my own children and my BPD mom

[Our abuse recovery guide]

Within the last 6 months my husband and I made the choice to not let our kids be alone with my BPD mom. Prior to this I hadn't be aware of her personality being so harmful to me and my kids (I chose not to deal with it and was naive). With therapy and counseling for both her and I separately I am learning about BPD, and trying to change my life and find self without her control. Anyway, my mom with BPD, had unlimited time with the grand kids (she lives less than a mile away from us). It was getting very unhealthy and they we're more with her then with us, spending nights with her on her request, her taking them to all activities, and us never having a night without her hovering around our family inviting herself over all the time.
Now that we are learning about the disorder and how to manage our lives better (mainly me) I see the harm emotionally she was giving our kids. Now that we've said no alone time with Nana, she wants to have it all back. I have had nothing but trouble from her since this started which was expected. I feel like we talk and things get better and there's understanding then I'm tossed for a loop through an email and we're back at ground zero. I want to hear if anyone else has made a similar choice to limit time with your kids and the BPD person in your life? Are there people who still have a relationship with the BPD person but don't allow kids to be alone with them? Should I loosen up like she's demanding? We are all healthier since this change mainly her she's lost weight being morbidly obese and has started working again after 2 years of "being too sick to work". She makes me feel guilty and then I question the situation again. (oh and fyi she is only verbally and emotionally abusive to me most of the time, no physical or sexual abuse)
Thanks

[Penny3]

Within the last 6 months my husband and I made the choice to not let our kids be alone with my BPD mom. Prior to this I hadn't be aware of her personality being so harmful to me and my kids (I chose not to deal with it and was naive). With therapy and counseling for both her and I separately I am learning about BPD, and trying to change my life and find self without her control. Anyway, my mom with BPD, had unlimited time with the grand kids (she lives less than a mile away from us). It was getting very unhealthy and they we're more with her then with us, spending nights with her on her request, her taking them to all activities, and us never having a night without her hovering around our family inviting herself over all the time.
Now that we are learning about the disorder and how to manage our lives better (mainly me) I see the harm emotionally she was giving our kids. Now that we've said no alone time with Nana, she wants to have it all back. I have had nothing but trouble from her since this started which was expected. I feel like we talk and things get better and there's understanding then I'm tossed for a loop through an email and we're back at ground zero. I want to hear if anyone else has made a similar choice to limit time with your kids and the BPD person in your life? Are there people who still have a relationship with the BPD person but don't allow kids to be alone with them? Should I loosen up like she's demanding? We are all healthier since this change mainly her she's lost weight being morbidly obese and has started working again after 2 years of "being too sick to work". She makes me feel guilty and then I question the situation again. (oh and fyi she is only verbally and emotionally abusive to me most of the time, no physical or sexual abuse)
Thanks

[sweetheart]

Hello Penny3, 

It can be really tricky and hard to establish healthy boundaries with parents who perhaps have poor boundaries themselves. Verbal abuse can be pervasive and very damaging to children if left unchecked.

Can you tell us a little bit more about what specific things have prompted you to stop all unsupervised contact between your mum and your children?

What ages are your children, and how are they managing with the loss of contact with ‘nana’?

It is good to hear you are feeling healthier and have a therapist in place.
Read all you can in the lessons on the issues that you face with your mother, information is most definitely one of the ways to feeling empowered and wil increase your self-awareness, and help you make informed decisions going forward.

[Penny3]

thanks sweetheart,
We had a specific instance at Halloween when my mom lost control in front of my kids. Yelling screaming at me, refusing to leave my house and talk elsewhere when I asked her to. She threatened suicide but then denied anything when I took her to emergency services. This was the first time my kids saw her like this and it was the first time I felt that my children could be harmed or in danger, mainly emotionally. My girls are 10,8, and 4, so my oldest is really starting to get it. Nana manipulates every situation to her own agenda including teaching my kids to guilt trip me into giving in to her own demands. My children have started to mirror this behavior prompting me to make a dramatic change for the health of our family. I don't want them to grow up as damaged as I have been.
My husband has asked me for a long time to stop letting her have so much time with them. I didn't see the harm thinking I was helping her depression by letting the kids cheer her up, when in reality I was enabling her. Through books and this site I am finding out why I struggle with such things as empathy and validation. Things I want to work on and learn new skills. It's just hard because my first instinct is to run away, cut her out of my life, and have no contact with her what so ever. I don't want to do that though because I believe my children should know their grandmother and enabling grandfather no matter how much I want to run away. This supervised visits only, seems to be the nicest way to let the kids have a relationship with them. 

[GaGrl]

The only reason my parents permitted my sister and me to visit my grandparents unsupervised was that my grandfather was retired and with us all the time. My step-grandmother was uNPD/BPD and was the most manipulative person I have ever known. My father moved us 200miles away soon after I was born, to provide distance and the ability for us to establish a healthy nuclear family -- that wasn't going to happen with Grandmother's interference.

