Surprise visit from my family...Part 2

[stolencrumbs]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=334876.0

No suicide threats this weekend, but there was a complete meltdown on Friday night. It started with texts about a problem with a sink drain (still not completely sure there was actually a problem, but I treated it as if there was.) I offered to come fix it that night or the next day. The texts then morphed into being about treating her like she doesn't exist. I did not respond to those. Then that turned into phone calls. I ignored the first one. That apparently prompted her to get in her car to drive down to the hotel. She called again while she was in the car and I answered. She was screaming/crying/etc. She was threatening to wreck the car, preferably by smashing it into my car or my mom's car. She then informs me that she is at the hotel. So I went outside. I got in the car with her, thinking she would park and yell at me some. Instead she takes off. She's still screaming and crying and driving dangerously. Took me a few seconds to get my head around the danger of the situation. A good way to practice staying calm and not invalidating her in any way, since doing so risked a car crash. Anyway, she refused to pull over, but, after lots of screaming, did start driving more normally. She took me back to the hotel after driving around for about 30 minutes, then she left. She did text later that night and thank me for letting her express her emotions. Um, yeah, you're welcome? I did not hear from her on Saturday, and I haven't heard from her today. Not sure what I am in store for now.

It was good to see my parents, and the bulk of our time together was drama free. I did apologize to them and tried to validate how they felt, and I tried to get them to put the blame for my not seeing them more on me and not just villainize my wife. I don't think they're there yet. I guess I hope that the best apology and explanation will be a change in my behavior and how I handle my relationship with them going forward.

[GaGrl]

Sometimes threats aren't explicit suicide threats yet should be treated that way. Threatening to crash her car into yours? That is beyond self-help and closer the threats of suicide or harm to you.

What have you done in the past when she poses these threats?

In hindsight, could you have called 911 from the car and tell them you are in a dangerous situation?

What you are accepting as normal is not normal behavior.

[stolencrumbs]

Sometimes threats aren't explicit suicide threats yet should be treated that way. Threatening to crash her car into yours? That is beyond self-help and closer the threats of suicide or harm to you.

What have you done in the past when she poses these threats?

In hindsight, could you have called 911 from the car and tell them you are in a dangerous situation?

What you are accepting as normal is not normal behavior.

I don’t mean to minimize it. It was serious, and scary. We only live a couple of miles from the hotel, so there wasn’t much time between the first call and her showing up. Once in the car, calling 911 seemed like a dangerous escalation. By the time she came back, she was significantly calmer. I think the lesson is to not get in the car with her when she is upset, and to call 911 from somewhere other than inside the car if necessary.

[Cat Familiar]

It was good to see my parents, and the bulk of our time together was drama free. I did apologize to them and tried to validate how they felt, and I tried to get them to put the blame for my not seeing them more on me and not just villainize my wife. I don't think they're there yet. I guess I hope that the best apology and explanation will be a change in my behavior and how I handle my relationship with them going forward.

Let's not validate the invalid. The truth is it is your wife who has made things difficult for them to visit. Certainly you have supported her in that.

[babyducks]

 

I am glad you had a nice visit with your parents.

She did text later that night and thank me for letting her express her emotions. Um, yeah, you're welcome?

Hmmmm.     How about "I was deeply concerned about your safety and the safety of others driving in the vicinity.   I want to let you know that in the future I won't be getting in the car with you in situations like that.    And that I will be calling 911 if I feel people or property is at risk."

Serious question.

I'd like to pick up on something Gagrl said:

 

What you are accepting as normal is not normal behavior.

We touched on this upstream somewhere.    Conflating normal and abnormal behaviors.   It's popped up a couple of times I think.   It's interesting.    Kind of like a puzzle.    Why do you think you tolerate this level of chaos?

[GaGrl]

I agree that not getting in the car when she is in that state is the right thing to do. In fact, if cars are frequently involved in her rages, you might have a boundary that only you will be behind the wheel.

On the normal/ not normal question -- how do you think you got to the point of considering and accepting her behaviors?

[stolencrumbs]

So I think there are two slightly different questions. One is how I came to tolerate this behavior. The other is why I tolerate it.

