Balancing kids’ safety with legal rights

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

The kids went to uBPDxw this past Friday for a full week, as I am headed out in a business trip on Monday until Friday.  We arranged to swap my two custodial days on this coming Monday-Tuesday with this past Wednesday-Thursday, and the alternating weekends lined up right so that they were just with me for a full week, so it seemed to be a reasonable balance.

Unfortunately, D9 has been having more and more trouble with going to uBPdxw’s house.  She hates it there. She doesn’t want to spend any time with uBPDxw because uBPDxw is so critical and strict with her, and otherwise “acts weird” (according to D9) in efforts to get along and bond with her. She also completely disregards D9s feelings and even mocks her, D9 has reported outbursts of anger that include yelling and cursing at the kids, erratic driving, and even throwing a chair.  In our work with the family therapist appointed by our Parent Coordinator, uBPDxw has gotten very specific feedback on stopping these behaviors.  In the meantime, while the kids are over there, D9 says she stays in her room as much as possible, crying frequently, and she texts and FaceTimes with me often for emotional support (which uBPDxw can’t stand). 

The added complication is that S6 came down with the flu on Friday. So, uBPDxw in a position of needing to improve/control her behavior with D9 (who is frankly getting to the stage of outright hating her) while also giving S6 more care and attention. 

uBPDxw was frazzled when I dropped S6 off on Friday (terrified of catching the flu herself, and said she didn’t want to touch him).  She was even asking me questions about taking care of him as if she hadn’t been taking care of various illnesses for our kids with me over the past 9 (almost 10) years!  Then yesterday when S6’s fever spiked to 103.8, she tried to blame me for not giving clear answers to her questions.  She had asked me if there were instructions from the pediatrician when I took him, and I had told her they just said to give him OTC meds to manage his symptoms.

I have always been the primary nurturer and caregiver with our kids, but she was there too, and she was frequently involved (especially if I was traveling on business).  She certainly also had no end to the comments and opinions about what I should be doing and how I should be dosing whenever it was me taking care of them.

This is all a lot of background to get to the point of my current rising concern, which is the safety of my kids while they are in uBPDxw’s care.  I have always worried about them in general when they go over there because I am aware of her emotional volatility, etc.  But she threw a chair just this Friday, in spite of the direct feedback/instructions from family therapy.  And D9 also reported that after they had an(other) argument yesterday, she heard uBPDxw singing a song about how D9 hates her.  To me, that is far too close to the mocking behavior that she has already been told to stop. And she acts nearly helpless when it comes to taking care of our sick son.

So while I try to work on giving my kids a chance to have some kind of a relationship with a somewhat functional second parent, I’m worrried that I am not doing enough to protect them.  Beyond basic caregiving ability, there are enough horror stories out there of mentally unstable mothers who harm their children (and I try not to think about how much more likely that could be if she thinks her relationship with the child is already “lost” as she likely believes it to be with D9). There are also plenty of stories out there of kids who harm themselves because they think there is no way out of a terrible situation, and I can’t stand the thought that D9 might get there some day!

I know I’m dealing with anxiety, but I don’t want to disregard legitimate concerns because I’m worried about overreacting.  I know the behavior improvements are supposed to take time, so at what point do I start legal proceedings to protect my kids?

mw

[mama-wolf]

The kids went to uBPDxw this past Friday for a full week, as I am headed out in a business trip on Monday until Friday.  We arranged to swap my two custodial days on this coming Monday-Tuesday with this past Wednesday-Thursday, and the alternating weekends lined up right so that they were just with me for a full week, so it seemed to be a reasonable balance.

Unfortunately, D9 has been having more and more trouble with going to uBPdxw’s house.  She hates it there. She doesn’t want to spend any time with uBPDxw because uBPDxw is so critical and strict with her, and otherwise “acts weird” (according to D9) in efforts to get along and bond with her. She also completely disregards D9s feelings and even mocks her, D9 has reported outbursts of anger that include yelling and cursing at the kids, erratic driving, and even throwing a chair.  In our work with the family therapist appointed by our Parent Coordinator, uBPDxw has gotten very specific feedback on stopping these behaviors.  In the meantime, while the kids are over there, D9 says she stays in her room as much as possible, crying frequently, and she texts and FaceTimes with me often for emotional support (which uBPDxw can’t stand). 

The added complication is that S6 came down with the flu on Friday. So, uBPDxw in a position of needing to improve/control her behavior with D9 (who is frankly getting to the stage of outright hating her) while also giving S6 more care and attention. 

uBPDxw was frazzled when I dropped S6 off on Friday (terrified of catching the flu herself, and said she didn’t want to touch him).  She was even asking me questions about taking care of him as if she hadn’t been taking care of various illnesses for our kids with me over the past 9 (almost 10) years!  Then yesterday when S6’s fever spiked to 103.8, she tried to blame me for not giving clear answers to her questions.  She had asked me if there were instructions from the pediatrician when I took him, and I had told her they just said to give him OTC meds to manage his symptoms.

