I broke No Contact in an attempt to get some closure

[Wicker Man]

I broke No Contact in an attempt to get some closure.  I had heard from a mutual friend Dream Come True believed we failed because of her rage.  Our demise was, in fact, her erosion of my trust and me ultimately coming to the conclusion she would one day simply leave me. (to be more clear she broke up with me at the 11th hour -I had a minor break down and agreed with her we were done. It had been a bluff charge on her part -but I learned this bear could charge and the next time might include a proper mauling...)

In our few days of contact I was reminded of two things -firstly (the good) she is as I remembered her -Dream Come true is perhaps the most charismatic person I have ever met.  It was odd that after a year of no contact she picked up the conversation as if nothing had happened.  We spoke about her work and we did some problem solving to help her on her next movie.  When we started to speak about what happened to us the wheels flew off.  

When the rubber hit the road (the bad) she has no ability to take responsibility for her actions.  We, as a couple, had no ability to problem solve.  (I believe) out of deep shame she has cannot (at this point in her life) have a discussion which might have lead us to a tenable relationship.  

I delivered the message I felt she needed to hear.  I was firm, but not cruel -to paraphrase I told her love thrives on a foundation of trust and respect and if she continues to use sex as a weapon or a tool she will always be seen as a thing instead of the truly beautiful human being she is.  She did not respond to this final message and after waiting for a response for a couple weeks I re-blocked her for the last time.

Even in this final contact I believe I saw two people.  The most wonderful human being I have ever met and the traumatized little girl who is full of shame.  Inseparable and as tragic as she is lovely.

Wicker Man

[JNChell]

What is her name in your language?

[Wicker Man]

Ha! that was awesome thank you.  I literally laughed out loud! 

This is my language -I would have hoped from my post I would be perceived as a native English speaker... Somewhere a professor laughs. 

Dream ComeTrue is a Chinese national.  If feel free using the translation of her name because one would have to get up really early in the morning to find out which characters make up this name... and there are over 1.2 billion Chinese and the Pacific Ocean. 

Most of the time I called her small devil 小鬼 which is normally reserved for misbehaving children.  I told her if the shoe fits...  She thought about it a while and agreed it was a fine nickname for her (only in private of course).  She called me 怪物 which means monster.


Wicker Man

[Longterm]

  She called me 怪物 which means monster.

I think we cal all resonate with that

[Skip]

I delivered the message I felt she needed to hear.  I was firm, but not cruel -to paraphrase I told her love thrives on a foundation of trust and respect and if she continues to use sex as a weapon or a tool she will always be seen as a thing instead of the truly beautiful human being she is.  She did not respond to this final message and after waiting for a response for a couple weeks I re-blocked her for the last time.

Was this the plan or the circumstance?

Did this help you?

[Wicker Man]

Actually... what she meant by Monster was she 'Didn't know what I was'.  My reactions to her behavior were out of her normal experience.  I did not look at sadness as weakness.  I understood her cutting herself -I told her when very sad I have gone on long long runs because the physical pain helped to relieve mental anguish.  The difference being my way is socially acceptable so we just need to find her a different way to cope with her emptiness and pain.

The first time she raged at me she said "I am really angry".  I said the Chinese equivalent of 'Ok / yes'.  She said what do you mean 'ok!'.  I told her 'I love you when you are angry, happy, or sad.  They are all part of you'.  She sat on the bed and said 'Damn it I am not mad anymore'.  I assured her not to worry about it.  I was quite an annoying person and she would be mad again  before she knew it.

Months later, in a bid for control, she intimated she would withhold sex.  I said if she didn't feel like it that was fine I enjoyed her company we can do something else -I am not here for the sex.  That was when she said 'What are you'.  I said I am your monster and it stuck.

For a lot of reasons, culture being one of them, she had never met anyone quite like me.

While we were together I did my bests to find a middle ground between her 'two selves'.  We made some progress.  She stopped cutting herself and the voices she heard nearly ceased. Things were looking up.  She had rekindled her relationship with her mother and we seemed to be doing well.

Then... (cue ominous music)  I had inadvertently stoked her shame. 

The most dramatic split between the positive her and the negative her came when she broke a promise to us and went to a very dangerous #metoo work dinner with a known villain and got drunk.  The next day I talked through with her how she needs to keep herself safe for her family and me as well as the importance of trust in an intimate relationship.  This went swimmingly well for me...

She ghosted me and hooked up with an actor on her current movie.  Once the movie was finished and she arrived back home she ghosted the actor, cut herself for the first time in almost a year and had the only full blown psychotic episode during our time together (visual and auditory hallucination).  I believe now she was so completely devastated by her actions and  it caused this dysregulation and dissociative episode.  Her 'special mission' lasted about 3 days and she re-booted.

The hurt little girl in her hit her with a full broadside when she felt shame over a promise broken and the possibility of sexual assault.  She was, in my opinion, trying to sooth the shame with a horrible coping mechanism -closing her heart and opening her legs.  The rational her would have never done this to us, but when under crushing stress she resorted to old and dysfunctional coping mechanisms.


Wicker Man

During our relationship I was completely unaware of BPD (somewhere a different professor laughs).  She had been misdiagnosed bi-polar schizophrenic and I took this at face value. [As a side note BPD is not recognized in the CSP -Chinese DSM.  Which is ironic for a culture, in my opinion, all but designed to create futile ground for BPD*] 

*Male children are by and large preferred over girls.  She was told by her grandmother her parents divorced because she was born a girl.  Further married couples are compelled to have a baby quickly which is often left to the grandparents to raise.  Not to mention the misogyny which seems to be endemic.  --Don't get me wrong it is an amazing place and culture, just really hard on young women.

[Wicker Man]

Was this the plan or the circumstance?

Did this help you?

It was methodical on my part -I was afraid of doing more harm, but felt the potential benefit outweighed the risk.  I spoke about it with my therapist and opened contact. 

It did help me.  -This is not going to be for everyone.  It was potentially playing with fire.

I will start with the ending and then fill in. 

Here is the key for me.  I realized during our discourse  she is a pathological lier and thus there is no point in conversing with her.  It is overly simplistic, but that was what stuck.  It felt like when I overcame my fear of heights by working in a theater.  One day I realized it would not hurt if I fell -so just don't fall. 

During our discussion she said "I only lied to protect you"  I said "ok.  At this point we have nothing to lose, would you like to tell me what you lied about?"... She said I should guess. 

Can you imagine the devastating harm my guessing would have caused?  For someone with shame issues to hear all of my doubts?  As an opening salvo maybe I start with 'were you a sex worker when you left home at 16?'  Yep... That would have made for a super conversation for someone with a fragile and underdeveloped sense of self...  I declined the offer.

The last missive I received from her she wrote '...If... just if something bad happened...'.  This was referring to a ghosting and month long hook up with an actor.  I told her something bad did happen.  You showed me over and over when you were upset with me you would spend time with another man with  varying degrees of intimacy. 

I explained you were not creating jealousy on my part you were instead eroding my trust and slowly killing us.  I told her I am not a jealous person -I never have been.  I reminded her I had told her if one day I cannot satisfy her she could take a lover if her were a kind man.

I finished with 'Until you stop using sex as a tool or a weapon you will be seen as a thing instead of the beautiful human being you are."

It took me the entirety of our 18 months together to stop making excuses for her deviant behavior.  I had never met someone who said one thing and did another.  I never had met someone who was self destructive and so resistant to being able to walk a different path. 

There were mitigating circumstances, I was working 110 hours a week for nearly all of our relationship and perhaps not at my most observant.  Perhaps a little bit of 'lost in translation', and the biggest problem was my projecting my stability, honesty and kindness on to her.  It took me a minor breakdown for everything to snap together and form a trend. 

I had all these data points of bad behavior, which could each more or less could be explained away until I stepped back and saw the Pollock-like beautiful and horrible mess our relationship really was. 

I was guilty of giving the benefit of the doubt over and over and the naive and arrogant assumption I could love the trouble out of us.

Wicker Man

[JNChell]

Wicker Man. We have our experiences with BPD. One thing that stands out is their ability to tell the truth. They can’t. I’ve painted things in a way that can’t be denied, and S4’s mom would just stare out the window.

Skip is right. Our exes aren’t 2 personalities. How are things going with you and your wife?

[Wicker Man]

Things are going ok here.  It is heavy lifting to recover from an affair (mine). 

My wife (diagnosed OCPD) has dropped out of therapy which is a little disappointing (in this case by disappointing I mean scary).  She is refusing to go to couple's therapy.  The last time I got her to go she played the archetypical recalcitrant husband who has been dragged to therapy.  Her opening salvo was "Ask him... I don't know why we are here.  Apparently something about intimacy and having a safe place to talk."  I started laughing.

She asked what was funny.  I told her someone saying 'Intimacy and safe place with contempt'.  ***Yes... I am aware of Dr. John M. Gottman and the danger implied.

So I am trying to keep the shiny side up and doing my best.  I continue therapy and read a lot and am giving Wellbutrin a try for six months. 

I was a parentified child and so I have been doing a lot of digging there as well as reading up on narcissistic disruption (very similar idea to parentification). 

Day to day life here is peaceful, but I am afraid we are falling back into old patterns.  I have always loved her and I feel luck to have her back.  However... she simply doesn't know how to show love in return.  She asked which of the 5 love languages I would prefer -I said any one would be nice, which do you think you would be most comfortable with?  We never spoke of this again...

She didn't say this but a quote from someone suffering from OCPD typifies my experience "I told you I love you three years ago, if something changes I will let you know."  She does not do warm and fuzzy.  I have nearly never been complimented on my appearance, cooking, cleaning, home repair, or my work as a photographer.  Excellence is assumed and anything less is met with derision.   Think the absolute polar opposite of BPD in the behavioral continuum -absolutely rock solid and stabile, yet cold.

I have to sign off.  I have meat in the sous vide and am baking bread for dinner -so now I can head to the grocery store.  I am, as ever a living breathing nightmare -but someone has to do it

And yes.. "Skip is right. Our exes aren’t 2 personalities".  Considering "Identity disturbance: Markedly or persistently unstable self-image or sense of self" is one of the criteria for diagnosis... Dream Come True had trouble with one concrete personality much less two...

Wicker Man

[JNChell]

Glad to hear from you, Wicker Man. Maybe it’s a good time to start talking about you and your wife.

[Wicker Man]

...start talking about you and your wife.

JNChell as much as I appreciate the offer I don't see any point.  After 25 years I understand the dynamic here at home.  I fully understand: I cannot change her, I cannot count on her changing -I can only work on myself and accept her for who she is.

I can offer support and do my best to reward good behaviors and mitigate destructive behavior. 

I can work on my communication skills and help her work on hers.

I can hope, but I have to have realistic expectations -I believe I do.

From my point of view all relationships are similar in that they take a lot of work.  When there is a personality disorder in the mix the work becomes more challenging.  The challenges are going to be different depending on the traits a personality disorder imply.

To talk about an OCPD relationship here on BPD Family would be contraindicated.  OCPD is about as far away from BPD as can be. 

In my experience the two disorders could be compared to the unstoppable force of a glacier vs. the sudden devastation of an avalanche... In both cases one is up to the elbows in snow, but the causality is very different.

Thank you for the offer,

Wicker Man

[Wicker Man]

Cromwell -since you are not able to receive PM I will use unforgivably large bandwidth to send this missive.  I am over 50, so using an inappropriate amount of bandwidth can be easy explained away by the unforgivable amount of oxygen I have consumed thus far... not to mention the methane I have released into the atmosphere... (我放屁了很多   )... it looks all smart in Mandarin doesn't it?