I think the actual history of it is that it was a pretty gradual escalation, and I become accustomed to some level of dysfunction, and that level gradually increased over time. I think at most steps I recognized that it was not normal. I remember very early on in our relationship--15 year ago or so--her storming out after an argument and threatening to just drive away and never come back. I would apologize and convince her to say. I remember thinking at the time that this was not normal. But then it would stop. I remember about twelve years ago she smashed a framed photograph I gave her and yelled at me that it was all my fault. Shortly thereafter, she stopped taking a bunch of medication that she had been prescribed, and I chalked it all up to depression and the weird mix of medication she was on. And things got better for some period of time. Then we moved and things got exponentially worse. I feel like there were long periods of time where I got used to abnormal behavior, and then periods where things normalized, and then escalations that I got accustomed to, and so on.

That's the how. Why was I okay with this? I don't really know. I think part of it is that I thought that marriages just worked out. That once people committed to each other, things just worked out. My parents have been married for 50 years. My brother married his high school girlfriend, and they've now been married for 23 years. I just thought that was it. You get married, and that's that.

And for whatever reason, I tend to think I am at fault for things that go wrong. When I get evaluations from students, I automatically assume the negative ones are because I messed up, and that there's something I can do better. And I try to do better. I have never used the same syllabus twice in 15 years of teaching (that's four classes a semester, so about 120 different classes), because I always think I can do better. And I think that carries over to relationships. Whatever my wife's behavior is, I can see things that I have done wrong, and I think, okay, I can do better in this aspect, or that aspect, and if I do better, things will be better. That is obviously not serving me very well in my relationship with my wife, or maybe the ways I have tried to do better are not the right ways. But I think that mindset is at least part of what has gotten me in trouble.

I think the puzzle analogy is interesting. I like puzzles. I've pretty much spent my professional life trying to solve puzzles. That's philosophy. So I think I sometimes think of my relationship as a puzzle that I need to figure out how to solve. I don't like giving up on puzzles. I want to figure them out. I tend to think they can be figured out. I suspect that plays a role.

I'm open to any suggestions of what else is going on with me. There are clearly things that are not working very well for me, and puzzles that I am not very good at solving.

[babyducks]

Hi Stolencrumbs,

I can see the gradual escalation, the slow normalization and getting accustomed to things.    That does seem to play a large role in your current climate.   

Let me first say I am always sensitive to the fact there is no tone of voice in this medium.    even with emoticons, it's hard to convey meaning.    So I want to be clear that I am not picking at you or on you.    I do want to be able to support you here on this site.

Here is what I observe from the other end of the internet.   Your wife runs over your boundaries like a tank.   You report that with two or three jokes and one self deprecating remark.  and with a curious lack of your own emotion.  you report your wife's emotion with more detail than your own.   you move your boundary.   under the assumption that your wife's view point has more credibility than your own.

so yes I can see how both of you are responsible for your current climate.   Still I would say I see that responsibility playing out differently.

If philosophy is questioning and looking at things from every possible different angle, I can see how that is a detriment to your present situation.    If in philosophy every argument is assumed to have the same level of merit, and you bring that assumption home with you, I think that creates a pickle.

I think it was Ovid that said total perspective is an optical illusion.

And for whatever reason, I tend to think I am at fault for things that go wrong. When I get evaluations from students, I automatically assume the negative ones are because I messed up, and that there's something I can do better.

If the assumption is the negative evaluations come from you messing up, that, I believe is an optical illusion.   The negative evaluation can come from multiple thought lines.    and I kind of doubt college students are thoughtful critics. 
 

Whatever my wife's behavior is, I can see things that I have done wrong, and I think, okay, I can do better in this aspect, or that aspect, and if I do better, things will be better.

I struggled with this too.   My Ex had a positive genius for finding one germ of truth, one atom of accuracy in her criticisms of me.    and I would take it on board and attempt to do better.    which was okay.   but where I went astray was in how much I allowed her to over write my reality.   how much I allowed her to define what was 'wrong' or what was 'better'.   I get to define what is right and wrong for me.    I get to define what is my best behavior.    Not her.

