SD13: "What would you say if I said I wanted to be a boy?"

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

(This might be a ... lightly Christian discussion. Let me know if you have questions about my views)

It came up in a longer conversation last night.

The kids had checked a comic book out of the library. The cover looked pretty benign (it seemed to portray the story as about a boy having to choose between a sport & a hobby he loved), so neither DH nor I previewed it. I flipped through it yesterday afternoon while they were all out, and it was kind of shocking. Lots of foul (like, R-rated adult-level) language. I was also surprised that it was about a gay crush/relationship, vs "learning to follow your passion" or something.

When they got home, I asked SD13 if she'd finished it, which she had. I brought up that one thing I liked about it was that the author was a woman of one race, while the protagonist was a boy of another race -- I said I thought that our culture sends a lot of messages about "not appropriating another culture", but that would be so sad and limiting for writing fiction. She agreed, but didn't really keep going. I commented that I was surprised it was in the "young adult" section because of the language. She was like, "Oh, yeah, I know, I do ask my friends not to talk that way, but I'm used to it because "Stepdad" talks that way." She quickly added that "he's gotten a lot better, though." I asked if she knew the age range portrayed in the book (it's set in a college, so it's basically a book about adults using adult sexual language in adult relationships). She guessed "20" so I commented again how I was surprised that a book about adults was in the kids' section.

I was pushing it! A first, LOL. I asked her why she thought the protagonist liked his crush. She said "he was a strong leader and helpful teammate", so I asked if she thought that within the book, the protagonist himself knew why he liked his crush. She said No, and I agreed. I tried bringing up how a lot of times, people get in relationships with people at the same emotional level, and often get in relationships because they believe that their love will fix the other person's sadness. She seemed a little skeptical, and then was finally like "But what do you think about the fact that they're gay? You seem to not like gay people." I asked her what some of the ways were where it seemed like I didn't -- she said it was more like a sense she got when we talked about it. I told her that her "radar" was right in that she was picking up on how my views on sexuality were probably pretty different that most people's. I described how I thought that the biggest issue in sexuality for everyone is choosing whether to act on whatever sexual feelings they have, i.e. can I act on this feeling in a loving way? That it's the same for gay people, straight people, the characters in the book, etc. We have to tell ourselves "No" sometimes even though we feel we want something.

Anyway, long story short, after a lot of discussion about my beliefs, her beliefs, etc, she came to "So... I'm just going to go for it, what would you say if I told you I wanted to be a boy?" DH was great, he said "Well, I'd want to know more about how you were feeling". SD13 described feeling like she didn't fit in to the categories she'd heard about on the "gender spectrum" (i.e., boy, girl, or in between). She said she likes hanging out with her guy friends and wants to wear swim trunks (I would assume as opposed to a swimsuit). She said "But I still like some girl stuff? I like wearing earrings..." She seemed less convinced that she was a boy, and more almost like she was comparing two lists (OK, here are the boy things, now compare to girl things, which is longer). Belonging to a group/having a category to be in seemed important to her.

DH reassured her that a lot of what she was feeling was pretty normal (i.e. when he was her age, his best friends were girls). That he would always love her and have her back, no matter what she chose. She seemed relieved and brought up that she'd heard "some kids get kicked out when they say they're gay"; I commented that that sounded very sad.

Then she was like, "Well, now that we've talked about that... can I go to this LGBTQ teen conference on X day? Mom said you wouldn't want me to." Interestingly, that day is a day she is with Mom, not us. And it looks like the permission slip had been in her bag for a while. DH said "I don't see why not... I'd just want to learn more about what they plan to do, and demonstrate, and work on." He commented that he thought that experimenting is not always the best, safest way to learn about something. He asked why she wanted to go, and SD13 said she wanted to be with people like her who feel like they don't fit in. She wants to learn more about these issues and that seemed like a good way to her. DH said as long as we keep talking, and if you talk to me about what you learn about. We gave her a big hug and said we were glad she shared.

She said something like "I know this seems silly" but I told her it didn't seem silly at all to be having these questions, or to be thinking about being a boy as an answer, given the options out there in our world (i.e. options for "who am I" or "how do I fit in"). She at some other point said "I want to fit in to a social category" and I "hmm'd" about that, because it sort of hit her that she wasn't really solving the problem of how she felt by trying to "categorize" herself. We talked about how talking about tough teen years is a lot different than trying to be a teen living in tough teen years.