In my time on this board I have seen your highs and lows.  I have always been pulling for you -we did not always agree, but there was alway respect.  It was debate as it should be (within the bounds of collegium... ahem... of course...)  "You dirty rotten son of a B!tch" from Young Frankenstein (Mel Brooks)...  (love that movie!)   

It seems only yesterday I asked if your name was a ward again recycling.  (Cormwell was exhumed and beheaded for those who are not ancient history buffs) I thought it was an incredibly excellent moniker.  My Wicker Man was even more ancient, but less hopeful.  Time has healed many wounds. 

We tussled over Perseus laying down his mirror when I cautioned you against breaking no contact.  It turns out you were ahead of me as I did the same -But I had my mirror at the ready and had planned my conversation like a chess game 6 points behind. (if you remember White Knight to Queen Bishop 3 [I think...])

Life is a strange journey.  To be honest... A mutual friend of Dream Come True and mine asked "if you could undo it -would you have never met her?" I answered unequivocally, without hesitation yes. 

Learning about BPD had been an incredible loss of innocence for me.  Keep in mind I am a man who has shot propaganda movie for the Chinese, US military,  pro and anti tobacco pro and anti alcohol all in all about 500 commercials...  I thought I had seen things... I thought I was aware of the human psyche...  ummmm...

I have never been through an emotional juggernaut like the maelstrom of my time with Dream Come True.  This loss of innocence is not something which can be undone or wished away.  I will never see the world in quite the same blissfully ignorant way I had before meeting her.

I will be fine -but there will aways be a fear in my heart that she will not.  Will she leave a path of emotional destruction?  Likely -but the pain she experiences will be ten fold the pain she shares with her future partners. 

It took me this last year to grow up and realize the world is truly cruel enough to damage people to the point of creating this disorder (and worse).  For my first 50 years I was apparently living a naive dream where parents loved their children and people did what they said they would do. 

It never occurred to me someone could be hurt so badly that they were unable to accept a helping hand.  Not able to remember a loved one when not in their presence.  Not able to understand the causality and repercussions of her actions. 

*** God forbid if alcohol is added to the fray.  Ok... You all know people suffering from BPD are not quick to accept responsibility for their actions right?  I told Dream Come True 'We should probably not drink, because when you drink you forget about us -she said OK I agree.'  We were dry for over a year. 

My naivety was a lovely and it lasted nearly half a century...  All good things come to an end as they say...  I am wiser now, but I truly wonder if I am better for the experience.  Is my life richer for the experience?   Maybe in a Grapes of Wrath meets Scarlet letter sort of a way...


Wicker Man

[Longterm]

@wicker man.

I enjoy reading your posts, your words are gentle and calming.

[Cromwell]

Is my life richer for the experience?   Maybe in a Grapes of Wrath meets Scarlet letter sort of a way...

Or maybe any other of a multitude of English literature references, Poetry, Film, Art, Music.

The symbolism we individually choose to associate to it, bolster up something as irrelevant as a stained ink piece of paper and extract from it some metaphysical meaning.

All that self made, self inward directed propaganda.

I just purged the last of it, last night the music folder id 'overlooked', ---> recycle bin.

We dont have the sort of bandwidth level of discourse here as before, I take that as a sign of progress.

If I didnt want to start becoming more succinct here, or more absent, I know the solution. Just open one of her emails. New material.

Closing the account is on the to-do list. Such a damaging life experience on the one hand, yet holding open the opportunity for influx that can set off an emotional cascade and hamper recovery. I have to write that here or it will never get done. Thanks WM, you know when it comes to a feeling of desperate helplessness,

in the midst of drowning, very few I suspect will discriminate against just who it is that offers the hand that offers to rescue out...

[Wicker Man]

I just purged the last of it, last night the music folder id 'overlooked', ---> recycle bin... 

...holding open the opportunity for influx that can set off an emotional cascade and hamper recovery.

I am keeping the music...  Some of it is still diabolically difficult but I find with time I am able to enjoy it again.  (Moby's Great Escape is still brutal).  It is fascinating to me -The music we chose as the sound track for our time together was hauntingly appropriate (5am Kwamie Liv).  One of the things I found most attractive about her was her sensitivity to art -she helped me see many things in a different light.  She was forever on her phone and some of the pictures she found and shared with me were startling -they cut through reality and brought me briefly into her magical world.  It was marvelous seeing the world through her eyes when I could -therein was my attraction for her -art is visceral.  The best and worst part of her was her sensitivity -sensitivity which periodically incapacitates her.

'Holding open the opportunity' -Therein was the danger of breaking no contact.  It was a calculated risk on my part, which fortunately it left me better off.  As I said previously in this thread I would not necessarily recommend it to anyone else.  All of us and our our situations are unique.  While I was with her I believe I began mirroring her sensitivity, I had let down my guard and opened my heart fully -it was a beautiful and perilous state of being.

My motivation for speaking with her again was two fold.  I had heard from a mutual friend she was still 'waiting for me' -this is after a year of no contact.  Ok(?)...  Whatever waiting for me meant for her, since we had difficulties with her 'waiting for me' while we were engaged...   

I hoped, during this final contact, to give her some closure.  It occurred to me in the end of days my limbic system had full control and I was reacting to the trauma of the life change I had just gone through -I had to quickly grow up and accept I had nearly ended life as I know it. 

I was reacting without as much control as I would have liked. Our end was so sudden and catastrophic I was afraid things between us went unsaid.  Further I had heard she believed her rage was our undoing.  Her rage was not a lot of fun, but I looked at it as 'fair' considering the other benefits her temperament brought to our relationship (at this point I believed her diagnosis as schizophrenic / bi-polar -so rage was part of the 'deal').  Our undoing was her sapping the foundation of my trust.  It was slow, insidious and consistent.  Finally to my point...

I still care about her welfare and I believe what I could offer her was information.  Information if processed correctly, could offer her some insight into what a healthy relationship means.  This is trust and respect in my opinion.  I told her she lost my trust and I was beginning to lose my self respect for being with someone I didn't trust. 

While in the fray the erosion of trust felt like jealousy -I had never been jealous.  It occurred to me one day -wait a minute this is not jealousy... You don't trust her.  She was supposed to come meet me on the movie I was shooting in ChongQing, we had been apart for a couple months (she was on a different movie) -she told me  'There are no flights so I am going to spend a few days in Beijing to see an actor friend.'  It hit me like a wave -Oh God she is doing it again... Ok -I may be 鬼佬 (foreign devil)... But I knew there are 30 flights a day between these two cities...  For someone who lied so often she was terrible at it!

I had never been with someone I did not trust and I believe I simply didn't know how to process the feeling.  How could I not trust someone who says such lovely things to me?  It is really difficult to step out of a system and observe it -throughout my life I have had pretty good luck looking at my life objectively, this time it took me a little while.

The second part of my motivation for breaking No Contact was to take another look in the form of a reality check.  I had spent so much time in rumination after our break up and my minor breakdown -focusing so hard on every conversation. I was afraid I had created unfair bias -could things have really been that out of hand?  Could this lovely human being really be so incredibly dangerous to me?

I spent months drilling down on all of my memories of our time together trying to unravel the cognitive dissonance created by the disparity between her words and her actions.  Once again this, for me, was a completely novel and incredibly confusing state of affairs.  It took me quite a while to accept that she cannot (or maybe will not) stay a course which is safe or nurturing.  I simply had to accept no matter how much she says she wanted a relationship with me, she is incapable of upholding her responsibilities in an intimate relationship.  I believe she wants to, but cannot at this point in her life.

In talking with her this became clear.  Even a year out she stuck to her guns when it came to lying about her 'slip ups'.  I went into the conversation as I had throughout the entirety of our relationship -having the honestly of nothing to lose.  In my mind 'nothing to lose' is an incredibly powerful state of being.  From the very beginning I showed her all of me, my thinking was love it or leave it...  I had not considered there was an alternative... Love it, leave it, torture it a bit...  love it again and then leave.  --but we all live and learn.

This final conversation left me far more at peace.  I gave her a clue which she may or may not follow into recovery and for me I am now certain I did the right thing in walking away.  --I am not in the 'Run' camp.  I do believe people can have relationships with significant others who have personality disorders -this one was just not the right fit for me.

Wicker Man

[Cromwell]

Hi Wicker Man

This past relationship for all the merits of trying to find some explanation. For me there are 2 core points that come before the issue of love or trust.

Simply put, not only did the relationship cause emotional hurt - upset, distress. It was making me mentally ill.

Lies, I can forgive, but the pathology of lies becomes something far more of an issue. Lies that have the impact of causing me to question my sense of reality.

What is the precursor to having a relationship, or even having anything at all; one word, "health"

I am otherwise fortunate to have what I self regard as good physical and mental health. What I did not do is appreciate and respect it better when it was threatened. This neglect came from self esteem issues at the time, excarbated by putting up with abuse and letting the situation get worse.

You come across as a bright, hard working man yet this whole experience led you to a breakdown. It has led you to depressed mood. You put the emergency brake on when you saw that it was going further, and whilst it has been an eye opener for you, this is something that can in time become assimiliated as life experience. I hear you feel a loss of naivety/innocence as having not been exposed to such a relationship. It was an eye opener for me as much as this board is full of people completely flummoxed as to what they have been through.

I suspect when JNChell brought the subject of your wife into this, at least it spawned a question in my mind as to what situation you were in that might have been a push factor. It sounds like your marriage is not something that brought you joy of fulfillment, I read a lot of prose and how strong feelings you had for DTC, but when it comes to your wife the tone is descriptive, much like a sort of emotionally sanitised report style.

I ask myself, was he depressed in marriage and this was a form of escapism which to an extent, overwhelmed some reason. Coupled with the naivety of not yet knowing just what sort of challenge it would be with DTC and her illness. I ask because I recall my own emotional state and vulnerability when I met medusa. It was a low point in my life and there was something about her which even with the start of problems, became a form of escapism from the lifestyle I had been entrenched in, recreational drug use, alcoholism, as a way of ineptly modulating that rut that I was going through.

I look up to you Wicker Man for sensing the danger before you had the opportunity to find out possibly/likely in a way that would have caused even more pain. You protected yourself from the unknown. I continued along in the r/s to learn the hard way and ignore the clear warning signs from what had already started with the cheating. I forgive myself for not ever believing that the things she went on to do that anyone would find a need to. Why would you abuse the person who loves and cares for you? It did not exist in my world paradigm so I never built any safeguards in.

Im 15 years behind you WM, there is not a single day I dont fully make use of my newfound opportunity to turn my back on all things that threaten my health and happiness. I had a lucky escape, have bounced back. in 15 years I hope to not think of myself as unworthy of oxygen nor that I define my life as being related to how society defines me, or anyone else. If this marriage was a significant push factor for what led you to this, I think you owe it to yourself to do some evaluation here because at the minimum, this is keeping you unfulfilled - your needs Wicker Man, that maybe you decided to take charge of and now feel burnt by daring to do so. At worst, your back to square one which have all the underlying factors that can one day push you again.

This dilemma spans further than scope on DTC, even your wife. You left a 2 decade plus marriage behind and was on the road to doing so if this would have panned out differently. Forgive me for being forward but this is a big deal. Youve helped me on this board as well as others, youve said yourself you fulfilled your role as a husband and feel little gratitude for it, you took these qualities to DTC, you still feel concern about her welfare and future. I dont hear anything about your needs, what you want, besides rendering services and now feeling a waste of oxygen. I think you deserve better, deserve happiness, and that what happened happened for a reason beyond the event itself. Fulfilled, happy people dont break out and go on a whim to do something like this.

I think you took the opportunity to break from convention and demanded what had become a bit of an unmet needs backlog that piled up and you could not ignore it any more.

You said awhile back "therapy is far cheaper than a divorce"

Can I ask, (you to ask yourself if not here);

if it was not a case of the financial factors, would you have even bothered (with therapy) at all?