I don't believe your students are correct in their negative evaluations.   I think you are a good professor albeit not a perfect one.

I don't think your wife is correct in her negative evaluations.   I think continuingly assuming that her evaluations out weight your own internal decisions and judgments is what is getting you jammed up.   Not all truths are equal.

your wife found a way to interrupt your time with your parents and pull the attention back to her.   there might have been a clogged drain.   regardless of the drain,   a household problem does not (IMHO) carry more importance than your time with your family.    she came right through your boundary.    you rewarded that by taking her phone call, and then rewarded dangerous behavior by getting into the car with her after she made a threat.   She got what she wanted.   your attention and a vent for her emotion.     It all went down with split second timing.   It always does.   It did with my Ex too.    The dysfunction raised it's ugly head and suddenly things were going 100 miles an hour.

I would suggest that a possible path forward is to continue to detach from her dysfunctional behavior and cementing your own boundaries in place.

respectfully
'ducks

[Notwendy]

I struggled with this too.   My Ex had a positive genius for finding one germ of truth, one atom of accuracy in her criticisms of me.    and I would take it on board and attempt to do better.    which was okay.   but where I went astray was in how much I allowed her to over write my reality.   how much I allowed her to define what was 'wrong' or what was 'better'.   I get to define what is right and wrong for me.    I get to define what is my best behavior.    Not her.

I don't believe your students are correct in their negative evaluations.   I think you are a good professor albeit not a perfect one.

I would suggest that a possible path forward is to continue to detach from her dysfunctional behavior and cementing your own boundaries in place.

respectfully
'ducks

I can relate to this. My H is able to present a logical argument with enough of a kernel of truth, that I believed him and bought into his reality about me - in the moment- because when he was not upset, he would not say the kind of things he did when he was.

I also believed I could do better and tried. This escalation of effort actually reinforced the situation.

Now, I think about comments in context with what I know about myself. Sometimes I could see that the logical argument was built on an illogical premise- some perceived slight. If feelings are facts, they can seem real at the time. "You don't care about me because you didn't buy my favorite soda at the store" Reality: they were out of it at the time.

Besides the incident with the car and dangerous driving- I think you did well to stick to your decision to meet your parents. Your wife's behavior was due to her inability to handle her own feelings about it- and she hoped to get you to not see your parents to "fix" the feelings. But you did nothing wrong to see them and it was her job to manage her own feelings about it.

[formflier]

I also want to convey the thought that I'm not picking on you.  Instead trying to emphasize very important points.

You need to broaden the "definition" of danger to herself or others that will trigger you to call 911.

You also may want to call your local sheriff and ask if they support "text to 911".  Perhaps that is a less obvious way for you to make contact.

Hang in there.  Can you tell us about your visit with your parents?


FF

[babyducks]

When I was first here,  a new member,  Skip said to me,  "don't add volatility to an already volatile relationship ".

I really had to work and look for how I was adding volatility.

I eventually saw that me chasing her emotion,  me over responding to her added volatility.

NotWendy is correct.  Think about these comments in context.  In context of what is reasonable.  In context of point of origin.

[Notwendy]

I want to mention connecting with people.  I think pwBPD have difficulty making these deep connections. I also think the drama of the dysfunctional interactions is a substitute for that. Sex is an obvious intense connection and it is interesting that BPD relationships often start with intense sexuality- but then, when it comes to emotional intimacy- the drama starts.

I think they want it, but can't do it, so the drama is a way to have emotionally intense focus on each other.

The issues they have with family members and friends may be partly due to that. Even if they are not romantic/sexual- they can be emotionally intimate and this might be triggering to someone with BPD who feels jealous that they can't connect with you that way- not because you are being unfaithful but because they are unable to but they still want this attention from you.

I've always felt my H was not able to make deep emotional connections. I think he is deeply attached but keeps a guard up. The incidence with the car reminded me of a situation that could be similar. My H doesn't have issues with me seeing my family but he has had issues with attention I pay to friends. It made no sense to me- none of them were romantic connections or in any way a threat to the marriage. Most were female.