It was getting late, but we circled back around to the topic of marriage. I mentioned that I didn't think anyone including straight people had a "right" to get married, which blew her mind. "But you're married to DH!" I shared that I thought marriage was a privilege (i.e. imagine nobody wants to marry you, do you demand it?). We were all pretty beat by this point (almost 2 hours in).

Soo...

I'm glad she felt like she could be so open with us. I really want to encourage her to keep sharing; that we don't all have to believe the same thing in order to love each other.

I suspect that her real feelings of not fitting in and not feeling comfortable with her body don't have a lot of "alternative interpretations" besides trans/gender interpretations, either at school or at Mom's house. I think Mom would be over the moon if any or all of the kids transitioned.

It seems important to me to talk about how kids differentiate from their parents starting around that age, and that it can feel like "Who am I now" compared to being a little kid. Any thoughts on how to go deeper with this? I wonder if SD13 struggles to know how to build an identity, and so is looking for answers in our culture, which offers gender identity as a big one. I suspect Mom struggles greatly with identity, so perhaps "being a woman" is unappealing to SD13 if what she sees is "women don't have identity" coming tacitly from Mom.

I'm getting a suspicious feeling about the "Mom said you wouldn't want me to go" comment. I mean, Mom has final decision about education, and the conference is on her day. I suspect a setup and I'm not happy about it ("Oh, I have no problem with you going, but you need to check with Dad... you know how he didn't want you to do the other gender group")

I'm happy to buy her swim trunks. I think they're better than bikinis, so, whew.

Just a lot to process. I'm proud she could talk to us. I'm definitely working on opening the door to tough conversations, and she barreled through last night :-) 

Feedback, comments, support appreciated.

[kells76]

(This might be a ... lightly Christian discussion. Let me know if you have questions about my views)

It came up in a longer conversation last night.

The kids had checked a comic book out of the library. The cover looked pretty benign (it seemed to portray the story as about a boy having to choose between a sport & a hobby he loved), so neither DH nor I previewed it. I flipped through it yesterday afternoon while they were all out, and it was kind of shocking. Lots of foul (like, R-rated adult-level) language. I was also surprised that it was about a gay crush/relationship, vs "learning to follow your passion" or something.

When they got home, I asked SD13 if she'd finished it, which she had. I brought up that one thing I liked about it was that the author was a woman of one race, while the protagonist was a boy of another race -- I said I thought that our culture sends a lot of messages about "not appropriating another culture", but that would be so sad and limiting for writing fiction. She agreed, but didn't really keep going. I commented that I was surprised it was in the "young adult" section because of the language. She was like, "Oh, yeah, I know, I do ask my friends not to talk that way, but I'm used to it because "Stepdad" talks that way." She quickly added that "he's gotten a lot better, though." I asked if she knew the age range portrayed in the book (it's set in a college, so it's basically a book about adults using adult sexual language in adult relationships). She guessed "20" so I commented again how I was surprised that a book about adults was in the kids' section.

I was pushing it! A first, LOL. I asked her why she thought the protagonist liked his crush. She said "he was a strong leader and helpful teammate", so I asked if she thought that within the book, the protagonist himself knew why he liked his crush. She said No, and I agreed. I tried bringing up how a lot of times, people get in relationships with people at the same emotional level, and often get in relationships because they believe that their love will fix the other person's sadness. She seemed a little skeptical, and then was finally like "But what do you think about the fact that they're gay? You seem to not like gay people." I asked her what some of the ways were where it seemed like I didn't -- she said it was more like a sense she got when we talked about it. I told her that her "radar" was right in that she was picking up on how my views on sexuality were probably pretty different that most people's. I described how I thought that the biggest issue in sexuality for everyone is choosing whether to act on whatever sexual feelings they have, i.e. can I act on this feeling in a loving way? That it's the same for gay people, straight people, the characters in the book, etc. We have to tell ourselves "No" sometimes even though we feel we want something.