I have always been the primary nurturer and caregiver with our kids, but she was there too, and she was frequently involved (especially if I was traveling on business).  She certainly also had no end to the comments and opinions about what I should be doing and how I should be dosing whenever it was me taking care of them.

This is all a lot of background to get to the point of my current rising concern, which is the safety of my kids while they are in uBPDxw’s care.  I have always worried about them in general when they go over there because I am aware of her emotional volatility, etc.  But she threw a chair just this Friday, in spite of the direct feedback/instructions from family therapy.  And D9 also reported that after they had an(other) argument yesterday, she heard uBPDxw singing a song about how D9 hates her.  To me, that is far too close to the mocking behavior that she has already been told to stop. And she acts nearly helpless when it comes to taking care of our sick son.

So while I try to work on giving my kids a chance to have some kind of a relationship with a somewhat functional second parent, I’m worrried that I am not doing enough to protect them.  Beyond basic caregiving ability, there are enough horror stories out there of mentally unstable mothers who harm their children (and I try not to think about how much more likely that could be if she thinks her relationship with the child is already “lost” as she likely believes it to be with D9). There are also plenty of stories out there of kids who harm themselves because they think there is no way out of a terrible situation, and I can’t stand the thought that D9 might get there some day!

I know I’m dealing with anxiety, but I don’t want to disregard legitimate concerns because I’m worried about overreacting.  I know the behavior improvements are supposed to take time, so at what point do I start legal proceedings to protect my kids?

mw

[zachira]

It is never too early to start legal proceedings to protect the kids. I was brought up by a mother with BPD and NPD and I would not wish the abuse inflicted on me and my siblings on my worst enemy. From past posts that I remember, there is already a lot of good documentation about the problem behaviors with your ex. Consulting a lawyer does not mean you have to start legal proceedings right now. A good lawyer will school you in the best way to keep records for possible future legal proceedings, will help you determine what is an actual emergency, and when is the right time to go back to Court to get a better custody agreement. If you can, getting more custody will be best for the children, and this can take time, and it can happen. Some of the fathers who post here (and I realize you are one of two mothers to the children, Did I say that right?), have gotten full custody after primary custody being initially awarded to the mother, and I expect you will soon hear their stories and excellent advice.

[Turkish]

Taking care of a sick kid with the flu isn't rocket science,  but the stress seems to be triggering her.  OTC meds have clear directions and there's this new thing called the internet... .Not to mention that you've probably given her the kids' medical provider number which likely has a help line.  It sounds like you're in a Parent-Child dynamic.  How can you shift out of that into peer-to-peer communication? Or is that possible?

You have primary custody.  Remind me again if there is actually a court order?

I'd be concerned over her inability to deal with the stress and her mocking D9 is unacceptable. That's clearly causing emotional damage. 

[mama-wolf]

Thank you zachira and Turkish for the replies!

A good lawyer will school you in the best way to keep records for possible future legal proceedings, will help you determine what is an actual emergency, and when is the right time to go back to Court to get a better custody agreement. If you can, getting more custody will be best for the children, and this can take time, and it can happen.

I did see my T today (she has weekend hours sometimes), and she agreed that contacting my L is a good option for now, just to get prepared.  She also said that if it came down to it, it is always an option to call CPS to formally check on the kids.  I am waiting for the family therapist to weigh in on where she thinks we are on things, but it's good to have a reminder of that option as well.

(and I realize you are one of two mothers to the children, Did I say that right?),

Yes, exactly right

You have primary custody.  Remind me again if there is actually a court order?

Yes, there is a court order, but unfortunately I do not actually have primary custody.  We had a parenting agreement in place (contractual agreement predating our legal marriage) which stipulated we already agreed to 50/50 custody in the event that we split.  So I stuck with that arrangement, but I also negotiated hard in mediation for a lot of details that weren't locked down in that agreement (like where the kids would go to school, keeping D9 with her current T, and a requirement to have a parent coordinator).

It sounds like you're in a Parent-Child dynamic.  How can you shift out of that into peer-to-peer communication? Or is that possible?

I think this is the real question.  I think we had a lot of that parent-child dynamic going on well before our separation, though it was masked by all of her criticism, corrections, reactions, etc.  I don't see a way out of that anytime soon these days either.  In fact, my T recommended I go back to seeing her as a toddler who simply cannot manage her responses, particularly since those responses continue to be damaging/triggering to me.

I'd be concerned over her inability to deal with the stress and her mocking D9 is unacceptable. That's clearly causing emotional damage. 

Yes, and it's behavior she has already been called out on by the family therapist.  So the real question is going to be what response I get from her to the email I sent this weekend spelling out my concerns.  I think she's limited in how she can respond right now since I sent the message only to her (with my T copied), so she would have to treat that as confidential.  I am pretty sure I need to send a message to uBPDxw bringing up the concerns either through the portal (where it is already known that the family therapist has access to review), or via an email with the family therapist copied.  My concern with that is D9 getting retaliation from uBPDxw for telling me about the behaviors.  That's the one thing making me want to wait until uBPDxw and I meet with the family therapist a week from tomorrow.