[Wicker Man]

"I ask myself, was he depressed in marriage and this was a form of escapism which to an extent, overwhelmed some reason."

Cromwell your questions are astute and things I have asked myself.  I am going to be out of town this weekend, but will think about what you have written and answer as best I can on Monday.  My therapist is tough on me -he has asked many of these questions.  Your observations are right on point. 

Did I jump from frying pan to fire only to jump back into the frying pan?

One thing I can address succinctly is my marriage was troubled, but I did not understand the compression I was under until the affair.  The beginning of the affair was love at first sight and I clearly lost all manner of reason -I had never experienced or even believed in the phenomenon.  Unfortunately my marriage, battered and unkempt, left me susceptible if not rife for an affair.  This is an explanation, not an excuse I consider my actions childish and abhorrent and I hurt a lot of people, myself included. Hindsight is 20/20.

It would have been wonderful to know how unhappy I had been in my marriage without the affair, so my wife and I could have worked on or dissolved our relationship without the specter of my affair.  However, who knows if I could have gotten her to couple's therapy without it -I had been trying for years.  Even with all that has transpired she no longer wishes to go -this worries me.  No...  I will never have another affair -it is a nasty business.

What has made me willing re-enter my marriage, with some manner of hope, was my wife entering therapy on her own accord -she has since stopped -this too worries me.

This line of discussion feels appropriate for this forum -thank you @JNChell and @Cromwell.


Wicker Man

Postscript: I do not think of myself as a waste of oxygen -not even close.  I am aware of my value and have a healthy sense of self worth -always have.  Seems to be in my firmware.

I was attempting to make a joke about how old people will use inappropriate bandwidth.  E.g. Hitting reply all instead of addressing the intended recipient...  or...  sending a note intended for Cromwell in a thread which potentially the all the members of BPD Family might observe...

[Wicker Man]

...Lies that have the impact of causing me to question my sense of reality.

I was lucky in that the gaslighting I experienced was at arms length and I never accepted it.  I was certainly very confused by what seemed like two parallel realities, but the storylines never converged to the point of doing me harm.  At no point had the balance of power in the relationship swung fully over to her side.  I had retained the power of veto -had I lost this I cannot fully comprehend the potential damage, emotionally and financially, I might have suffered.  If I had made the final commitment and moved I would have literally been left in her hands -I do not think that would have gone my way.

...yet this whole experience led you to a breakdown. It has led you to depressed mood. You put the emergency brake on when you saw that it was going further, and whilst it has been an eye opener for you, this is something that can in time become assimiliated as life experience. I hear you feel a loss of naivety/innocence as having not been exposed to such a relationship.

I have used the term breakdown loosely.  I woke up at 3 am very suddenly and in terror.  All of the data points I had been explaining away seemed to snap into a trend and it became clear to me at once I was stepping off a precipice.  It was the strangest feeling to have my world view snap 90˚ in an instant -it was unique and uncomfortable.  The next day I was shaken, confused, embarrassed and frightened -but I was able to begin damage control.  I had set fire to my life and it was time to douse the flames.

As far as the depression goes -I think I am due.  I made a world class mistake in my intimate relationship(s).  I grossly misjudged the character of my affair partner and had blinded myself to the mess my marriage had become. 

There are further compounding factors.  I am dealing with my first long term injury which has kept me from running for a year and my work has stalled.  I had invested an enormous amount of time working in China and the Chinese film market is in free fall.  (Something about them throwing their biggest star in jail and changing the tax structure for film workers...)  Now I find myself having to rebuild here in the States.  I went from the busiest two years of my career to dead stop last year [worst year since 1989]  -I knew the reason and saw it coming; none of the projects I had worked on in those 2 years had been released (stuck in post production) I had essentially taken a highly paid two year vacation -nothing new to show.  Financially I was fine -but not having the creative release of work caused me to begin devouring myself emotionally.

It sounds like your marriage is not something that brought you joy of fulfillment, I read a lot of prose and how strong feelings you had for DTC, but when it comes to your wife the tone is descriptive, much like a sort of emotionally sanitised report style.

You are astute in your observation.  My marriage has been a mess from the beginning.  My wife moved into my home because her mother (not a good person) was going to pull her out of college.  I let her move in so she could continue her studies in aero space engineering(!) she is a genius and her mother was jealous of her success -so what is a mother to do?  Crush the daughter -child rearing as a scorched earth policy.

Our relationship then got 'rocky'.  My wife (then girlfriend) had rage issues.  It was retroactive jealousy -which is grizzly.  The sufferer feels the same pain as if you have cheated on them. (Ironically Dream Come True's first rages were the same retroactive jealousy)  I did my best in the relationship, but it was not great.  I made the decision to stick with it to avoid sending my wife back to her mother -who would have shredded her for nearly escaping the reign of terror. [Her mother would literally premeditate doing emotional harm to all those in her circle of influence]. 

Ok -staying in a bad relationship to 'save' the other person is not a good idea...  But I was doing the best I could at the time and I aways had the most beautiful mistress -my work.  It seemed every time our relationship would get untenable I would get a call and fly away for work.  Back in the 90s it was all first class flights, wonderful hotels and eye popping meals -work was a dream date.  I later learned this is sublimation -putting one's romantic energy into art or another pursuit.  In those days I was so incredibly happy at work my dysfunctional relationship simply didn't bother me -strange I know.  I guess I was just gone some so much it didn't really matter.

Hell -we actually got married to save capital gains tax on a home I was selling.  Our relationship has been a strange one.  My wife is cold (slowly warming now) -but we make a really good team in a lot of ways.  We have literally never had a fight over money (even when we were looking at dissolution).  When we work on a project we are in lockstep.  We learned from a painter that my wife and I do some of the best molding work in the city -the painter wanted to know who did our panel molding because he wanted a business card.

I ask myself, was he depressed in marriage and this was a form of escapism which to an extent, overwhelmed some reason. Coupled with the naivety of not yet knowing just what sort of challenge it would be with DTC and her illness... ... I ask because I recall my own emotional state and vulnerability when I met medusa

I plead no contest. -It was the ultimate escape.  The inertia from my marriage had weakened me to the point where I started talking to Dream Come True -I knew it was dangerous to have emotional conversations with another woman.  However in that moment I did not care -novel feeling for me.  I had always been the dutiful son (parentified child), the banner husband -in that moment I was acting completely selfishly -novel and in the moment it felt right for me.

I did not feel I was in a vulnerable state.  If fact, I believe it was the very opposite.  I was 'high' on work.  I was doing some of the best work of my career and I noticed Dream Come True on set because her work was some of the best I had seen (SFX makeup). 

When we began speaking she complemented me on my work -I do not accept compliments any faster than I accept criticism.  I have to respect someone before I will accept either --I consider the source.  There has to be a large amount of ego in my work, otherwise all of the various opinions will remove any sort of point of view -creative by comity does not work. 

Anyway...  I asked her what she liked about my work, expecting to hear something silly which would have ended the encounter. Instead it became clear she was 'feeling' the same thing I was -she understood what I was creating through lighting, composition and lens choice.  She understood the tone of the project -this is rare and no easy feat.  It is difficult to see the forest when day by day one sees 'a few trees' over a 100 day project.  Being understood, having my work appreciated and seeing it touch someone was... seductive.  She is touched deeply by art and it is fascinating -so... I lost my mind (please see the other hundreds of posts here...)

I do have to admit a level of prejudice.  I believed family value being a strong force in Chinese culture created a glue for relationships.  Prejudice, whether positive or negative is never warranted.

My dysfunctional marriage had created the tinder (my weakness to avoid temptation) and the spark that ignited it became a conflagration which was nearly fatal.

If this marriage was a significant push factor for what led you to this, I think you owe it to yourself to do some evaluation here because at the minimum, this is keeping you unfulfilled - your needs Wicker Man, that maybe you decided to take charge of and now feel burnt by daring to do so. At worst, your back to square one which have all the underlying factors that can one day push you again.

This is something I have been dwelling on in therapy.  Is returning to my marriage right for me and or my wife?  I hope so.  It is not a cut and dry easy answer.  After 25 years of ups and downs it is difficult to overcome all of this inertial.  I hope we can change our behaviors and modality of communication.  I will certainly keep trying my best.

I think you deserve better, deserve happiness, and that what happened happened for a reason beyond the event itself. Fulfilled, happy people don't break out and go on a whim to do something like this... ...unmet needs backlog that piled up and you could not ignore it anymore.

Thank you and I agree.  I am doing my best to find happiness in a tempered and sane manner (this time).  This experience caused a break in my life -it was a 'tent pole' event, a spike in the data stream.  I am using it to take a hard look at everything in my world.  It has been difficult and time consuming to put every bit of my life under a microscope -but it apparently had to be done.

Yes... I was apparently very dissatisfied with my marriage on a subconscious level -on the surface I felt things were 'better'.  Just before the affair we had just finished renovating a vacation home and we were talking about buying another.

You said awhile back "therapy is far cheaper than a divorce"... ...if it was not a case of the financial factors, would you have even bothered (with therapy) at all?

I think or hope I would have begun therapy even if I were not trying to reconcile.  I found my affair so completely confusing I am very glad to have a professional to talk to about it.  My therapist treats several people suffering from BPD -apparently some people go to 'normal' therapy to help unwind and understand what they are learning in DBT.  He (therapist) has been very helpful in putting me on the right path in moving forward from my affair.  His view of personality disorders is sober and compassionate, hopeful but realistic. 

I have been doing my best to keep a weather eye on how much importance I am giving to financial factors in returning to my marriage.  I do not feel they can be ignored at my age, but they should not be the driving force. 

None of this is easy, but the depression is lifting and I am slowly gaining some lever of understanding and compassion for all those involved.

Wicker Man

[Seekinganswers30]

I tried to get closure last week for a text breakup 3 days after Christmas because I asked my ex why she wanted to spend New Year's eve with her friend instead of with me. She told me at the time that message made me a red flag but not to ask why and I never heard from her again until now. It didn't help.

I asked if we could have a conversation on the phone or in person to respect our relationship instead of ending it by text. She wrote, "I appreciate that you are upset and want closure but I have already done my best to give you that and I have nothing else to say. Please, please, please respect my wishes for us to go our separate ways.

This made me feel ok for a couple days because it showed again how ridiculous she is by thinking she did her best to explain when she has done nothing except call me a flag and never speaking to me again.
Then I started to feel that rejection again. She can't take 5 or 10 minutes to talk to me on the phone? How can someone act like that after all the good times we had? So I know that calling her again is pointless but I still get the urge everyday. So frustrating.

[Cromwell]

Hi Wicker Man

Its good to hear the depression is lifting, it is really strange to report but the depression for me became non existent. The anxiety has really ebbed to insignificance. The worst I get nowadays is I can get triggered like those emails, but it is a case of 2 to 3 days of anxiety, I take a valium, its gone.

How far away do you feel is closure on this? Therapy to me sounds like another form of work - until it is complete it is like a process, part of a sort of daily/weekly checklist.

I need to do it but at the same time im cognisant of the fact that all ive done in these past nearly 5 years is; work. That might seem odd to point out in the context that I am expected to fulfill a role in society and work is seen as a functional, productive, necessary and highly respected form of activity.

I think I worked hardest in my life whilst with BPDx, even though I worked an actual hard, stressful long hours job alongside the relationship/caretaking - it would have been too much to have even just the r/s itself, probably more difficult - the work was very perversely - a paradise of escape from her. Not that I saw it as such at the time and not that I had truly escaped, just out of close proximity for 8 hours.

I have to cut short here WM, apologies, falling asleep on my keyboard. I feel like there is some point or something ive picked up from your posts but I just cant at the moment grasp it. I hope you reach more in life than plain old "content with ones lot", it feels like in the midst of having just been through the mill - a worthy goal "to recover", to beat the blues.

Ill catch up with you later, youve given me a lot to reflect on, going to take time to reflect and digest properly. One of life's journeys challenges, thats all I see it as now. Imagine the accomplishment when/if overcome it. Keeps me going. In the meantime, ive got your back WM. Slow and steady wins this race.

Cromwell

[Wicker Man]

Its good to hear the depression is lifting, it is really strange to report but the depression for me became non existent... ...How far away do you feel is closure on this?

My depression manifested itself in an utter lack of motivation.  There was simply nothing I wanted to do.  I made a list of what I used to do and did those things -it was joyless, but I kept at it.  Slowly the various tasks went from monumental to easier and finally more like fun. 

My wife loves me -but part of her make up was to never give validation.  I had always kept myself up with self edification as a goal onto itself.  Physical and mental fitness for its own sake.  Before my affair this had always been easy for me.  Afterward it was hard to find the motivation to get out and about.

I think because I was a novelty Dream Come True was often commenting on my behavior.  Not gushing praise, but more acknowledging it.  At home excellence is presumed and anything less is met with derision.  During the affair having steaming coffee on her nightstand when she woke up was met with joy.  Actually at first she said... 'What makes you think I want coffee in the morning?'  I said 'Well... you don't like tea (maybe she was actually a spy... No tea?) and I figured if you don't want it I will drink it. --problem solved.  I will simply destroy the evidence and we will never speak of this again.' 

Culturally I was doing a lot of things which were not expected in China -setting up the table for dining (her grand parents had tiny apartment -we ate in the bedroom) clearing plates, helping in the kitchen.  Things that are normal, bonding and fun for me.  I mean... an opportunity to help an 80 year old grandmother cook!  I just got back from paying for cooking classes in Italy...  In China it was free...  (ok... come to think about it...  Ultimately... I paid...)

Anyway I digress...  Going from the validation one experiences during the limerence of a new relationship back into the murky grey waters of no validation was tough.  My wife is really working on it.  It is stilted and almost cute how ham fisted it can sound, but she is really trying (yay!).  It was interesting... My wife said when I came home from the affair 'I needed far too much validation'...  So I took this to my therapist and asked if he sees me as needy in that regard.  He said I will answer you with a question 'If you needed too much validation how could you have stayed in a relationship with some one suffering from OCPD for 25 years?'

The anxiety has really ebbed to insignificance.

I am glad you are through with anxiety Cromwell.  I only experienced it when my fantasy came crashing down -my anxiety was sudden and sharp, and thankfully short lived.   I did not like the sudden realization I was ruining my life -it was less than comfortable.

Therapy to me sounds like another form of work - until it is complete it is like a process, part of a sort of daily/weekly checklist.

Just so.  The goal of therapy is to get out of therapy.  I take it very seriously.  I have an agenda written each week of what I hope to cover -sometimes the session goes in a different direction, but I want to be prepared.  I figure I am paying for the sessions -I want to get everything out of them I can.  It is interesting most weeks my shirt is damp by the end of the hour from the mental exertion. 

I need to do it but at the same time im cognisant of the fact that all ive done in these past nearly 5 years is; work. That might seem odd to point out in the context that I am expected to fulfill a role in society and work is seen as a functional, productive, necessary and highly respected form of activity.

The hardest part of therapy is finding the right therapist.  It is a unique relationship and one must find a good fit.  I stuck with my 3rd one and I have to drive over 90 minutes to see him -it is worth the drive. 

You might find the rest of your life and work easier with therapy.  It is a personal choice and you know better than anyone if your inner dialogue is heathy or not.  If you actions are self perpetuating unhappiness or not.  --Just something to think about. 

At this point we are exploring 'authentic self' and my instinct to protect my wife as a primary mission statement in our relationship.  As a parentified child I always had to be perfect -my brother was a monster and my dad didn't treat my mom particularly well, so it was up to me.  My marriage became a similar dynamic.  I was happy in life in spite of my marriage instead of because of it --so in my case therapy is helping change my view and the communication dynamic of this important relationship.

I think I worked hardest in my life whilst with BPDx, even though I worked an actual hard, stressful long hours job alongside the relationship/caretaking

Ok...  I was still very early on in my relationship with Dream Come True -I think it went to hell at about 18 months.  However, when we were in each other's presence, for the most part, things were really good.  I don't mean manic, I mean really comfortable.  In fact I have mentioned my resting heart rate was about 55 and I was sleeping better than I had in over a decade.  I have heard over and over I make people calm -I heard this from both my parents and most of the women I have dated.  I believe it is part of being parentified as a child. 

I became very attuned to people's emotional and mental states.  I am empathetic to a fault and have always believed it is better to hurt myself than a loved one (parentified child).  I am lucky -perhaps it was being adopted into my family of origin.  I have the innate wiring to preserve my sense of self -but I was 'trained' for codependence.  I have a very firm line in all of my relationships and when crossed my care ends and self preservation begins. 

In every relationship I have worked like hell to not let that line be crossed -I have told every significant other what I want and need in a relationship.  When things start to get bad I talk and talk.  It was only in my marriage that things went from really bad and settled into tolerable as a high point.  Inertia and time had worn me down and I was not able to keep working on the relationship.  I had been trying for 20 year to get my wife to agree to couple's counseling.  Sadly, only the rift of my affair made this happen.

Ugh... back on point... My point being while I was working and Dream Come True was staying with me -even with the stress of working 16 hours a day seven days a week it was one of the happiest times in my life.  Interestingly, enough she knew she lacks object consistency , she knew the wheels would fly off every time we were apart.  She asked if she could work as my assistant and interpreter -because she said 'I am only happy when I am with you'... Which apparently actually meant when I am away from you I will find a new guy in a New York second (really fast)...  Our mutual friend said 'If you were in China the final fight would not have happened'.  I answered 'It is not healthy when I have to sit on my partner's chest day in and day out to keep her from destroying our relationship.' --They had talked about object consistency.  She actually told our friend 'When he is not with me I cannot feel his love'.  --Interesting self awareness.

I have to cut short here WM, apologies, falling asleep on my keyboard.

Cromwell -thank you for taking the time to write.  Your question the other day about my marriage was astute and on point -thankfully it was not a blindsiding.  It is a question front and center in my mind.

I hope you reach more in life than plain old "content with ones lot"

I will do my best to never accept 'well enough' for my life.  I don't think I get another go around, so I want to make the best of the years I have left.  Not in a manic 'Carpe diem' sort of a way but more in the sense of 'Memento Mori' way (remember we all must die). 

Memento Mori to means to me -make good use of one's time, plan for the future -but don't count on it.


Wicker Man

[Cromwell]

Hi Wicker Man

It is difficult for me to underscore a relationship and say she was not a match, end of.

A lot of problems were rooted in and a big part of trying to wean off this addiction, we were too much of a match.

When I read how you got on with DTC, it comes across how relaxed you were in her company, like your blood pressure drop and a feeling of (unusual?) calm. I relate fully here. but what I reflect more on these days is the backdrop to all this. I can take a diazepam and feel just as relaxed except - I did not need to.

At a drop of the hat, it could go the other way. Im sure you can relate here, getting that phone call from her when she said there was no flights. A contrast to that feeling of ease.

So thats the upper/downer addictive mix that breaking away from her is not so much what Ive come across on here likened to as similar to an addiction. Im going further here - for me it was an addiction I just did not rationalise it as such.

The last contact I had, where I got a text 2 days after giving her my number. The response I felt was like having went through a ritual of just relapsing back into addiction. Can you remember how it felt to talk with DTC again? Not so much what was talked. Shawnlam (where the hell is he these days?) pointed out to me that the feeling was anxiety not love. I see it as a mix of many different emotions that got sparked again but ultimately, the root of it is addiction based.

It is powerful stuff. I could write here about the first time I took crack cocaine and I could write about the first time I met her. The parallels of the two are difficult to separate aside. Its why it has helped not to write or reminisce anymore about either. Just like you said to me when stopping smoking, why have the packet of cigarettes on the mantle piece.

WM im sure you could contact DTC at any time, this has been a long time that has passed and you reached out once. My ex is likewise, a few mouse clicks away. But I shun what has proven to be harmful. It has helped to talk it out here, rather than remain with her but in the same way that it is healthier to talk about what it is like to do harmful things rather than actually continue to do them. I do other stuff but im guarding against it and try to set limits. Society does not castigate me that I over-work, the danger here is that it actually is deemed a good thing as opposed to say - being an alcoholic like I once was. But the root of both is addiction and escapism.

ive said here before that my goal was to live a normal life as possible. Im backtracking on this a bit nowadays, my norm of life has been using crutches of some guise or another to muddle through. The downfall and vulnerability here was using my ex as an emotional crutch, judging by the results.

Remember your famous words, scars that will never heal? The way things are going at least how I see it from all this work so far, it has been the mental equivalent of getting involved in a relationship that was way beyond what I could handle and just like picking up a weight in the gym that is beyond current limitations - having to stop and rehabilitate. teared muscle fibres adapt to become stronger, same goes with mental strength, but not by going back the next day and doing the same thing again.

WM youve worked hard id go uncollegiate here (apologies in advance) and say it sounds like more than a passion for your career. Youve said yourself it was a crutch. Workaholism is recognised. The danger here is, what happens when it is not available. Was being with DTC like a potent blend of having this addiction alongside the highs of an affair with her? Like a double hit. Im speculating but it comes across, at the very least im just projecting what I believe happened in my own circumstances.

WM not sure what you make of all of this, but whatever the negatives have been at least I can say this whole thing as ended up being enlightening to say the least. I'll stop here because you are someone I could end up talking to all day,  

thanks and im concious of the opportunity cost of therapy too, it has to be allocated and have its place and limits as much as anything else. It seemed counter productive at first, but taking a break or holiday from therapy has itself helped noticeably. (Reflecting on Reflecting). Thanks WM.    

[Wicker Man]

...how relaxed you were in her company... ...[suddenly] it could go the other way. Im sure you can relate here, getting that phone call from her when she said there was no flights. A contrast to that feeling of ease.

Since we were both so busy working over the 18 months of our relationship we only spent perhaps 3 months actually in each other's company -nearly all of it was nice.  The strife was when we were apart.  She actually talked to our mutual friend after the relationship about her lack of object consistency -naturally she didn't use that term, but spoke of not being able to feel my love when I was not with her.  --I believe, even as strange at things were in our relationship we were still in the 'honeymoon' phase.  

(As time goes on I have begun to prefer to not use some of the fashionable BPD nomenclature -I have begun to wonder...  Perhaps the more we separate our experiences from normal relationships the more difficult it is to emotionally process them.)

While we were speaking a couple months ago [lull in NC]  I explained the idea of a 'Love Map' (Dr. John Gottman).   This is a series of heady experiences a couple, still crazy in love (limerence) can look back on when inevitably the going gets tough later in the relationship.  E.g. Pretended to hit my head on a door frame, because she said 'caution' in Mandarin -I pretended I didn't understand (exploiting her compassion as a human -you know... bonding)...  These sort of experiences, in a healthy relationship, should create an emotional glue which might serve to hold a couple together later in life.

I explained to her our 'honeymoon' phase included her frequent raging, lying, perhaps cheating and nearly never doing anything I asked (down to ridiculously easy things -like please go to the corner and buy yogurt... Since I was working 16 hours the request felt reasonable...).  I asked 'Does this seem like we were building something which could have lasted?'  'Were our first experiences something we could look back on and find strength in once we had serious issues like a death in the family or illness to contend with?'  --Now certainly there was plenty of incredible experiences which would have fit the bill, but the severity of the dysfunctional cast a pall.