I had the chance to see a childhood friend who I hadn't seen in years. We arranged to get together as families- spouses, kids. We were close friends and grew up together.  There has never been anything romantic between us. On the way there, my H was upset and  driving like a maniac. It was scary. Afterwards, he blew up at me. I was so confused. How was this, in any way, a violation of the marriage?

It was the connection we had. My H saw it, and it upset him. I wasn't walking on eggshells with this guy. My H could see that. It bothered him.

This was a change I decided to make- to stop isolating myself from people I cared about. The way I managed these potential issues before was to self isolate so to not upset him, but that was bad for me. We've met up with this friend and his family a few more times. My H doesn't see him as a threat now. My H's fear is that I would meet someone I like more than him. I haven't. By seeing friends- and the fear not happening, it has actually decreased the issues. By avoiding doing this- the fear wasn't challenged by reality.

This is why I think it is important to not isolate and to keep your connections to family and friends. I think it's important to have boundaries with these situations and by having them, it is possible to diminish the need to give in to our SO's unproven fears.

[stolencrumbs]

I would suggest that a possible path forward is to continue to detach from her dysfunctional behavior and cementing your own boundaries in place.

don't add volatility to an already volatile relationship

I agree with both of these statements. It is sometimes hard for me to get a picture of what that looks like in practice.

It appears that the weeks of relative calm are over for now. I got 30+ texts last night. I'm a coward. I have no character. I just  on her. etc. And her new line is that since nobody bothered to consider her or do the right thing this past weekend, she no longer feels bound by an ethical concerns. She can text away. Yell, scream, threaten, and that's somehow now justified. So those were the texts last night. Today she sent an email that just said she was sorry for being upset.

I don't know what to do with that. I am better at not responding to the texts and emails when she is out of control. But then what do I do the next day? What is or isn't adding volatility? My normal response would be to just email and ask to see her or come over or if there is anything I can do. This doesn't work. What she seems to want is some kind of over-the-top apology and effort to make amends for hurting her so badly. This seems like chasing her emotion. I can not respond at all. I imagine that ends with volatility.

And I guess I worry that detaching for dysfunctional behavior ends up looking the same as detaching from her completely.

[stolencrumbs]

I want to mention connecting with people.  I think pwBPD have difficulty making these deep connections. I also think the drama of the dysfunctional interactions is a substitute for that. Sex is an obvious intense connection and it is interesting that BPD relationships often start with intense sexuality- but then, when it comes to emotional intimacy- the drama starts.

I think they want it, but can't do it, so the drama is a way to have emotionally intense focus on each other.

The issues they have with family members and friends may be partly due to that. Even if they are not romantic/sexual- they can be emotionally intimate and this might be triggering to someone with BPD who feels jealous that they can't connect with you that way- not because you are being unfaithful but because they are unable to but they still want this attention from you.

I've always felt my H was not able to make deep emotional connections. I think he is deeply attached but keeps a guard up. The incidence with the car reminded me of a situation that could be similar. My H doesn't have issues with me seeing my family but he has had issues with attention I pay to friends. It made no sense to me- none of them were romantic connections or in any way a threat to the marriage. Most were female.

I had the chance to see a childhood friend who I hadn't seen in years. We arranged to get together as families- spouses, kids. We were close friends and grew up together.  There has never been anything romantic between us. On the way there, my H was upset and  driving like a maniac. It was scary. Afterwards, he blew up at me. I was so confused. How was this, in any way, a violation of the marriage?

It was the connection we had. My H saw it, and it upset him. I wasn't walking on eggshells with this guy. My H could see that. It bothered him.

This was a change I decided to make- to stop isolating myself from people I cared about. The way I managed these potential issues before was to self isolate so to not upset him, but that was bad for me. We've met up with this friend and his family a few more times. My H doesn't see him as a threat now. My H's fear is that I would meet someone I like more than him. I haven't. By seeing friends- and the fear not happening, it has actually decreased the issues. By avoiding doing this- the fear wasn't challenged by reality.

