16 yr dBPD STILL trying to manipulate even while in detention

[Tazzer4000]

  Yesterday was visitation with my 16 year old BPD daughter.  It is amazing to me that even as she is in detention for her out of control behaviors she believes she can dictate what she is going to do when she gets home. I will need to give background here so this maybe a long post. I apologize for that.

We have a neighbor who lives about 4 houses up the street. She has a daughter the same age as mine and they became friends 4 years ago. I didn't care for this girl's mother because something was off. She was always making her daughter drag her younger sibling(who is autistic and has other issues and is 5 years younger) with her ever where she went, she was always coming by to find her kids because she didn't know where they were, and her fiance is a "functional" alcoholic.

After about 2 years, my daughter asked me to try and be friends with them. I did so for her, against my gut instinct and that was a huge mistake. It became obvious that her now husband was not only an alcoholic but also has BPD. The woman herself has serious issues of some kind. My opinion, she is either NPD or ANPD. That being said it took me over a year to see things clearly as this woman is very manipulative and an excellent  liar. By the time I saw it, the damage was done. After my daughter was hospitalized the first time in July 2018, I found out that this woman was not only coaching my daughter in how to get around the rules but encouraging her to do whatever she wanted.

This woman had allowed my then 15 yr. daughter to throw a party at her home and her own 15 yr daughter was NOT there. She allowed them to drink alcohol to the point of vomiting and passing out on the lawn. I also found out that a week before the party this woman gave my daughter PlanB after she had unprotected sex with some guy instead of telling me about it. Now I would have given her the PlanB but I also would have taken her to the dr or health department to be tested for STI's. Instead I had no idea till 2 weeks later. Needless to say, I refused to allow my daughter to go to her house anymore as I could not be sure what would happen. I let this woman know that she needed to stay out of all our lives. She has not. She has repeatedly violated the child protective order I had to get. She went so far as to try and help my daughter run away.

Now back to the visit. My dBPD16 spent most of our 3 hour visit telling me that when she gets home she will be close to 17 and can do what she wants. And she wants to continue to be friends with these people and hang out with them. And she wants me to "just accept it" because it's not fair for me to make her choose between me and them. I am NOT okay with this. These people are toxic and have continually interfered with my parenting and relationship with my daughter. I know I cannot physically stop her but I cannot allow it either. What I have told her in the past is that she can make that choice but the consequences will be she can no longer live in our home. We will emancipate her and she will be responsible for herself. She thinks its ridiculous to do that over her wanting to be friends with these people. I think it's the only option I have as at 17, in our state, they are in a grey area legally. They can essentially leave and do what they want but if they cause damage or commit a crime the parents are still liable. Plus, if they leave and then decide months later to come back, you are legally required to allow it.

She is so manipulative and so good at making me second guess my decisions that I'm hoping to get feedback here. Am I being unreasonable by giving her this consequence? As I said, at 17 there is literally not much that can be done other than telling her to get out. Taking her phone and electronics has no effect and while there are other things to take, this woman is within walking distance of us and calling the police to bring her home will not work once she is 17. Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[FaithHopeLove]

I know it is hard but I think you are right to establish boundaries. I found this article to be really helpful. Maybe you will too. ps://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

[Tazzer4000]

I read the article and it was somewhat helpful. However, I'm still not certain if this is a boundary that is worth the loss of the relationship. My husband thinks so but I'm not nearly as sure.

[Only Human]

What a very difficult situation, Tazzer! From what you've posted, this woman really does sound like bad news and I can see why you're so adamant about keeping her at a very far distance. Allowing underage drinking is a crime, contributing to the delinquency of a minor. Were the police involved at all?

I let this woman know that she needed to stay out of all our lives. She has not. She has repeatedly violated the child protective order I had to get. She went so far as to try and help my daughter run away.

Were there any consequences for her violating the order?

I was emancipated at age 17 for moving in with my BF and I was absolutely livid! I see now that it was the only option for my parents.

How long until DD is 17?

