this message board are more than willing to help.

[worriedStepmom]

Your son is at a disadvantage because he works/lives in a different state.  It can be argued that he no longer lives in the same county as his children, which allows the mom to move.  If the previous lawyer did not warn him that this could be an issue, then the previous lawyer wasn't very good.

If I were your son, I would be calling every lawyer in town NOW and asking them what they would recommend to get this decision overturned.   I'd hire the one who had a concrete and aggressive plan for what to do and who was willing to act immediately.  You want to also make sure that the lawyer tells you the worst case scenario - at least that way you know they've thought of it.

I would also insist that the children be in counseling, and attempt to get a court order for that if the mother won't agree.  It sounds like there have been enough changes in their lives that they can benefit from therapy (which is a good way to get it without saying that mom is crazy).  He could also ask for psychological evaluations.  She sounds like she's having a hard time keeping a job or a relationship and giving the children a stable life.

[Ex-Mother-In-Law]

Thank-you for this advice!  Yes, my son's lawyers have not been very good, unfortunately.  We live in a bit of a backward place, and a lot of the professionals here are not as qualified as we would like.  The prior lawyer did not warn him about the dangers of working out of state, and the most recent lawyer seemed to think he could deal with that wrinkle (but then did not).

I like your advice to try to find someone who could help him try overturn the court's decision.  We will look into lawyer's now.  This time, I think we will look in the nearest large city, and pay for travel, so we can get a better attorney.

We were just talking about getting the kids into counseling.  If their mother won't agree, we can bundle that into our appeal, along with Guardian Ad Litem, and - ideally - psychiatric evaluations.

I appreciate your help.  We are all grieving, right now, and fighting sounds healthier.

[Panda39]

What kinds of issues are the kids facing?

Is the turmoil effecting their attendance and performance at school for example?
Are they receiving appropriate medical, dental, vision care when they need it?

[Panda39]

Oops, the Panda is having a technical difficulty, here is the total post... .

What kinds of issues are the kids facing?

Is the turmoil effecting their attendance and performance at school for example?
Are they receiving appropriate medical, dental, vision care when they need it?

The eviction could play in your son's favor too.  Shows a lack of stability and could also be used in a case for therapy for the kids.  This is a very traumatic event for children it can really shake their sense of security. (My SO's uBPDxw was evicted 3 times and now lives in hotels - we think at the expense of her family)

What I'm getting at is, are their concrete situations where you can document neglect on the part of their mother out side of emotional abuse (this is a whole other thing and much more subtle).

My SO was able to get decision making in several key areas because he was able to prove that his uBPDxw was neglectful.  I should also say that he was an every other weekend with a dinner in the middle of the week dad initially during their separation.

School attendance... .my SO's wife pulled their older daughter out of the classroom against her father's wishes,and her teacher & school principal's advice to home school her through an on-line school.  Daughter then 15 did nothing for a year.  Dad tried everything but couldn't make her go to school.  She had a 0.0 GPA her freshman year of High School, that really affected college choices later. 

There younger daughter would have a stomachache on Monday and mom would keep her home all week.

Keeping the kids home from school was all about soothing their dysregulated mother.  Meanwhile the kids where not getting what they needed.

Medical/Dental/Vision... .

One example was my SO's younger daughter had a toothache, mom was going to take daughter to the dentist then didn't, rescheduled, then didn't, then decided to change dentists, scheduled an appointment with the new dentist, didn't make the appointment... .and on and on it went for 3 months.  My SO offered to take her several times but the ex refused.  Finally my SO found a dental office with weekend hours and got her in.

He was able to document all of this and once the divorce was final he came away with Education, Medical & Dental decision making, his ex received Therapy (we think the Judge figured a Therapist would figure out who the problem was), Vision & Gynecological decision making (this never came into play).

My SO was also awarded custody during the work week and one weekend a month mom received 3 weekends a month.

My SO and his ex separated in 2010, divorced in 2012.

In 2015 the ex did such emotionally abusive things involving their daughters that the girls voted with their feet and moved in with their father full-time and have been with him ever since.  D22 is no contact with her mother D18 is low contact with her mother.

Your situation may be different, I'm just throwing somethings out there to think about.  Your son should also document as much has he can anything that involves the kids, email communication is often suggested to do this.

Panda39

[Ex-Mother-In-Law]

Thank-you Panda 39!

I am pleased to hear that your SO was able to get key decision making and increased physical custody - and especially pleased that his daughters now have limited or no contact with their mother, and are clearly in your and your SO's lives.

What a lot you all have been through!  It is nice to hear that the effort paid off and you two were able to help the children.

My son has been communicating with his ex almost exclusively through email and text messages.  In fact, prior to the recent court case, he printed out all the recent communications, where his ex was clearly displaying instability, erratic anger, poorly thought through plans, panic, using the children to build her case, etc.   We could not get the judge to look at them.  Instead the judge volunteered that the mother was clearly a good mother who hit a rough patch and was doing her best.  Incredibly frustrating!

We are considering an appeal.  Not only did the judge not look at the emails, she didn't even look at the parenting plan when my son pointed out that he would be unable to fulfill his obligations if they moved away (it includes him caring for them during school ~4 weeks a year, which he can't do while living in another town). The judge also seemed to take into consideration the children's input (lies in support of their mother, who told them she desperately needed their help) even though they are only 9 and 12.

If we can't find a lawyer who thinks he can win an appeal, then we will try to line one up for the inevitable attack by the ex, who will eventually say my son has not been fulfilling his parenting time obligations - since we cannot figure out how he can do that in this new situation.

In terms of neglect, their BPD mother has not been neglectful in the types of ways you describe.  Neglect might have helped my son's case, but also would have been awful for the kids, so I guess I am glad that has not been happening.  Her abuse is more subtle - manipulation, instability, expecting the kids to take care of her emotions, etc.  We do have a lot of evidence of instability (6 relationships and 6 different homes in 6 years), and did touch on the 12 year old doing worse in school lately, but the judge was not interested. 

Perhaps the next judge will actually care if the kids are okay or not.  You all are helping us keep our faith in humanity, as you care, when the system did not.