She has been advised by clergy to distance herself from her affair partner

[Enabler]

this is a continuation of the previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=334193.0

The message that we match our romantic choices emotionally in some way resonates with me. If he's chosen two dysfunctional women, and that's what he's attracted to- then he also has his own issues. A relationship built on lies and illusion doesn't sound appealing in the long run.

Yes, I agree, nor does it make him a very good source of advice on how to achieve a successful, harmonious relationship. In the only conversation/argument I have had with OM in the past few years I pointed out to him that his own wife had some childhood trauma issues. He seemed belligerently adamant that he had nothing to learn there nor was it his responsibility to provide her with a better emotional environment where she could operate. Didn't exactly feel like he was taking his Christian responsibilities seriously on his existing wife's front and seemed happy to let that fish fly in favour of his new conquest.

FF, I was not at all party to any of the conversations with clergy and I only uncovered that these meetings had taken place through various means of snooping (which she and he know about... .and in fact I believe she reported me to the police for... .again, I have not been told about that). I very much doubt the full extent of the relationship/communication/intimacy was revealed in these meetings and as such it fits with the theme of attempting to get empty validation that the relationship is sound based on a conversation with omitted details and embellishments about other things. Still, they came away from every single one of these meetings with a "this is not cool" response... .From what I can see it worked a little like this... .they would have the meeting, a judgement would be decreed, they would discuss that they needed to distance each other, the following day OM would say "just one last thing" and proceed to make 10000 points as to why they needed to have some contact due to 'important church things' or 'weaning off each other' and then they would just continue as was until the next moment of morality struct my W. No one gives up cigarettes by trying to cut down, it just doesn't work.

It's very difficult to be certain of anything as all details are hidden from me. All I can do is either not care at all, or glean spotty information and make assumptions as to what is going on. I have been excluded from any realm of existence other than providing for her financially and supporting the home. She sees me as a lodger in my own home who has zero connection to her... .an au pair.

I sometimes wonder if she has been advised to take 'narc prevention' action... .LC, NC, Grey Rock... .it would make perfect sense, only she was pretty good at that before since she's always been a huge fan of passive aggressive behaviours and silent treatment. I can certainly see a scenario where people have validated and actually endorsed her pre-existing abusive behaviours as a defence against her abusive H... .i.e. me.

However, deep inside she can't shake away that what she is doing is wrong... .it won't go away. She tries to generate the feeling such that it becomes fact (in her fantasy)... .but the facts keep not matching and feelings (anger, resentment, fear) go away leaving her left with reality. I mean if your husband is abusive to you and the kids... .you don't leave your H to look after them for 158+ evenings (excluding holidays and nights away I took them on) in 2018 do you? That doesn't make sense to me... .(similar story for 2017 FWIW)

Enabler

[formflier]

Aren't there some ethical issues there with the church that issues regarding the marriage are being discussed and at least one, most likely 2 parties to those marriages are being kept in the dark?

The light of day seems to generally be a good thing, especially in this day and age of (name your church scandal). 

I think you should give thought to approaching the clergy (are we talking ordained clergy here?) and ask if your marriage was indeed discussed and that you would like to be involved in the discussion.

I also get the vibe that these two (your wife and OM) are doing "semi-official" church functions... right?  Maybe being on committees and doing things like that... perhaps together.

Is that correct?

FF

[Enabler]

That is spot on. My W recently trained to be a pastoral assistant (Baptist Equiv = Deacon, maybe even Elder). She's also on the parish committee. Not sure whether he holds any qualified position in the church.

All discussions seemed to be focused on the ethical nature of W & OM relationship (with omitted details making it a bit of a sham... .they prepped the 'pitch' before hand and evaluated the success or failure on convincing them it was 'good' rather than telling them the facts and allowing them to make a judgement). I know of at least 3 formal discussions with local/semi-local (she goes to 2 churches) official clergy, 1 informal at a conference they were at together, 1 with home group friends.

I guess since "the marriage" was not the topic of discussion my attendance was not deemed to be required, nor did I need to be informed. at least 2 of these discussions occurred pre her telling me the marriage was over. Someone with any sense might well have thought it be a good idea that myself and OM'sW attend but for whatever reason that didn't happen. There wasn't a desire to seek the truth, there was a desire to seek validation from people they thought they could convince. 

