He is cheating after all - 4

[Bnonymous]

This is a continuation of this thread https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=334311.0
Some context:

Two weeks ago, I was sat holding his hand, listening to him telling a psychiatrist that he feels he's losing himself, that he can feel the real him slipping away from him, that he can feel himself being taken over by something cold and emotionless and he doesn't know how to stop it and he's scared.

And crying to me that he's losing himself and doesn't know who he is anymore and he's scared. Saying how, one minute he cares deeply about me and his daughter, and the next he can't care about anyone or anything. Saying he doesn't know who is and he feels empty and he can't feel his feelings anymore and he can't recognise himself. Sounding deeply distressed and scared.

Looking in the mirror and shouting at his reflection, calling it dirty... .Again and again, that he feels he's not himself anymore and he doesn't know where he's gone and he's frightened.

So I think I have reason to think this could be a breakdown and not what he really wants. If it's what he really wants, then I will have no choice but to accept it with grace and move on. But I really think there's a great deal more to it than the surface.

[Skip]

So I think I have reason to think this could be a breakdown and not what he really wants.

What does this actually mean? He is punishing himself?

[Bnonymous]

Perhaps, yes, that's one way to look at it.

I will sound like an arrogant soandso if I say he may have felt he didn't deserve me, but he feels like that about anything good in his life, not just me. That has been especially intense lately.

And it's all against his values. It has been a constant in him that he is morally opposed to cheating; it's something he never wavers on. And the things she says, the ways she acts, they are against his values too.

Like her boasting that his daughter is happy that her dad has found someone normal with a house and a car and a job. He hates the word "normal" - finds it repugnantly judgmental. He has been talking to me for a while (since long before her) about how much it saddens and upsets him that his daughter is picking up shallow and superficial attitudes at school and judging people by their status and possessions (he'd specifically mention house, job etc). He wouldn't want to see that encouraged.

People with BPD can change their values quickly etc, yes. But things like this have been constants with him all the time I've known him, deeply held constants. And he is likely to feel extremely adrift without those anchors.

Maybe he has been "a fool for love" and has lost sight of his values or sacrificed them because of passion and the need to merge.

Or maybe it *is* self-punishment. Maybe he has dropped something good for him and sought out something that is the polar opposite of everything he values, to tell himself that's all he deserves.

Maybe he had a one night stand, couldn't deal with the shame, couldn't deal with the guilt and betrayal of his values, so he needed desperately to find a way to justify it to himself and he thought, if he got with her properly and loved her, then it could turn it into something he could live with. Or just had a one night stand and then punished himself for it by resigning himself to not having anything better.

Another possibility is drugs. There have been a number of pointers to suggest he might have relapsed.

I don't and can't know. But what I do know is that this (changing values or living outside of kept values) has not been a positive and affirming experience for him, whatever the reason. It has been very frightening and very lonely.

But this speculation is all in answer to your question. I think what I actually initially meant by the comment was that he doesn't sound like he is in a place psychologically where he is able to know what he wants right now. I didn't even mean that he doesn't want this, but that he doesn't know.

That Saturday when he told me he was going to delete her and her family's numbers and change his SIM so they couldn't contact him because he wanted them to leave him alone, he sounded happier than he had in a long time, he sounded filled with a sense of relief - it was palpable. Then, five days, later he's putting her on the phone to me and announcing she's his new girlfriend... .

(I didn't know who or what she was to him at the time - at the time, he was pretending she was a coke addict who had assaulted him while he was unconscious, and had done it to hurt him, because she knew how happy he was with me and how he was always boasting about that, and she wanted to sabotage our [mine and his] relationship to ruin everything for him - yes, this is what he said).

[once removed]

I don't have friends. I have social phobia and (I suspect) autism. And the social world is too confusing and difficult and painful for me to navigate, so I keep myself to myself. And 99.9% of the time, I genuinely like it that way and am genuinely happy with that. It's just times like these I wish it were different.

how did it get that way? when did it start?