This is why I think it is important to not isolate and to keep your connections to family and friends. I think it's important to have boundaries with these situations and by having them, it is possible to diminish the need to give in to our SO's unproven fears.

I agree that maintaining connections is important. I think for my wife the main issue is feeling excluded. She makes comments all the time about my "real family" and how she isn't my real family. I think she sees how close we are and she feels on the outside of that, and she has no relationships with her own family that are like that. I think the same thing happens with friends. And this has all gotten worse since I have not been living at home. She doesn't hear about or know what's going on with any of my friends or my family. She doesn't want to hear about any of it because she isn't part of it. So she just ignores it. Then when there is something I want to do with a friend or with family, she is confronted with the fact that I have these connections to other people that matter to me, and she feels left out and gets upset. It now feels like pretty much all of my relationships other than with her exist in some parallel universe. None of my friends really know her. My family doesn't really know her. People don't know us as a couple. They just know me. This makes her feel more isolated from me and more left out. I think it is another really bad consequence for our relationship of my not living at home. There are now two separate worlds that will have to come back together if we ever live together again.

[I Am Redeemed]

I think the puzzle analogy is interesting. I like puzzles. I've pretty much spent my professional life trying to solve puzzles. That's philosophy. So I think I sometimes think of my relationship as a puzzle that I need to figure out how to solve. I don't like giving up on puzzles. I want to figure them out. I tend to think they can be figured out. I suspect that plays a role.

I'm open to any suggestions of what else is going on with me. There are clearly things that are not working very well for me, and puzzles that I am not very good at solving.

I understand this kind of thinking. I fell into the same trap with my ex, thinking that it was all my responsibility to figure out a formula that would solve the problems with the relationship.

The fault in that thinking is that one person has the responsibility, let alone the power, to solve the relationship puzzle as a whole. You can't. Even if you mastered every single tool and practice that exists under the son, you still have only a half-solved puzzle, because a relationship requires the effort of two. Not one. No matter what your wife would have you believe, it is not up to you to figure out how to put her puzzle pieces in place.

[Notwendy]

Stolencrumbs- it's an interesting progression for us too. We met as students and our worlds - friends, interests, overlapped, so we had many mutual friends. Once we left the school world, he made a line between his world and mine. I worked but he was the chief wage earner. He used this argument to have little to do with me and the kids. He didn't want me around his job. I spent most of my time with the kids and other parents. I didn't know any of his co-workers.

He has no close friends. He likes to do his hobbies with other guys but they don't relate on an intimate basis. They may play golf and talk about the weather or whatever but nothing close. I don't even know his friends. I have my other "mom" friends and work aquaintances. I'm close to some of my family members ( on my dad's side) and some childhood friends who I grew up with. We have no couple friends and don't socialize together. He's made it difficult to do this- either says he's too busy or has had meldowns ( like the one I described) making it so unpleasant I'd rather socialize alone. However, he also has this fear I will meet someone I like better if I do and doesn't like it when I do. I haven't cheated or given him a reason to think this.

I think this is by design ( his, not mine). I don't think he's capable of more than a superficial friendship with anyone. He is simply too guarded. I'm also done trying for one as it just fails every time.

It used to puzzle me that he got upset at my connection to friends. Even if I am on the phone talking to a female friend it irks him. I don't have male friends who I talk to like that- I have boundaries on that but a couple of guys I grew up with are lifetime friends- like family. I would not just call them up to chat unless there was an unusual specific reason. We get together in family groups. Growing up, I didn't get much affirmation or attention from my parents and my friends and their parents were a substitute family for me and so I formed attachments to them that I don't want to let go of.

My H's family has it's issues but not as obviously severe as mine. They are caring but not close. They don't talk about anything personal. It seems to be a family trait.

Observing my parents- they had mutual friends. My father also had a rich professional life and lots of colleagues he enjoyed. My mother's friend group is a bit odd. She tends to stick to people who don't know her well and who she can impress with her "persona".

My H also has a "persona" and I wonder if  this is one reason we don't have mutual friends. It would be obvious to me. I did attend a business meeting with him a while back and when he was talking to a friend thought " who is this person?" My H wasn't acting like himself to me.