Anyway, long story short, after a lot of discussion about my beliefs, her beliefs, etc, she came to "So... I'm just going to go for it, what would you say if I told you I wanted to be a boy?" DH was great, he said "Well, I'd want to know more about how you were feeling". SD13 described feeling like she didn't fit in to the categories she'd heard about on the "gender spectrum" (i.e., boy, girl, or in between). She said she likes hanging out with her guy friends and wants to wear swim trunks (I would assume as opposed to a swimsuit). She said "But I still like some girl stuff? I like wearing earrings..." She seemed less convinced that she was a boy, and more almost like she was comparing two lists (OK, here are the boy things, now compare to girl things, which is longer). Belonging to a group/having a category to be in seemed important to her.

DH reassured her that a lot of what she was feeling was pretty normal (i.e. when he was her age, his best friends were girls). That he would always love her and have her back, no matter what she chose. She seemed relieved and brought up that she'd heard "some kids get kicked out when they say they're gay"; I commented that that sounded very sad.

Then she was like, "Well, now that we've talked about that... can I go to this LGBTQ teen conference on X day? Mom said you wouldn't want me to." Interestingly, that day is a day she is with Mom, not us. And it looks like the permission slip had been in her bag for a while. DH said "I don't see why not... I'd just want to learn more about what they plan to do, and demonstrate, and work on." He commented that he thought that experimenting is not always the best, safest way to learn about something. He asked why she wanted to go, and SD13 said she wanted to be with people like her who feel like they don't fit in. She wants to learn more about these issues and that seemed like a good way to her. DH said as long as we keep talking, and if you talk to me about what you learn about. We gave her a big hug and said we were glad she shared.

She said something like "I know this seems silly" but I told her it didn't seem silly at all to be having these questions, or to be thinking about being a boy as an answer, given the options out there in our world (i.e. options for "who am I" or "how do I fit in"). She at some other point said "I want to fit in to a social category" and I "hmm'd" about that, because it sort of hit her that she wasn't really solving the problem of how she felt by trying to "categorize" herself. We talked about how talking about tough teen years is a lot different than trying to be a teen living in tough teen years.

It was getting late, but we circled back around to the topic of marriage. I mentioned that I didn't think anyone including straight people had a "right" to get married, which blew her mind. "But you're married to DH!" I shared that I thought marriage was a privilege (i.e. imagine nobody wants to marry you, do you demand it?). We were all pretty beat by this point (almost 2 hours in).

Soo...

I'm glad she felt like she could be so open with us. I really want to encourage her to keep sharing; that we don't all have to believe the same thing in order to love each other.

I suspect that her real feelings of not fitting in and not feeling comfortable with her body don't have a lot of "alternative interpretations" besides trans/gender interpretations, either at school or at Mom's house. I think Mom would be over the moon if any or all of the kids transitioned.

It seems important to me to talk about how kids differentiate from their parents starting around that age, and that it can feel like "Who am I now" compared to being a little kid. Any thoughts on how to go deeper with this? I wonder if SD13 struggles to know how to build an identity, and so is looking for answers in our culture, which offers gender identity as a big one. I suspect Mom struggles greatly with identity, so perhaps "being a woman" is unappealing to SD13 if what she sees is "women don't have identity" coming tacitly from Mom.

I'm getting a suspicious feeling about the "Mom said you wouldn't want me to go" comment. I mean, Mom has final decision about education, and the conference is on her day. I suspect a setup and I'm not happy about it ("Oh, I have no problem with you going, but you need to check with Dad... you know how he didn't want you to do the other gender group")

I'm happy to buy her swim trunks. I think they're better than bikinis, so, whew.

Just a lot to process. I'm proud she could talk to us. I'm definitely working on opening the door to tough conversations, and she barreled through last night :-) 

Feedback, comments, support appreciated.

[GaGrl]

I'm impressed that 1) she is secure and open enough to have the conversation with you, and 2) she obviously has thought about this deeply enough to articulate where she is now.

We have two granddaughters who both will be 18 in the next 6 weeks -- one is DH's bio GD and the other is a step GD who has been in the family since age 3. The SGD has been struggling with her sexuality for 4-5 years. Her parents are not supportive. She really depends on DH's daughter and grandaughter, but she sees them only bi-weekly. I'm hoping our annual beach week gives us some talk time.

I think your differentiation of emotional connection was huge. That will give her something to ponder.

[Ulysses]

Thanks for sharing that. It sounds like you handled it so well, and I'm glad to hear that she could open up to you and her dad and have this conversation.

