I choose to get off the Karpman drama triangle

[Scarlet Phoenix]

I write this post to hold myself accountable. I choose to get off the Karpman drama triangle. Because it’s a no win situation.

If we’re in a drama tri­an­gle, what we’re getting is drama.

I spent years mostly being in the victim or rescuer position, sometimes taking the role of persecutor. My ex-dBPDh and I would be in our corners a lot. I am now a couple of months out of the relationship (divorced 1 year ago, but we kept seeing each other afterwords). And even though right now we are not in contact, I want to be intentional with not continuing the drama triangle with him in my mind, and with no one else in my life.

I still have a hard time with centering from the Rescuer position. Just now I was thinking about my ex and the fact that I informed him a couple of days ago that I want to not be in contact, at least for now. And now I cought myself thinking about if he’s sad or angry or feel all alone in the world, as he has explained in the past that he does, and maybe I should send a text to see how he's doing. And then it hit me what's happening. I’m focusing on his well-being when I should focus on mine. Dang it!

So these are my intentions for healing and living a healthy and happy life, based on the Karpman Drama article we have here:

1. Assert, not blame and punish (move away from persecutor position)
Voice my needs. Give constructive feedback. Initiate negotiations. Take positive action. This used to be scary for me before, but the more I do it the more comfortable I feel doing it.

2. Be vulnerable, but not needy (move away from victim position)
Be emotionally mature (vulnerable, not needy), accept the situations I find myself in and take responsibility to problem solve. Put thought into what I want and how to get it, and take action to make it happen.

3. Be caring, but not do more than is asked of me (move away from rescue position)
I will be an empathetic listener and provide feedback. And if the person asks and is taking the lead, I will offer assistance. I will not take over. This is the one I struggle with the most, because this is what I’ve been doing my whole life. I need to remind myself that going into rescue mode is disrespectful of the other party’s capacities to take care of themself.

So, I will trust that my ex knows how to take care of himself and I will stop tripping in the Rescue corner all by myself over here.

[gotbushels]

Scarlet Phoenix  

I support you while you hold yourself accountable to de-triangle.

I like your three-point summary. I think it's quite a fantastic set of Cliff's-Notes-on-Cliff's-Notes. Thank you.

Thank you for sharing this post. I was looking specifically for de-triangling methods in Family Evaluation recently and the chapter I went through didn't seem to have what I was looking for. The article you linked—I read it a while ago and it was what I was looking for. I'm going to read it again. So thank you!


I'm interested in stepping away from a persecutor role and into an assertive role. The article had:

"...because we may not really know how to ask someone to do something different without blaming them or invalidating them. Giving directions and telling others what we want rather than blaming them for doing things wrong or invalidating them, shows them how to be successful and feels a lot better, too. We are also more likely to get more cooperation from others that way."

Gold. Thanks for putting that together Skip.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey SP, I support your efforts, too, to get out of the drama triangle.  One thing that's helpful for me is to pause, sit back and look at things objectively, before responding.  Do I really need to jump in here and act like a White Knight?  Do I need to roll over and accept abuse?  Do I need to judge someone harshly and/or blast him/her?  Usually, I the answer is No, and I elect to stay above the fray.

LJ

[Cat Familiar]

Great summary, SP 

I’ve been trying to catch myself before stepping into the triangle, not always in time.

I’ve been so trained to take on other’s emotions (thanks, Mom   )  that sometimes accusations that I “don’t care” seem about right.

But my sense of normality has been skewed by having numerous pwBPD in my life. I do know that I care very deeply and it’s not a bad thing to distance myself at times from drama that others create. It’s just getting used to moving through the world in a new way, without trying to take responsibility for others, instead of having good boundaries.

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Thanks for your posts, everyone  

gotbushels, I like the expression 'de-triangle'. And I agree, the article is gold! I've marked down for myself the same paragraph you quoted. I've had difficulties speaking up, and would either say nothing or go in too hard with blame and accusations. It's great to have it lined out in this way, it makes it easier to take a closer look at my own behaviours.

Lucky Jim, thank you for pointing that out. Taking a pause and check in with yourself. A helpful and practical tip!

Cat Familiar, I hear you on being trained to take on others emotions (and thank you, mom, here too). It's healthy to distance ourselves from drama. Do you find it hard to maintain a healthy distance for you while still showing care for your loved ones? I mean being caring, but not being a rescuer.

[Cat Familiar]

Cat Familiar, I hear you on being trained to take on others emotions (and thank you, mom, here too). It's healthy to distance ourselves from drama. Do you find it hard to maintain a healthy distance for you while still showing care for your loved ones? I mean being caring, but not being a rescuer.

I can do the distancing thing quite well, but it can trigger my husband at times. That's what I meant by the "you don't care" comments I've received. I truly don't care about lots of the petty drama he indulges in, but I do care about him.

