Part 2: Balancing kids’ safety with legal rights

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Mod Note:  This thread is a continuation of part 1:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=334189.0

Just a (relatively) quick update on the family therapy appointment...

The family therapist started the session about 10 minutes late, explaining that she needed to go back and review the emails we had each sent over the prior couple of weeks.  It was kind of a lot of content, so she understandably wanted to have the details fresh in her mind before working with us.

Session was OK overall, with the T being clear that she didn't want to just put band-aids on each issue, but rather wanted to help us both get a chance to heal some so that we can improve the overall system.  This meant she wanted to focus in large part really cutting down on how much communicating we do between us.  A relief for me, since the PC had already given instructions that were to restrict the communications, then the family therapist had enhanced those instructions back in December, but uBPDxw kept pushing the limits on them and finding reasons/ways to try to engage with me.  Whether or not I took the bait and engaged with her directly, it was all still taking a huge toll on me.

So I'm not sure how much more clear the instructions can get now, and there is some accountability in place that if we (but really, she) can't follow these instructions the PC will be engaged to issue a directive.

All fine with me so far (aside from the unpleasantness of being in the room with her), and then the T moves to a real sensitive issue for uBPDxw:  kids communicating with the non-custodial parent.  uBPDxw got to say her piece, particularly about how bad she thinks it is for D9 to be contacting me so much.  When the T asked me my opinion, it only took a minute of me speaking before uBPDxw dysregulated and started yelling at me.

uBPDxw ended up excusing herself and left the room for a minute to try to calm down.  The T asked me if this was a common occurrence, and I was able to confirm that it was characteristic of pretty much any disagreement we had, particularly leading up to our separation.  She told me she had wanted to see where the discussion went, saying it is helpful for her to see the behavior actually happening.  So at least there's that...

uBPDxw also took the opportunity in session to bring up a couple things that had pissed her off over the past month or so, venting anger towards me about things that I thought we had already addressed.  But of course not...I had to remind myself that things are just going to keep coming back to me, because they'll never be addressed to her satisfaction.

I'm very glad that I had an appt with my own T scheduled for today.  There has been a lot to process from that session, and I'm still working on that.  At the very least, I am hoping to have some peace myself from uBPDxw's behavior, while also praying she doesn't take her ongoing frustrations out on the kids.  As far as safety, the family T is aware, D9's T is aware, and I'm working with them to monitor in case a report needs to be filed.  I still need to touch base with my L as well...

mw

[mama-wolf]

Mod Note:  This thread is a continuation of part 1:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=334189.0

Just a (relatively) quick update on the family therapy appointment...

The family therapist started the session about 10 minutes late, explaining that she needed to go back and review the emails we had each sent over the prior couple of weeks.  It was kind of a lot of content, so she understandably wanted to have the details fresh in her mind before working with us.

Session was OK overall, with the T being clear that she didn't want to just put band-aids on each issue, but rather wanted to help us both get a chance to heal some so that we can improve the overall system.  This meant she wanted to focus in large part really cutting down on how much communicating we do between us.  A relief for me, since the PC had already given instructions that were to restrict the communications, then the family therapist had enhanced those instructions back in December, but uBPDxw kept pushing the limits on them and finding reasons/ways to try to engage with me.  Whether or not I took the bait and engaged with her directly, it was all still taking a huge toll on me.

So I'm not sure how much more clear the instructions can get now, and there is some accountability in place that if we (but really, she) can't follow these instructions the PC will be engaged to issue a directive.

All fine with me so far (aside from the unpleasantness of being in the room with her), and then the T moves to a real sensitive issue for uBPDxw:  kids communicating with the non-custodial parent.  uBPDxw got to say her piece, particularly about how bad she thinks it is for D9 to be contacting me so much.  When the T asked me my opinion, it only took a minute of me speaking before uBPDxw dysregulated and started yelling at me.

uBPDxw ended up excusing herself and left the room for a minute to try to calm down.  The T asked me if this was a common occurrence, and I was able to confirm that it was characteristic of pretty much any disagreement we had, particularly leading up to our separation.  She told me she had wanted to see where the discussion went, saying it is helpful for her to see the behavior actually happening.  So at least there's that...

uBPDxw also took the opportunity in session to bring up a couple things that had pissed her off over the past month or so, venting anger towards me about things that I thought we had already addressed.  But of course not...I had to remind myself that things are just going to keep coming back to me, because they'll never be addressed to her satisfaction.

I'm very glad that I had an appt with my own T scheduled for today.  There has been a lot to process from that session, and I'm still working on that.  At the very least, I am hoping to have some peace myself from uBPDxw's behavior, while also praying she doesn't take her ongoing frustrations out on the kids.  As far as safety, the family T is aware, D9's T is aware, and I'm working with them to monitor in case a report needs to be filed.  I still need to touch base with my L as well...

mw

[Turkish]

It sounds good that the T saw her lose control like that. What are your thoughts contacting your L if you need to take action? 