Ultimately, I will follow through on whatever is best for my kids.  I just can't pull the trigger on that process until I feel I have some chance of success.

mw

[Harri]

Hi again.

My concern with that is D9 getting retaliation from uBPDxw for telling me about the behaviors.  That's the one thing making me want to wait until uBPDxw and I meet with the family therapist a week from tomorrow.

Yes, definitely wait until after you get back from your trip and can talk with the counselor.  Also, see if you can time it so that your kids are not with her for a few days after that.

I have a question about child care.  When you go away, do the kids have to stay with your ex or do you have someone else they can stay with?    I ask for two reasons.  First, the more time they spend with healthy stable loving and validating adults the better.  Second, a week is an eternity to a kid never mind while being emotionally abused and tormented.   

I know your hands are tied on some things, I am just wondering if there are alternatives available to you. 

[mama-wolf]

Hi Harri, and thanks for dropping in!

When you go away, do the kids have to stay with your ex or do you have someone else they can stay with?  

They actually don't have to stay with her if I have to be away on my custodial time, and on the first few business trips post-separation I did not arrange for them to do so.  My mother lives with me, and can take care of them when I am gone.  This sparks a significant amount of outrage and indignation from uBPDxw for a couple of reasons... .1) because she outright resents my mother and my relationship with her, and 2) because she feels she should have right of first refusal to care for the kids if I go out of town.  She tried to have the ROFR condition built into our custody order during mediation, and I negotiated it out as a deal-breaker.

On previous business trips, I was able to arrange my travel so that I really only missed about one night with the kids... .maybe two.  And given other activities that may have been going on, I didn't feel like swapping days with uBPDxw made sense for the kids (for multiple reasons).  It just made more sense and was less disruptive all around for my mom to take care of them.  Not to mention that the only time they have a chance to build their relationships with my extended family is during my custodial time, which the family therapist agreed with.  But given that this subject had come up in our family therapy as a real sore spot for uBPDxw, and given that things were supposed to be improving, I at least made arrangements to swap days for this trip (not giving up time, but exchanging it) so that the kids stayed with me the entire week leading up to the trip, and they are staying with her now while I'm away.

But lesson learned... .this will not be happening again anytime soon.

In the meantime, the family therapist did reply today to my message and said (with my consent) that she will relay my concerns to uBPDxw's T for him to address in their next session.  I did express my concern about retaliation on my child for telling me about these behaviors, so I expect her to address that with uBPDxw's T as well.

mw

[zachira]

Therapists don't generally reveal things that a child has said that might result in retaliation by a parent. The therapist will likely find a way to address what is going on without exposing the child to retaliation which can mean the issue may not get fully addressed.

[mama-wolf]

Therapists don't generally reveal things that a child has said that might result in retaliation by a parent. The therapist will likely find a way to address what is going on without exposing the child to retaliation which can mean the issue may not get fully addressed.

A good point.  I am hoping uBPDxw's T will at least open the door, and I am still planning to send a follow-up note to the family therapist over the weekend (while the kids are with me) specifically referencing the lashing out at furniture and mocking song.  This should open the door to discuss openly in our parents' session with the family therapist next Monday.

mw

[takingandsending]

Ugh. This reminds me of an incident when my eldest son then 10 years old, had some type of upset getting ready for school and xw laid on the floor and kicked the refrigerator in a tantrum. The water line in the back of the fridge broke and flooded the kitchen. Repairman had to be called. I came home from work to help clean up and contain flood until he got there. Kids were very late to school which xw blamed on eldest son.

Our MC at the time who was later my T felt so bad for my kids and how scary it must have seemed to them to see their mom kicking the refrigerator, crying and then watching the flooding. That terrible realization that there is no adult present in the house and all the story kids have to create around that fact to normalize their lives.

I’m no saint. I once got angry with my oldest and threw a music stand against a wall. But I admitted my outburst was wrong and equally bad or worse than oldest’s outburst that precipitated it. I apologized and thought I had made a reasonable repair with both kids. And still, a year and a half later, my youngest S7 brought it up, and I revisited it with him from his point of view, finally seeing how scary it must have been for him to see his dad enraged. I told him that adults get angry just like kids but that acting it out like I did was absolutely wrong. He seemed to feel heard or seen in that moment.

Guess what I’m saying is it’s hard enough for parents in these situations, but it’s hopeless for a parent with BPD unless they are really working through treatment to arrest their thoughts and shame and self judgment. Best you can do is get as much custody as you can and try to see your D9’s experience through her eyes so that she can have the validation of just how crazy her world can be sometimes. Wish she didn’t have to hurt like this. I am sorry for how helpless and scary this must be for you too.

[worriedStepmom]

I've been wondering how things were going for you.  I'm sorry that your ex isn't taking the feedback she's been given seriously.