It's a change for me not to try and "fix things"--that's my modus operandi--I'm always fixing things here on the ranch, whether it be material things like fencing, plumbing, electrical or taking care of health issues for my animals--I do a lot of research on alternative medicine: herbs and supplements and that's my go-to before I use pharmaceuticals for them, as well as for my own health.

[Scarlet Phoenix]

I'm going to leave this link here talking about vulnerability since risk being vulnerable although not needy, is part of centering.

The Power of Vulnerability by Dr. Brené Brown.

Vulnerability is the path to love, belonging, joy, intimacy, trust, innovation, creativity, empathy 

This just broke me, I'm just bawling over here.
But in a good way!

[gotbushels]

I'm with you Scarlet Phoenix. I was bawling too, but at another time.   

Vulnerability is the path to love, belonging, joy, intimacy, trust, innovation, creativity, empathy 

Vulnerability to me is an adjective that describes a state.

2. Be vulnerable, but not needy (move away from victim position)
Be emotionally mature (vulnerable, not needy),

accept the situations I find myself in and

take responsibility to problem solve.

Put thought into what I want and

(put thought) into how to get it, and

take action to make it happen.

Could you (or anyone else) please share an example of how one would behave and "do vulnerable"?

Maybe we can do a worked example. So let's say I'm subject to a no-win game with a BP.

A common no-win game I had in my relationship was this:

• BP: You cheated on me.
• Non: No I didn't.

           (6 hours later)

• BP: You cheated on me.
• Non: No I didn't.
• BP: You never take my side.
• BP: I knew you weren't good for me.
• BP: Let's break up.

I understand today that we can apply no-JADE, validation, and emotional problem solving to this game. But how do I apply this to a Karpman triangle and how do I move from Victim to Vulnerable (per the article) here? Interested in your thoughts on this.

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Thank you, Igotbushels. Vulnerability is an adjective ... I hadn't thought about it like that, I see what you mean!

I'm very much in for working through examples. I have to run errands and stuff, but will be back tonight (Europe time)

[gotbushels]

Vulnerability is an adjective ...

Whoops. Vulnerable being the adjective; vulnerability being a noun. My mistake.    I'm still interested in how one does vulnerable though.

Here is the board's discussion page so we've got the same resources to work with.


For your effort to move away from the Persecutor role, I'd like to share this from Fjelstad.

"Instead of telling the person, “You didn’t wash your hands” or “You gave me the wrong papers,” change the focus from what didn’t happen to what you want. Even just using the “I want . . .” statement from the model is often enough, for example, “I’d like you to wash your hands before dinner” or “I’d appreciate it if you could find page 8 for me.”"

I often use "Will you please" rather than the "I'd like" and "I'd appreciate", because I think it's a more clear form of communicating, it gives the other party a choice to say no, and it doesn't feel like a feelings-driven sentence. I prefer the idea that I give the other person the chance to use their own sense of choice and activation without conveying "I feel this way, therefore, will you please do X".

I think this could be more of a cautious (timid per Fjelstad?) approach, but it's effective in the way that if you have (1) already accounted for the fact that there's nothing wrong with how you feel and you have (2) the ability to walk away with them refusing your request (ability to take a "no"), then it can be a more effective approach. I think the ability to accept a no comes from mindfulness and a sense of consenting the reality of the no. That knowing it's OK to walk away seems to empower the request.

This seems to help me a lot with getting what I want and with the upshot of sometimes maintaining boundaries. E.g., I used it last week to emphasise to a senior at work how I want something done, rather than resorting to "attacking back" like how my colleague advised me to do with her.

Which do you use or think you'll use Scarlet Phoenix? I'm interested in your thoughts.

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Decided to take some time to sleep and do a beautiful nature walk. Self-care  

Lots to ponder here, gotbushels.
For anyone reading, please feel free to jump in with your thoughts and experiences, too.

Could you (or anyone else) please share an example of how one would behave and "do vulnerable"?

This Friday I had a situation where this came to mind. I had a sofa delivered to my new apartment. And it was too big to fit through the door! The delivery guys had to take it back. Oh, the shame ...   I did feel stupid, but instead of calling someone crying on the phone, which honestly was my first impuls, I took a breath and looked at my alternatives. Can it be brought through the windows? No. Will I have to call the store? Yes. So I did, and although they don't usually take furniture back, I was able to have a nice talk with customer service and negotiate sending an email they could pass on to higher up in the chain. I have some good and factual points ready that I think will help me switch it with a different one.

This is maybe not the greatest example, but I did consciously step away from "needy and asking for rescue" and handled it myself even though I was uncomfortable.

I think this ties in with what Dr. Brené Brown says about being vulnerable. She states that being vulnerable envolves uncertainty, risk and emotional exposure

An old example would be when I asked my first husband for a first date when I didn't really know if he liked me.