[Bnonymous]

Lifelong. I'm honestly happy with it. And, no, I don't need a relationship to plug the gap and be my everything or any such cliches. I was happy single and friendless for years before we met, and I will be again.

I find social engagement exhausting and draining, and I find solitude stimulating, invigorating, and joyful. That day with my neighbour was lovely, but I know from experience, that I wouldn't want more than one or two days like that at most per year.

I get that it's "weird". And that it would be unhealthy for most people. But it's not unhealthy for me. I have been this way all my life and it's okay to be. It's okay to be me. It takes a long time to learn to be comfortable in your own skin and not feel like you should be or live in ways other people judge to be healthier/happier/better etc. And I didn't get to that place until my thirties - I am grateful to be there, to have that - it's something very precious.

[once removed]

youre coming at all this from a pretty defensive position, Bnonymous; assuming judgment where there isnt any. members are trying to support you.

what im getting at is, what is the near future plan in terms of taking care for yourself? for rebuilding?

[Bnonymous]

Yes, I acknowledge that. I am used to people being critical about it and coming out with "humans are social creatures," "it's not healthy to live in isolation like this," or "you need to broaden your social circle" etc. I have heard it so much and expect to hear it, so I do immediately go on the defensive when it's brought up, because I tend to think "here we go again... .". I apologise for assuming intention.

It's too early for a plan. It's one day at a time at the moment. Then it will basically just be a return to the life I led on the days he wasn't here, but for every day instead of half of them. And I did used to feel that I didn't get enough of those days, of that time to myself, and, although I will miss him terribly, I will welcome more alone time. Reading, writing, walking... .Following a reference in a book to another, then one in there to another... .Learning and learning and learning and cramming my head with knowledge, about whatever subject I chance upon, and then the next one. That's how I lived before him and on the days he wasn't here and that's what I'll slowly be going back to.

And analysing, yes. Because I like it. And it helps me. Analysing and dissecting the situation will be something I will continue until it ceases being a way of getting my head round it and sweeps out into more general analysis of the human mind and condition and relationships and etc, and then that turns into ideas for poems or novels. This is how it will progress. The analysis I'm doing now will, in time, turn into an artistic reflection on much broader themes, though maybe not for a year or two.

[once removed]

That's how I lived before him and on the days he wasn't here and that's what I'll slowly be going back to.

im speaking generally here:

another member here once talked about when we face a crisis like this, we face a choice/opportunity. we can let time dull the pain, and get back to our ways, our old lives. or we can reinvent ourselves, be stronger, wiser, better... .and fearless.

the former is very tempting. it protects us. the crisis has a way of exposing that it doesnt, in the end.

[Bnonymous]

I, personally, was happy in my old life. I don't want to reinvent myself when I love being the person I am. I want to celebrate being the person I am and enjoy it.

You see, I used to be unhappy when I was younger. And, in my thirties, I went through this incredible period of self-acceptance and embracing myself and letting go of internalised expectations. And it left me with huge appreciation for myself and my life. I really really appreciate my life. And I really appreciate appreciating it, if you get what I mean? :-)

I lived without that self-acceptance and appreciation and joy for so long that it meant the world to me to have found it, and I treasure and celebrate it.

There is enough in my life already. There are more books I want to read and more things I want to learn about than I am going to have time for if I live to be a hundred. And, yes, I could go out and find new things to do and experience, but, honestly, that would just be time taken away from things that satisfy me hugely.

Generally, most autists don't want to broaden their experience; they want to deepen it. They want to immerse themselves in their "special interests" to the exclusion of other things, and tend to be happiest when they feel free to get on with that uninterrupted. To an NT this can look terribly narrow and constrictive, but, to an autist, it is a kind of joy.

And when people tell us that we would really benefit from broadening our horizons and getting some balance in our lives etc (I'm not saying you're saying that, Once - I'm speaking generally too), well... .It can feel like a fish saying to a sparrow, "yes, yes, that whole flying and singing thing is all very well, and there's certainly a place for it, but you ought to incorporate some swimming into your repertoire as well; you don't know what you're missing... ."