I think this final conversation worked out well for us because I went into it with a plan and no part of that plan was to hurt her feelings or make her feel badly.  I made it through the entirety of our relationship without every raising my voice to her or calling her a bad name -and I didn't want to break my streak.  Selfishly I wanted to make sure, after a year of rumination, I was remembering the relationship as it had been from my perspective.

So thats the upper/downer addictive mix that breaking away from her is not so much what Ive come across on here likened to as similar to an addiction. Im going further here - for me it was an addiction I just did not rationalise it as such.

From the very beginning I likened my experienced with her and a schedule 1 narcotic -high abuse potential, no medical use, and severe safety concerns (now this description makes me laugh... ugh... perfect).  Further, I very firmly believe one of the aspects of BPD behavior which makes these relationships remarkable as well as remarkably difficult to process is the variable reward schedule precipitated by their tendency toward binary thinking and push pull behavior.  I often when from 'The one' to someone being raged at over a relationship I had with someone she had never met (retroactive jealousy was the focus of nearly all her rages).

The last contact... ...The response I felt was like having went through a ritual of just relapsing back into addiction. Can you remember how it felt to talk with DTC again?

Before I (briefly) reopened contact I had talked the idea over with my therapist and spent a good bit of time working through an agenda.  I remarked immediately she is, in fact, one of the most charismatic people I have ever spoken with.  I remembered why I fell in love with her and I have to say her laugh is musical and child like.  For the first day of our exchange we just talked and caught up.  She very frequently made remarks inferring we were still together and even alluded to some future plans; I just let these comment slide.  -The conversation was light and lovely, however I did not feel like I was on a slippery slope.  Once we began speaking seriously it became obvious she has no ability to accept responsibility, no interest in talking about things she lied about and therefor at this point in her life, in my opinion, is incapable of having a healthy relationship.  For me I learned there is no point in speaking to this human being, because she lies continuously. -I still hope she can work things out and have a good life.  I bear her no animosity or ill will.  --I still do miss the idea of her and the future which could have never been --The reality was very stark by comparison.

Shawnlam (where the hell is he these days?) pointed out to me that the feeling was anxiety not love.

There was little to no intersection much less union is his philosophy and mine.  I ended up having to look up 'Red Pill' to see what in the wide wide world of sports he was talking about...  In my day we called in mysogeny.

Anyway... back on point...  Anxiety was rare for me -but I don't think I was in the relationship long enough to get both barrels.  As my therapist said 'You dodged a bullet' and I corrected the bullet didn't hit center core mass, but I got hit pretty hard.

Just like you said to me when stopping smoking, why have the packet of cigarettes on the mantle piece.

The parallel for me and smoking is very apropos.  Smoking was something she and I shared, but more importantly quitting our relationship was much like quitting smoking.  I was quitting something which felt really nice because intellectually I knew it could do me grievous harm in a yet unforeseen future.

WM im sure you could contact DTC at any time, this has been a long time that has passed and you reached out once. My ex is likewise, a few mouse clicks away. But I shun what has proven to be harmful.

I no longer give the relationship the power of classifying contact as harmful -it is instead pointless.  I delivered the message I felt she needed and hopefully she will process it correctly.  I didn't mention BPD, but I spoke to her about what a healthy relationship looks like from my perspective.  I spoke to her about not using sex as a tool or a weapon, because she has so much more to offer.  I explained rage is fear and when you truly love someone consider telling them you are afraid -and then see what happens to your rage.  She said 'So you just wanted to talk to me to say bad things?'  I said 'No I wanted to talk to you because I feel you are a lovely human being who has some bad habits' -she accepted this.  --Everything has now been said.

It has helped to talk it out here, rather than remain with her...

I firmly believe, at least in my case, there is no way Dream Come True could help me in any way after the relationship.  She can barely function as a trust worthy intimate partner -an intimate friend?  Completely off the table.  

It has always concerned me when I read about people here wanting to 'continue as a friend' with their BPD ex-partners .  Dream Come True makes such horrible life choices it would kill me to watch this slow motion train wreck. --I truly did love her and I simply don't want to know about what she does now that my watch is done and my influence over here is no more.  I.e. she and I had made some progress -she stopped drinking, stopped cutting, the voices she heard were lessoning, visual hallucination was gone, she no longer hung up the phone when angry.  I put a lot of work into trying to help her feel safe and loved -I do not care to see her life without this shaky foundation she and I had created.

Remember your famous words, scars that will never heal?

I should have know better than sink to hyperbole... particularly in writing...  but you know what?  I don't know how far I was from the truth.  I am aware of so much more than I was before.  I had never met someone in such psychic pain. Knowing there are people in searing pain day in day out and having loved one of them has left a mark on me.  This is this loss of innocence I have spoken of a few times.  Intellectually, I knew there were parents treating their little children so badly the children pay for it for the rest of their lives -but it is different now having loved one of these children so deeply.  

... [Wicker Man's] workaholism is recognised. The danger here is, what happens when it is not available. Was being with DTC like a potent blend of having this addiction alongside the highs of an affair with her?  Im speculating but it comes across, at the very least im just projecting what I believe happened in my own circumstances.

Unequivocally yes.  I have mentioned a few times she was an extension and personification of my work.  Work was one of the main things we had in common -most of the free time we had together was spent watching and talking about content (TV / Movies).  What will I do once I have had my last day on set?  This is a good question and one I ponder.  There are plenty of things I like doing -but none of them is as satisfying as film.  

However, with last year as a shot across the bow I may consider a new vocation next year if 2019 is slow.  As much as I love it... work is work and I have to be honest with myself about whether my career is still viable.  I am pretty good at what I do and I think things will be fine -but I have been keeping an eye on it.  I have two movies releasing in May -so things should pick up.

...whatever the negatives have been at least I can say this whole thing as ended up being enlightening.

There and Back Again...  Yes... it has been eye opening.  

'My life, when it is written, will read better than it lived.' -From Lion in Winter

This is the sort of an adventure which makes a better story than a life experience.  

Wicker Man

[Cromwell]

Hi Wicker Man

Has any of this had an effect on your work or productivity?

I recall back when I was studying pre-college, you mentioned to me something along the lines of not procrastinating from the work. It helped and stuck with me, although it was not procrastination I think, I think it was having to simultaneously fulfill two on going roles. I notice it less this year at college for the reason, the workload is so challenging by it self, I have what feels no time to afford to it, I know I would fail otherwise. I think my concern here is, college is finished in 3 weeks and Im apprehensive. Each time I have had a holiday period it has coincided with the return of ruminations, a sign that this has not been squared away. Can you relate to this much with your own experience with the workaholism?

Im just wondering when you mention that work has slowed down, if this has also meant less of being able to distract yourself from it. My goal is to just build on what is working so far. I can envisage work being my solace until I collapse from it and I cant see any downsides to it. As time goes by I think this out of sight out of mind is working too, the monster has died down significantly from what it once was, through lack of attention and feeding. Its why I refrain from coming here to talk as much about it - her - and let the written word entrench itself.

After reading some of the incidents you describe with DTC, it comes across to me a feeling that there was something there beyond the "good" times and her "nice" demeanour, that was evident enough to unsettle you and put question marks over the relationship.

I think what one of the - if not "the" most difficult things I faced in therapy was to approach a related question that I uprooted. It was a feeling that, beyond the lies and deceit that were then categorialised very crudely imo as "bad times"

I started to question the, so-called "good times" too.

Was she really a nice person that made me feel good. Or was she just very good at "pretending" to be nice? and following on from this - that rather than being too naive not to discern the difference, the opposite is what led to disaster. That I actually could see through the rhetoric, like to witness a bad actress that stumbled through her lines as convincing as she could, and it was painful to confront, it did not align with what I hoped for, wished for, or had fallen in 'love' for.

She unmasked herself, 3 months in. So how did this ever protract itself the way it did? I think I was so shellshocked, blindsided, I dont know the term to use, heartbroken, disenchanted, its like a blend of it all with neither really fitting best.

I think I just couldnt handle the situation, at that particular juncture in my life, so much had happened prior that I struggled to cope with, this could have been at any other firmer ground, dealt with practically, clear headed. There is a back story of grief that is pre-relationship that I was also mismanaging, viz a viz drug and alcohol as crutches. The r/s started at a point I was vulnerable and whilst coping well in practical terms, she swept into my life like something dream like, to parallel your experience. I grasped for it like someone struggling does, I believed in her, put my faith into her and saw her as this cliche "the one" as a result of my mindset at the time.

It has brought some solace, because regardless of the things she did and I fully believe they were intended to cause hurt/upset/grief. I dont believe she did it with the cognisance or empathy to know just - how - hurtful any of it would be, and I also did not express, show or convey to her the extent.

Actually I carried this, repressed it, and carried on the rollercoaster for 2.5 years more, collecting bits here and there of more stored up emotional problems that would need unwinding in future.

So anyway, when JNChell mentioned your wife and it sort of resonated a bit in my own case. There is a backstory here, its fine to psychiatrise and analyse (analysis paralysis) and do the whole post mortem trying to turn over each and every stone of what happened. but the pre-relationship back story I started to give more attention to and it helped to reconcile more self-awareness of the shaky rotten foundation that the r/s was built upon in the first place. It was really a moribund-impossible relationship from the start from any rational, objective view. Except I was not in a state to think in such terms at the time, swayed by the emotional current of what felt good, as an escapism for what otherwise in my life, did not.

Ive been on this board for a long time, one theme that crops up over and over, almost ubiquitously, "made me feel good" or words to that effect. "The good times".

I can rationalise what I went through better, to unpackage my own similar feelings and narrow this down to a shared human need of, wanting to "feel good".

To be honest, if it would not have been her, it would have been the drink, the drugs, or another girl. I would not have even known her to end up resultingly "traumatised".

Im not traumatised, although, some of the stuff I witnessed can be objectively marked as trauma worthy. I got through it, the "bad" days (and I say this term a bit tongue in cheek, because i dislike the notion of using such an infantile based word as "bad" to convey properly what it really was). I struggle to find a suitable descriptor for what it was, nightmare, hellish, they sort of fit but dont, I resist trying to categorise it.

What I can say factually, they are now "bygone" days, layered increasingly in history. Shes gone, life has moved on, but only as a result of taking pragmatic action to commence a change.

Youve used the words "pointless", I feel the same, but it had to get to that stage, I think it helped to resume some LC with her to exchange texts for a few weeks and see from a more clearer perspective how my feelings had changed and how I knew that there was nothing here that was salvageable. Beyond pointless, it would be folly, as you said at the time "playing with fire again". I believe in that as much as I built myself up to not feel I deserve to go through another round of it. Once that distraction was gone, it opened my eyes to an array of prior to neglected problems. The stuff that was sidelined but did not just magically disappear. A long with a huge amount of trying to play catch up with those in my life that I love, not loved, but had been kept in the background of the 'story'.

Yea WM, there is plenty of work to keep me busy. Too much, nowadays - thankfully - it has by itself became a crutch of sort that I can immerse myself into. I have no choice, I would fail otherwise, I cannot give the luxury of time to reflect on all the nuances of the r/s, or unreconciled emotions. I sort of come here from time to time and parse them out in a more slower detoxification sort of way.

Sometimes with work (over working) it reaches a point of diminishing returns. At least ive found that and specifically including "therapy" as a form of work (which I regard it as being). I know you say you want to get the most out of it because you pay for it, but its just a thought about have you considered maybe taking a break from it? Are the sessions too pre-planned and intense? Are you preparing for them too methodically and not allowing the thoughts and questions to flow more spontaneously?

I thought these psychologists deal with an interest in summoning up the subconcious and there is an interest in that. Im just thinking that if you are going in too pre-scripted that maybe this might be thwarting and undermining that process?

