Deny me Invalidation me.

[Our abuse recovery guide]

I find denial very triggering. We know BPD use this a lot. For example a member of staff complained about a work placement guy who she called “quiet rapey”. Meaning he was very assertive and wouldn’t take no for an answer. He was pushing his opinions on me, making suppositions and racist remarks. I picked him up on each one, and every time he assertively told me I was wrong. I showed him the evidence, that clearly proved he was wrong, he doubled down on his denial and invalidated everything I said. He wanted to work for me, and yet behaved in this manner. I was shocked and my CPTSD made me fearful of him. I do think now he was very NPD. But a customer did something similar today, because he had no money, but he just kept repeating the same false logic and invalidating anything I said. He may not be NPD, but it's the fact they won't take no for an answer and won't go away.

How do you deal with these sorts of people ? My staff would say cut them out, to which I would say shall we share the loss of income equally ? It that feeling of fear my CPTSD gives, when someone like this does it. Also I read 1700 people had died in Police custody in the UK since 1998 and not a single member of the force implicated ! Again that level of denial is scary.

Private business would die very quickly if they invalidated and denied their customers. But the jokes about civil servants are the same the world over, just different levels of corruption.  I can point to small wins when I’ve raged against the machine and I know I’m a bit of a rescuer, fixer, rebel (with a cause).  But I need to retire from all that, how do I switch it off ? How do you deal with very strong denial and invalidation ? The frustrating thing is, I use to be very good at mediation, very good at dealing with this, lots of patience and tact (I know). This seems to have escaped me now, due to the rise of CPTSD that makes me struggle now. Keen to resolve it quickly, makes me Maybe I was too flexible and I've gone beyond my elasticity point, where the rubber band no longer returns to it original shape ? If you're having problems visualising the rubber band thing, check this out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi6sgW_y7Uc

[HappyChappy]

I find denial very triggering. We know BPD use this a lot. For example a member of staff complained about a work placement guy who she called “quiet rapey”. Meaning he was very assertive and wouldn’t take no for an answer. He was pushing his opinions on me, making suppositions and racist remarks. I picked him up on each one, and every time he assertively told me I was wrong. I showed him the evidence, that clearly proved he was wrong, he doubled down on his denial and invalidated everything I said. He wanted to work for me, and yet behaved in this manner. I was shocked and my CPTSD made me fearful of him. I do think now he was very NPD. But a customer did something similar today, because he had no money, but he just kept repeating the same false logic and invalidating anything I said. He may not be NPD, but it's the fact they won't take no for an answer and won't go away.

How do you deal with these sorts of people ? My staff would say cut them out, to which I would say shall we share the loss of income equally ? It that feeling of fear my CPTSD gives, when someone like this does it. Also I read 1700 people had died in Police custody in the UK since 1998 and not a single member of the force implicated ! Again that level of denial is scary.

Private business would die very quickly if they invalidated and denied their customers. But the jokes about civil servants are the same the world over, just different levels of corruption.  I can point to small wins when I’ve raged against the machine and I know I’m a bit of a rescuer, fixer, rebel (with a cause).  But I need to retire from all that, how do I switch it off ? How do you deal with very strong denial and invalidation ? The frustrating thing is, I use to be very good at mediation, very good at dealing with this, lots of patience and tact (I know). This seems to have escaped me now, due to the rise of CPTSD that makes me struggle now. Keen to resolve it quickly, makes me Maybe I was too flexible and I've gone beyond my elasticity point, where the rubber band no longer returns to it original shape ? If you're having problems visualising the rubber band thing, check this out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi6sgW_y7Uc

[Kwamina]

Hi HappyChappy

People like the ones you describe can definitely be very challenging to deal with and indeed also quite triggering.

He was pushing his opinions on me, making suppositions and racist remarks. I picked him up on each one, and every time he assertively told me I was wrong. I showed him the evidence, that clearly proved he was wrong, he doubled down on his denial and invalidated everything I said.

How do you deal with these sorts of people ?

How do you deal with very strong denial and invalidation ?

I would say don't J.A.D.E.:

The practice of having a debate with someone who has strong biases can actually have the counter-productive effect of reinforcing their biases, as they repetitively remember and state the facts from their own point of view. This is what makes the idea of JADE - Justifying, Arguing, Defending or Explaining - such a bad idea.