A good friend of my W's said to me in Oct16... ."Enabler, EnablerW doesn't speak to me, she knows I won't tell her what she wants to hear."

Enabler

[Notwendy]

If I were attending your church, I think I'd be creeped out by those two. It's impossible to completely hide it in the long run.

I worked in an office with a male boss. He was always pretty level headed and fair with all of us, mostly female co-workers. Married, had good boundaries but friendly. Then, a new female was hired and he changed. He seemed to distance himself from us and the two of them would "glance" at each other occasionally and we all knew it even though they tried to hide it. It wasn't just about him and her. It changed the dynamics between them and all of us. She wasn't "one of the gang" but was distant from us too.

I'd be willing to bet the other church members know more than they let on. I also think it creates changes in the relationships with others in the group. I wonder if anyone has left the church because of it. I'd be uncomfortable with them as group leaders.

[formflier]

I guess since "the marriage" was not the topic of discussion my attendance was not deemed to be required, nor did I need to be informed. at least 2 of these discussions occurred pre her telling me the marriage was over. 

Seems like something to be cleared up.  To say that an "illicit" relationship between a man and a woman, who are both married but not to each other, is by definition about your marriage.

Perhaps that is the way you approach this.  Certainly clergy would't want to be part of condoning or even "hiding" an illicit relationship like this.  Once they clarify their role in this to you... .it's no longer illicit (or you will have a better set of facts to determine their role)

Then the question should be asked "do we want people in the church to emulate our deacons?"  "What kind of message is the church sending by knowing about X, yet still putting them forward as deacons?"

FF

[Enabler]

Other church members have noticed something between the 2 of them and have said so to me. Not senior clergy but people involved in the activities my W gets involved in. It seems obvious to them. It's a small parish church and the senior clergy believe what they want to believe... .and what they want to believe is that they are just very good friends, both going through similar abusive relationship break ups and are there for each other in mutual platonic support for each other. There's a cause and effect thing going on here and they seem contented (because it suits) to believe effect rather than cause. It's far more appetising for them to believe a woman who on the face of things appears a perfectly respectable 'good' Christian, than someone whom they have had limited interactions with, who is male and who doesn't attend THAT church on a regular basis. Me being abusive and her being abused fits nicely into their 'model' of what abuse looks like. It shows a serious nativity on their part, however I am sure this is very common... .if you haven't experienced a unicorn, you likely don't believe they exist. We see on the boards all the time how BPD parents are able to make accusations and have authorities running around in circles for years investigating child abuse, and accusations of emotional and physical abuse which are unfounded.

CofE protocol stipulates that in the case of suspected abuse, no information is to be shared with the perpetrator or even get him/her to confirm the victims story. So you can see that from the Church's stance they're a bit bound by the 'trump' nature of the abuse claim to even loop me into any dialogue re other issues. I'm essentially shut out by that claim. Any attempt by me to raise awareness just validates the abuse claim first and foremost and little credence will be paid to an emotionally abusive man seeking to 'get his wife back in line.'

So... .I raise it to God and allow him to work his ways.   

[formflier]

Why not clear it up?

I don't see how a person coming forward to clarify an issue "validates" the claims of abuse.  Can you walk me through that?... .connect the dots

Part of getting to know each other on these boards is understanding each other stories an pointing out... .nudging... .in areas that are murky and if sorted out would likely result in a much happier/healthier/authentic life.

There is a theme in your story that a lot of actions/inactions are built upon what people think and believe... .yet there seems to be a reluctance to have a conversation with those same people to actually understand what they think/believe.

Now... .if these issues were trivial, such as "Enabler has a secret passion for pink polka dot jaguar cars... ."  well... .I have a  hard time seeing how that could matter.

Compare that with clergy appearing to give tacit approval to an illicit relationship that is affecting your marriage.  

Sure... .there may be benefits and consequences to doing that... .to removing "murky".  But for sure your life will be more "authentic"... ."honest"... .(really not finding the word I like... .but you get the picture).

My guess is those benefits and consequences will be more "real" and less "feared" or "imagined" (again... not exactly the right words... .but let's suffice it to say you "fear" validating that you are an abuser)

And... circle back around... .even to your screen name.  Are you "enabling" your wife to have an "easy affair"... .or are you enabling your wife's affair.

Complicated stuff... .lots of connection.  This isn't a dichotomous choice.  