 She and my father did socialize at first, but over time she became more reclusive, refusing to attend his business functions. We can't have anyone over because she dysregulates. She and my father's family disliked each other from the get go and she has avoided doing things with them. They saw right through her from the beginning. She avoids anyone who she thinks can do this.

[babyducks]

here is how this might look in practice.    tweak it into your own words.

It appears that the weeks of relative calm are over for now. I got 30+ texts last night. I'm a coward.

I won't continue in a conversation with disrespect and name calling between us.     I am turning off my phone now.

I have no character.

I don't accept that and I don't want to fight with you about it.   I will talk to you tomorrow.

I just  on her. etc.

This is not at all how I view what happened.     If you are ready to listen to my thoughts I can share them.

nobody bothered to consider her or do the right thing this past weekend, she no longer feels bound by an ethical concerns.

Okay this one kind of stumps me,  I would go with some version of:

Since we have not been living together or spending time together it is rather difficult to figure out how to appropriately include you in my plans. 

Today she sent an email that just said she was sorry for being upset.

I really appreciate the apology.    I don't like what our communications have become.    Are you willing to sit down with your therapist and myself and talk about how to communicate better?

. But then what do I do the next day? What is or isn't adding volatility? My normal response would be to just email and ask to see her or come over or if there is anything I can do. This doesn't work. What she seems to want is some kind of over-the-top apology and effort to make amends for hurting her so badly. This seems like chasing her emotion. I can not respond at all. I imagine that ends with volatility.

Adding volatility is what Not Wendy said :"I also believed I could do better and tried. This escalation of effort actually reinforced the situation. "   You did not hurt her,  so you don't owe an over the top apology or amends.    what you can do is turn this around and give her options.

SC:   so are you saying that when my parents come to visit next month you want to be included in our plans?
SCW:   I will never be in the same room with them again after the way you've treated me.
SC:   well okay if that's what you have decided to do.    Still I think you could have a nice time if you want to come along.

etc etc

And I guess I worry that detaching for dysfunctional behavior ends up looking the same as detaching from her completely.

my experience has been that set clear and firm and consistent boundaries increased the level of calm in the relationship.   it helped me not be overly identified with my Ex's thinking.    It created more stability not less.

[formflier]

Since we have not been living together or spending time together it is rather difficult to figure out how to appropriately include you in my plans. 
 

This is good response.  Another good response might be to ask a question.  "Oh my..well..so how do you propose we do this next time?"

What I took her original statement to be is some ominous thing about "I'm not going to be bound by ethical constraints in the future."  (now you will really hear me roar!)

There is also another option.  Just flat out say you have no idea how to respond to something. Then say perhaps you can think about it a while and hopefully respond later.  (which ends it..because they are looking for immediate payoff.

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Thanks 'ducks. That is really helpful.

ff, yes, I took that statement to be an ominous warning that I am now going to get her fury untethered from any ethical concerns she might've had. I usually go with some version of your last option. It ends my part, at least. It doesn't end her part.

We are definitely back in the endless texts all night long territory. It sure seems like she more or less understands what is going on. Most of the night tonight I've gotten some version of her expressing how much she hurts, and then asking/screaming (well, all caps texting)/admonishing me for not doing something to make the pain she feels go away. I don't humble myself. I don't make any grand gestures. I don't beg for forgiveness. I don't do anything to heal her heart. She is in pain. I'm supposed to make that pain go away. I get that I can't do that. I get that, even if I could, doing so would not actually help in the long run. She needs to be able to handle her own emotions. That seems right, but man that's hard. She sees it happening, and she is pretty much right about what she is saying. I wouldn't put it in her terms, but yeah, I'm not doing very much, or at least not the things she wants, to try to make the pain she feels go away. I'm certainly not trying to make it worse, as she claims, but I'm not trying to make it go away, either. That's hard.