As you watch her reactions and the children's responses to her, can you see any patterns that could be helpful for you when you do go back for more custody?  We figured out that SD11 does best with her mom if they are together for only 2-3 days in a row.  Any more than that, and the stress got to mom and she behaved worse.  SD11 also needs a refuge, and 2-3 days is about her limit before the stress hits her too.  Our schedule is now a modified week-on/week-off where H gets SD for an entire week, and then the following week uBPDmom gets SD11 on M/T and F/Sat/Sun. 

Looking back on all of their interactions, is there any combination that you can see that makes D9 feel more comfortable/less stressed?

Have you spoken candidly with the new family therapist to see what her plan is?  Is there a point at which she will acknowledge that xW is not actually fixing the behaviors and that this is detrimental to D9?  Does the family therapist fully understand how harmful this is for D9?  The family T and D9's T can be powerful allies for you if they see the big picture and are willing to testify to help protect D9.

When you see your L again, make sure that you have the documentation about how your ex handled your son with the flu.  While that isn't medical neglect, it's also unacceptable.

Until you and your L have had a chance to make a plan, D9's plan of withdrawing to her room while she's at her other mom's house is probably the best bet.  She knows she can rely on you for unconditional love, and that's powerful.

[ForeverDad]

So are you figuring you're stuck with the prior agreement for equal parenting time?  I would think that once you document 'actionable' incidents or behaviors then you could start a Change of Circumstances action to detail why you seek a change to the order for the benefit of the children.  Of course, what is 'actionable'?

[livednlearned]

We arranged to swap my two custodial days on this coming Monday-Tuesday with this past Wednesday-Thursday, and the alternating weekends lined up right so that they were just with me for a full week, so it seemed to be a reasonable balance.

Do you notice that these deviations from the custody order seem to be followed by additional stress, for her and for the kids (even tho she is technically "getting" something)?

[mama-wolf]

Hi all... .sorry for the delayed reply!  I was away on a business trip, during which I also caught a nasty cold.  I'm thankful that it wasn't S6's flu, but I still wasn't up for much more than showing up at my meetings and sleeping all week.

how scary it must have seemed to them to see their mom kicking the refrigerator, crying and then watching the flooding. That terrible realization that there is no adult present in the house and all the story kids have to create around that fact to normalize their lives.

I am sorry for how helpless and scary this must be for you too.

Thank you, takingandsending.  Your story paints a pretty clear picture of how scary it must be for kids in that situation.  Whether it's kicking a refrigerator or throwing a chair (as D9 reported), I just can't imagine what the kids must be thinking and feeling.  And yes, I do feel pretty helpless right now... .

Guess what I’m saying is it’s hard enough for parents in these situations, but it’s hopeless for a parent with BPD unless they are really working through treatment to arrest their thoughts and shame and self judgment.

And especially difficult when the BPD parent decides that when not getting her way, it absolves her of responsibility for her behavior.  She sent an email this past week to me and the family therapist with an attachment that detailed her "very real, very stressful co-parenting concerns that have persisted over the past 8 months,"  which she wants to address in our next session together on Monday.

In the attachment, she cites text from the custody order that references how neither party will influence--or allow at third party to influence--the children not to love and respect the other parent.  She then states an example of this influence is "Parents' choices and/or abilities regarding housing type and location, frequency of restaurants, movies, weekend outings and travel."  This gets to her resentment of our different financial situations (I make a lot more than she does), and suggests that I am choosing to continue living in the house we bought (which I can afford, but she can't) and to spend my money the way I do in order to turn the kids away from her.  She also goes on to cite examples of time my mom spends with the kids, and things she has bought them as her influencing them away from her as well.

Her next citation is a portion of the order about how neither party shall restrict communications from the minor children to the other party.  She has always resented the fact that the kids (particularly D9) wish to contact me while they are with her, but never really care to contact her when they are with me.  And under normal circumstances, I might nudge a little harder for them to not be in contact with me.  The problem is that this is not a "normal" circumstance.  Given the consistent reporting of the nature of uBPDxw's behavior, and the fact that my T confirmed it is good for D9 emotionally to know she can contact me and get some comfort from me, then no way am I going to try to squash that.  I do still try to keep conversations relatively brief, but not nearly enough for uBPDxw.

So uBPDxw states that this ability for them to contact me is potentially a huge conflict with the prior stipulation about influence, because she believes influence is  exerted on the children through the communications.  She wants to set restrictions that she touts as "basic boundaries," limiting time of day and frequency, but also saying the location of such communications should be in an open area where she can monitor overall tone and content of the communications.  And that otherwise, outside of those very limited and controlled opportunities, the children should be expected to self-soothe and seek comfort from the custodial parent.

When that custodial parent has just yelled in their face and cursed at them?  Or thrown a chair?  Or mocked their feelings?  She's trying to isolate D9 just like she had been gradually isolating me over years.

She includes more in the attachment, and of course everything she suggests is supposed to be so reasonable and self-explanatory, while any alternative option is characterized as completely negative.  As I read it, I was amazed at how easily I could recognize the black and white thinking now.