I will learn and grow, yes, because all of us always are learning and growing - and that, too, is a joy.

You know, after I wrote my last reply to you, I felt optimistic. I said aloud to myself, like catching myself in the act of something and being surprised at it, "I'm happy!"

You know something else? I used to do that all the time before I met him, suddenly gasp aloud in surprise and wonder "I'm happy!". I did that while with him too, but, if anything, I did it more before.

[Bnonymous]

And, as to him, time will tell. If this is what he wants and he is happy and does love her, then, by the time that becomes clear, I will no longer mind. And if it isn't and he isn't and he doesn't, then the situation will resolve itself eventually. He will either be back or he won't.

And, for me, the way to handle that is to prepare for if it happens and then wait and see. Hope is not something I have to drop like a hot coal; it is something that will gradually fall away like melting snow. Each day I don't hear from him, a little bit more will thaw. Until, one day, without having even noticed it coming, I will suddenly look up and see greenery and spring. It has to fade out, gradually and gently, and that is what will happen if that is what is to be.

[Cat Familiar]

Hi Bnonymous,  you mention that you’re an Aspie. Well hello fellow Aspiegirl. I don’t think I have as many traits as I once did, but I can totally relate to being focused upon my own interests and being fatigued by too much social interaction.

I’ve learned that there are several of us Aspies here on this board and I suspect there’s a reason why we have entered into relationships with pwBPD.

For one, I believe we are more tolerant than many, due to our own sense of being different. Secondly because we are not as conventional, we are more open to wider behavioral fluctuations than most. And thirdly, because our social cues may not be as refined as others, we may overlook behavior that deviates from social norms at the beginning of the relationship.

[Ltahoe]

I’ve been through cheating before and it really hurts, I had an ex who actually left me upcold didn’t tell me where she was going or anything just left and never said a word. Of course she was cheating as she left and directly went to cohabitation with another person. The thing is you’ll never have closure. People that are like this will almost not care about your wants or needs. The best closure you’ll get is what you already know and to accept that it was screwed up and you’ll never 100% know what happened. You already stated your ex is a compulsive liar he surely won’t tell the truth about this.

You may be right in your assessment that this isn’t what he really wants. My ex that jumped right into cohabitating with someone else eventually did leave the other person fairly quickly and tried to win me back while trying to play the field at the same time. I feel like your ex is a prick and will almost get off on torturing you. His behavior shows he has no shame, getting the new woman involved in contacting you. I almost feel he wants you to sulk over him, and he’s using his new girl to dig it in.

You have a couple options here, accept you won’t get any closure and go no contact. Part of me thinks you want him back or to at least break off this new relationship for whatever reason. It doesn’t matter to me why you want to break off this relationship getting him back, just can’t stand the thought of him being with her etc. doesn’t matter. If that’s really what you want make yourself unavailable, ppl like this want what’s unavailable. He knows you’re eating out of his hands and has control of the situation. You no longer have an obligation to him as he’s left you. Make him lose control, make him think you’re done let him know he’s lost you. Show him you’re done. What’s he going to do that he’s not already doing? He’s already with someone else so it’s not like he’s not going to be like he’s going to punish you by leaving since he already has. Perhaps move on and start dating someone new, and watch him flip a 180 fast as heck. He thinks you’re still his as you’re contacting him, and most likely not seeing anyone else. He knows in his mind he can run back to you.

[Ltahoe]

Cat

Really your aspergerish? I’ve never really been diagnosed but do fit a lot of the criteria for having Aspergers.

[Cat Familiar]

Yay, Ltahoe, another member of the club! 

[Bnonymous]

Hi Cat, 

I'm sure you're right. Another factor might be that there is (in one sense only!) something rather restful to us about people with BPD, because we're not having to pick up on subtle cues in body language, tone of voice, facial expressions etc, to read them, as they do everything overtly and magnified. I found this restful.