Usually when things get complicated and murky and there is a choice that "brings light"... or "clarifies"... .that's an avenue to pursue.

FF

[Enabler]

You know me very well FF and you’re very right when it comes to my inaction about removing the muggle.

I spoke to the vicar at the time in mid 2017 (she has since left and been replaced), she seemed very keen to chat and very smiley and “you can only work on yourself”, but I got this feel when I was talking to her of “yeah yeah yeah, you’re trying to get me onside, tell me how things were, classic abuse play, I’ll grey rock you and tell you to do work on yourself... .you don’t have a clue what you’ve done to poor old enabler W.” Similarly when I’ve attempted to correct the narrative to others, I’ve got the same look... .“here we go, trying to twist stuff, correct the narrative, that’s what abusive people do”. So, frankly I’ve given up ‘correcting’, ‘enlightening’ ‘clarifying’ as ALL it did was further dig me deeper into my hole of looking, smelling and sounding like an abusove person... .because I was behaving like an abusive person would.

Also, the very start of that conversation is going to be a red flag for abuse... .“so how did you come across the knowledge of this private meeting to discuss private things between us, your W and OM?”... .“oh well I scraped her WhatsApp messages from the family computer”... .CONTROLLING... .ABUSIVE.

I have no cards, no chips and no credit. I have to accept my reality and work with that. Working with that in my mind means working with what I do have which is the ability to get my house in order, behave consistently impeccably and not be at all chaotic. She can’t do that... .

Conflict with someone that has a gun and proven she’s prepared to use it (to an extent... .we get to find out what that extent is) isn’t a fair fight when I have a water pistol... .so, the better route is Bruce Lee’s way... .the art of fighting without fighting. Every second she spends living a lie is another drop of acid bleeding through her own conscience.

Ephesians 4:1-3 (Listen)

4:1 I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Enabler

[empath]

I get the sense that you are resentful about her church activities. That's totally understandable; I have felt that way myself with my h's leadership roles that continued after my conversations with his clergy leadership. He looked "good" and had all the right answers, so he must be good right? 

What would happen if you were unavailable to provide au pair services for her "church" activities?

[formflier]

You know me very well FF and you’re very right when it comes to my inaction about removing the muggle.
  So, frankly I’ve given up ‘correcting’, ‘enlightening’ ‘clarifying’ as ALL it did was further dig me deeper into my hole of looking, smelling and sounding like an abusove person... .because I was behaving like an abusive person would.

I'm not suggesting you "correct" or any of that.  I'm suggesting a conversation to "clarify" if what you believe happened/is happening... .is true.

There may or may not be a time for correcting.

Also, the very start of that conversation is going to be a red flag for abuse... .“so how did you come across the knowledge of this private meeting to discuss private things between us, your W and OM?”... .“oh well I scraped her WhatsApp messages from the family computer”... .CONTROLLING... .ABUSIVE.

How is noticing something of a "family computer" abusive? 

There is a more minor "thread" in your posting of accepting things as true that don't seem to be true when I start digging. 

It would be one thing if you bought a hacking tool and installed spyware on a device that was "hers"... .but... anything on a "family computer" is fair game.

I have no cards, no chips and no credit.

Another example of stating something as "fact"... .that just isn't so.

I have to accept my reality and work with that.

 And again. 

You have chosen to do this.  You don't have to.

FF

[Enabler]

Fair points, it’s certainly been evident that any attempt I have made so far to proactively point to the truth has backfired, and any passive approach I have made to show the world the real consistent me has yielded success. I don’t know whether success is measured by her having an easier affair and thus being less aggressive with the divorce, or measured by closeness... .at the moment it’s measured in her pushing the divorce process which I guess is likely a measure of how easy it is for her to have her cake and eat it.

I’m not sure all would agree that reading anything one knows is intended to be private is not ‘wrong’ or an invasion of someone’s privacy. Is there a bit of narcissist injury (especially in him) in the mix, is there a huge amount of shame and guilt being triggered by me knowing the truth... .yes yes yes. Do I think I have done wrong, well I have mixed feelings, I believe I did what was necessary in an attempt to work out what was going wrong, be more effective and try and protect my family... .definitely yes. Have I been effective... .no. Did I make a habit of invading her privacy before this, absolutely not. Did she? Very much so, to the point where I always kept my phone on my person.