And then she closes her message with the following:

"I cannot successfully plan for opposite actions {from DBT workbook} if my day-to-day schedule (particularly with children in my care) feels like shifting sands rather than having predictable co-parent support, shared values and boundaries, etc. 

If we work together in family therapy with {family therapist} to establish agreed-upon boundaries, expectations and consistency for our children's needs, then I can work much more efficiently with {uBPDxw's T} and my DBT skills.

So, what I read there is "Do what I want or I can't be held responsible for improving my behavior."

As you watch her reactions and the children's responses to her, can you see any patterns that could be helpful for you when you do go back for more custody? 

Looking back on all of their interactions, is there any combination that you can see that makes D9 feel more comfortable/less stressed?

Hi worriedStepmom, and tanks for chiming in!  Unfortunately, no.  I do know she claims that after 2-3 days, D9's "mood finally stablizes" and they are able to experience some quality time together.  And yet D9 is contacting me daily by text and FaceTime, desperate for interaction with me and still sharing how miserable she is there.  She's least stressed when she's coming home to me and knows she doesn't have to go back to uBPDxw for several days.

Have you spoken candidly with the new family therapist to see what her plan is?  Is there a point at which she will acknowledge that xW is not actually fixing the behaviors and that this is detrimental to D9?  Does the family therapist fully understand how harmful this is for D9?

This is my plan for our session on Monday.  I have relayed my thoughts and responses to uBPDxw's diatribe privately to the family therapist, and intend to have a very clear discussion with her about where that threshold is between a deficient parent and someone who is unfit to parent.  I hope to have a better understanding of what to do from here.

The good news (I suppose) is that the family therapist is actually a psychologist, someone who works with families who are court-ordered to attend therapy with her, and someone who also serves as a parent coordinator on other cases, so I do think she's clear on the impact on D9.  My T said she and the family therapist are also on the same page as far as uBPDxw's borderline traits.  I think all of this will be key in any court action I may seek.

So are you figuring you're stuck with the prior agreement for equal parenting time?  I would think that once you document 'actionable' incidents or behaviors then you could start a Change of Circumstances action to detail why you seek a change to the order for the benefit of the children.  Of course, what is 'actionable'?

I do think I was stuck with split custody to begin with, FD, but now that behaviors are more and more obvious (and seem to have escalated a bit rather than improved), I am working on my options.  Between feedback from the family therapist and a discussion with my L, I hope to have a better idea on how much longer I would have to wait to file for a change.  I sense that will be happening, but I can't initiate it's a delicate balance between executing it when I have a good chance of winning vs. tipping my hand and potentially making things worse.

Do you notice that these deviations from the custody order seem to be followed by additional stress, for her and for the kids (even tho she is technically "getting" something)?

Hey LnL... .I'm not sure.  I think it's all a big ball of stress to her, regardless of the conditions.  Anything she "gets" just seems to make her feel entitled to demand more, or to go back and revisit things she didn't get in the past.  And no matter whether we're on the normal schedule, or we have adjusted it somehow, she just can't seem to get herself together.

I think our next session on Monday is going to be very telling I think... .

mw

[takingandsending]

Hi mama-wolf.

My xw is also presenting a list of co-parenting complaints to the dispute mediator named in our decree (a therapist who also happened to be our collaborative divorce coach). My L and I worded the annual meeting in such a way that I need only show up to it. There is no time limit or guarantee of resolution of dispute, and the mediator has no authority to change the parent plan. So, I will let xw address her "very real, very stressful co-parenting concerns" that also persist. If the mediator does not redirect it to solution based discussion, I will leave.

I think that my xw is coping better than your xw, although it's like choosing between black and mostly black. My sons have not been distressed and calling me for help. My oldest does let me know here and there that he struggles, and my youngest is painted white so in some ways he has it worse to uphold being his mom's protector and idol. Back when I was only seeing the boys each weekend (now at week on/week off custody), I used to coach them how to make transitions easier on themselves by making transitions easier on their mom. Xw also said it took 2 days to normalize when the boys came back from my house. I understood this to mean that it took her 2 days to adjust to having them. But I did recommend that the boys play together quietly in their rooms or boisterously outside the house for an hour after going back to their mom. This helped my oldest avoid her blow ups due to her difficulty in self regulation. Is there anything that you can think of that will help your D9 help her other mom adjust?

I know that it is not fair for your D9 to have to do anything other than to be a kid, but somehow, I think that children of BPD parents generally do have to adjust, one way or another. I've been reading Bill Eddy's book Don't Alienate the Children, and I am seeing with my own eyes that no matter how manipulative or sometimes even dangerous my xw is as a parent, the kids are determined to hold on to some version of her as their mom. I see how torn my S7 is in accepting my love, how by doing so might betray his mom. His T that he just started seeing has spotted this right away, and she gently tries to help him open up.