Trust your husband. It sounds as if he were what is going on clearly. And your oldest daughter is right on track -- I was 10 years old when Dad had an honest talk with me about the relationship between my mother and her late-night (who had raised my mom from age 6 and done a lot of emotional damage).

[hummingbird281]

My mother is the same. Only emotional and verbal abuse. No physical. She is mad that I moved to another state because of my husbands work but it has been the best for my kids. My daughter sadly is manipulative like her and it terrifies me everyday that we were around to much. If you are seeing improvements all around then definitely don't question what you are doing! It sounds like you made the right choice for you and your family! Feel free to message me anytime if you want to talk. Some of the things I went through (not knowing this was her disorder) are just pure insanity. My husband stands in disbelief of my "childhood" stories.

[Harri]

I understand the distinctions you are making between physical, sexual, verbal and emotional abuse.  I do want to point out that emotional abuse is extremely damaging whether it happens by itself or in conjunction with other forms of abuse.  Also, it is the emotional message that accompanies the more obvious forms of abuse that many many survivors struggle with. 

I know that is true for me.  My mother did verbally and sexually abuse me but it was all the twisted messages about me and my value and my place in the world that I struggle with the most.  I am 53 and just now able to say I am worth something and i have value.  I am learning to trust again and see myself through my own eyes. 

Emotional abuse is highly damaging and protecting your children is necessary.  The manipulations, the emotional blackmail, the distorted perceptions will all have an impact.  Protecting them will require you not just being present but also willing and able to set limits with your mom as well.  Using many of the tools we offer here will help you.

[LottaO]

Penny3 - I have a young child and live in another state, but can relate to your situation. Shortly after my baby was born, my mother got upset mainly at my husband for something he said, but took it out on everyone. We've recovered and I want so much for her to see my baby as she get older, but we decided it would be best if we see her only as a family, and not separately. I think similarly too in that see us would help make her happy, prevent getting sadder or depressed. So, I'm curious how soon after you made your decision you mom got a job? Has she ever said why she got a job? Has it been helpful in her attitude/behavior?   

[Turkish]

My husband has asked me for a long time to stop letting her have so much time with them. I didn't see the harm thinking I was helping her depression by letting the kids cheer her up, when in reality I was enabling her

That's not their responsibility,  nor yours,  and I'm glad that you enacted boundaries to keep them safe.

I'm not saying that loving,  being kind or helping support by cheering someone else isn't right;  rather,  it's dealing with someone else's mental illness.  As my T told me,  "you have a home, not a hospital which is what your mother needs."

[Zabava]

Hi Penny,

Trust your instincts and protect your kids.  I relate to your dilemma.  I have 3 kids who were happy to see my uBPD mum and sister and their cousins when they were young...but...as they got older they became more aware and damaged by the dysfunction they witnessed.  It may sound harsh but I dont believe grandparents are entitled to a relationship to their grandchildren.  You have every right to define the boundaries for your child.

[Turkish]

It may sound harsh but I dont believe grandparents are entitled to a relationship to their grandchildren.  You have every right to define the boundaries for your child.

I agree. Kids and spouse are your primary family. Protect them.

My mom projected a lot of guilt,  and that was complicated given my ex was uBPD, and diagnosed with depression and anxiety,  but I had to default to focus on my ex and our kids, no matter what weirdness my mom desired, like wanting to watch our then 3 year old at her filthy hoard property. Hell no!

[Notwendy]

The kids were in the position of being your mother's emotional caretakers. Even if she didn't physically harm them, this can be emotionally harmful. Nana's feelings are not their responsibility, but they will be taught to feel responsible for them, and other's feelings. They are training to be enablers.

Please don't blame yourself. You had no idea, until now, because this is "normal" to you. It's how you were raised. Your father also role modeled this for you.

This is similar to how I was raised.

My situation is different in that my parents live a long enough distance from me that their visits were not as frequent. They also visited together. I never let my mother be alone with my kids. Usually we were in a family group , I was there, or at least my father was present if I wanted to run a short errand. I didn't trust my mother to be alone with them. I know she would not have harmed them physically but she did later try to enlist them as her emotional caretakers. I didn't have to enforce this boundary when they were younger as she doesn't have much interest in taking care of young children. I did enforce it as they got to be young teens because they then became useful to her- could do things around the house for her. Not that they wouldn't want to help her, but she "uses " people to do things for her for emotional gratification.

She also tried to enlist my kids as her "confidants" but she has poor boundaries and would tell them TMI. She also triangulates people against me and would tell them lies about me if she had the chance.

We had some "rules" with the kids for how to deal with their grandmother. She would try to coerce one of them to be alone with her. This was an opportunity for her to confide and triangulate. So they were told to not go alone with her and to go together. She'd say " I have something for you" and then take one of them off to another room. That had to stop.