I have had similar experiences with my exH and what he tells our children. I try to let my children know I love them unconditionally.

[ForeverDad]

This might have been an opportunity for dad to remark that it would be good for her to balance out that conference by attending others that emphasized the traditional/historical hetero perspective.  I'm hearing in the news that historical social norms ("conservative" perspectives) are being suppressed, especially in colleges, while the now-advocated alternatives are being actively pushed.

Also, how she feels about her insecurities now is sure to morph as she matures.  You, her dad and your home will help greatly as she matures, I have no doubt that having a disordered parent makes it a struggle long term to keep everything in perspective.

[worriedStepmom]

This might have been an opportunity for dad to remark that it would be good for her to balance out that conference by attending others that emphasized the traditional/historical hetero perspective.  I'm hearing in the news that historical social norms ("conservative" perspectives) are being suppressed, especially in colleges, while the now-advocated alternatives are being actively pushed.

What is a conference for traditional/historical hetero perspective?  Much of society is from the traditional/hetero perspective.  Teens get plenty of visibility into that - and in this case, kells's SD has parents in traditional marriages with traditional gender roles, so she should be very familiar with this perspective.

In my experience, these kinds of LGBTQ conferences or societies (at the high school or college level) are not trying to push any lifestyle, but to let kids know they aren't alone in how they feel and to raise awareness in the broader community. 

My oldest is 13, and she's told me there are lots of her friends coming out as gay or bisexual right now.  Some are afraid to tell one or both parents because they are afraid they will be disowned or punished. Kells, I think it's wonderful that your SD feels safe enough to discuss this with you even though she thought you might disapprove.

Is SD in therapy already? If not, I might suggest it.  Not because there is anything wrong with her, but because it will give her another space to work out her feelings, free from any pressure from mom's idea of who she is supposed to be.   Being a teenager is so hard, and so much harder with a disordered parent.

[kells76]

Thank you guys for your feedback.

Gagrl, yeah, DH & I see it as a good sign that she was willing to talk for so long. She spouted a lot of the crazy that she hears at Mom & Stepdad's, but interestingly, seemed like she was trying to be rational in analyzing it. (She's really into Star Trek right now and loves Spock's character... maybe looking for some rational stability?) It seemed like a good sign that she could acknowledge that just "identifying" as a particular social category might not change the uncomfortable feelings inside her.

Ulysses, for some reason I was looking at their mom's Instagram a month or so ago. Yeah, yeah, I know. Anyway, Mom had posted something about "what our family believes" about some trendy social issue. So I hope DH and I can counter that with "we don't have to believe the same thing in order to love each other".

ForeverDad, I'm hoping that SD13's professed goal of "getting information" could be a doorway to introducing SD13 to traditional (and, because of my beliefs, healthier) perspectives -- like "OK, you want to know how genetics works? Or why you feel these feelings? Let's talk about brain development, differentiation from parents, social contagions, ROGD, etc". This has been a wake up call that DH and I need to have more conversations about our perspectives.

For a while, SD13 bought into Mom & Stepdad's views on firearms (scary, dangerous, disgusting, nobody needs them, etc). She was open the other night that "Well, a lot of people think that, but that's just because they don't have any experience with guns; if they really were around them, they'd think differently". So it's a positive sign, I think, that SD13 isn't so brittle in her thinking or committed to Only Thinking Like Mom that she won't grow/change in her opinions.

I believe it would be unhealthy emotionally & physically, based on what I've read, for SD13 to go down the road of transitioning her full presentation/taking hormones/etc. I see the mindset as the same structure as an eating disorder: "I feel uncomfortable with my body; therefore, instead of changing my mindset, I'm going to change my body to match my thoughts, and you are hateful if you try to stop me". I haven't brought that up with her. I let her know that I'd be happy to talk with her about my own experience of being very uncomfortable in my body, and how that went -- she said she wasn't ready for that, which is fine.

I do wonder how to "validate" a few things ("Sure, let's get some swim trunks for you") without making it seem like "Sure, let's get you on hormones!" Maybe just being really honest -- OK, there are things you can try as you figure out who you are that are safe, and there are things you'll hear about trying that are actually dangerous and destructive.