Her expectation is that I will at least try to do something to make her feel better. It's like she sits around waiting, and at some point realizes I'm not going to do anything, and then goes off the rails. I just disappoint her over and over again. I'm trying to keep the bigger picture in mind. Also trying to keep in mind something my T told me really early on--it is very, very unlikely that I'm going to look like the good guy in my wife's eyes. Changes need to be made, I'm the one that needs to make them, and she's not going to like them. That doesn't mean I'm not doing the right thing. It sure doesn't feel like I am, though.

[Notwendy]

Not jumping to ease her pain ( or at least try) is not rescuing and that is an uncomfortable role for you. You've been part of the pattern. Maybe it would help to put this kind of rescuing in context.

When we rescue someone in the dysfunctional sense, it appears we are being the good guy. We make them feel better and that makes us feel better. But what we are actually doing is harmful and selfish. We are taking away their opportunity to learn to self soothe. We are actually rescuing ourselves ( yes one person can take all three Karpman roles with themselves) from our own discomfort of seeing them uncomfortable and blaming us.

Once I saw the role of rescuer as selfish and not helping them, it was easier to do it. The discomfort you are feeling is your own bad feelings. You have been fixing them by rescuing your wife- that's using her to make yourself feel better. This is an opportunity to learn better self soothing skills. In these types of relationships both partners tend to have poor self regulating skills and so use this pattern ( and each other) to manage their feelings.

With practice, it can get better- potentially for both of you.

[formflier]

 
Don't buy into "not doing anything".

You have made a thoughtful decision about what you should and shouldn't do.  It's not a chance matter (anymore) about you NOT taking her bait.  You made a decision about your actions...she doesn't like it.

She doesn't have to like it.

Don't buy into her worldview that is it "doing nothing".  It's doing what you have decided to do..which she doesn't agree with. 

You don't have to convince her of this...please don't try.  Please do try to convince yourself of this.

(basically..I see hints in your post of "buying her version"...or "toying with the idea of buying her version")

You are doing good stuff..hang in there.  It's not easy...important things rarely are.

FF

[stolencrumbs]

from our own discomfort of seeing them uncomfortable and blaming us.

This is helpful, and not a way I've thought about it. Most of the stuff I read about this doesn't ring true for me. Obviously I could be deluded, but I don't feel like I'm rescuing myself. I'm pretty good at sitting with uncomfortable feelings--I've sure had a lot of practice at seeing my wife in pain and managing that. But that leaves the question of why I do what I do (or what I've been doing), and I think avoiding blame gets at part of that. I guess I hadn't really included that in the category of bad feelings I'm trying to avoid.

I really don't think I can "save" her. I don't think much of what I have done in the past helps. I don't think that continuing to do the same things will make it better. I don't think it at all addresses the deeper issues both of us have. And I don't have any burning desire to rescue. What I often feel, and what I often think to myself, is that I'll just go along with whatever she says she wants, because maybe she will see that it doesn't actually help. Obviously, she doesn't see this. But I think it's probably more than that, and it is also me saying to myself that if I do this, at least she won't blame me for not doing X. (She'll just blame me for not doing Y!). So yeah, part of this is me not wanting to feel guilty, and I should figure out better ways to deal with that.

You don't have to convince her of this...please don't try.  Please do try to convince yourself of this.

I am terrible at both sides of this equation. A huge part of me wants to talk with my wife about all of this, and say "look, here's what I'm doing and why I'm doing it." I don't have a vision for how that possibly goes well, but the pull to try to convince is strong. It's also the way I tend to convince myself of things. I talk about them. I get push back. I try on different views. This isn't really possible with my wife right now.

[formflier]

  It's also the way I tend to convince myself of things. I talk about them. I get push back. I try on different views. This isn't really possible with my wife right now.

And likely won't be possible with your wife again.  Sorry to suggest that..

The bolded is exactly how I do it.  As you can likely tell I don't shrink from a good argument/discussion.  In my mind..I'm discussing things and other people sometimes/many times get offended...when all I wanted was to clarify points because I wanted to make sure I got their perspective correct when "trying on" a new view.

I do this with my therapist now and it works well for us.

As part of "radical acceptance" I've accepted my communication style has changed forever with my wife.