The other was to not discuss very personal information with her. She has very poor boundaries and would pry and share too much. There was plenty of topics to talk about like school, sports, that were not personal.

Once I became vocal about the boundaries to my parents, they got very angry at me. We were not supposed to discuss mother's issues and these boundaries meant the issues were now in the open, at least for me and that was against the family dynamics. Your mother can't help her perspective. Parents with PD's see their kids as extensions of themselves, not as individuals. The expectation is that my purpose is to make mother feel better and so the assumption is that so were my kids.

You have the chance to make a difference with yours, to break the cycle that likely went on for generations in your family. However, it will take some studying about BPD and understanding family dynamics to do this well. I didn't understand a lot about it at the time. I assumed my father would understand that I had to protect my kids. He didn't. It wasn't easy to deal with the reaction from my parents. However, I knew at heart that it had to be done for the sake of my kids. In a way, I felt I was in a position to choose- their welfare or my parents' comfort. This was not something I wanted to have to choose between. But there was no question about it- I chose the kids, I chose me, and it was the right thing to do for us. 

[an0ught]

Hi Penny3,

you asked whether you should soften and the answer is no. You took a stand and currently the extinction burst is ongoing  . Softening now would not just undo you current attempt but would make future attempts even harder (intermittent reenforcement).

Hang in there  ,
a0

[Penny3]

Thank you all for your support. Its good to hear that I'm not the only one that has had to move in this direction. As this is all still happening and I'm learning a lot my husband is also shocked by what he is hearing my childhood was like. "Some of the things I went through (not knowing this was her disorder) are just pure insanity. My husband stands in disbelief of my "childhood" stories." Exactly the same! I thought these things were normal and I now know that emotional abuse, manipulation, and distorted blackmail are not normal. Moving around constantly, being yelled at and threatened, being woken up in the night as a child to comfort her and go for a drive in my pjs is not normal. I am learning how to handle my own emotions now and how to provide an encouraging environment for my kids. I guess I just didn't realize how naive and messed up I was.

To answer... "how soon after you made your decision you mom got a job? Has she ever said why she got a job? Has it been helpful in her attitude/behavior?" 
It took about 3-4 months for her to try working again. It was slow at first one day here one day there. Now its been its been 6 months and she works 4-5 days a week. She is a teacher, and has not been able to keep a steady job for the last 10 years. She is substituting for now which is very good for not doing any type of work for the last 2 yrs. She said she started subbing again because they need the money. Her husband works but they make very little. She's still trying to guilt trip me into paying for things for her (I haven't done that for at least the last year) but it doesn't stop her from trying to manipulate me into paying for a ticket to a kids event, or helping with her electric bill "just this once". I don't feel its helped her attitude or behavior toward me at all. It's actually gotten nastier. Every weekend I am to blame for something, I am ripping her soul apart by keeping the kids away from her, I'm hurting them just as much as I'm hurting her. I'm constantly being baited to give her a reason to argue and lash out. I just thought this far out that she might be settling down, but the anger is just constant. 

It would be easiest to move away from her. But that is not an option. We own our dream home. I have a very good job, and my kids are doing well at their school, stability I feel is important for kids. My husband is job hunting though. I've almost thought about asking him to apply out of state just because of my mom. It would be very sad to leave though we love our friends here and church group. She lives less than a mile away, subs in my kids classrooms frequently, and must show up at every grand kid event and usually make a scene or show her hatred toward my husband and her dislike in me right now. It's not been easy. Ignoring her doesn't work because she's constantly pushing my buttons.

Thank you for your support All. Can someone point out in which articles would be good to read first?

[GaGrl]

I think my father, somehow, figured out the best way to communicate with his mother-in-law, my step-grandmother. His low-key yet strong manner let him deliver boundary statements that didn't inflame her. I'm trying to remember a few ( we lived 200 miles away and even then did not exchange visits frequently):

 "MIL, we are happy to spend time with you as a family when no one is arguing or getting feelings hurt. We are ready to leave early if that can't be the case. So let's have a pleasant visit."

 "That's not something Wife and I are going to get involved in."

And a couple of my favorites...

 "That's enough, Dorothy."

 And...

 "No."

 If my parents weren't around (and this happened as we got older and parents loosened some of the boundaries...not good), my sister and I got dragged around to meet/be shown off to SGM's friends. One friend had a 16 year old son who had recently gotten his license and a convertible, and I was allowed to go for a drive with him -- I had just turned 12. Very, very poor judgement. I of course told my parents, and they were furious.  No summer weeks at my grandparents after that!

 Until my parents held some boundaries (and truthfully, most of it was my dad protecting us), we had visits that would leave my mother in tears. SGM was only 12 years older than my mother (married my widowed grandfather when she was 18 and took on parenting a 6 year old), so there was a lot of resentment on mother's part as well as emotional and verbal abuse outside my grandfather's view.