She shattered two storm doors last night

[stolencrumbs]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=334987.0#top

She shattered two storm doors last night, and possibly the french doors behind them. She started texting me. I responded once. She kept going. I did fairly well at mostly not looking at my phone. The texting did stop for a while. Then I got a text saying the storm door was no match for her. Then a few more texts marveling at the sounds the glass was making as it shattered. She also said she thought she might've broken the other doors as well. I have not surveyed the damage. It is in a room that can be closed off to the dogs.

I'm mainly just getting this down. I don't think I have any new thoughts on any of this. I'm not great at writing down things that have happened. I have the text and email exchanges that document pretty much everything, but that's a mountain of stuff to sift through. These posts are much easier to go through.

[formflier]

   

What is the purpose of "documentation"?

Has she ever done destruction on this level before?

What if you didn't "survey the damage"?  What if you declined to do further things/spend time at the house until she corrects this damage? 

Not suggesting this...but trying to get a vision of what different decisions might lead to.

Can you reveal to us what your one response was?


FF

[Cat Familiar]

From what you write, I get the impression that there are no consequences for her about anything she damages. I assume that she breaks things, puts holes in the wall and you clean up her mess.

And then she wants you to fix up the house so that it can be sold.

Is this correct?

[boatingwoman]

I’m going to be blunt here.

She cannot destroy things.  That is a boundary you need to set.

I would STRONGLY suggest next time she does things like that, you call 911 for a welfare check and have her committed because that level of out of control means SHE IS INDEED A DANGER TO HERSELF AND OTHERS.

And while she is in the hospital (no doubt she will get baker acted and get at least a 5 day stay), you move back into YOUR house.

Do you mind if I ask how old you are? I’m guessing 20s since you don’t seem to mind living in your car and your office. I’m pushing 50 so I don’t have time for that kind of BS any more.

What is the end point for you? She has a mental disease that isn’t going to change.  You won’t be able to change your ways to placate her mental illness.  I’ve seen my BIL try and all it did was give her all the control, which she used to abuse him (much like your wife) and it caused him to develop mental health issues, and she gets him committed while she is the one who is out of control.

Do you consider yourself an abused husband? If not, why not?

[boatingwoman]

My next question is even more blunt, and for that I apologize.

If you love her, why don’t you love her enough to have her committed? She CLEARLY needs it.

You could probably still do it today because I doubt she is calm and peaceful after last night.

Don’t let her mental illness run either of your lives.  You need to have boundaries. She needs help. You are her husband who posts about how you are trying to help. The one way you can get her help is by doing the right thing and doing a 5150 or whatever they call it where you live.

You also need to get the dogs out of there. They are no doubt traumatized. Find a rescue if you have to. 

Where I live, you have to go to the coroners office and fill out the forms.

[formflier]

  that there are no consequences for her about anything she damages.

This is the focus or should be the focus.  Not so much that consequences are "imposed" on her...but that she is not save from the natural and logical consequences of her actions.

FF

[stolencrumbs]

ff,
I guess the "documentation" is mainly for me. I lose track of how long ago things happened. It's helpful to be able to see the ebbs and flows, the overall trajectory of things, the frequency, etc. I also suppose that at some point in the future it might be important for me to be able to document some of these things to others. Knowing dates here makes it easier to find texts, emails, photos, etc. on my phone/computer.

It's hard to assess levels of damage. She destroyed our kitchen with a hammer. But she wanted to replace it anyway. This is the most destructive thing she's done to some part of our house that she didn't already want to replace.

My text to her was "I think this is all important. It is important to me, and it is important that we are able to talk about it more calmly. I don't want to argue or fight. Can we please not do that? Can we make a plan to talk later tonight or tomorrow?"

Cat,
Yes, that has pretty much been the way things worked. I did check in with her this morning and asked if there was anything urgent I needed to do. Are the dogs safe, are the outside doors still weatherproof (it's raining here today)? Dogs are fine, doors are fine in weather, just lots and lots of broken glass. I offered to help clean up this afternoon after my classes. She is upset because she thought I was offering to come over this morning. Now says in a huff that she'll just do it herself. Okay by me.