~ OH

[Tazzer4000]

Yes, the police were involved but they turned it over to DCS. DCS found her guilty of neglect. As for the restraining order the court decided to give her another chance, warning that further violations would not be tolerated.

She will be 17 next March, so 11 months away.

Did you ever forgive your parents for emancipation you?

[FaithHopeLove]

Just my 2 cents regarding boundaries. Yes our children will get angry when we set them particularly if we haven't set them before. Sometimes they will push back hard. We kicked our son out of the house when he was 23 because he was dealing weed out of the basement. He was furious and still is over a year later. But it was absolutely the right thing to do. The alternative would be holding on to a "relationship" based on fear of my own child and no life of our own in our own home. That would not be healthy for any of us. Now he lives on his own. Our home is peaceful and, no, we did not lose him. He goes NC (noncontact) sometimes but he always comes back and our relationship is better than ever thanks to the tools I aquired here. But even if he did go NC indefinitely I would still stick with this decision. Until we drew the line he was spinning out of control. He is still out of control but less so than before. At least he now knows he has limits and, for all he complains, I think he appreciates the limits. There is a kind of security in a firm "no.'" Our children will test the limits but they still need to have them.

 Forgive me if this is either inaccurate or just too blunt, but it seems like your daughter is basically bullying you and you are so afraid of losing your relationship with her that you let it happen. Is that true? If not, again I apologize. If so don't feel bad. Your feelings are very understandable. The question is is acting on them and letting your daughter abuse you really in anyone's best interest including hers? What message are you sending her by not enforcing this boundary? I am here for you.

[Only Human]

Did you ever forgive your parents for emancipation you?

Not only did I forgive them, I considered it for my DD25. At 17 I couldn't see past my anger to the reality of the situation: I was a liability to my parents. Something I found interesting when I read the book, "Yes! Your Teen is Crazy!" is that the rational part of our brain isn't fully developed until around age 25 or so. This explains why, at around 23, I started to see that my parents weren't the monsters I made them out to be.

You've got some time before your DD turns 17 and a lot can change between now and then. Are you getting any feedback from the facility on how she is doing with following the rules and being respectful to staff?

When you talk with her on your phone visits or physical visits, are you using validation or other tools?

~ OH

[Tazzer4000]

Forgive me if this is either inaccurate or just too blunt, but it seems like your daughter is basically bullying you and you are so afraid of losing your relationship with her that you let it happen. Is that true? If not, again I apologize. If so don't feel bad. Your feelings are very understandable. The question is is acting on them and letting your daughter abuse you really in anyone's best interest including hers? What message are you sending her by not enforcing this boundary? I am here for you.

You are correct in that she does attempt to bully me to get her way. I stopped allowing it and set strict boundaries which caused her to escalate her behaviors and that's when we had to start calling the police because she would either become physically aggressive or run off. But you are correct. This is a boundary she needs to have and if she chooses to cross it then she will have to live somewhere else. I can't condone her hanging out with these people and at 17 my only option is to have her leave if she does so. Thanks for the help.

[FaithHopeLove]

Tazzer Have you heard of extinction bursts? I am wondering if that is what is happening with your daughter. Here is some good information about what an extinction burst is. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

[Tazzer4000]

You've got some time before your DD turns 17 and a lot can change between now and then. Are you getting any feedback from the facility on how she is doing with following the rules and being respectful to staff?

When you talk with her on your phone visits or physical visits, are you using validation or other tools?

~ OH

She has had some issues with following the rules and she has been extremely manipulative but they are onto her ways. I used a lot of valadition when I saw her which kept an argument at bay. I've been working hard on responding and not reacting. She doesn't always respond well to it but I stay calmer and that makes me feel better about things. I'm doing my best to remain positive without getting mynhopes up.

[Only Human]

I've been working hard on responding and not reacting. She doesn't always respond well to it but I stay calmer and that makes me feel better about things. I'm doing my best to remain positive without getting mynhopes up.

I'm glad you see the value in responding and not reacting - you stay calmer and feel better about things, she responds well, but not always. It's baby steps, Tazzer, and you are definitely on the right track. Keep up the good work!

~ OH

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders