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Author Topic: How responsible are they?  (Read 412 times)
Frayed

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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 4


« on: April 23, 2019, 04:45:17 PM »

Hi!  Welcome new member (click to insert in post) This is my first post. I get so stuck on why my very recent ex was abusive and wonder if any of you have made some peace with it or come to some conclusions about how it fits with this disorder.

I tolerated so much I never would have had I felt he wasn't mentally ill, and trying to understand why he was the way he was kept me stuck. In the end, why didn't matter because it wouldn't change it, but I can't stop trying to understand it. It's only been a month and I'm finding all the damage hard to process so I guess it makes sense.

He knew it was wrong factually, but didn't seem to feel guilt or anxiety about it. He always apologized without being asked but with the demand we wouldn't discuss it and I should immediately behave like it never happened. If he felt he could tell I was wary, he'd angrily attack me again for that. He feared I'd eventually leave because of it, but that seemed to be more about being abandoned rather than any remorse or worry that he was abusive. He was worried yet resentful and not ashamed.

He did nothing about it and we were together for two years. When it was really bad, he'd see the relationship as stressful and begin to doubt his feelings for me. He had real difficulty accepting that he caused the problems even though it happened every few days. When things were calmer, he'd comment on how happy and relaxed I'd seem and would connect it on his own to better controlling his irritability. And they weren't arguments about actual things. There was nothing to defend against that way even if I had felt safe enough to fight back. I just stayed silent and then tried to calm him down when it seemed safe enough to.

He was undiagnosed but I've had a therapist the whole way through who's known me for years and she sees him as an extreme case. He not only meets all the criteria except for active suicidality, but every day was upset in ways that match the disorder. And he did other things that endangered his life. I've also learned a bit about the differences between cluster B personalities over the last two years and where they're likely to overlap. My only hesitation was the extent of lack of empathy. If he hadn't so often based all kinds of things in his life on rejection or not being good enough while also being narcissistic, and if he wasn't extremely impulsive, I would have wondered if he was primarily sociopathic or narcissistic with BPD traits.

If I tell myself it's because he lacked empathy due to biology or trauma, we still have societal standards that tell us certain behaviour is wrong and he clearly knew it was wrong. I know he had trouble controlling it in the moment, but I get stuck on the rest. He did also put me down when calm and that makes it a bit more complicated.

After the breakup, he told me that not being in love with me and not being attracted to me made him angry. Also, that he couldn't be alone and that's why he was with me. (He even had trouble feeling okay on his own on the nights I wasn't with him. He also has to be dating someone or trying to days later.) Then, that he never felt I loved him or was attracted to him and that made him angry. Then, that feeling like we weren't in love with each other made him lonely and angry. And also that the stress in the rest of his life made him treat me badly. When early on I once asked him why it happened, he said it was only because I was the one closest to him.

I had these excuses:

He has to deny it because it would trigger his core shame and he can't split himself black.

He can't empathize, so it doesn't register as a real problem and is therefore unintentionally ignored.

He's too consumed by his pain to think about the severity of it.

He's too self-absorbed to think of me as real person.

He grew up with a physically abusive father, so doesn't think it's that abnormal (even though I'd think that would allow for more empathy as well as more fear of it in himself).

Any thoughts?
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« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2019, 05:52:08 PM »

hi Frayed, and Welcome

im of the belief that all adults are responsible for their actions, full stop.

with that said, what is it youre wondering if he is responsible for? it sounds like a turbulent relationship. what is it that he did that he knew was wrong?
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     and I think it's gonna be all right; yeah; the worst is over now; the mornin' sun is shinin' like a red rubber ball…
Frayed

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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 4


« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2019, 07:14:53 PM »

Hi! Thank you for the welcome.

I too believe that all adults are responsible for their actions no matter what. Because my ex got so overwhelmed in such obviously abnormal ways, I excused a lot of it at the beginning and didn't take it personally. That set me up for things getting worse. Otherwise, I'd have left.

I seem to get stuck in a sort of philosophical trap with it all. I cannot figure out why he didn't care about how he treated me, and for himself or for me. Was it denial because it made him feel ashamed or overwhelmed or could he really, truly not empathize? What are the main barriers in empathy for pwBPD?

And he did many things wrong, but the general thing was that he'd get angry at me over small things and sometimes things not related to me at all and they happened every few days. The other is that he was still devaluing most of the rest of the time with put downs and insults and yet was totally dependent on me and always afraid I didn't like or love him enough.

I'll give you a few examples on the rages since you asked and because they were most often and were the general thing to both of us. He did other really hurtful and impulsive things including a dramatic breakup in front of my parents while overseas two days before we flew home (he went to a different country but we took the same flight back), but it's the general weekly freak outs and devaluing with insults that made me leave. We both agreed they were a problem so it was a real subject to him.

He usually picked me up on certain days every week (I don't drive and I was twenty minutes from his neighbourhood) and then one day became furious that he had to once I was in the car. He wanted me to split gas money with him, which would have been a few dollars a week and I took $20 cabs to him on days he didn't pick me up.