There is always something, but at the moment, one thing that pushes me to help is that she still has issues with her head. She has a fracture in her cribriform plate that won't heal, most likely because of all of her crying. Because of the fracture, she has a spinal fluid leak that causes dizziness and pressure. Her doctor wants her to see a neurosurgeon (she won't). In the meantime, the recommendation is bed rest. She obviously doesn't follow this, but I don't want her doing more than she should be doing because I'm refusing to do something. In this case, I guess my position is that if the dogs are safe and the house isn't being further destroyed by weather, then I will help clean things up when I can, but not on her schedule.

boatingwoman,
I appreciate the bluntness. I'm 41. I don't conceive of myself as an abused husband. On some level I recognize that I am, but that isn't how I tend to think of myself. Not sure why.

There is a good bit of discussion in one of my threads about my hesitation to call 911. I am prepared to do that when she threatens suicide or to burn the house down. I had not prepared myself for that for nights like last night. I'm working on adjusting my threshold for doing that.

[boatingwoman]

Why in the world would you go clean up her mess?

Reward her for doing that?

[formflier]

Is there a difference when she breaks things "she already wanted to replace" and when she just breaks things?

Not sure if there was nuance there I missed.

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Is there a difference when she breaks things "she already wanted to replace" and when she just breaks things?

Not sure if there was nuance there I missed.

FF

I don't know, I guess to me it suggests some greater level of being out of control. She is normally selective in what she destroys--either destroying things she doesn't really care about (the counter tops) or something that can be fairly easily fixed (drywall). This was neither.

[empath]

SC, do you think this was an escalation from her normal patterns?

Several years ago, my h punched a tile wall after a physically abusive incident. He came up and showed me what he had done. It turned out that he had broken his hand, but he didn't go to the dr immediately about it. He had trouble signing paperwork and things like that. The interesting thing as he was talking to me about it was that he didn't use his non-dominant hand because that was also the one that he used for chording when he played guitar. He made that choice, so I knew that there was control that he was exercising.

There are natural consequences of our spouses actions. The hard thing for us to learn is to not make those consequences easier on them. It is not helping them when we do.

[Notwendy]

There is always something that pushes you to help- Yes, it is possible to rationalize behavior. My BPD mother does it well. There is always a "reason" ( besides her own accountability for it) - and she is able to rationally explain the irrational.

Destroying property like that isn't rational. Neither is ignoring a serious medical problem. Leaking spinal fluid is serious. Her decision to not seek someone to repair it is irrational and one could argue that she's a danger to herself on the basis of not seeking treatment.

[I Am Redeemed]

She wanted you to do something to heal her heart from the pain that you (in her mind) caused by seeing your parents. You didn't beg forgiveness like she wanted or make frantic efforts to stop her pain. She sought your full attention to her emotional pain, probably in an effort to get you to prove that she is your priority (that seems to be the root of the issue she has with you and your parents). When those efforts failed, she used physically destructive behavior to get your attention. You didn't rush to clean up the emotional mess, so she made a tangible mess, and if you participate at all in cleaning that up, it will reinforce to her that extreme measures get her the attention she seeks.

If she has severe health issues, you may want to revisit the 911 issue. You don't want her to overexert herself. Cleaning up the mess is less likely to be physically straining than making it. 911 for a welfare check on someone who is leaking spinal fluid and is engaging in destructive behavior that could be physically harmful to herself is not unreasonable.

Redeemed

[stolencrumbs]

She wanted you to do something to heal her heart from the pain that you (in her mind) caused by seeing your parents. You didn't beg forgiveness like she wanted or make frantic efforts to stop her pain. She sought your full attention to her emotional pain, probably in an effort to get you to prove that she is your priority (that seems to be the root of the issue she has with you and your parents). When those efforts failed, she used physically destructive behavior to get your attention. You didn't rush to clean up the emotional mess, so she made a tangible mess, and if you participate at all in cleaning that up, it will reinforce to her that extreme measures get her the attention she seeks.

Thanks Redeemed. I think this is it exactly. She is now being pretty explicit about this. She did clean up the mess she made. I have not been over there. Her focus is entirely on me not "making amends" or "making a gesture" to "heal her heart." I'm not sure what else to say to her. She accuses me of digging my heels in and trying to make some stand. I feel like I'm just trying to not play this game.

I feel like you all must surely get tired of reading and responding to basically the same things from me, but below are the emails she sent last night that pretty much spell out what Redeemed says above. I'd appreciate any insight or advice. The main thing I feel at the moment is that I don't want to do anything in response to demands, threats, and property destruction. In addition to reinforcing the wrong things, it just feels awful. Nothing I would possibly do under these circumstances would feel genuine or authentic. I can't even really begin to think about what *I* think is reasonable or appropriate for me to do. I do know that it all breaks my heart. And I know that I tend to do things that don't really help when I feel that way. I am trying to do things differently...

I am not budging on this. I am not forfeiting any more dignity. I am not going to be humiliated anymore. So whatever this is, this will be our life and there will be NO possible way forward together if you don't try to make amends. For my heart. To help me hold onto some sense of dignity.

I would sooner DIE than swallow any more shame and humiliation.

Unless and until you make a real gesture and some effort to make amends,  there is no possibility of reconciliation or repair or moving forward in a life together. And every day you are not willing to actively do something that helps my heart, the less likely that will even be an option. I'm not even sure it's an option now. I guess it shouldn't be since I did say it was the last chance last night. Every time I draw a line and try to protect my dignity and humanity and you ignore me, it really hurts. It makes me feel so unbelievably disrespected and disregarded.

You really hurt me. Whether you intended to or not. Whatever your justification. The way you and your family treated me really hurt. Whether I was being more sensitive than I might be in a different life with more reserves to access, it was still really painful. And I don't have any idea what response is "appropriate" to something that wasn't okay to begin with. I certainly wish I had been able to completely detach and not be affected and not get as upset as I did. But my emotionally raw response was because I felt deeply, deeply wounded and kicked in the gut and invisible and that is a pretty awful pain to feel in the core of one's spirit.

That you have continued to reinforce it and to be smug and stubborn and to dig your heels in when you can clearly see how much it hurts me is mind boggling. It is mind boggling. It is just incomprehensible. However badly I express (and how is one supposed to express unfathomable hurt?) things, it is incomprehensible that the person who uses that word LOVE so much doesn't just want to comfort and ease that hurt and help me feel a little dignity and not so humiliated.

i can't do this anymore. i just won't. i won't do it anymore. that you could exclude me and treat me like i don't exist- all three of you- and then spend a week rubbing it in instead of just making a stupid gesture... i'd rather die than keep living as a prisoner, in a life with someone who doesn't respect or honor my  heart. and you can't show any mercy or kindness. just a stand off waiting for me to eat  and accept my humiliation and tininess.

no. no no. no. no. no.

[Cat Familiar]

Obviously all the ways you've tried to help her and support her are not getting through and being misinterpreted by her. Let's  try and parse this message to see if we can understand what she's trying to communicate.

I am not budging on this. I am not forfeiting any more dignity. I am not going to be humiliated anymore. So whatever this is, this will be our life and there will be NO possible way forward together if you don't try to make amends. For my heart. To help me hold onto some sense of dignity.

Somehow she is equating your visit with your parents as an humiliation and loss of dignity. Is there a history of your parents not liking her? Disrespecting her? Criticizing her? Has she gotten along with them in the past, or has she avoided interacting with them?

I would sooner DIE than swallow any more shame and humiliation.

Unless and until you make a real gesture and some effort to make amends,  there is no possibility of reconciliation or repair or moving forward in a life together. And every day you are not willing to actively do something that helps my heart, the less likely that will even be an option. I'm not even sure it's an option now. I guess it shouldn't be since I did say it was the last chance last night. Every time I draw a line and try to protect my dignity and humanity and you ignore me, it really hurts. It makes me feel so unbelievably disrespected and disregarded.

She's using a reference to suicide. Obviously suicide threats have gotten your attention in the past, so people tend to use strategies that have worked before.

Do you suppose this "real gesture" is to grant her wish to move elsewhere? And "some effort to make amends"--what do you suppose she's hinting about here? Then there's more threats about not having a life together. But do you really even have a life together now, based upon all her demands and prohibitions?

How did she draw a line to protect her dignity and humanity? Was it by prohibiting you from seeing your parents?

You really hurt me. Whether you intended to or not. Whatever your justification. The way you and your family treated me really hurt. Whether I was being more sensitive than I might be in a different life with more reserves to access, it was still really painful. And I don't have any idea what response is "appropriate" to something that wasn't okay to begin with. I certainly wish I had been able to completely detach and not be affected and not get as upset as I did. But my emotionally raw response was because I felt deeply, deeply wounded and kicked in the gut and invisible and that is a pretty awful pain to feel in the core of one's spirit.

She's acknowledging that you may not have intended to hurt her. What do you think she means by "the way you and your family treated (her)"? She is also acknowledging that she may have been "more sensitive" than if she was "in a different life with more reserves to access". Do you think she is blaming you for living someplace she doesn't like?

She is wondering what response is "appropriate" when reality doesn't comport with her demands. And then it appears that she justifies her behavior due to feeling emotional pain.

That you have continued to reinforce it and to be smug and stubborn and to dig your heels in when you can clearly see how much it hurts me is mind boggling. It is mind boggling. It is just incomprehensible. However badly I express (and how is one supposed to express unfathomable hurt?) things, it is incomprehensible that the person who uses that word LOVE so much doesn't just want to comfort and ease that hurt and help me feel a little dignity and not so humiliated.

i can't do this anymore. i just won't. i won't do it anymore. that you could exclude me and treat me like i don't exist- all three of you- and then spend a week rubbing it in instead of just making a stupid gesture... i'd rather die than keep living as a prisoner, in a life with someone who doesn't respect or honor my  heart. and you can't show any mercy or kindness. just a stand off waiting for me to eat  and accept my humiliation and tininess.

no. no no. no. no. no.

So here she's trying to make you feel guilty for spending time with your parents and is issuing more threats.

My question for you is if she's truly this miserable, feels that you're so un-compassionate and uncaring about her and is so humiliated by you even spending a few hours with your parents that she wants to either die or end your marriage--why are you hanging on so hard to this relationship?

[Notwendy]

I don't even know what to begin to say, because this email is IMHO, scary.

I think it's OK to acknowledge her pain. Her pain is very real to her. What doesn't make sense is the idea that you caused it. Yet, this interpretation of you seeing your parents is 100% true to her.

The source of her pain is internal to her. It's always there, and sadly, she interprets her external world in a way that reinforces her thinking- that the pain is outside her and something outside her then has the power to fix it.

BPD is mostly played out with the people we are most intimate with. To her, you are the cause of her pain and you have the ability to heal her hurting heart. The problem is- she's going to see you as causing it- through her interpretation of things you do. If seeing your parents was the one thing that caused her pain, you'd be on your knees trying to help her, but this is just the "cause" of the pain for the moment. If you fix this by swearing off seeing your parents, that won't be the solution- you know that- because the pain will just be perceived by the next thing you do that she interprets as hurtful to her.

You're the canvas she paints her pain on. Clean the canvas, and there will be a another picture painted. You've already seen this.

This is similar to my BPD mother. She's had this "hurt" with her for as long as I have known her ( because it was likely there before I was born ). I've observed efforts over decades on behalf of my father, us kids, to help her, to ease her inner pain but when we did the "one" thing that she was convinced we needed to do, it didn't work - or at least not for long.

We tried though. Honestly, what does a kid want the most? For their parents to be happy and to love them. But we couldn't do it. My father tried too- and he couldn't do it.

I am not any kind of expert of professional,  but through my own observations, I don't  believe it is possible for a lay person to do anything that can "fix" this kind of pain your wife is going through. I think it requires skilled mental health treatment.

[I Am Redeemed]

SC,

I will try to respond more in depth about the emails, but I am typing this on my phone, so I just want to address your self consciousness about your situation.

No one here is forced to read or respond, we are on these boards because we both need help sometimes and also want to give it, when possible.

Changing our responses and trying to break patterns is certainly not easy, especially under the stressful circumstances of dealing with a loved one in crisis. If we all "had it figured out" and had such clarity with regards to the exact appropriate way to deal with such situations, well, we wouldn't need these boards. But so many of us do, and that is both understandable and OK.

Redeemed

[Lucky Jim]

She sought your full attention to her emotional pain, probably in an effort to get you to prove that she is your priority (that seems to be the root of the issue she has with you and your parents). When those efforts failed, she used physically destructive behavior to get your attention.

I Am Redeemed: That's it, in a nutshell.  The storm without mirrors the storm within.  I lived it.  My BPDxW broke down doors, punched a hole in the wall (twice), smashed personal property, etc., in an effort to quell her emotional pain.  It all stems from a deep-seated fear of abandonment, in my view.  That fear may be irrational, yet is at the heart of BPD. 