As for your example with accusations about cheating. I'm just brainstorming here:
If we were to move from victim to vulnerability in this example, then we should look at the actions we can take:
– accept the situation I find myself in
– take responsibility to problem solve
– put thought into what I want
– (put thought) into how to get it
– take action to make it happen
Hm ... So what I want is what here? That the accusations stop, that my partner calms down, that we spend a nice moment together. The best I can do for that is as you say validate and not JADE. I also want to stay calm myself and not be affected by this and not see myself as a victim. Actions I can take for me are working on radical acceptance. Working on my sense of self in therapy. Keeping in touch with good friends for emotional validation and connection. These are actions that I do over time, though. In the situation I can also step away for a moment and practice breathing exercises to calm myself, if I feel triggered. 4 breaths in, hold 4 and out 8 calms the heart rate and gives me time to stay in a healthy space.

Another helpful action is to identify my feeling. What am I feeling? Anger, disappointment, disgust, hurt, humiliation, judgement, loneliness, other? When I know what I am actually feeling, I can do the technique of observing the feeling. It sounds a bit technical, but it's great for calming down. I identify the feeling, then I observe myself identifying it ("oh, so now I know how I feel, this is the feeling I have"). And then I can observe myself observing it ("I'm standing here thinking about how I'm observing my feeling of X"). This 3 step approach helps stepping away from the strong wave of feeling and back to center.

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Here is the board's discussion page so we've got the same resources to work with.

Thank you, I'll read it.

For your effort to move away from the Persecutor role (...)
I think the ability to accept a no comes from mindfulness and a sense of consenting the reality of the no. That knowing it's OK to walk away seems to empower the request.

I think it's a good point to change the focus from what didn't happen to what we want to happen. I hadn't thought about that.

I think a lot is in the wording and tone. And knowing my ask is reasonable for me. If it's not really reasonable, doesn't it easily swerve into persecution and accustations? In situations with my ex, I would go into the persecutor role when I felt for example overwhelmed with housework. "You never.. " and "You always..." and "I always have to..." were flying. A better approach would definitely to say it more factual "Will you do X and Z, please?" But as you said, the problem was that I often wasn't ready to accept a "no" form my ex in those situations.

That teaches me that I should have voiced my need or initiated a negotiation much sooner. And as always work on radical acceptance of being in a relationship with someone who has BPD. Or in another situation, work on accepting that this is the way my boss behaves, or this is how my parents usually behaves.

[gotbushels]

Decided to take some time to sleep and do a beautiful nature walk. Self-care  

  I got some time to sleep this weekend too. Glad we're on the same self-care package.

And it was too big to fit through the door! The delivery guys had to take it back. Oh, the shame ...  

Wow that is a dilemma! Way to go brainstorming and looking at ways to get 'through' it! I laughed at the going through the windows thing—my area has a lot of flats so going through the window would involve going on the outer edge of the buildings.

You're right. I think switching the product is an effective solution. The good thing when a customer wants a switch rather than an outright return is that the shop still gets to make a sale. The most obvious cost would be the labour and transport cost of delivery.

At the end, people do make mistakes, and it's not the end of the world. Good job keeping a cool head despite feeling silly. I think it's a big deal to handle the process yourself, and going through that is often a lot easier said than done, so good on you for that one.   

From my POV, even though it's not a strict triangling example, you did demonstrate the elements of your list for vulnerability.

• You accepted the situation you found yourself in; you ordered an item that wouldn't fit through the door, so if anyone made the mistake there, it's probably you.
• You took the responsibility to problem solve; by brainstorming and working with the shop to come to a solution—or at least have a dialogue open.
• You put thought in how to get what you want; being not to have the piece sitting outside your house, and at least keeping it at the shop so you can negotiate how to get something good for yourself from this.
• You took action to make it happen; you spoke to the delivery people and spoke to the shop to come bring yourself into a negotiation stage.

Hm ... So what I want is what here? [...]

Thanks for sharing your process Scarlet Phoenix. Yes, I think I would approach it that way too. I think when we exercise a state of mindfulness, bring no-JADE and bring validation; then work toward issue resolution, those are great means and ends of itself anyway.   

Thanks for sharing your breathing routine by the way. Before I moved house—my commute was quite long 1hr+; so I did 16 reps of 9-in 15-out. I find it's almost impossible to do without a dedicated 7 minutes of uninterrupted time during a working week though. So 4 breaths is a great idea. I've been using Breathe2Relax from the af.mil website for about 2 years now. It's a good way to let someone else do you counting for you in the morning.

Another helpful action is to identify my feeling. [...]

Me too! I use the name the feeling-and-yes technique. I liked it so much I taught it to one of my closest friends. I think I got it from Tara Brach? I can't remember. What an interesting way of observing: observing yourself identifying, and observing yourself observing. Very interesting. It reminds me of what I read about psychoanalysts using detachment techniques to help them step into a sort of observer role during a countertransference event.

I'll continue to think about de-triangling and participate here. I think if it can be learned as a skill it would give quite a good payoff. Thanks for the discussion on this.