One day he didn't want to go to work and cancelled it because of an extreme weather warning but had an impulsive need to go to the music store right away. He asked me to skip breakfast so we could go and volunteered to stop at a Starbucks on the way so I could get something to eat (he doesn't eat until the afternoon). The street was closed, so we decided to go to a McDonald's closest to the destination. It was 140 metres/2 minutes away, but suddenly having to stop anywhere was a problem so he started screaming and went straight to the destination so I walked.

None of these examples explain any of it and they sound like normal, ridiculous squabbles people have. The problem was that he'd become absolutely furious in these situations and start pounding the steering wheel and screaming insults that were really personal. I'd sit there and wait for him to calm down and, about half an hour to an hour later, he'd apologize. They're like fits but then he gets mean. They were always unwarranted because he'd pick anything when upset, so were impossible to predict. I can't describe them by explaining what the issue was about. Often they had nothing to do with me and he'd be talking about someone else but start insulting me when there was no connection.

Thank you for asking. I think I'm probably still trying to make sense out of things that there's no good answer for. I just can't understand how he didn't feel really ashamed or worried about being like that even if he didn't care how it hurt me.
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Frayed

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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 4


« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2019, 08:08:23 PM »

PS we're both in our forties. It all sounds so immature. It was, but not because we're young. And my apologies on the long posts!
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« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2019, 12:22:41 AM »

Was it denial because it made him feel ashamed or overwhelmed or could he really, truly not empathize? What are the main barriers in empathy for pwBPD?

in general, people with BPD are as capable or more of empathy as you and i.

BPD however is a disorder of emotions, and empathy, tact, etc tend to go out the window when a person is emotionally dysregulated. what is otherwise a tendency to see things in black and white terms can be far more extreme than otherwise. a tendency to over emote and overstate can be far more extreme. given the extreme sensitivity, it takes a relatively low threshold to reach a full blown dysregulation over something you or i might deem small, or innocent.

and afterward, when they reach baseline, someone with BPD traits can quite often see that; can see the overreaction, and no longer relate to everything they said.

we often struggle with this, and question how someone who loves us can say these things, or how someone who seems to get it afterward could say those things at the time. we arent sure which version of us, the extremely bad or the extremely good, is the person our partner sees.

does that make sense?
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Wicker Man
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Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Attempting to reconcile after my affair.
Posts: 507


« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2019, 11:17:27 AM »

...tend to go out the window when a person is emotionally dysregulated.

Another way of saying 'emotional dysregualtion is “emotional hyperreactivity.”  I read where someone suffering from BPD likened dysregulation to an 'emotional seizure' -instead of loosing muscular control it is a loss of emotional control. 

Dr. John Gottman, who spent decades observing couples in conflict, uses the term Diffuse Physiological arousal.

DPA is sympathetic nervous system response -Fight Flight Freeze.  When in DPA heart rate and BP increase and the brain is flooded with cortisol and catecholamines -stress hormones. There is also increased amygdala activation, and decreased frontal lobe activity.  The amygdala is the portion of the brain which may react differently to stress in people suffering from BPD*.  We are all effected in a similar physiological manner while experiencing DPA -but I believe someone with BPD may be more so.

When in the grip of DPA we lose the ability to process information -it literally effects our hearing and sight (blind rage, seeing red etc).  We become defensive and our ability to problem solve or empathize are gravely impaired.  This is why the JADE and SET tools are so important -there is no constructive communication when one or both parties are in DPA.

So finally to my point...  When in a rage (DPA) our people with BPD are perhaps even more effected (activity in the amygdala) and in the heat of the moment cannot see any positive in their partners.  Once the rage subsides they then return to a more rational and balanced view.

I felt my undiagnosed ex loved me and hated me with the same passion and conviction -they were both completely real to her in each respective moment.  Confusing and illogical, but apparently real.

Wicker Man

*"...Prior neuroimaging studies have indicated that BPD patients have (1) excessive amygdala activation to negative emotion and (2) diminished frontal regulation". --Quoted from Amygdala Functional Connectivity in Young Women with Borderline Personality Disorder
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Upandown

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« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2019, 01:20:59 PM »

I have been involved with a woman who seems to me to have BPD traits (don't know if she's diagnosed) for about 8 months -  going back and forth between friendship and some romance.  I have had other experience in my life with personality disordered people.  The extreme push pull of this woman has been very difficult.  She is aware that she lives "in the moment".  She uses the words to describe herself.

It deprives us of having a feeling of continuity with them and our shared experience.  Events/behaviors are seemingly forgotten.  I came across recently a foreign paper that discusses this topic.  I found it very helpful.  I will post a quote from it:

Excerpt
"switching from one present to the next and being totally identified with their present state of affect. Instead of repression, their means of defense consists in a temporal splitting of the self that excludes past and future as dimensions of object constancy, bonding, commitment, responsibility and guilt."

Psychopathology. 2007;40(6):379-87. Epub 2007 Jul 25.
Fragmented selves: temporality and identity in borderline personality disorder.
Fuchs T.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17652950
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