We really are in the most challenging places. Being a reasonable parent, person, doesn't really work with a person immersed in cycles of shame/blame. Almost any direction we choose reinforces the all or nothing thinking that the pwBPD demands, and that becomes the kids' normal. As you can tell, I haven't yet got to the part of the book that discusses resiliency. But I know that I am more determined than ever to find a way to have my S13 and S7 to learn how they can become flexible, resilient thinkers. I don't want to be part of the forces pulling on them from one side or the other. I want them to have the confidence and security to feel what they feel and think what they think. But it is a slow process of building that foundation for them.

Sending you and your children all of my prayers. I hope you make headway on Monday. I hope that your family T keeps clear, consistent boundaries on communications. Really rooting for all of you in my heart.

[Turkish]

Please forgive me if I missed this,  but do you pay her child support? Her attitude is a cousin to that of my ex who thinks that she doesn't have to pay me shared expenses.  Because I make more,  I can afford it naturally. 

[mama-wolf]

My oldest does let me know here and there that he struggles, and my youngest is painted white so in some ways he has it worse to uphold being his mom's protector and idol.

So familiar.  While I know uBPDxw and S6 have their arguments (particularly when he feels like being defiant), it's still pretty clear that he's painted white.  Anything he does that frustrates her is "age-appropriate" and "understandable given the separation," while any conflict with D9 is because D9 "has some serious issues," "knows how to hook me (the Non) in," and/or is being influenced against her.  It's never about uBPDxw's own behavior and lack of impulse control.

Is there anything that you can think of that will help your D9 help her other mom adjust?

I know that it is not fair for your D9 to have to do anything other than to be a kid, but somehow, I think that children of BPD parents generally do have to adjust, one way or another.

I think the best thing she can do is what she currently does... .she basically avoids interaction with uBPDxw by staying in her room quite a bit.  Usually this is in the interest of doing homework during the weekdays.  But even aside from that, I know she just tries to stay away from uBPDxw.  It sounds incredibly sad and isolating to me, though.  No wonder she wants to text and FaceTime so much... .she just wants human interaction with someone she can be herself with.

And agreed... .there is that feeling that she shouldn't have to do anything other than arrive at that house and feel like she is at home.  We all eventually learn that we have to adjust to difficult people in our lives.  Children of BPD parents just have to learn it a bit earlier than most.

I don't want to be part of the forces pulling on them from one side or the other. I want them to have the confidence and security to feel what they feel and think what they think. But it is a slow process of building that foundation for them.

Sending you and your children all of my prayers. I hope you make headway on Monday. I hope that your family T keeps clear, consistent boundaries on communications. Really rooting for all of you in my heart.

Very well said, takingandsending.  And thank you!

Please forgive me if I missed this,  but do you pay her child support? Her attitude is a cousin to that of my ex who thinks that she doesn't have to pay me shared expenses.  Because I make more,  I can afford it naturally. 

Hi Turkish!  Oh, yes... .I pay her child support, but the problem is that uBPDxw is convinced that it was not set nearly as high as it should have been.  She is self-employed, and had started her new firm just under six months prior to our mediation.  I agree that it was understandably still building up clients, but there was income, and she had/has the potential to reach my same income level (if not surpass it) if she works for it.

So in mediation, she pushed to have her annual income calculated at about a third of my income to form the basis of the child support calculations.  On a custody order that could not be revisited (unless due to a significant change in circumstances) for three years.  Prior to separation, she had shared with me that her T said being self-employed would be good for her, because it would keep her focused on being accountable for earning her income.  In the interest of maintaining that accountability, I pushed very hard for there to be some consideration of her earning potential in the calculation (she is a licensed attorney who has been in practice for 10+ years). 

In the end, her income was still calculated at a little under half of mine, I pay for the kids' health insurance, all before/after school care, all day camp when school is not in session, and beyond that I pay her $300/month in child support.

Her attitude is a cousin to that of my ex who thinks that she doesn't have to pay me shared expenses.  Because I make more,  I can afford it naturally. 

Oh, yes... .So, in addition to the above, I also pay 70% of all unreimbursed medical expenses and extracurricular activities, and we pretty much split anything else 50/50.  She gets upset when I submit expenses to request that she pay me back the 30-50% that is her responsibility because she thinks I should just cover it myself.  I'm apparently being petty when I ask for reimbursement of $5 here and $15 there... .she doesn't care that 1) these amounts reflect that I have spent equal or more than double that amount myself (depending on the type of expense), and 2) all those expenses add up!  In her mind, she decides that means I just shouldn't do other things with my money, as if my income is still hers to spend.

All of this just feeds into her ongoing resentment of anything I do with the kids, and her perception that anything fun that I'm able to do with them is me influencing them against her.

mw

[livednlearned]

So uBPDxw states that this ability for them to contact me is potentially a huge conflict with the prior stipulation about influence, because she believes influence is  exerted on the children through the communications.

I would be surprised if anyone reads her message as anything other than nonsense. Especially if people involved are aware of her BPD traits. At the same time I wonder if her struggles with BPD may make professionals try harder because she is showing signs of wanting to work on her DBT skills. That could look like them giving her many many bites of the apple.