My ex-husband (actually aspie himself) was so much harder going. Because he'd express frustrations like the majority of people; low key and veiled. If a non says "Would you pass the salt?" in a clipped tone that isn't usual for them, I might pick up that something was wrong, but I wouldn't know what. And I'd get close to tearful at feeling something was happening which I. Didn't. Understaaaaand.

BPD guy, on the hand, would be more likely, in such an instance to yell "Will you pass the motherf***ing salt already,Hell?" And that was easy. He was angry. Easy to see, no need to go into a panic of "What's happening here?" - it was obvious. He was always obvious. And that was a huge attraction to me, as an autist. Like I said, I found it restful, soothing almost.

You know, when I was with him (in his company, I mean) I would actually forget that I was autistic? I mean in a social sense (the sensory stuff would still be horrific). And no one else, in 42 years of life, has ever made me feel that way. I didn't feel strange or different or like I couldn't understand or couldn't keep up or didn't know what was expected of me etc etc - I just felt at home. I've never really had that with anyone before (in any context) and it was something I treasured. I felt very free and light.

Thanks Ltahoe.

I'm sorry you went through that.

You say

Part of me thinks you want him back or to at least break off this new relationship for whatever reason. It doesn’t matter to me why you want to break off this relationship getting him back, just can’t stand the thought of him being with her etc. doesn’t matter.

I found that interesting as it made me wonder. I think I want to know that my perceptions are not way off-base more than anything, that when I know, really know, all the way down to my core, that I am loved, then I actually am. I want to know that it is not possible to feel so absolutely emotionally certain about (and secure in) something and yet be mistaken. I want to know that something which I trust absolutely is as solid as I believe it to be. Like, if someone had told you that the ground had suddenly turned to water, it would be a huge relief to be able to step on it and find, nope, it's still the ground.

And I want him back because the trust and intimacy that we built up is incredibly valuable and not something to be thrown away lightly (yeah, I know, I kinda did that the other day). And because I love him and this really doesn't change that.

I have no doubts that what you suggest would work as a strategy. But I don't do strategies and I don't do games. I just do me. What you see is what you get me. I would rather lose him with honesty than keep him with deception.

[Ltahoe]

It does make so much sense as why we have a hard time letting ppl go. I agree with you. We know we’re different and we have trouble in social situations, we miss social cues. So if we lose our relationship it’s a lot of work to build a new one. I know that I don’t know the rules of conversation, meeting new ppl can actually turn them off to me complicating matters of finding new ppl. I feel like pwBPD can sense we are off a little too and perhaps find us appealing for that reason, perhaps they feel off and maybe hoping since we’re off too will make it work. My wife knew she was off before she met me, as she was already in therapy.  I feel like we mostly have good hearts and are really hurt when ppl betray us or use us as even though awkward at times we are sincere. I did a post last summer “my aspergers and her BPD” I kinda disappeared. Now I don’t want to hijack this thread just find this interesting.

[Bnonymous]

It is, and it's why I would get impatient if anyone told me "You'll meet someone better in time" or similar.

I'm not going to date again. That's not an emotional thing based on the hurt of betrayal and it's not a romantic "the only one for me thing" either - it's something I said to myself from the start "This is the last time - whether it works or not, it is the last time". Because the getting-to-know-you-stage is such torture, real actual torture, that it's not something I would be willing to put myself through again. I feel old and I feel ready to embrace singledom for good now.

This isn't something negative - I know it will sound that way to most people reading, but it really isn't. I don't want to do it again. I will be happier and healthier if I don't do it again. I'm glad I did it this time (even if this is where it ends) and absolutely don't regret that. But I always knew that this would be the last time, that I wouldn't have it in me to go through getting to know someone another time after this - like someone running their last marathon, knowing they are using the last of their strength and energy to do it and that they won't have another in them, and enjoying it all the more for that knowledge that it's their last big push. It's a positive choice for me not to do it again.