I am very grateful that I believe God has given me faith to accept that SD13's life is hers to live, and that if God wants to business with her, He'll do that wherever she is at. I don't have to make her believe and do all the right things now -- God is powerful enough to reach through to her no matter what.

But I still need to not be like "Well, whatever, God's in control of your life, so I don't have to bring up anything difficult."

[kells76]

Hey WSM, I think I cross posted with you

In my experience, these kinds of LGBTQ conferences or societies (at the high school or college level) are not trying to push any lifestyle, but to let kids know they aren't alone in how they feel and to raise awareness in the broader community. 

That's helpful to hear from you. Definitely makes me think that DH and I can use her attendance at these conferences as a doorway to discussion. I need to remember to have a mindset of learning from SD13 what it was like for her, instead of reacting.

My concern about her participating in that type of group is that the subtle message is that "Here you'll learn what to think about LGBTQ+ topics" versus learning HOW to think. And again, maybe this is a wake up call that if what I would want for her is knowing HOW to think (versus having all the "right" answers about what to think), then it's my responsibility (and DH's) to have those conversations with her.

AND... if that's TRULY what I believe is important -- that she is reaching conclusions based on using her rationality, knowing HOW to think -- then I need to be OK with wherever she ends up, even if it's not where I'd end up. I think that's where I can find common ground with people who make choices I don't agree with -- if they've done the best they can with thinking through their values, then I'm right there with them. Hopefully we can all work on practicing how to think instead of emotionally reacting and clinging to what to think. If that makes sense.

Is SD in therapy already? If not, I might suggest it.

She had been a few years ago; I'd love it if it started again. DH and I are considering reconnecting with her T. This seems like a big enough deal. Yeah, having a smart professional 3rd party space would be good -- especially if part of SD13's questions are "Why am I feeling this way? What does it mean?"

[livednlearned]

Hey kells76,

You're doing a knock out job as always with this stuff. What a string of supportive and differentiated responses to give SD13. Her trust in you really comes through. I'm seeing the positives with lots of trust + validation invested in S17 after almost 8 years balancing out n/BPDx perspectives with my own and it is well worth the wait 

FWIW, SD22 went through a fairly intense transgender period in her teens, went to LGBTQ conferences, saw a psychiatrist who specializes in transition, asked to be called a male name, male pronouns, wore boy's clothing, cut her hair short, became politically active and whatnot. Then, as though none of this ever happened, she announced six months ago that there was a BF and began wearing her hair long, dresses, jewelry. She now identifies as non-binary, according to SD25.

We kinda took the approach, let the clock run out and don't get worked up because it's a small fraction of kids who explore this stuff and decide to go forward with hormones and surgery, and with SD22 everything is a thing 

This article really captured how complex it is, even for physicians and psychologists who have been involved in gender dysphoria from the beginning.

I sometimes wonder if (some) kids with BPD parents have to question their identity all the way down to the root simply because it was such a struggle to define one for themselves. Not that there aren't kids who are genuinely transgender, only that some (like SD22) seem to have to work through an extra layer of identity, and sexual identity has become a visible community offering a source of inclusion that can feel almost tribal. SD22 seems to be drawn to groups who feel like outliers. She's drawn to immigration communities and people that are not necessarily part of the dominant culture, I think because it's how she feels inside, even if she isn't one of them in most ways.

We didn't make a big deal out of it and I'm wondering if that's why it never became a big deal. H was beside himself about the hormone/surgery piece and worried aloud to me but kept it to himself. SD22 took issue with how he responded tho I suspect that is because she wanted something to take back to the community she was trying to bond with (H said he might find it hard to start calling her a male name after knowing her by her female name for so long, and that earned him the label "bigot" ).

There's a theory called internal family systems or something like that, where they identify the different roles internalized from the family, each one working something out that maybe didn't quite resolve during childhood. I think about that with SD22, where she seems to have selves that are distinct, not to the point of multiple personality, more like different ages of selves, as well as father, mother, and so on. I wondered if her transgender experience was her exploring what it meant to be female and having such an aggressive mother, she wasn't able to locate what she could define as feminine and so identified more strongly with her dad because it was safe and familiar.

Idk. It's confusing! I'm glad for now SD22 seems to be feeling she's female if only because the transition is so medicalized and the teen years are so volatile to be making lifelong decisions.