[babyducks]

hi mama-wolf,

I've been following along and wanted to stop in to tell you what a great job I think you are doing managing all these difficult bits and pieces.    Give yourself a pat on the back.

I did wonder as I read, how much of D9 being painted black do you think is related to the fact that D9 is your biological daughter?    Please excuse me if I am wandering far afield but I am curious if D9 physically reminds your Ex of you?

LnL mentioned internalizing the resilient qualities that help when triggered.   I found that interesting.    Frequently I find being exposed to my Ex like being food poisoned.   My P always encouraged me to put on my emotional armor when I was exposed.   I can't claim a great deal of success with that.   What I have come to learn is that putting up emotional armor is harder than I thought.

'ducks

[mama-wolf]

What are your thoughts contacting your L if you need to take action? 

Mostly I'm thinking I want to give her a heads-up that action may be needed.  I don't think anything can happen very soon, as I'm sure a lot more documentation is going to be needed.  I have already been tracking things somewhat, but could use her guidance on how best to go about that, as well as her perspective on options.

I've been following along and wanted to stop in to tell you what a great job I think you are doing managing all these difficult bits and pieces.    Give yourself a pat on the back.

Thank you, 'ducks! 

I did wonder as I read, how much of D9 being painted black do you think is related to the fact that D9 is your biological daughter?    Please excuse me if I am wandering far afield but I am curious if D9 physically reminds your Ex of you?

I think there probably is some element of this, but I don't think it's so much physical appearance as it is personality, interest, and D9's obvious love and affection towards me--in sharp contrast to her developing hatred of uBPDxw.  D9 also has a lot of similarities to my mom, who uBPDxw hates, and to my sister, who uBPDxw apparently adores and misses terribly (but my sister wants nothing to do with her).

LnL mentioned internalizing the resilient qualities that help when triggered.   I found that interesting.    Frequently I find being exposed to my Ex like being food poisoned.   My P always encouraged me to put on my emotional armor when I was exposed.   I can't claim a great deal of success with that.   What I have come to learn is that putting up emotional armor is harder than I thought.

Yes, I have a tendency to go on emotional lockdown when I'm around my ex.  It's exhausting, and the stuff she says and does still manages to ooze through the seams in the armor.  It will be interesting to see how the next couple of weeks go with much more limited contact.

mw

[zachira]

I wanted to second Babyducks' comments about what a great job you are doing. You are doing everything possible to keep your children safe and setting the stage for getting more custody if the right time comes. We do have members in gay marriages/relationships with children from time to time, and it is more challenging for many reasons when custody is being decided. Thank you for helping us better understand the specific steps a gay couple may have to take to have better control over the custody arrangements if the couple were to separate/divorce, and how these arrangements can affect changing custody after a separation/divorce has been finalized.

[livednlearned]

I'm not sure how much more clear the instructions can get now, and there is some accountability in place that if we (but really, she) can't follow these instructions the PC will be engaged to issue a directive.

Is a directive something that gets entered legally? I think PCs have different levels of authority depending on the state where you live so I'm curious what kind of directive could be ordered. Would you have any input in that?

When the T asked me my opinion, it only took a minute of me speaking before uBPDxw dysregulated and started yelling at me.

I'm sorry that you continue to be on the receiving end of her verbal abuse mama-wolf.

She told me she had wanted to see where the discussion went, saying it is helpful for her to see the behavior actually happening.  So at least there's that...

How frustrating to have to be part of that, to have to prove what you have lived through. Like you said, tho, the behaviors are being witnessed first hand by third-party professionals. That can go a long way in helping with any custody modification. Especially if the PC has been given permission to communicate with the therapists involved.

At the very least, I am hoping to have some peace myself from uBPDxw's behavior, while also praying she doesn't take her ongoing frustrations out on the kids.  As far as safety, the family T is aware, D9's T is aware, and I'm working with them to monitor in case a report needs to be filed.  I still need to touch base with my L as well...

You mention being in NC. There is a  N.C. Gen.Stat. § 50–90 that defines high-conflict. It might be worth asking your L if you are reaching a definition for high-conflict in the eyes of the court and if so, what that means going forward. I seem to recall that shorthand was used to characterize my case and give it legal context. It seemed to mark a change in how our case was handled once that designation was assigned.

[takingandsending]

Hi mama-wolf.

I can only echo what lnl, ducks and zacharia have said, you are doing a great job of maintaining thoughtful consideration of what's best for your children and even your xw, despite being under attack and managing the fear of your children's security and health. It's truly monumental, life work. I wish it were easier.