My reaction in the first year of this car crash (3yrs in) were a catalogue of errors. It really was only mid 2017 when I came to BPD Family I even started not making things worse. It’s a deep hole.

[formflier]

  has yielded success.

Define success please.

I’m not sure all would agree that reading anything one knows is intended to be private is not ‘wrong’ or an invasion of someone’s privacy.

I'm not either, although I lean very much towards it's not.  Like many things in life "it depends"... life is complicated... just like this situation.

That being said... .look at what just happened (consciously or unconscionably)... .the argument just shifted.

Before the messages were PROOF of abuse... .now the debate shifted to is it invasion of privacy.

I would advise to move away from these sideshow debates. 

You know... you have proof. 

"Enabler... .how do you know."

"I got on the family computer and saw messages."  (that's it... .no JADE... don't tell them about her breaking in your phone or other details.)  Family computer... you saw it.

Just the other day I read a dear abby about a daughter that share a computer with Dad.  Texts came up on computer proving an affair.  Then... she read more texts that were on the computer.

Dear abby didn't get after her or even mention "invasion of privacy".

  Have I been effective... .no.

Compare this to "success" above... .tie all this together please.

Did I make a habit of invading her privacy before this, absolutely not. Did she? Very much so, to the point where I always kept my phone on my person.

So... .don't fall for her projection.  Not really needed to talk about it.  In fact I would advise you not to.

Stick to what you know.

  It’s a deep hole.

Yep... .so... which way is up and which way is digger deeper.

Seriously... .

I don't think that all these years of "enabling" an affair and "enabling" a church to "look the other way" has helped anyone.

Again... maybe I missed the "success".

Sorry man... not trying to beat you up here... .but trying to step by step walk through this mess with some rational thought.

FF

[empath]

E, years ago, we had a family computer that my h and I both used. One day, I was looking for pictures of my newly adopted nieces on the computer. I uncovered porn that my h had downloaded while I was at work; then, I knew that he had done something because I had proof. I don't think that I did anything wrong or abusive because it was on a family computer that I had legitimate access to. My h did, though.

I have also had "private" communications with others - those don't happen in ways that they are stored in a way that is accessible for others. If your wife wanted those conversations to remain private, she could have done some things to make sure that they were.

There are so many stories of people finding evidence of an affair on a joint computer these days.

Hmm. Do you have a copy of the messages?

[Enabler]

Empath, I don't resent her Church work, it's a good thing. I have been fully supportive of it practically and picking up other work that doesn't get done as a result. I resent the hypocrisy of it for sure. I have copies of some of the communication. I have shared some of this stuff with people and it seems like it just rotates back to "Well, but you were abusing her, and having that is evidence of your abusiveness". I want to ask people "what does that 'abuse' look like?" and maybe that should be my tact going forwards. I'd imagine it sounds something like this "She's afraid of you".

FF,

Success - this is a shifting benchmark but strictly speaking my constant definition of success is "Unimpeded access to our children, adequate financial resources to make a new life for myself and not have onerous ongoing financial liabilities towards her, children who are emotionally strong enough to not be broken by my W's disorder. My own mental health to be in order." Note there is nothing in there about my W, this is something I have way less control over. My success was more based on what I wanted to avoid, which was being divorced, having parental alienation  and having no resources with which to rebuild my life... .anything else was better. I count her going from "I definitely want a divorce" to "I've arrived at divorce and I realise my life is going to suck" as a small win. There's even talk of going to see friends together for a weekend in the coming months. I also count the fact that I'm probably the least anxious about my situation I've been in 7 years, I feel less confused even though the situation itself has become more confusing. I have an awesome relationship with my kids, which is now diamond solid.

Success was not - getting my wife to stop having an affair, getting the church to believe that she was having an affair, getting other people to believe that I was not abusive to her... .I think I would have counted these things as success points for me in 2016 but actually... .should I really measure success on things I cannot control in the slightest. I showed her the evidence I found on our PC in May16 and said "Do you think this appropriate communication with another man? I can't control you but I think you should think about what you're going to do about this." I spoke to the vicar Apr17 and said about the communication and the affair, she didn't attempt to do anything, or if she did it was unsuccessful. I told and showed friends the evidence and the affair May16-May18, they just said "she's not having an affair, she just doesn't love you, move on." I told her parents and her sister about the affair Sep16, they didn't want to listen and would just say things like "you didn't mean to abuse her!"... .I just can't base success on these things.