LuckyJim

[boatingwoman]

This is my last post to you, since I have major life issues with one of my kids that will require all of my attention.

People with BPD do this: they accuse you of doing the things to them that they are really doing to you.  You are the prisoner, locked out of your own house. You are the victim of her.  You are the one who isn’t having any dignity or all the other BS she said.

She has a death wish. This is very clear.  She wants to die. How many times has she said that.

In my opinion, and I am being blunt because I have no more time and I have to get this out.

She needs to be committed. Right now.  Today. If you don’t want to do it, call one of her family and get them to do it (wait, let me guess.. they all have nothing to do with her).

At this point, I also believe your life is in danger and I am getting a very large red flag here regarding potential murder suicide.

Does she have a gun? Do you live in a state where she can get one?

Good luck. I hope she doesn’t murder you.

[Enabler]

It all stems from a deep-seated fear of abandonment, in my view.  That fear may be irrational, yet is at the heart of BPD. 

and you have emotionally and physically abandoned her (for good reason)

Her mail ticks virtually every single rule of the '20 rules for understanding BPD'
www.anythingtostopthepain.com/20-rules-for-understanding-BPD/

I know you said earlier in this thread that you would call the police if she threatened suicide or set fire to the house... but what if she smashes every single window, takes a hammer to every single dry wall... the bathroom suite... the car? Although I am not sure that this is a cry for help (it could well be that she see's the house as yours not hers, she sees the house as the cause of her pain, her cage so to speak and therefore she wants to be free from it), you get to determine what 'help' looks like. There is no 'relationship' at this point, how much worse can it get if you hand over the evidence of her experience to a medical team to intervene?

Enabler

[I Am Redeemed]

I think the "real gesture" she wants is for you to agree with her (extremely disordered) viewpoint: she is right, you were wrong, it was terrible and horrible to see your parents for the first time in four years without asking her permission (because that's really what it is) or giving her ample time to prepare and process the utterly unendurable prospect of you placing your focus, however momentarily, on anyone but her.

The "exclusion" probably means that your parents made a decision to come see you and you allowed that, without giving her the"input" (control) she wants, instead of coming over to her side in some kind of "us against the world" black and white, totally unrealistic polarization which she seems to think is how your marriage should be defined. It's an "if you're not with me, you're against me" perception. Again, disordered.

She feels humiliation and shame because you didn't validate her feelings of entitlement to monopolize your attention and control your relationship with your parents.

Didn't you say you have a T? Any way you could show this email to your counselor, or hers?

I think this is evidence that she has slid way down the scale in terms of functionality. I agree that she is unlikely to respond well to anything in this state without serious mental health treatment.

[Notwendy]

I think the "real gesture" she wants is for you to agree with her (extremely disordered) viewpoint:

I agree with this. I also agree with the others who posted to call 911 on her on the basis of the email she sent you, her behavior, and her refusal to seek medical care for a serious medical condition.

Does she mean what she says? Who knows. Because you can't know, you need to err on the side of caution.

You also have a choice. To buy into her distorted thinking or to maintain yours and act according to sanity- she's extremely disordered and needs mental health.

My father chose to buy into the disordered thinking. I saw where that went and don't want to participate in it. Multiple threats of suicide, at least one attempt, lots of self harm, running around the house screaming, destroying property. ( and also selectively- this doesn't make it sane). Yet, my father smoothed it over, fixed it.

When he passed away, we didn't know how long mom would last without being hospitalized. However, we decided to call 911 immediately if we had any concerns. She knows it too. Ironically ( thankfully) she hasn't done any of the threats or behaviors she did before with us. Why? Because it won't work. We won't enable it. We will call 911 and she knows it.

How is she doing? She still has BPD but she's now elderly and has a lot of assistance so in a way she's "normalized" her situation due to her age. But if she were younger, she'd need just as much daily assistance as she does now. She's not capable of functioning as an adult on her own. From the posts I have read here, neither is your wife (IMHO) going to be without medical/mental health intervention.

[formflier]

I too agree a 911 call/welfare check is in order. 

Said from my military background...this is way above my or your paygrade.

Did you respond to the email?  If not I think you should, but we should probably help you do something really brief and validating...do not promise or agree with her stuff.

I'm not the best validator...hopefully others can help on that front

Seriously..this is above your paygrade...let professionals help. 



FF

[Cat Familiar]

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