[kells76]

I sometimes wonder if (some) kids with BPD parents have to question their identity all the way down to the root simply because it was such a struggle to define one for themselves.

Yeah, I wonder this too.

sexual identity has become a visible community offering a source of inclusion that can feel almost tribal

110%. This is, IMHO, the biggest "option" our culture offers as an answer to "why do I feel like I don't fit in?" I.e., it MUST be your sexuality, instead of other interpretations (your brain is developing, etc).

We didn't make a big deal out of it and I'm wondering if that's why it never became a big deal.

At this point that's the hope/plan.

DH is open to meeting w/ the kids' C again, though we share the same worry that (because both parents get notifications of C appts) Mom will get all dramatic and controlling about it. Plan is to circumvent that by making the appt, then immediately letting Mom know "Hey, we're heading in to chat w/ C, let us know if you want us to save any of that time for you". Hopefully puts her in a double bind -- if she opts not to go, then she "loses" an opportunity to present "her side", and if she does go, well, at least she's showing up.

A couple of things have happened that led DH & I independently to think that Mom is trying to "bait" him/us with this. (i.e. if we "overreact" to SD13's assertion, then Mom gets to be the "supportive, loving" parent again).

One is that DH recently emailed Mom to say "please don't sign the kids up for more activities right now" (Mom swore that SD13's practices would be on her evenings, but somehow it got switched to one of ours where SD11 already has an activity). Well, Mom let DH know that she'd like to sign up SD13 for a performing arts thing which is $30 an hour... (after complaining to me that SD11's activity at $60/4 hours is too expensive). So the way she frames it is that the teacher is a "feminine influence" and while of course SD13 could go every other week, could DH split the cost for every week with her?

Also, I was chatting with SD13 the other day, asking her to describe her vision for swim gear (as swim trunks were a big deal to her the other week). She wants basically a skin tone swimsuit with her trunks. I get what she's going for, and while it's not what I would want, well, I'll try not to make a big deal about it. Anyway, I just tried to have her describe it, and after a while she was like "Well, Mom knows where to get one, she's going to buy it".

I'm struggling with how much of a "set up" this seems to be -- clearly Mom is in the loop on SD13's journey (I would assume), but Mom has made no move to share any of this info with us. It smells like she wants DH to have a big reaction against SD13, and she's orchestrating that desired scenario by not sharing anything.

So, what the C wanted us all to do (back when all the adults were working with her too) was to work together and let the kids see us working together, so that the kids wouldn't play us off of each other. Which I get.

I'm struggling with how to work together with Mom on this without it playing right into Mom's desires (i.e. of feeling like she is on top, the one with the insider info, the one who is first in caring about the kids, etc). How do I put the kids first with these big-deal info scenarios? How do I work with Mom here? I am really tempted to go "parallel" but part of me knows that that is relying on getting info from the kids, and I don't want to do that as a first option, if that makes sense.

Does my dilemma make sense, too? That Mom is back to her usual of not sharing info, then (I would anticipate) playing the "Well the kids didn't feel safe telling you" card if I ask if Mom knows about X, Y, or Z. All I can think of to do right now is treat basically all of these hot-button issues (SD13 getting her period, SD13 talking about being a boy, etc) as "hey, it's chill, not a big deal" stuff, so that our reactions can't be fuel for the fire.

Let me know if this doesn't make sense... I'm just frustrated that we seem to be right back at square one in terms of Mom's behaviors (which I KNOW I can't change...)

[ForeverDad]

Many described here that have BPD traits are master manipulators.  She's had years to hone her skills.  How to clue in the counselor?

[kells76]

Counselor is aware of Mom's ways, fortunately.

I think going and checking in w/ C will help in terms of figuring out "OK, what is sharing info/working together going to look like for DH and I if Mom doesn't participate".

I hate the feeling of being a little fish trying to grab the worm on the hooked line that Mom dangles, if ya get what I'm saying. So I need to once again figure out some strategies for bracketing all those feelings/reactions that are about me, and focusing on just doing what the kids need, no matter whether it "feeds" Mom or "hooks" me or whatever.