I am glad that the family T got to witness the type of dysregulation that your D9 and S6 experience while with their other mom. I'd keep working on developing and demonstrating that emotional resilience to your kids. Over time, that will mean the most, whether or not you are able to secure more custody time in court.

[mama-wolf]

Thank you all for the support...

Is a directive something that gets entered legally? I think PCs have different levels of authority depending on the state where you live so I'm curious what kind of directive could be ordered. Would you have any input in that?

Yes, a directive from the PC carries the weight of a court order here.  Now, what that directive might look like, I have no idea...but it would at least be documentation of ongoing conflict and a need for PC involvement.

You mention being in NC. There is a  N.C. Gen.Stat. § 50–90 that defines high-conflict. It might be worth asking your L if you are reaching a definition for high-conflict in the eyes of the court and if so, what that means going forward. I seem to recall that shorthand was used to characterize my case and give it legal context. It seemed to mark a change in how our case was handled once that designation was assigned.

It is my understanding that in order to have a PC appointed by the court, we had to qualify as high-conflict.  I was not aware of this at the time when I pushed to have a PC during mediation...I had just read about them and felt it was a good idea in our case with a 50/50 split.  I think both attorneys and the mediator all recognized that there would be no problem meeting the statutory requirement.

I didn't find out about the statute until the family therapist was explaining this to us--in the context of there being a reason we are working with a PC and with her.  uBPDxw thought it was only because I insisted on it, which was ultimately true I suppose, but it helped the family therapist get through to her that there is more to it than that.

mw

[formflier]

Hey MW
 
I want to add my voice to those giving you a big  .  

It's good for professionals to see and document exactly what you have known for a while.

Have you been able to have conversations with your T about balancing the value of gathering more "data", which would require things to continue, versus taking some sort of legal action along the lines of "change of circumstances"?

If you could draw a graph of dysfunctional behavior by your ex, would it be a steady increase since the split or has it spiked recently?

Keep up the good work!

FF

[mama-wolf]

Thanks FF!

Have you been able to have conversations with your T about balancing the value of gathering more "data", which would require things to continue, versus taking some sort of legal action along the lines of "change of circumstances"?

Yes, my T and I have discussed getting some clarity around that threshold where it's time to move forward to push for the necessary changes.  I'm still working on this with the family therapist as well.

If you could draw a graph of dysfunctional behavior by your ex, would it be a steady increase since the split or has it spiked recently?

I'd say it has been a steady increase in dysfunctional behavior.  My T actually brought this up in session on Tuesday, saying from her perspective uBPDxw's behavior is trending worse, and I would agree.  uBPDxw has historically been able to control things...either outright, or after repeatedly bringing them up and wearing me down.   But now there are barriers in place to protect me from that behavior and the more she realizes this, the more dysfunctional her behavior becomes.

My T said she anticipates that uBPDxw will implode at some point, which of course has me worried about impact to the kids.  My T doesn't think she would hurt the kids, but she's also not in a very good place to effectively take care of them in that case.  So I wait, and I watch, and I prepare.

mw

[formflier]

   But now there are barriers in place to protect me from that behavior and the more she realizes this, the more dysfunctional her behavior becomes.

OK...I haven't been as familiar with your story in the last few months as I used to be.  But what I quoted was EXACTLY my assumption. 

In addition your T seems to see where the trend is going.. "implosion".  I would agree.

There is a conundrum I see.  Short game versus long game. 

Short game:  How to protect your kids from an implosion?

Long game:  Impact of implosion on parenting time/influence of your ex?

Do you see the conundrum?  What do you think about it?

FF 

[mama-wolf]

Do you see the conundrum?  What do you think about it?

At the base of it, and in keeping with the advice of my T, I think I have to focus on what I can control.  I also need to trust the professionals I have put in place to help me protect my children in the short term, while guiding me in understanding and planning for the long-term implications.

mw

[livednlearned]

My T said she anticipates that uBPDxw will implode at some point, which of course has me worried about impact to the kids.

Ooof. That is hard to hear. Waiting for the other shoe to drop in our situations is not for the faint of heart. It takes a lot of strength and courage to hear what your T is saying and know it's true. I remember the constant dread thinking that things would get worse before they got better and it takes a toll. Big hug to you mama-wolf 

Do your kids have a sense of what to do if there's any kind of emergency?

[mama-wolf]

Thanks so much, LnL...I try not to let it get to me, but you are spot-on that it's really hard to hear that from a clinical professional.

Do your kids have a sense of what to do if there's any kind of emergency?

I think I have to tread very carefully here on coaching them in what to do.  I mean, D9 knows how to call 911 on a cell phone in emergency mode, and I can work with S6 on that as well.  But recognizing when it's appropriate to do so when it's not an obvious physical accident or injury?  Or what if they can't get access to uBPDxw's phone?  There is no land line at her house (or mine).  I know I can't quite come out and say "if Mom starts to act crazy, or you don't feel safe, you can call the police" or "if you can't get to a phone, you can run away to a neighbor's house..."