I don't know if you have experienced the same thing, I guess you have given your BC conflict... .but I find it astounding how quickly church folk abandon their Christian values in favour of suggesting we should all seek "happiness". The number of people who come up to me at the end of church services, pray with me and offer support, then quickly follow this "support" up with, "sometimes you just have to move on and get out"... .really? Really? Is that what we just heard the vicar say? Is that whats in the bible? Is that the extent of your commitment to your spouse? Maybe we should turn round to your husband or your wife and let them know that when things get tough you're going to be running out the door... .shall we do that now? I am appalled by how fickle people are.

I totally see how the argument gets shifted back to being about me rather than her or them... .but then that's how this works, she's not responsible for her feelings and actions, so all things do come back to me. Whilst I am doing things (anything she can twist to be 'abusive') she is able to push things back to being my fault (in her mind and the minds of others)... .whilst I do nothing she no longer has that outlet and the burden sits with her and she can no longer shift the guilt to me, and I am sure that other people are starting to see this now. My biggest Enabling has been to allow her/the church/our friends an excuse to look at me rather than her, I've been a wonderful distraction with my accusations and talk of PDs. My silence and natural kindness is FAR FAR more powerful.

Enabler

[formflier]

So... .the church has a public set of values.  If their private set of values doesn't match, that's something that "church leadership" should be aware of and lead on... .basically take a stand.

So... .if a Vicar believes it appropriate to knowingly put forward a person actively involved in an affair as a Deacon... .that should not be a "hidden" decision.  Everyone has a boss... .a chain of command if you will

Their decisions will reflect their values... .if they don't, that's something church leadership should review and be accountable for.

Again... .check the news on church scandal of the day. 

I get it people will try to be "willfully ignorant" of what is going on... .you job is (IMO) not to convince them to "join" a side... but to remove ignorance as an option.

One clarification.  The vicar did do something... right?  Were they not told to "knock it off"?

Did the people involved in that "evaluation" do any follow up to see if anything was done?

Massive difference here in a person that wants to set in the church pew each Sunday... sing and worship... .and carry on an affair.

versus

A person that wants to be "put forward" (blessed if you will) by church leaders with a leadership title of "deacon".  People don't just "fall into" being a deacon, it takes some sort of vote or action... .at which time a persons character is considered... .since that church leader will represent values of the church.

Again... .what happens when good people stay silent?  Apply this to your situation and to the various other church scandals. 

Which way is the pendulum swinging... .staying silent... or speaking your truth.

In your case... .you have eyewitness testimony (you) and you have independent evidence... .the messages.

That takes it beyond he said she said.

FF

[empath]

I have shared some of this stuff with people and it seems like it just rotates back to "Well, but you were abusing her, and having that is evidence of your abusiveness". I want to ask people "what does that 'abuse' look like?" and maybe that should be my tact going forwards.

That would be a natural follow up question. Or saying something like I'm not sure how printing something off of a shared computer could be evidence of abuse.

I understand the resentment toward the hypocrisy of the church. In my case, there were several layers of people who didn't take a stand when they should have and even when there were legal obligations to do something. Some of that story is that the people who were willing to say something were cut out of the decision making process. I know because one of my friends was cut out.

You mentioned a semi-local leadership decision regarding your wife's pastoral assistant role. Is that on a diocesan level?

[Enabler]

2 churches

1st church is sleepy church where most of her work is done, they sponsored her for pastoral assistant training. I know a conversation has happened there between my W and the vicar but not sure what on, I believe focused on 'my abuse of her' rather inappropriate relationships. I also spoke to vicar individually, not sure what happened but she was given the information required to act if she choose to. Sponsorship came after MY conversation with her... .so clearly chose not to. I might add that this is a church that permitted a school parents BBQ to take place in the church where parents got so drunk people they were throwing up outside, however they objected to the graveyard being used for a infants school fireworks display (to launch them from safely) because it would be disrespectful to the dead people... .I'd say they had confused values. 

2nd church, more attendees, out of the village in a local town, somewhere where they don't know me and 'they' go together on a Sunday evening... .then go for a drink until 1am... .siiiigh. They met with senior clergy there, seemingly no one calls them out on them continuing to attend together, but I'm not there and can't because I'm at home looking after the children, so can't tell for sure.