Case in point... SD13 walked in the door today and announced, "I want to do Performing Art lesson, but it's too expensive". IDK, maybe Mom said it wouldn't work, but again, there's the feeling of a "set up". So, DH and I just tried to say that of course it made sense that she wanted to do it. He asked how much it was, and SD13 said she didn't know. We tried to problem solve with her and suggest collecting info and comparison shopping. I offered to ask around to see if I know anyone who would teach for less. SD13 seemed... not enthused about doing the legwork.

I guess there's just a lot mixed in here (i.e., part of why she wants to do this thing is that the boy she likes [but won't admit to liking] said she would be good at it). But overall the situation feels like we're back to sending messages through the kids. Maybe I need to grow up again and just share info with Mom. But something doesn't feel safe about that

...master manipulators.  She's had years to hone her skills.

and that is probably part of the "something feels not safe" sense. She's going back to the low-energy state (science!) that works for her, of passive-aggression (or as LnL has termed it somewhere here, "aggressive victimhood"). "Oh, I WOULD sign you up for lessons, but I just can't afford it. I wish your dad would help... oh well".

I feel some fear about this "going back". Those were really bad years. Things are different now, I have to remind myself -- after all, SD13 is talking with us about these big issues. And I can work here on figuring out what the kids need me to do, while somehow not making Mom's reaction/drama the contingent factor. Still feels a little difficult & murky to me.

[kells76]

I'm trying to channel my frustration about Mom not communicating into something more helpful. I'm compiling some data on local activity instructors/prices for the thing SD13 wants to do, plus for some activities SD11 wants to do. Sending it Mom's way -- might mention something like "hope this helps us not duplicate our efforts", maybe not. Anyway, all I can do is be someone who communicates about the kids; I can't make her communicate back.

DH & I met with our MC last night. Mostly he's just saddened that we seem to be back in this place with the kids. He reinforced that even though the kids are "in the middle" again, it's not us putting them there. MC recommended OK, if you want to tell Mom that you're meeting with the kids' C, fine, but don't "explain" to her why you're going. Just say "Working on being a better parent!" and leave her with that. It's on her what she wants to do past that.

Anyway, hoping that communicating directly with Mom (at least about activities -- a safe-ish topic) will take the kids out of the triangle for a little bit.

I think SD13's LGBTQ+ conference (the one where she asked DH if it was OK if she went, even though it was on a Mom day) was yesterday? We'll see in a day or two how it went.

Any further ideas about how to get the kids out of the middle for communication would be appreciated, especially as it feels like it's going to be one-sided work.

[livednlearned]

The MC has expectations that you do something to take kids out of the middle where biomom put them...

That sounds like a big ask.

Do you suspect that SD13 might be learning to manipulate you with modeling from mom?
 

[kells76]

The MC has expectations that you do something to take kids out of the middle where biomom put them...

That sounds like a big ask.

Fortunately, no. I might not have explained it very well

It was more like he was commiserating with us that Mom had placed the kids back in the middle once more. I was verbally working out whether I could do anything unilaterally to get the kids out of that position -- and I came up with "Well, I guess I just keep communicating with her on safe topics, regardless of what she tells us or not." Thankfully MC had no expectations/tasks that it was our responsibility to reposition the kids. Though I wanted to sort out what I could do to "make it better" from my end.

Do you suspect that SD13 might be learning to manipulate you with modeling from mom?

Hmmm... I wouldn't be surprised. It has been more noticeable with SD11 -- she tends to "ask" for what she wants by phrasing it as "I really wish I could... do X, eat Y, have Z". So then it's not on her to say specifically what she wants, but it's on us to "interpret" her wish. I try to just validate: "Sure sounds like you would love to do X!" Sometimes she phrases it as a statement with an implied request: in the car with the windows down "I'm really cold!" Trying to interact with that as "Oh no, anything you need?"

So the kids have shown some flavors of "light" manipulation before. Mom seems like a pro manipulator; I think it came through in the "SD13 wants to do X lesson... and the teacher would be such a feminine influence... can you pay for it?" request to DH. Where it's predicated on Mom's belief that DH would "want" SD13 to be "traditionally feminine" instead of non-gender conforming. So, yeah, Mom seems to use tangential things as "levers" to get something (money so that she can give the kids what they want, reinforcing image of Mom as "caring provider").

Typically SD13 has been more straightforward with "I want to do X" than either SD11 or Mom, but maybe I'm just not tuned in to her "flavor" and I need to pick up on undercurrents a little more.