I know there are levels of urgency that could be reached prior to needing to call the police, and that's even more tricky.  If D9 were to call me on FaceTime (as she frequently does), but she were distraught and says she's scared by uBPDxw's behavior...then what do I do in that case?  Short of calling the police myself, I don't think there is much I could do, and anything I did would probably not go over well--not that this would stop me...only acknowledging that there would be aftermath to deal with.

Thank you for bringing up this specific question!  Definitely something to discuss further with the family therapist, and suggestions from this community are also welcome.

mw

[formflier]

Can your T or your children's T do the coaching.  I agree the coaching shouldn't come from you, yet it seems they DO need to get some guidance about what is extreme behavior and what to do.

Does your children's T know about the "chair throwing thing"?  That might be a place to start.

FF

[zachira]

How difficult and sad it is for you to have to worry that your children are not safe when with their other mother. You can help your children to feel safer by continuing to build their inner sense of security while they are with you as you are doing now. It is being able to look inside ourselves and listen to what we feel that creates security and successful happy adults. Those that live with a false self blame the outside world and are unable to draw from within to stabilize themselves in times of emotional upheaval. I was ignored and mistreated in my family growing up, and the love and care I received from others outside my immediate family, sometimes five minutes from a family friend, made all the difference in the world. Your children are old enough that you can talk to them about unsafe people and what to do when they feel uncomfortable and scared of another person. It is important to let your children know that the way their other mom behaves at times is not okay and you will always want them to tell you if anything happens at her house that makes them feel uncomfortable.

[livednlearned]

I understand the delicacy about how to phrase things.

In my situation, I talked in general terms about what S11 might do if something happened at either house, even if it was something like coming home from school and his key didn't work. Like which neighbors to go to, or how it's ok to not know if something is an emergency, that if he isn't sure he can call 911 and caring adults will help him figure that out. I also found opportunities watching kids' shows together to ask him what he might do in that situation. What was happening with those kids and what did S11 think about how they handled it? What would he do in the same situation?

And contrary to what a kid unaccustomed to conflict might feel, S11 was not phased talking about the issue of safety for himself.

When n/BPDx had his psychotic episode during custodial time with S11, it happened at night when S11 was in bed. S11 was immobilized. He wanted to use his phone but was worried that if he moved his dad would notice and bring the full force of his instability on S11. Both the T and I worked with him to confirm that he was clever and brave and it was the right response. There is interesting research about PTSD and the freeze response when kids feel immobilized during a dangerous situation so with S11 we tried to reframe the incident so he didn't feel powerless and instead recognized how smart he was to stay put.

In retrospect, I wish I had offered that as a possible solution. Sometimes when you're a kid, the best thing is to make yourself small and invisible, and that's ok. It's a different way of helping kids stay safe.

My concerns involved n/BPDx passing out or in some way becoming incapacitated while caring for S11. In retrospect, the more likely scenario was n/BPDx acting unstable in front of S11 and I hadn't done as good a job preparing him for something like that. I think it helped him to have a plan for when things when off the rails, but I wish he also had a plan for keeping himself safe until the danger or instability had passed.

It's great that your kids have Ts who can help with this if it's something you decide to go forward with.

[mama-wolf]

Can your T or your children's T do the coaching. 

Does your children's T know about the "chair throwing thing"?  That might be a place to start.

Yes and yes...D9's T and the family T are both aware of the chair incident, and I will specifically raise the question of making sure the kids know what to do if they need help.

You can help your children to feel safer by continuing to build their inner sense of security while they are with you as you are doing now.

It is important to let your children know that the way their other mom behaves at times is not okay and you will always want them to tell you if anything happens at her house that makes them feel uncomfortable.

Absolutely, zachira, and thank you.  I try to make sure they feel safe, loved, and accepted when they are with me.  Sometimes I don't feel like it's enough, but it seems like all I can do.  D9 has said several times that uBPDxw's behavior is never going to change, so it's OK, and I have told her very firmly that it's not OK.

D9 was pretty upset on Saturday evening and I think it was the first time she ever made reference to suicide.  While texting a lot of angry statements about how terrible uBPDxw is and how much she hates being at uBPDxw's house, she said "I wish I could kill myself."  I know that's not the same as a statement of intent, and she does have a tendency to be pretty dramatic, but it really got to me.  She was in a better place by the next morning, but I'm still struggling with it.

In my situation, I talked in general terms about what S11 might do if something happened at either house

And contrary to what a kid unaccustomed to conflict might feel, S11 was not phased talking about the issue of safety for himself.

LnL, I can't thank you enough for sharing your approach and the experience your S11 had.  This is so helpful to me in thinking about how to approach the conversation both with the kids and the Ts.  Thanks again!

mw