Me 'shaming' simply hasn't been effective in the past and I don't think it's going to be effective now other than to literally hoof her out of the proverbial cage where OM will be waiting arms open saying... ."look how abusive he is... .animal"... .as per before, time and time again. People in the UK get outraged about the dishonesty of Brexit information, they make huge noises about the desire to be more mental health aware, to fight injustice... .but when it comes to an actual situation of mental health or injustice they slide back into the old stereotypes of... .he's a bloke who's pretty confident, she's a woman who's upset... .I'll believe what I want to believe. as much as JADE makes things worse with a pwBPD it ironically doesn't do much good with Nons either. People will believe what they want to believe until they want to believe something different... .and the people around me don't.

Enabler

[formflier]

I would encourage you NOT to look at this through the lens of BPD... shame... and that kind of language or thought.

That people may or may not be ashamed of their actions is not the point.

There seem to be a lot of assumptions about what people decided to do based on results (putting your wife forward).  My advice is to remove assumptions and ask Christian leaders to clearly take a stand about how their values influence their decisions.

I would suggest you do it in writing and ask for a written response. 

Instead of making accusations, list out what you see as the facts and say this has raised some questions you would like clarified.

such as

"Given the evidence of an illicit relationship presented to the church, it makes me wonder about the value statement the church is apparently making by putting forth X as (whatever the title).  Please clarify.

I'm glad you clarified the second church issue.  So... they essentially go and sit in the pews and then go do their thing... .no leadership... right?  They are just part of the crowd?

Does church 2 know that your wife is leadership at church 1? 

Which church was involved with the "knock it off" conversation? 

Are both of these church's the same denomination?  Do they have the same "boss".  (pardon my ignorance here... .Baptists don't do church hierarchy... .it basically stops at Deacons/church vote.)

So... .I'm learning much more about Enablers story. 

Why does the family not attend church together?  So... .Sunday evenings... .wouldn't the family go to church together?  Why not take your kids and go to church... sit with Mommy... .let OM figure it what he is going to do.

A distant second would be not being available for childcare on Sunday evening.

Do you kids know about OM?

New information here... a lot to ponder.

FF

[empath]

E, what does the pastoral assistant role entail?

[Enabler]

I'm glad you clarified the second church issue.  So... they essentially go and sit in the pews and then go do their thing... .no leadership... right?  They are just part of the crowd?

That's correct as far as I know.

Does church 2 know that your wife is leadership at church 1? 

Which church was involved with the "knock it off" conversation? 

Are both of these church's the same denomination?  Do they have the same "boss".  (pardon my ignorance here... .Baptists don't do church hierarchy... .it basically stops at Deacons/church vote.)

I don't know if church 2 knows about leadership role at church 1. Church 2 made the 'pack it in' call which was described by OM like being "told off like a little school boy". I've been to a Sunday morning service once but never been in the evening with her (and him). Both churches are church of England so 'report' to the same diocese Bishop. However, the 2 churches are at polar opposite ends of the evangelical spectrum, one being a sleepy village very traditional church (church 1) and the other being a very charismatic modern church (church 2). Church 2 has a flavour of interpreting the bible as you wish, and how you feel, which kinda played into the 2 of them making their own pick n mix interpretations and inferring meaning from scripture. The talk I heard was very powerful and emotive, however, and maybe I wasn't in a good place given I was aware of the 'relationship' when I went there with W, OM and his W and family, but I took umbrage over the speakers point which said "Science doesn't attempt to understand the why, only the how, only God can explain the why." I thought this was a bit of a dangerous comment to make on a Sunday morning, since people have been having the science vs religion argument for years and I'm not sure this chap was overly qualified to make that philosophical call. 

Why does the family not attend church together?  So... .Sunday evenings... .wouldn't the family go to church together?  Why not take your kids and go to church... sit with Mommy... .let OM figure it what he is going to do.

Long story, I go to church 3. The church we were married in and all 3 of our kids were Christened at. W unilaterally decided 3.5yrs ago that she wanted to go to church 1 (local) for the kids as they had friends there. I didn't like the conservative vibe of that church, nor did I like the parishioners who seemed to be more keen on polishing the church artefacts than making people welcome. Church 3 know EVERYTHING and have been very supportive/challenging over the last few years, I suspect that church 3 has spoken to church 1 as they are in neighbouring parishes. Church 3 were very surprised about the pastoral assistant role and lack of intervention by church 1.