I have an online friend (I do do online friendships, just not face-to-face ones) who is pushing sixty now and has had no romantic or sexual encounters, not even a date, since she turned 40. Because she felt exactly as I do: it takes such an immense amount of effort and energy for her that it just wouldn't be achievable in the second half of her life. And she's happy and thriving and has never regretted the choice. I know it will be the same for me.

I hope the aspies here can understand this, even if no one else can.

[Ltahoe]

Bnonymous

Ya I understand the strategy game thing. It is a bit of a game and if you don’t want to you don’t have to. In my situation with my ex after her I did find someone who wanted something casual as we were younger at the time and both of us were upfront about it not being able to go somewhere long term. Otherwise yes I’d feel guilty about using someone by starting something I never intended to finish. Idk I just have the attitude if someone is going to eat their cake and have it too, the same rule should apply to me. I’ll eat my cake and have it too. Not saying it makes it right.  But my ex ruined her new relationship after me by being so obsessed of what I was doing, it literally destroyed her once she lost control of me.

Like you said about aspie men you know exactly what we want we are inconsiderately crude at times and seem angry but not as much as seems if you were really to ask how mad are we really. I try to explain this to my wife and I really think my tendency to ignore body language, social cues really can drive my wife nuts on top of this. I think that this can be hard on someone who finds socializing important, I wonder why my wife chose me because she really is pleasant in a social situation and is well liked. Me I’m the opposite I’m a social reject of sorts and come across as off.

I just find it interesting as Aspies and pwBPD both have trouble connecting at times. Yet we handle things so different even though inside I feel we have some of the same issues. Insecurity, needing to be loved, poor communication skills at times. In favor of the pwBPD we isolate ourselves and tie up all our emotions in them giving them the enmeshment they desire.

[Bnonymous]

Ya I understand the strategy game thing. It is a bit of a game and if you don’t want to you don’t have to.

He has been plagued with doubt and insecurity and distrust all his life. I know those are things on the inside and that I couldn't change them. But I could nevertheless give him something solid and reliable. He would doubt and distrust and feel insecure anyway, without needing any reason to, but I would, nevertheless, never give him any reason.

I don't want that to change.

I want him to know I love him and accept him and will be there, just like I always have been, if he changes his mind. I won't keep telling him that or anything (and couldn't if I wanted to, because she controls his phone). But I certainly won't try to make him doubt it.

I don't want to make him mad, even if that's mad about me. On the contrary, I want him to have the closest thing to inner peace and security with me that he is able to experience. Like he always has. And, well... Like I thought (and, insane as it may be, still think) I had with him.

"Doubt thou the stars are fire.
Doubt that the sun doth move.
Doubt truth to be a liar.
But never doubt I love."

Constancy, security, honesty. I want to give him those things always. Even if I have no contact with him again, I would never want to give him cause to doubt that I love him and will be there. Even if doing so would make him come running back to me. Because he'd be running to the wrong things and for the wrong reasons then. I want him to come back because he knows he has security here, not by making him feel insecure and rushing to have it soothed. I am struggling to explain myself properly.

[Ltahoe]

No I get it I had that half typed on a phone before I saw your last response and you replied before me so I didn’t reply to your last post even though it appears that way.

Trust me I totally get it. Sometimes I think my wife is ridiculous but at the same time I’m like if I leave my wife who am I really going to date, I’m just going to be alone. All I know is ridiculous long term relationships, and if I continue to date it’s  probably what I’ll continue to have. Considering I’m different I don’t think I’ll ever experience a normal one and part of that is me. If we did separate I would debate if I’d even attempt to date. Funny thing is I hadn’t dated in almost a year before I met my wife because of this. I just feel like healthy stable people pass me up. I’m not really their first choice as I lack good social skills, and today social status is a lot. So even women who were initially attracted kind of got turned off by my awkwardness. Idk I always liked working out so I feel like I always attract woman based on that and the shallow ones tended to overlook the aspie stuff and stick around. Lol so ya idk if I’d be done or really what I’d do cause I’m hurt by the BS but also want a partner. So ya I get it.

Plus what you’re looking for is an authentic reason for him to be with you not to win him over by creating a reaction.