Many "problems" are such that I will ask if she wants to discuss it so we each understand each others perspective.  I'll have to hand it to her for being "honest" because sometimes she will says she doesn't care about my perspective.

At which point I'll say that I have to respect her choice and will table the discussion until we are both ready to understand each other.

Then..she will sometimes dysregulate because "tabling" means she doesn't get what she wants.

Every so often she will soften and we can talk..and perhaps move forward together on an issue.  It does happen...just not often.

So...I move forward on my own and let her deal with her emotions from HER CHOICE to not communicate.  NO RESCUING her from her choices. 

I don't see offering to continue a conversation of mutual understanding "rescuing".  So..when she brings something up..I'll offer. 

FF

[babyducks]

I took that statement to be an ominous warning that I am now going to get her fury untethered from any ethical concerns she might've had. I usually go with some version of your last option. It ends my part, at least. It doesn't end her part.

No, it won’t end her part.   That’s what therapy is for.    Threats, no matter how they are expressed,…. I am going to burn down the house,  I am going to leave you forever,  I am going to ram my car into your car require boundaries.   Firm consistent boundaries.    Validation is for times where there is a more calm,  and NO threats.

Most of the night tonight I've gotten some version of her expressing how much she hurts, and then asking/screaming (well, all caps texting)/admonishing me for not doing something to make the pain she feels go away. I don't humble myself. I don't make any grand gestures. I don't beg for forgiveness. I don't do anything to heal her heart. She is in pain. I'm supposed to make that pain go away.

I am assuming that the humbling, grand gestures, begging forgiveness is her texts messages to you?     As some one upstream has said,   No is a complete sentence.

No [wife’s name]  I can’t heal your heart.  I can support your work to  heal your heart by ___Fill__In___The__Blank.     

Fill in the blank by picking something,  some ONE thing that you can do, that feels reasonable to you,  that you can commit to doing regularly, consistently that reflects your values and you have control over. Something small.    Not a grand gesture.    Something appropriate and meaningful to you.

My Ex liked to send and receive cards in the mail.    Early on I tripped to the fact that getting a Hallmark card had a huge significance to her.   I bought a supply of cards and kept them in my desk drawer for special occasions.     This was upsetting to her.    I didn’t send them as frequently as she would like.    We had several long painful conversations about me sending cards.     I explained that I needed to send cards when it felt appropriate and meaningful to me.     When I felt like I was being my authentic self and conveying a message that resonated with me.   That I wouldn’t send cards  just to accomplish a task on a calendar.     She flat out said to me “that’s wrong”.    To which I replied “not to me”.        The point of that being, I sent cards when they reflected my values, not to soothe her need for reassurance.

As to begging forgiveness I would consider a response like this:
You and I see these things very differently,  I will apologize when I make a mistake, begging for forgiveness seems to me to escalate our issues not resolve them.

She sees it happening, and she is pretty much right about what she is saying. I wouldn't put it in her terms, but yeah, I'm not doing very much, or at least not the things she wants, to try to make the pain she feels go away. I'm certainly not trying to make it worse, as she claims, but I'm not trying to make it go away, either. That's hard.

If you want to open an avenue of approach, if you want to leave a bridge unburnt that she could meet you in the middle of, you will have to find a way to create that on your terms.     Black and White thinking of it’s completely 100% one way or completely 100% the other is not your friend.   If you feel that what you are doing by not continuing in circular arguments and adding to the cycle of conflict is helping the relationship, helping her,   helping you,  then I would suggest you tell her that.   

‘What I can do to help today is take a break from this cycle of conflict, my phone is off.’    And then of course you really have to turn your phone off.   You have to do what you say you will do.

Her expectation is that I will at least try to do something to make her feel better. It's like she sits around waiting, and at some point realizes I'm not going to do anything, and then goes off the rails. I just disappoint her over and over again.

Reframe that expectation,   talk in terms of the relationship,    your marriage, not making her feel better.     “wife’s name,  I can take responsibility for my 50% of our marriage,   I know things are difficult right now and I think we could start small by…….. walking the dogs together one day a week with out discussing relationship issues”.

My two cents.

[Cat Familiar]

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