When you mentioned about her not going to the corner to buy a yoghurt, after youve spent 16 hours working. It sort of casted my mind back to how you felt about your wife not appreciating you beyond the work you do (as taken for granted) - I wonder if there is any cross over that started to emerge with DTC?

It all sounds to me like youve been fighting some version of war on two fronts not just one. This situation with your wife is pre-relationship structural stuff that paved the way to this happening or at least, enough dynamics there that allowed the possibility of an affair and a bit of sensory override. You brought a stop to this with I think 1 week to spare? Not sure what the story would have resulted in differently had you not.

At the same time, I just cant get my head around why you were so honest to tell your wife you had an affair in the first place, when you say in retrospect that it is cheaper than a divorce. Would she have ever found out otherwise?

You know there was some sense of self satisfaction, not in smugness or juvenile behaviour, but really it was therapeutic psychologically, when I slept with her best friend. But I did it the day after I split up with her and I did not do it in a calculated pre planned way. I was in my own mind finished with her.

The issue is getting all that attention again all of a sudden, being spoken to "nice" like on the first day of the r/s. It was therapeutic in an unexpected way. I had plenty of opportunities to walk away and save face, protect the ego, but I never consolidated or rounded off or detached. Back to play with fire again thinking id done enough to "make a point", it only upped the ante and set new challenges and higher flaming hoops to jump through.

how much of this affair can be symbolised as an outward form of expression of pent up resentment. You dont sound like the guy who shouts or argues much, more of an actions peak louder type?

possibly just projecting here.

Ill see you later WM, its 3am head hitting keyboard again time .

I can crystal ball my future already, work being the loyal but once lost now reconciled only best friend and collapsing asleep each night. It works ill give it that. You know I heard of some psychology experiment they paid the test subjects a good wage to dig a hole, the next day to fill it back then, then repeated the circuit. Despite the good pay they soon lost all the 'workers'. I cant recall it but it fits in with my thoughts on what you said the r/s not being so much harmful as "pointless".

I think 3 years in and I woke up that morning, got another weird cryptic text, the ghosting NC commenced and i indirectly made a point of symbolising it all as "pointless". No dramatic to and fro shouting, bickering, arguments, those were shelved as pointless to, I wasnt hurt by any of it any more for a long time prior, what point is there in expending that energy. My life felt suspended in animation and equally pointless.

exhuming her ghost from time to time also started to become pointless. Cant behead a ghost.

a pointless waste of my life game I just refused to play anymore. the day that clicked was the best day.

[Wicker Man]

--I just had a catastrophic problem with the text editor and lost about 90 minutes of writing.  So... rather than begin again, with a much darker view of the world and life in general, I am going to pour myself a whisky and take a crack at responding tomorrow morning. 

--the problem may be withy my machine(?) the cursor kept jumping to the bottom of the 'excerpt' I tried to do a copy all and somehow only got your post on my clipboard. Anyway... likely operator error -but this knowledge does not make me any happier.  I am a fan of accountability, but abhor abject failure...

Usually... I am pretty good with computers.  I got my first Apple 2+ in 1979.  I have never been to the 'Genius Bar' because one may never call oneself a genius -that is for other people to do...  I think same goes for 'poet' now that I mention it...  One can say 'I am a writer'  and someone else can say 'you are a poet'...  Apparently... I have a deep seated respect for poets and a bit of contempt for self aggrandizing people...

--Cromwell your post has a lot to absorb and I will do my best to process it and answer thoughtfully.

Ok... Off to the whiskey... 

Wicker Man

[Wicker Man]

Has any of this had an effect on your work or productivity?

Actually, yes and no.  I turned down a couple of movies which were to shoot in China right after our break up.  I did this for a couple reasons: firstly I needed to be away from Dream Come True and secondly I needed time here in the US if there was any hope of reconciling my marriage.  However, when I am on set I function as I always have -my job requires so much and is so rewarding any ‘real life’ problems wash away until wrap is called at the end of the day.  E.g. When my father had cancer it was always on my mind, until I was working.  At the end of the day my concern came washing back -he and I spoke on the phone nearly every day.  He taught me my job and he missed being able to work, so we often spoke about how my work was going. 

…my concern here is, college is finished in 3 weeks and I’m apprehensive. Each time I have had a holiday period it has coincided with the return of ruminations… … work has slowed down, if this has also meant less of being able to distract yourself from it.?

Definitely, 2018 being slow for me created far too much unstructured time.  Unfortunately, I didn’t always make very good use of this time -lots of rumination.  I did the best I could to help my recovery (lots of reading), and perhaps I will be better off in the long run, having not hid from the pain and confusion my situation had created.  ***Make sure to have some activities planned to keep you feeling good.  I would have loved to just have kept busy and plowed through, but maybe this sort of escapist repression would have created trouble for me in the future.

…the monster has died down significantly from what it once was, through lack of attention and feeding. Its why I refrain from coming…

I also had to distance myself from this community.  It was hard, there are a lot of wonderful people here, but I know I was keeping my attachment to Dream Come True alive on some level by continuing to write about it.  I returned after breaking no contact, because I believed my situation was unique and posting about it may have been helpful to others.

After reading some of the incidents you describe with DTC, it comes across to me a feeling that there was something there beyond the "good" times and her "nice" demeanor, that was evident enough to unsettle you and put question marks over the relationship… …beyond the lies and deceit that were then categorialised very crudely imo as "bad times"

There were quite a few data points of deviant behavior which I had explained away in the moment.  Individually most of these incidents could have been the result of misunderstandings between us or growing pains in the relationship -after each one of these events I spoke with her about them and how they made me feel.  The conversations seemed to go well and it seemed she understood my expectations.  I was gravely mistaken.  Yes she understood, but did not have the executive function to be able to resist impulsive and destructive behavior.

It was not until the end of days the trend in the data field became brutally clear.  I was unaware of BPD until perhaps a month after our break up, I wasn’t looking for red flags -I had never been lied to in a relationship, so I was used to taking things at face value from loved ones. 

…Was she really a nice person that made me feel good. Or was she just very good at "pretending" to be nice? … …I actually could see through the rhetoric, like to witness a bad actress that stumbled through her… … She unmasked herself, 3 months in

I have done literally hundreds of hours of reading no BPD.  I have read everything I could get my hands on from psychological studies, co-morbidities of BPD with other disorders and so on.  What was quite interesting was reading autobiographical posts from people suffering from BPD on Quora and Reddit.  I wanted to do my best to try to have a glimpse of the world Dream Come True lives in.  I wanted to try to learn if there was malicious intent -I truly do not believe so.

Further I do not believe she was 'acting'.  We all know the rush of limerence -the drug like high of new love.  People suffering from BPD are more sensitive than neuro-typical people -I believe limerence hits them even harder, I believe they feel like they have found ‘the one’ and finally all of their pain will go away.  So with this in mind the first 3 months you experienced was perhaps your girlfriend believing you were her salvation -this was the real her while experiencing the elation of limerence.  Both the good and the bad are the result of extreme fluctuations in emotional state.  Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder is another way to describe BPD -they are trying to get away from the stigma of the BPD label.

Dream Come True's manifestation of limerence was interesting.  She told me when she first saw me I was glowing and everyone else around me was grey.  Trust me I am not photoluminescent… but I believe she literally saw me this way.  She suffers from both auditory and visual hallucinations and sees things other cannot (makes her one hell of an artist)  -so I believe she experienced this love at first sight and in a very unique and, for me, unfathomable manner.  So of course she was exuding love -she believed she found what she had always been looking for...  Just like the last guy...  ...and the next...

I only spent 18 months in this relationship, but I saw no Machiavellian planning.  Yes… she lied, but it was in an attempt to cover up impulsive behavior she found shameful.  I believe as a coping mechanism she has compulsions which are destructive and after the moment of passion realizes what she has done -which creates a feedback loop of shame and further maladapted attempts to cope. 

All of this was her. The Good, the Bad and the Ugly.  One person who was just trying to get through the day.  I have read over and over from people with BPD saying the thought of suicide is daily!  They don’t act on it or mention it to anyone else, but the thought is ever present.  So we wonder why they are erratic and seem 'self absorbed'?  I believe there is no room for anything beyond the need for emotional survival.  If I were injured and backed into a corner you can bet I would fight with everything I have to escape.

…I was vulnerable and whilst coping well in practical terms, she swept into my life like something dream-like… … put my faith into her and saw her as this cliche "the one" as a result of my mindset at the time.

I have read many people saying similar things.  Yes, my marriage was grey, but I felt really quite strong when I met Dream Come True.  I believe down deep I always wanted to believe in fairytale love -when I found someone who seemed to be living breathing proof I suspended disbelief.  I let myself be swept away in a lovestory.  As someone who has worked in advertising, I was a natural cynic, and this had always served me well.  I let down my guard and let myself believe the love story I had been peddling to sell beer, cars and various other things.  Hoist on my own petard…

Interestingly, because of cultural differences I took at face value many of the nice things she was saying about me.  Never met anyone like you -well… of course not.  Further her friends and family were saying the same things about us -they were all glad we were together.  So I still to this day feel I had plausible deniability for giving my heart to this badly wounded person.  I thought cultural family bonds and love was a panacea.

As a side note -one of my friends in China said “I drink Red Bull before sex to make me powerful…”  ummm…  Yep… foreplay is not universal in China.  When Dream Come True said I was a great lover I said no I am not, you are just used to uncaring brutality and going to sleep crying.  She began to weep.  So -yes I do believe on many levels I was unique to her experience.  Crazy things like me seeing women as equals...

…empathy …

This is an interesting topic when it comes to BPD.  I believe, unless there is a strong NPD (or worse comorbidity) people with BPD do feel empathy, they are just hurting too badly to show it.

So anyway, when JNChell mentioned your wife and it sort of resonated a bit in my own case. There is a backstory here… …escapism…

Yes.  My affair was going to be a great escape and one I had perhaps always yearned for.  My affair promised a life in a foreign county, living with someone as passionate about film as I, learning language and culture, having a very strong family unit (grandparents living with us and a baby).  Life was going to be hard, but incredibly interesting.  I was going to trade money and security for passion and experiences.  The fantasy was pretty great.

The reality would have been catastrophic.  There is little hope for a relationship with someone suffering from BPD without phycological intervention for both parties in the relationship. The breakup / makeup cycle would have destroyed me since my home, visa, and work would have been tied to the relationship -so when she broke up with me at our end she might as well have been saying ‘I will kill you’.

To be honest, if it would not have been her, it would have been the drink, the drugs, or another girl.

When I met Dream Come True I thought I was happy in my life.  My wife and I were talking about buying another home and getting an expensive car when I finished the fateful movie.  I was not looking for an escape -but one found me and I was apparently open to it.  I am sorry you found yourself in so much pain before your relationship.  I am glad it seems like you are doing well now.

… life has moved on, but only as a result of taking pragmatic action to commence a change.

Yes! Time does not necessarily heal, time spent well in soul searching, honestly looking at oneself creates healing.  This is something I learned here on BPD Family.  It takes work to heal an emotional fracture on such a grand scale.

Youv’e used the words "pointless", I feel the same, but it had to get to that stage, I think it helped to resume some LC with her to exchange texts for a few weeks and see from a more clearer perspective

I described talking to Dream Come True as pointless after breaking no contact and speaking to her about lies.  She stuck to her guns and did not wish to confront them.  Once I realized she cannot accept accountability, introspect and grow, it became clear that this lovely person is not ready for a healthy relationship at this point in her life.

Sometimes with work it reaches a point of diminishing returns… …"therapy" … … Are [your] sessions too pre-planned and intense? Are you preparing for them too methodically and not allowing the thoughts and questions to flow more spontaneously?