I noticed my n/BPDx's frustration with me shifted to frustration with the judge, his lawyer, my lawyer, my son's T, but especially our PC who was most involved in the communication. Some of this meant letting the process play out in its slow, agonizing way, all the while documenting and making incremental and necessary legal moves. Pretty soon there was a lot of light shining on our situation and my main challenges became managing impatience with the system and figuring out how to pay for everything   A lot of n/BPDx's emotions that had been laser focused on me began to fan out and spray the professionals and that was a relief to say the least. Reading between the lines, it seems like something similar might be happening in your situation?

She wants to set restrictions that she touts as "basic boundaries," limiting time of day and frequency, but also saying the location of such communications should be in an open area where she can monitor overall tone and content of the communications.  And that otherwise, outside of those very limited and controlled opportunities, the children should be expected to self-soothe and seek comfort from the custodial parent.

The more she feels out of control the more likely she will try to control others' behavior, and especially yours -- in her mind there is a history there and she will probably default to that because it used to work.

We all do this to some extent -- people with BPD feel more out of control so controlling behaviors are more extreme. She can't regulate her emotions skillfully so if you would just do abc and not set her off then she wouldn't need to throw chairs 

Hopefully over time you see a pattern where professionals treat her hot air for what it is and can rest a bit in the knowledge that everyone has a good grip on what's happening.

I know it's triggering to be on the receiving end of these blasts and deal with them and have to respond to them and work through them pretty much nonstop. The big epiphany I had reading  Eddy's Don't Alienate the Kids that talkingandsending mentions is to internalize the resilient qualities I wanted S17 to have. That had a huge effect on how I experienced n/BPDx's constant shenanigans because it made me realize I had some control over my own reactions, an epiphany that I don't think n/BPDx will ever have.

I hope things adjust and cool down for your family on the road to a better situation for the kids, whether it's a modification or something else.

It's admirable how you're handling all of this.

[zachira]

I have wanted to ask these questions for awhile and please forgive me if you have already explained all/some of this and I missed it. Who are the biological mothers of each child? I am just wondering if we are missing the mark with some of our advice because being the biological parent could make a big difference in determining who is most likely to get custody. I know a gay woman who has been separated from her partner for many years, and her biological child and the  biological child of her former partner live with her. The other biological child of her former partner lives with the biological mother, and this is a big problem because both are seriously bipolar, as the child is behaving more and more like his mom, and when the child visits with his non biological mom he threatens suicide and generally upsets the whole household. In spite of this, the non biological mom would like to have this child living with her because she is in a better position to help him than his biological mother who is generally unraveled most of the time, and it is clear to me that the mom I know and respect loves all three children as if they were her biological children. Is there anything we are not understanding because your situation is different when it comes to challenging custody in court because of who the biological parent is? Also, is my use of language sensitive and correct when talking about a family with two moms and their children? I am not as familiar with the unique challenges of LBGT couples as I would like to be.

[worriedStepmom]

It's funny, in a very sad way.  My H's uBPDex is also very sensitive to the idea that our household income is so much higher than hers.  When she had primary custody, she got extremely upset if we bought SD11 clothing or school supplies, if we took SD11 on vacation, or, heaven forbid, if I made her lunch for school rather than relying on the free lunch that SD qualified based on her mom's income.  All of those were cited as examples of us trying to steal her daughter.  All of those would also result in uBPDmom trying to "win" by spending money she didn't have to do something else for SD11 (that SD usually didn't want).  I've seen this pattern for others here too.

Once H got primary custody, uBPDmom decided she shouldn't have to pay for anything or do anything except fun things with her daughter ever again, since H wanted to be *the* parent.  She can't comprehend that there can be two involved parents.  

It looks to me like your ex is having the same problem, wanting to be *the* parent rather than share parenting, and wanting to control what you are doing because she can't or won't.  I don't have a fix for that.

My response to that spew of nonsense - ask the therapist to spend half a session determining if the children are incorrectly associating love with spending money.  If they are not (and they aren't, because that's not who you are), then the problem has been addressed.

I can almost see both sides to the phone call issue.  It's wrong to stop a kid from contacting a parent, and I believe it's wrong to listen in on calls between the kid and the other parent, as that puts the child in a loyalty bind.  It's also wrong for a parent to overly infringe on the other parent's parenting time.   The key factors to me seem to be that your daughter is initiating the calls, that you are not in any way prompting daughter to initiate the calls, and the types of conversations that you have with your daughter while on those calls.

At the very least, this drama is proof that your ex is not acting in good faith.  She chooses to blame her parenting issues on you rather than herself.  Your ex has been told what she needs to change in order for your daughter to bond with her.  She is refusing to do that, and that's on her, not on any phone calls that you have with D9.  I would be very clear about that in your meeting on Monday.

[mama-wolf]

A lot of n/BPDx's emotions that had been laser focused on me began to fan out and spray the professionals and that was a relief to say the least. Reading between the lines, it seems like something similar might be happening in your situation?