Instead, it is recommended that on any given issue, state your point of view once and once only. Provide any clarifications that are asked for. Anything more than this is likely to be counter productive.

This is not to suggest that you should say nothing at all or back down in an argument. It is critical to take whatever action is necessary so that you, and any children under your care, can live in a safe, happy, healthy and productive environment. It's just not that necessary to talk very much about it.

How do you feel about not JADE-ing in these kinds of situations?

The Board Parrot

[HappyChappy]

Thanks Kwamina, that’s good advice as always. I guess its hard because a BPD purposefully does J.A.D.E. , picking arguments at every opportunity , we saw this every day of our childhood. Its also ironic that it does appear to work when applied to the crowd, e.g. “false news” . But I guess on a one to one its different.

When I’m not triggered it comes naturally to avoid J.A.D.E. ing, when I’m triggered it the opposite, that’s the frustrating thing. Mind you I find I do avoid this in business (because the customer is always right) but this guy wanted to work for me, so it just seemed bizzard. A long time back, I had a rouge member of staff who was very NPD. He managed to borrow money from half my staff and then disappeared . He clearly though his Boss was Mr money bags, because he threatened all sort if I didn't also "lend" him big money. I didn't, I just evidenced some of his deceptions and called in the Police. But boy did he do some damage in his attempts to extort.

The ironic thing was, my staff had initially thought I was being very mean by sacking him (for breaking the law) until they noticed their new best friend didn't return their money or phone calls and started threatening them directly. Not J.A.D.E ing sounds like allowing them to do their thing, so long as it doesn't effect us. Moving the problem along. I confronted the person that gave him a great reference, and he basically said he did something similar his company and was threatening to do more unless he got a good reference. Isn't this just moving it along, or have I missed something ?

Kind of ironic that a thread about denial and avoidance, is being avoided by all but a bird of paradise.

[Kwamina]

Bird of paradise...I like that!

Not J.A.D.E ing sounds like allowing them to do their thing, so long as it doesn't effect us. Moving the problem along. I confronted the person that gave him a great reference, and he basically said he did something similar his company and was threatening to do more unless he got a good reference. Isn't this just moving it along, or have I missed something ?

Well actually not JADE-ing is not about letting them just do their thing. It is just a tool to help keep us from engaging in circular arguments conversations. Instead we can choose an assertive response and in fact, asserting ourselves and setting boundaries does not have to been done verbally. We can also do that non-verbally just by changing our own responses and behavior. When considering  not JADE-ing, it is crucial to not forget about this part:

This is not to suggest that you should say nothing at all or back down in an argument. It is critical to take whatever action is necessary so that you, and any children under your care, can live in a safe, happy, healthy and productive environment. It's just not that necessary to talk very much about it.

Take whatever action you believe is needed to keep yourself, your business, employees, children etc. safe. It's just not that necessary to talk that much about it to the person, just take action.

Instead, it is recommended that on any given issue, state your point of view once and once only. Provide any clarifications that are asked for. Anything more than this is likely to be counter productive.

You do not need to convince the other person, or get them to agree with you by endlessly going around in circles. Just do what you need to do by taking action and your actions non-verbally convey messages too.

How do you feel about that ole chap?

[JNChell]

LMAO! Bird of paradise. Work situations are a whole different animal, but like the “Bird of paradise” has said, the tools still apply. Remember, your hard boundaries apply in every aspect of everyday life. Yes, there are different and sometimes moveable boundaries in individual situations, but the hard stick. We protect who we are. Use the tools in a calm and collected way, my friend. C-PTSD is a SOB, but it really feels good when we beat it. Use your wits Bro.

[Harri]

Hi HappyC!   

Kwamina gave a great explanation of what JADE is and how it works for us.  The tools we talk about here are for helping us cope and help us learn to respond rather than react/get triggered.

I think a lot of us get the wrong idea about the tools.  They are not a way to appease or just calm a pwBPD, though they may help with the latter (calming).  The tools are for us.

Kwamina:

You do not need to convince the other person, or get them to agree with you by endlessly going around in circles. Just do what you need to do by taking action and your actions non-verbally convey messages too.

Yes.  If you want to be able to get to the point of not reacting so strongly, to not being triggered, I think it will help to really learn what the tools are, what they mean and how to use them.