This is a valid point and one I have considered.  Although I come to each session with an agenda I am fully willing to go ‘off book’ if the flow of the discussion warrants it.  I need to keep going, at this point much of the discussion revolves around my marriage and communication skills.  People with OCPD are not great communicators and emotionally quite cold.  Sadly, I am essentially doing couple’s counseling alone -trying to set a good example.  My wife really needs to get back into therapy.  Her inner dialogue is quite brutal.  I wrote in my journal early last year ‘The contempt has to stop’ - I meant the contempt she has for herself.

When you mentioned about [Dream Come True] not going to the corner to buy a yoghurt, after youve spent 16 hours working. It sort of casted my mind back to how you felt about your wife not appreciating you beyond the work you do - I wonder if there is any cross over that started to emerge with DTC?

In the case of Dream Come True she was having some sort of a crisis she wouldn’t speak about -I asked several times.  She ghosted two close friends during this time and changed the color of her hair (this apparently can be a tell for a BPD girl in crisis).  I believe she could not leave the room, because she needed the constant social medial dopamine hits to survive the day.  The net result of 'neglect' is similar, but the root causes are different.  My wife is incredible about keeping up our household, but the idea of a complement is foreign to her.  Dream Come True had no idea of what it takes to live in real life (didn't know how to pay the gas bill), but was very kind when it came to compliments. 

It all sounds to me like youve been fighting some version of war on two fronts not just one.

Yes -going from affair back to reconciliation does not leave room for usual mourning of a lost relationship.  The moral of the story is don’t have affairs -they are a nasty business.

You brought a stop to this with I think 1 week to spare? Not sure what the story would have resulted in differently had you not.

I would have bought a house for Dream Come True’s family had a baby and then, I should guess, at some point all hell would have broken loose.  Remember Dream Come True at one point in her youth tore the floor out of her grandparent’s home…

At the same time, I just cant get my head around why you were so honest to tell your wife you had an affair in the first place... ... Would she have ever found out otherwise?

For someone who had an affair I still to this day style myself as a good and honest man.  Telling my wife was the right thing to do in a very bad situation.  Yes -perhaps I could have ‘gotten away with it’ but I believe in the long run honesty was better.  –Some people say don’t tell, others disagree. 

… when I slept with her best friend. But I did it the day after I split up with her and I did not do it in a calculated pre planned way. I was in my own mind finished with her.

Well…  Neither of you were at your best at the end of your relationship.  I would never do anything to try to hurt Dream Come True -she does just fine on her own.  I didn’t need to add any fuel to the fire she has burning in her soul.  There was a time when you spoke about wanting some manner of retribution for your relationship -I am glad this has passed for you.  No good comes from revenge.

…how much of this affair can be symbolized as an outward form of expression of pent up resentment. You dont sound like the guy who shouts or argues much, more of an actions peak louder type?

None.  I never stopped loving my wife -I felt I needed to move on, but I wanted to do as little harm as possible.  I felt our relationship was not giving me what I needed and in the moment felt I needed to end it.  Even when I thought I was leaving I was doing up keep on our home and putting things in order for my wife.  I met with a therapist to try to figure out the least painful way to end my marriage.  He said ‘You are a dick, but I see why she married you.’

You know I heard of some psychology experiment they paid the test subjects a good wage to dig a hole, the next day to fill it back then, then repeated the circuit. Despite the good pay they soon lost all the 'workers'

I am a strange animal -if the day rate was right I could happily dig holes.  For me part of work is to ensure my future security.  Sometimes work is no fun and I feel I am selling my life for dollars.  The last movie I did in China I had no respect for the directors and they simply did not understand my job -so that was 65 days of digging holes at a very reasonable day rate.

…exhuming her ghost from time to time also started to become pointless. Cant behead a ghost.

Living well is truly the best revenge.  I have often hoped Dream Come True can overcome having pushed me away.  She had my sir name tattooed on her hand 3 months into no contact.  She is tragic.

[Wicker Man]

--I just had a catastrophic problem with the text editor

I figured out I had reached character limit on the post so the editor was jumping to the end of the post and deleting characters. 

[Cromwell]

Hi Wicker Man

Thanks for sharing im feeling better for it. The thing that stands out in all of this is the "love" word.

Falling in love and in such a small space of time, then having to deal with finding closure. You were with her 18 months but 3 months together. No-one has put out a set time frame on how long it takes to love someone, let alone "know" someone.

Ive spent more time post relationship "getting to know" her than the years together. Same goes for you by the sounds of it - the research. Ive known cats longer than her and I didnt love any of them. My issue, not unknown of and hard from being seen as rare - at that stage where I met her, despite being emotionally numbed, I had an unhealthy desperation for both being loved and loving another. Then it seemed like it just felt from the sky and it couldnt have came at a more (seemingly then) fortuitious time.

if there is a story worth telling here, it is or more accurately - was - a very sad one. One that when acknowledged as such, propels me to wish to "moving on swiftly" now from.

Im in my mid 30s, I relate to what you say about working as a way towards financial security but I had reached that point before meeting her. Someone posted here not long ago that "Borderlines seek out and are attracted to losers". I tried to take it on board to reflect just as I do all the other theories but it is hard to figure out what I have actually "lost" here.

there was not a real sense of love in the first place, so I have not truly suffered a loss. This is not a new relevation, I said already early on in my therapy here I did not love her.

Sometimes it is the idea of falling in love that can induce the same feelings as love itself and if not allowed to be kept seperate, leads to this. I was not actively pursuing love, it just seemed to come out of nowhere and I latched on to it. It was retrospectively, the achilles heel weakpoint. Otherwise, in the context of being a "loser" at the time, I was enjoying a hedonistic, self centred, productive life where my only real issue was beyond this an emotional emptiness or void that id felt id had everything else, had done everything id wanted to do. Its hard to "lose" when there isnt even a goal or wish, or want, to strive for anymore. At the ripe age of 32 id felt otherwise accomplished.

In practical, simple, real world terms, she amounted to an insult, in the medical term of the word and it was something I could not continue on with let alone how much id want to. The "wanting" part had near but vaporised as time went on and I got to know more about her too.

It sounds like you feel a lot of sorrow for her Wicker Man, sympathy.

Sympathy gets me every time, and it was the root misunderstanding for conflating it for love.

Wicker Man thank you for all you have done. I recall I was asked way back to contribute to the first post you created here. It was interesting at the time to reflect on what my thoughts were in the midst of my own emotional strife, wishing to help you out. It helped after a few posts to realise the converse started to seem true. When you left the board for an interlude, I assumed that "he must of got over his issues, no surprise there". Little did I know you were contacting her, the thing you warned me against? hypocrite

Which is the subject of this topic that I apologise for mildly deviating from. Wicker Man,  I am having to stop procrastinating from work, it felt previously that my college work was a walk in the park compared to therapy. I used to think of therapy as a form of self indulgence 1st world pleasure reserved for people like failing rock stars and celebs. It is the hardest thing ive had to do and I refute the therapists (2 of which) suggested I should be one. It is something I need to do in bite size portions, my life up until now has been finding myself in places as an accidental-rescuer, non equipped yet wanting to - since my childhood, career options - the bit where I am a soft touch is, not able to witness suffering and walk by it, yet, not equipped to provide the real help that is needed. Sure I can listen, or devote my life to hanging around as company - misery likes company, but it starts to infect the spirit over time - im not cut out for it.

see you in a few weeks I have to get these exams out the way, I guess I feel optimistic that this will be squared away, I feel closer to it as each day goes on and making concious efforts to make this more of a historic event. I feel little reason why it cannot be seen or made as such. Every relationship, regardless of good days, bad days, love or what not, has a sand timer attached. It lasted as long as it was meant to be.

Being here has been like trying to get out of quicksand, it takes care and time and a bit of help. What about BPDx and her misfortunes? I will not sacrifice my own wellbeing anymore, I did for long enough. I only help people who want to be helped, there is no other way than to jump in and join in as company in drowning. No thanks, I value my life as worth more than that now even if I didnt back then. You did not stick around for destruction either and despite whatever upset suffered, only a fool would have continued forward.

My ex does not hold a monopoly on suffering, or knowing how to milk sympathy for all that its worth. The kindness I gave, it started to reflect back to me as 'stupidity' the more I got to really know her. It was not stupidity, it was too trusting and dealing with the result of having that broken. Trying to build up anything where trust is gone is (borrow your word) pointless, I know from 2.5 years trying to go against what I should already have known better. I can forgive myself for it Wicker Man in the "forgive him o Lord for he knows not what he is doing" vein of things. There will be no doubt more stupidity to come and thats fine too, but just not involving her and drawing that line under it became critical rather than optional.

Revenge? She can have her bad days and find someone she deems "more stupid" to help her out. In their mindset, a sucker is born every minute.

That realisation, that I hid from mentally, had to become appropiated for what it is. A harsh reality. Indicative of a disorder that I have no power to ever fix but instead choose to no longer participate in or tolerate. She is not rare in this and neither is DTC, there are millions upon millions to "love" if that is what was so important for me to do at any stage in life. Ive probably already bypassed quite a few ive dated since, I call that progress based on life experience.

Decouple yourself from this burden Wicker Man, it has never been your responsibility in the first place. Same goes I would start reflecting seriously on where you want your life to get out of this depression with your wife scenario rather than to use the coping mechanisms to adapt around it. This experience has not been overall pleasant but I leverage it for all its worth for the unexpected insights it has provided. No more papering over cracks, ignoring sound of rotten floor boards. I assume this all in the sense Im thinking most people want a life and relationship that is fulfilling, dare I say even enjoyable? What a long forgotten notion. rather than constantly spending it trying to fix up and try to keep something on an even keel. Yes I had good times, but there is this issue I cant escape - it should have, could have, for all I saw reasonably, been like that consistently. Unpackage the bad days - 99% of them were generated out of nothing, it was like she made sh!t when there was no logically reason or provocation to do so. I cant live that way it somehow messes with my head.

a Fixer upper is preferential to ignoring, but 2.5 years was too long for me. My weakness, find it hard to discard if I see something good or worth saving. It takes a certain mind that knows when to cut losses, walk away slightly down from the high stakes slot machine, im getting better at it and feel better for it.

See you later Wicker Man Im taking a break (give you a break and the family here too). Between us both we have written more than a book, im just grateful to have had help along the way some editorial expertise .  It has been a disturbing time - it wont always be this way or feel this way, I believe this and your strength in overcoming this as much as you have pulled me through alongside this emotional melee, I know it is just a matter of persevering and appreciating how far have travelled already. Thanks as always WM. See you later.

[Wicker Man]

Cromwell farewell and thank you for your thoughts, insight and ever being a challenge.  Whomever suggested you contribute to my first thread did me a great service.  In the anguish of separation, an anguish I had never known -your posts gave me something to look forward to each day.  

You are razor-sharp and quick witted -I always felt I had to reach deep within myself to match your level of perception.

The thing that stands out in all of this is the "love" word... ...Falling in love and in such a small space of time, then having to deal with finding closure… … how long it takes to love someone, let alone "know" someone.

Well… I found with an enormous about of projection… apparently one can fall in love very very quickly… (dumbass)  Ironically -I remember specifically trying to factor limerence into how I felt in those early heady days.  I thought I had calculated and factored in her ‘schizophrenia and bi-polar’ (misdiagnosed... ugh!) needs, which would have been a stable and loving home environment.  I thought I had weighed the cost / benefit of divorce and the loss of country versus the unknown of a new relationship.  I know I found her uniqueness attractive, not because she was disordered and needed help, but because of the unearthly sensitivity she had -I figured this was accepting the bad with the good.  