She hasn't quite diverted her focus from me to the professionals yet.  I think the family therapist is pretty on top of her behaviors and motivators, but she's trying to work through them, while at the same time it does not feel like she's bending over backward and letting her get away with things just because she's supposedly trying to work through her DBT.   I do think that if uBPDxw does not start getting more of what she wants--and certainly if I start pushing for her to be even more accountable for her behavior--she will start to split on the family therapist and PC.

We all do this to some extent -- people with BPD feel more out of control so controlling behaviors are more extreme. She can't regulate her emotions skillfully so if you would just do abc and not set her off then she wouldn't need to throw chairs 

Hopefully over time you see a pattern where professionals treat her hot air for what it is and can rest a bit in the knowledge that everyone has a good grip on what's happening.

God yes... .this is exactly the behavior.  Just like a physical abuser saying "If you wouldn't make me so mad, I wouldn't hit you."   I'm really trying to keep faith in the professionals' grasp of the situation... .

I know it's triggering to be on the receiving end of these blasts and deal with them and have to respond to them and work through them pretty much nonstop. The big epiphany I had reading  Eddy's Don't Alienate the Kids that talkingandsending mentions is to internalize the resilient qualities I wanted S17 to have. That had a huge effect on how I experienced n/BPDx's constant shenanigans because it made me realize I had some control over my own reactions, an epiphany that I don't think n/BPDx will ever have.

Thank you... .it definitely is triggering, which is something my T has commented on (in a "of course you're struggling... .you're having to constantly interact with your abuser" way).  I appreciate you both referring to Don't Alienate the Kids.  I do have that book, but had set it down a while back and really need to pick it back up.

I have wanted to ask these questions for awhile and please forgive me if you have already explained all/some of this and I missed it. Who are the biological mothers of each child? I am just wondering if we are missing the mark with some of our advice because being the biological parent could make a big difference in determining who is most likely to get custody.

Is there anything we are not understanding because your situation is different when it comes to challenging custody in court because of who the biological parent is?

Hi, zachira, and thank you for jumping in!  And there's no need to ask for forgiveness... .I appreciate you asking so that you can be clear on the details!

I am the biological mother of D9, and uBPDxw is the biological mother of S6.  After D9 was born, we worked with a family law attorney to set up a parenting agreement that would protect the rights (as much as possible) for the non-biological parent for D9 and any future children that we might have.

Even with the parenting agreement, which was essentially like a private contract and enforceable in court, there could have still been some sticky spots with the courts... .either if we were to separate but also from an estate planning perspective (for example, if something happened to me, my widow or biological child could file for wrongful death, but not my non-biological child).  So we were motivated to cross-adopt.  As residents of North Carolina, we had to wait until the Supreme Court ruled to recognize same-sex marriages, and then after we were legally married we were able to initiate step-parent adoptions for the other's biological child. (Side note that it's stupid to call it "step-parent adoption" when we were both there at conception for each child, but that's the legal reality). 

Adoption can be expensive though, even in a relatively straightforward case, so it took us a while to initiate that process.  It ended up taking about a year to complete due to some complexities in our county of residence, the lack of attorneys familiar with processing this sort of adoption for same-sex parents, and general delays with the system.  One of the major factors that kept me hanging on (maybe a few months longer than I really should have for my own mental and emotional health) was to ensure that we received final confirmation that the adoptions were complete.  It was a double-edged sword for me... .gave me rights to S6 that I might have struggled to retain otherwise, but also gave uBPDxw similiar rights to D9.

So we're on essentially equal footing from a legal perspective.  And luckily for S6, he does not seem to have similar issues regarding his mental health.  I know he's still young, but do think there was significant influence on uBPDxw from the fact that she was born premature, and also from her FOO in general.  And I'll have him in therapy as much as necessary to help him work through all of this.

Also, is my use of language sensitive and correct when talking about a family with two moms and their children? I am not as familiar with the unique challenges of LBGT couples as I would like to be.

Your use of language was absolutely sensitive and correct.  I can only offer that if you want a little short-hand, it's generally acceptable to say say "bio mom" and "non-bio mom."

My response to that spew of nonsense - ask the therapist to spend half a session determining if the children are incorrectly associating love with spending money.  If they are not (and they aren't, because that's not who you are), then the problem has been addressed.

Thank you for the suggestion, worriedStepmom!  I'll try to bring this up in session with the family therapist today... .

I can almost see both sides to the phone call issue.

And whether uBPDxw believes it or not, I can see them, too.  I try to tread very carefully here as a result.  But of course, when dealing with a pwBPD, a perceived injustice or imbalance is vilified and blown out of proportion.

At the very least, this drama is proof that your ex is not acting in good faith.  She chooses to blame her parenting issues on you rather than herself.  Your ex has been told what she needs to change in order for your daughter to bond with her.  She is refusing to do that, and that's on her, not on any phone calls that you have with D9.  I would be very clear about that in your meeting on Monday.

I will definitely try

mw

[Harri]

This thread has reached the post limit and has been split and locked.  Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=334545.msg13038478#msg13038478