Church 2's Sunday evening service runs from 18:30-21:15, my kids are 10/8/5 so they need to be in bed way before that. TBH, not sure they have much interest in it either. 

Do you kids know about OM?

They know OM, they haven't been told what I know about the inappropriate relationship. However, they are not foolish and see what they see. I have told them in no uncertain terms that I do not like OM, because he has made some accusations against me and said that I was abusive to them (kids). He has come up in conversations about how to avoid people you don't get on with, how some people are just rotten and they are best left to be poisonous away from you. I have said to my W that "I do not want ANY of my children to spend ANY time with that man, because I find him morally reprehensible, manipulative and he clearly has certain warped views about me." Thus far my W has respected that after the event that prompted me to make that statement.

FF, I do not see the merits in attempting to sabotage something that is important to my W... .the pastoral work. I am very very sure that God has his hand in this work and she is being put to good use, but also that through this work she is being exposed to things that are likely to enlighten her to her own issues. For example, the pastoral assistant role is primarily in a local women's prison. Prisons are riddled with people with emotional control disorders. She is confronted by less fortunate mirror images of herself weekly, confronts people who are suicidal, self harm and heinously depressed. I know her own personal experiences offer her a unique insight into these individuals struggles. She goes on mental health courses, she goes on courses about DV and emotional abuse. I believe that God is not only working to use her, but also to enlighten her... .and me.

A reoccurring message she received time and time again was to "Sanctify herself for Gods work". I think she took this (as a pwBPD would) that she needed to sanctify herself of me. With an inability to self reflect, and having a starting narrative of I'm perfect/I can't be wrong the message must have meant to cleanse herself of the bad things in her life i.e. me... .NOT... .OM, heavy drinking, bad language, selfish behaviour, passive aggressive behaviour, impulsivity, hypocritical lifestyle, emotional neglect of the kids, excessive socialising and HER CORE SHAME. from what I can see, she has done EVERYTHING to sanctify herself, other than sanctify HERSELF. She can't, it's too painful for her. 

Hope dies last... .but I believe that it's becoming harder and harder to ignore the more I detach from the rollercoaster and SHOW her what love looks like to the kids and others.

Enabler

[formflier]

FF, I do not see the merits in attempting to sabotage something that is important to my W... .the pastoral work. 

Do you see the merits of sabotaging her affair?

I don't like the word sabotage (especially in this context... .but wanted to mirror your statement)

verb
1.
deliberately destroy, damage, or obstruct (something), especially for political or military advantage.
synonyms:   wreck, deliberately damage, vandalize, destroy, obstruct, disrupt, cripple, impair, incapacitate


So... .if you see a person climbing in a window to rob the house next door... .is it accurate to say you are "sabotaging" the robbery... or the persons life?

What word would you use to describe a person that reports what they see to the appropriate authorities?  Not gossip... .but report to the appropriate authorities.


One point of confusion:  Is your wife a deacon?  Was that mentioned somewhere? 

Is your wife involved in only one official church leadership role... this thing she does at the prison.

I wish I had more time for Bible study on this... but this link generally captures my view.

https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/how-are-teachers-judged-more-strictly

Massive difference in someone that sits in pews and "consumes"... .versus someone the church puts forward as a teacher.

What has your wife used as the foundation of her moral character... upon which she teaches?

FF

[Enabler]

One point of confusion:  Is your wife a deacon?  Was that mentioned somewhere? 

Is your wife involved in only one official church leadership role... this thing she does at the prison.

She is equivalent to a deacon in the CofE church. She does deacon like work in Church 1, and in a local prison. She is on the parish council which deals with administrative things related to the churches activities. So technically 2x roles, 1x leadership/support function, 1x pastoral care and guidance role in prison.

I need to consider your points. My current thinking is around her pastoral work being 'good', so unlike the robber, even though it is in essence hypocritical when seen in parallel with her life away from church, including OM. No one is without sin are they? She is searching for meaning and finds meaning in her Christian work, this is good (in my opinion). Her ability to control her behaviour adhere to the bibles teachings outside that work is something else. I am sure that somewhere deep down she knows what she is doing is inappropriate since she's been told and goes to great lengths to conceal it... .would shining a light on it make her more likely or less likely to stop, I think less likely to stop and more likely to feel justified in her classification of me as abusive. There's an interplay between her secular life and her Christian life where she is neither all one or other thus picks instruction from one or the other depending on what suits her narrative.  Someone will tell her what she wants to hear so she will gravitate towards that. She will be judged more harshly as she 'should' know better, and she 'should' know this, and I believe she does know this, but these are the consequences she has to bare.