Here is where projection comes in.  I presumed we were on the same page -I was projecting my thought processes on to her, my stability, trustworthiness, and honesty.  This projection caused me to blissfully ignore or to defend and justify her erratic behavior.  I.e. she said she loves me -if one accepts this premise A then one can assume B and C.  Well… apparently the transitive property works better in Geometry than it does when looking at the human psyche.  Since her, ostensible, personality disorder makes her emotional state erratic my acceptance of premise A created a cascade of poor assumptions on my part.  I had built a foundation on very shaky ground.   I have earthquake insurance here in Los Angeles… it seems I forgot about this in Beijing.

I had an unhealthy desperation for both being loved and loving another.

This makes me wonder.  I had never suffered from ‘anxious attachment’ before meeting her -perhaps falling in love with someone who is inconsistent fosters it.  Loving her was an exercise in cognitive dissonance from the very beginning.  ‘Wait… she said this, but seems to be doing that (!)?  Once again, with an unhealthy dose of projection and wanting to believe in a fairytale can get one in a whole pile of trouble. E.g. me life...

if there is a story worth telling here… …was - a very sad one… … as such, propels me to wish to "moving on swiftly" now from.

I agree.  As I have often said I am not in the 'run' camp -I do believe some people who suffer from BPD can be amazing partners.  According to my therapist these relationships are very high-stake relationships -either they are incredibly good or devastatingly bad. The cavoite here being therapy is a must -without it there is little to no chance of success.    When I was reading what people with BPD write about themselves the most insightful had been through or were continuing DBT as well as talk therapy.  It was not a risk I could take.  

"Borderlines seek out and are attracted to losers". I tried to take it on board to reflect just as I do all the other theories.

In all of my reading I have never come across this theory.  I would guess perhaps whomever wrote this was feeling very badly for the loss of their relationship and it was an unhealthy bit of self-loathing.  However, I have read people with BPD may sometimes subconciously get into relationships they feel are likely to fail, perhaps somehow to mitigate the ‘inevitable’ abandonment.  I have postulated my being married might have been an attraction for Dream Come True -I believe initially I was going to be a steppingstone from her then current relationship.  In the end I believe she fell more in love than she had 'intended' -she had told me boyfriends were just a way to not be alone, that she had never really fallen in love.  Who knows this could be a manifestation an object consistency issue or fractured memory -or maybe what we had was unique to her experience.  

Even in my darkest moments I never felt like a ‘loser’.  I was deeply sad, but still retained my value as a human being. 

there was not a real sense of love in the first place, so I have not truly suffered a loss… …I said already early on in my therapy here I did not love her.

Here we are different.  I really adored this human being, her family, and ‘our’ friends.  Part of what I Ioved was a fantastical aberration of my concoction and the rest was her.  She truly is a genius, but just because I loved someone does not mean it was sustainable or wise.  There is plenty of loss to go around.

The "wanting" part had near but vaporised as time went on and I got to know more about her too.

Once again here we are different.  I still wanted her and my fantasy of a life with her, however it was self-evident I could not continue.

It sounds like you feel a lot of sorrow for her Wicker Man, sympathy.

I do have a lot of sympathy for her.  My therapist described me as empathetic to a fault.  Who knows, perhaps I have the sort of sensitivity which might have led me to suffer from BPD if I had had a different childhood.  I have always thought differently and felt more than most of my peers.  I have read a theory people suffering from BPD are prone to it because of a high level of sensitivity and dismissive parenting turns this sensitivity into a disorder.

However… My sympathy for her, my compassion for her, and my love for her do not imply a need for sacrificing myself.  I feel my ability to have sympathy for her pain, even though she hurt me badly, makes me human and I will not let this part of me go.  However, when it comes to kill or be killed?  It really isn't a choice as I see it.  I will give and give in a relationship until a line is crossed and then walls go up and I preserve self -it is a last resort, but an important one.

It helped after a few posts to realize the converse started to seem true.

I am not sure what you meant by this -but I approached my posts here with the same unabashed visceral honesty I have in therapy.  What would be the point of lying?  Contraindicated.

When you left the board for an interlude, I assumed that "he must of got over his issues, no surprise there". Little did I know you were contacting her, the thing you warned me against? Hypocrite.

Ummm... Hypocrite seems strong…  Yes, I counselled you against  contacting your ex, and yet I did the same.  This is actually the point of my being back here on the board and this very thread -how when I broke no contact was perhaps different.  When I made contact it was after a year of therapy and finding I was ‘blocked’ and could not put the relationship away.

Before opening contact I had created an enormous insulation for myself in therapy and went into the 3 days of communication with her having a firm agenda -knowing what I wanted from the conversation for myself and for her.

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.” _Sun Tzu

 I do not feel breaking No Contact is going to be right for everyone.  In fact, if I had done it too soon it would have been all to easy to be drawn back into the ‘Paradise Circus’.  

When you were talking about making contact I was afraid you were not in the right headspace.  You were alluding to being punitive and I was worried one or both of you may have been hurt even more than you already had been.  –But technically yes… perhaps I am a hypocrite…

…I refute the therapists (2 of which) suggested I should be one…- I’m not cut out for it.

I have often wondered how therapists manage to compartmentalize being empathetic to their patients pain and still retain their own sanity.  A very difficult, but rewarding, career I should guess.

My ex does not hold a monopoly on suffering, or knowing how to milk sympathy for all that its worth. The kindness I gave, it started to reflect back to me as 'stupidity' the more I got to really know her.

I am proud of the consistent kindness I showed during my relationship with Dream Come True -seeing her make some progress and becoming happier made me feel good.  Her friends told me they had never seen her happy before.  In fact one time I complemented her on her smile -she said 'I am glad you like it, it is yours.   I never smiled much before I met you'.  We made some progress, yet it could not stick -object consistency is a must in a healthy relationship.

The most difficult part of being in a relationship with someone suffering from BPD is the same thing which makes recovery so difficult -the lack of object consistency.  This lack means there is little to no ability to ‘build a relationship, since the past can be quickly forgotten or misremembered.  There is no foundation and it is almost like every day in the relationship is starting from scratch.  Recovery is difficult because we retain the memories and we have what we thought was a foundation, but we were mistaken.

Revenge? She can have her bad days and find someone she deems "more stupid" to help her out. In their mindset, a sucker is born every minute.

This makes me sad, sad for her.  Yes, she will find someone else -as a point of fact I am quite certain from how she spoke she is living with an old ‘friend’.  My sadness comes from feeling that she will not be understood or treated well.  Her previous relationships only served to perpetuate her shame motivated cycle of maladapted coping.  

I have read so often people here believe their ex partners moved on and are happy -check your premise!  It is my feeling they moved on out of desperation into a new desperate and dysfunctional relationship.  They moved on not out of strength, but out of soul crushing weakness.  They look happy?  Perhaps this paper thin smile is to cover up their searing pain.  They laugh to keep from crying.  

She is not rare in this and neither is DTC

I have a sneaking suspicion, a deep-seated fear that China is a factory for creating BPD in young girls.  A remnant of the one child policy, which favored boys to the point where it is illegal to learn the sex of a baby before birth, mixed with parents compelling their children to marry young and then culturally a baby is expected posthaste.  

This baby is they dropped off with the grandparents to be raised, because the newly married couple has to work.  Well… The grandparents were products of this same system, except they lived through Mao’s murderous blood soaked revolution and they have seen real pain.  The grandparents may be woefully ill-equipped to nurture a baby being so hardened from their own childhood experiences.  Ironically... BPD is not recognized in CCMD-3 (their DSM)  They actually believe abandonment is not an issue because of their culture -this is a terrible blind spot in my opinion.

I categorically agree Dream Come True is not rare in her suffering.  Hell -one of our roommates suffered from DID and as a mentally ill lesbian living in China --she is doomed.

Decouple yourself from this burden Wicker Man.

Yes -my watch is done.  I did my best to give her my insights which, I hope, if processed correctly could lead to some level of introspection and understanding on her part.

… start reflecting seriously on where you want your life to get out of this depression with your wife scenario rather than to use the coping mechanisms to adapt around it.

I am taking my marriage deadly seriously and will do my human best to make it healthy for both my wife and me.  My depression has faded.  I regret the time lost to depression, but I understand it.  I had a lot to process, a lot of loss and I had created a lot of pain.  

… persevering and appreciating how far have travelled already. Thanks as always WM. See you later.

It has been a long and strange journey -best of luck and Godspeed to you.

Wicker Man

[Gemsforeyes]

Thank you, Wicker Man and Cromwell...just thank you.

Your words have lifted me from the ground, given me what I needed.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Wicker Man]

@Gemsforeyes

Thank you for reading.  I have a lot of respect for your point of view -your posts have always struck me and sober, astute and compassionate.  I had left the board some months ago because I feared I was keeping a latent connection to my ex through posting about us. 

Beyond the dysfunction, her impulsive and destructive behavior, beyond the rage and lies she has a beautiful soul.  Meeting her caused a rift in my life and my psyche -it was a profound and life changing experience.  It took me many long months and hundreds of hours of reading for me to gain some understanding and solace.

I knew in my mind I had done the right thing in agreeing to end our relationship, but cognitive dissonance had me hung up for quite a while.  Theoretically I knew if I stayed with her things would have continued from questionable to far worse, but this knowledge was based on my intuition and vicarious learning here on BPD Family.

While I was posting here on detaching I was keeping a weather eye on Bettering as well as Family Law, Custody, Co-parenting, Divorce boards.  Our relationship was cut short due to fortuitous happenstance, but I had had every intention of creating a family with this person.  It helped me become more at ease with my decision to leave by reading how difficult life has been for some of the members here who have had longer relationships.

After a year of therapy I made the decision to have a brief final discussion with Dream Come True.  As I mentioned, my intent was to hopefully help both of us, however my greatest fear was resetting her healing clock back to day 1.  I knew from our mutual friend she was stuck and was not letting the idea of our relationship pass.  She had my sir name tattooed on her hand 4 months into no contact and I fear to this day she is still wearing my mother's engagement ring.  Unfortunately, rather than being romantic, or touching this sort of obsession and magical thinking are symptomatic of the very behaviors which made our relationship untenable.  She loved me, but that love had little functional basis in reality as I understand and percieve it.

In our discussions I never mentioned BPD -however I was able to explain to her how her actions had slowly and systematically undermined my trust. --I thought my situation, actions and the net result warranted me coming back here to share my experience in the case someone might find it useful on their own path.

I had approached literally every conversation with kindness and understanding.  When I was the most angry at her while speaking about her working with a dangerous producer I said 'We should talk about something else -I am beginning to lose my temper'.  It was interesting she asked 'You can feel you anger coming and stop it?'  This seems to be something completely unknown to her.  Apparently her anger begins like a switch being flipped.

The last words I wrote to her were meant with compassion -but the gloves came off a bit.  I felt there was something she needed to hear.  I am afraid she has never had a boyfriend stand up to her behavior in a level and metered fashion.  I know she had been yelled, threatened at knife point, had her dogs threatened and she had even been struck -but I doubt anyone had ever told her that her actions were not acceptable in a calm manner.  She has been the one to leave every relationship she has ever had.  We discussed this early on, I told her so am I -so we shall see how this works out for us.  Her approach to relationships previous to ours definitely appeared to be quite cavalier -my way or the highway...  She is pretty enough to keep most men completely cowed.

Anyway... Back to how the gloves came off...  She had attempted to perpetuate a lie and I told her 'Until you stop using sex as a tool or a weapon you will be treated like a thing instead of the beautiful human being you are'  I waited about a month for her reply and then re-blocked her to free myself from my phone and thoughts of her. 

Perhaps she will think about what I said and seek help before she hits rock bottom, perhaps what I said made her feel enough shame that she no longer wished to speak with me.  Either way hopefully this last discourse set her free -it certainly set me free.  I still miss her, but I am now completely certain and at ease with the notion --being with her was dangerous to me.


Wicker Man

[once removed]

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