Enabler

[formflier]

Good that you will consider things. 

I often worry about how things come across on a computer screen.  I'm not trying to "tell" you what to do, but I am trying to challenge a deeply rooted (pervasive) way of thinking and considering things that likely has contributed to where you are in your life now.

I'm not trying to give your wife a pass... .I would likely assign over 50% to her.  That being said... .you don't control your wife's thought process and actions... .you do control yours.

So... .if Enabler stopped enabling and started (fill in the blank)... that's something you have 100% control over.

If you started worrying 100% about your actions and started worrying 0% about the responses of others... .well... that's something you also are 100% in control of.

I'm not suggesting these changes will be easy, certainly many of the ones I've made haven't been. 

My next whopper of a change is tentatively scheduled for late March/early April... .and I'm very nervous about it... .yet unless I uncover something major... .I can't imagine NOT making the change/taking the action.  Yet at same time... I want to give myself time to carefully consider and edit the letter/complaint I will send. (l am at about 15 pages right now)

For me... .once I do something that I couldn't imagine ever doing... .I felt/feel emboldened and it makes the next big/bigger change come a bit easier.

Back to you:  You seem to have a big investment in people NOT claiming that Enabler is abusive.  Is Enabler abusive? 

Do you see this "investment" when you consider yourself?

FF

[Enabler]

I do see this investment yes.

I invest(ed) in it because feeling = fact. She feels and therefore tells other people that I am abusive. Other people encourage this narrative without questioning "what that looks like?" or "why might he have said that?" or "what were the circumstances behind that?" For the most, people can say what they like and there's little in the way of consequences, especially when it appears that almost all of them are nice as pie to my face, including her parents... .I for one couldn't imagine being at all friendly with my daughters abuser. Other peoples advice, which she is very responsive to, is based on her emotional expression of the facts... .most people don't differentiate between facts and emotional depiction of peoples perception of facts... .that's what the courts are for. Different people cry over different things at a very simplistic level.

My T questioned in my first session why I used the term abuse, he found it grossly unhelpful. I do not believe I have abused my wife or my kids in any sense of the word. But it's not what I believe or don't believe that is going to determine whether or not this D keys pushed over the proverbial cliff... .but at the same time I am not in control of that other than ensuring I don't put myself in a position where any of my behaviour could be construed as abusive, controlling whatever else she believes I do. I like my new way of operating, it's way way way more centred and less chaotic and I feel minimal desire to rescue.

Enabler

[empath]

She is equivalent to a deacon in the CofE church. She does deacon like work in Church 1, and in a local prison. She is on the parish council which deals with administrative things related to the churches activities. So technically 2x roles, 1x leadership/support function, 1x pastoral care and guidance role in prison.

That's what I was wondering because I was the pastoral assistant at my h's church, and I thought it might be similar. My h decided to start attending his church because he wasn't able to get our former church to start the ordination process, and the new one was. The former church had good reasons. The new one had approved him for ordination within around 6 months of us being there, but they also wanted him to do some things (like getting our finances in order). The new one was also far more interested in "looking good".

I will say that God sees all this, and I've seen Him bring situations together. My h was aware of his actions and was placed in situations where he could observe and see the consequences for others who acted similarly.

I just watched as all this unfolded - knowing that eventually, something would happen and h would do something. He did.

My h was very responsive to other people's advice, too - unless they told him not to do something that he wanted to do. He was able to convince his church leadership of his depiction of our situation, and they never verified with me.

[formflier]

I don't put myself in a position where any of my behaviour could be construed as abusive, controlling whatever else she believes I do. 

So... .has this worked?  She now tells people you are not abusive since you have made this change?

FF

[formflier]

  But it's not what I believe or don't believe that is going to determine whether or not this D keys pushed over the proverbial cliff... . 

So... .you believe your actions will control your wife's beliefs and feelings, and therefore she will not actually go through with the divorce? 

Did I reflect that back correctly?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

This thread has reached its maximum length and is now locked. The conversation continues here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=334375.0