BPD relationships give deep satisfaction

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hi All  

BPD/NPD aside for a moment, but in a dating context—I think most people find desperation for a relationship simply unattractive.

But it can feel deeply fulfilling to be the SO of a desperate person.

We know today that the pwBPD's needs for an intimate relationship are often a matter of life or death. The infant feels death is a certainty for them without their mother. The BP (in withdrawing image) feels death is a certainty for them without their partner.

A mother being needed by her child for survival has a deeply satisfying, justifying, and validating quality to it. It provides a derivation of a deep sense of pride—"someone depends on me to live".

I think we as SO's all experienced this tremendous pride.

What's been your experience with this feeling in your relationship? Is there a link to your other relationships? If you decided to discontinue this pattern—what have you done (or are doing) to prevent putting yourself in this situation again? If you feel comfortable discussing just 1 question—please feel free to do so.  

Pleasant week to everyone.



I was inspired to write this from zachira's post The One Characteristic Your Next Partner Must Have. I do understand that 'deeply satisfying' is neither a bottom line nor the general characterisation of our relationship with the pwBPD.

[gotbushels]

Hi All  

BPD/NPD aside for a moment, but in a dating context—I think most people find desperation for a relationship simply unattractive.

But it can feel deeply fulfilling to be the SO of a desperate person.

We know today that the pwBPD's needs for an intimate relationship are often a matter of life or death. The infant feels death is a certainty for them without their mother. The BP (in withdrawing image) feels death is a certainty for them without their partner.

A mother being needed by her child for survival has a deeply satisfying, justifying, and validating quality to it. It provides a derivation of a deep sense of pride—"someone depends on me to live".

I think we as SO's all experienced this tremendous pride.

What's been your experience with this feeling in your relationship? Is there a link to your other relationships? If you decided to discontinue this pattern—what have you done (or are doing) to prevent putting yourself in this situation again? If you feel comfortable discussing just 1 question—please feel free to do so.  

Pleasant week to everyone.



I was inspired to write this from zachira's post The One Characteristic Your Next Partner Must Have. I do understand that 'deeply satisfying' is neither a bottom line nor the general characterisation of our relationship with the pwBPD.

[PretentiousBread]

If you could put the idealization phase in a bottle, then freeze it in time, you'd be the happiest person alive.

EDIT:

It's no different to a drug in that regard, what goes up must come down.

That said the drug analogy stops there, I don't think any of us expected the honeymoon phase to last forever, however, we did reasonably expect and hope that it would progress to something more enduring and stable i.e. a genuine loving, shared, mutually beneficial relationship. The pain is that it promises more than any other relationship and delivers much, much less.

[Turkish]

After a few years I realized I was in a Daddy-daughter relationship. And that horrified me.  Indeed, a few times I said, "I'm not your father!" To which she'd respond, "I know you're not my father!" The kicker was at the end when she said, "you abandoned me [emotionally] it felt just like my father!"

Later, one of my friends told me, " it seemed to me like you had a Daddy-Daughter relationship." Ick, but he was right.  In that,  I felt like my BPD mother: a rescuer of Waifs. My mother gained value by "rescuing" though not in romantic relationships.

I had Pride (self value) that I provided her "all she ever wanted" as she said? Sure. She also said, "but I'm still unhappy." That was when I realized the selfish love motivation on my side.  And two very damaged people found each other.  One obviously damaged (hurt) and the other not so obviously, but still so all the same.  

[MeandThee29]

Yes, early on was confusing to me. I had other friends and other interests, but outside of work, he primarily had me and our life. Of course I loved him, but being someone's focus to that level bothered me. At times he accused me of not being into him and/or not committed because I had other parts of my life that seemed to take away from him.

Of course as the years went by, that became more of an issue. The children eroded my focus on him and caused problems. He was jealous. I couldn't be away in the evening without him or travel alone to tend to issues with my parents without it causing a disagreement. To be with friends, I had to do it during the day when he was at work. When he retired, his focus became really uncomfortable for me. How could I ever measure up when I had to meet all of his needs somehow? I of course failed miserably in his eyes, and that's one of the reasons we separated.

I think I shared here that I went to a graduation a year ago and then went to dinner with the graduate and friends and got home after midnight. There was no drinking, just friends celebrating. It feel really strange after so many years of not being able to be out in the evening and worrying about him being upset that I was doing something without him. It was the first time I had done that sort of thing in several decades. Since then, I've done more of that, and it feels good. I volunteer in the evening with a local recovery ministry and sometimes have dinner with those friends, and it's a blast. No alcohol because several of them are recovering alcoholics, and we just laugh and enjoy each other. I get home when I get home and go to bed happy.

I do a variety of things I enjoy and have people outside of my family who deeply love and care for me. My relationship with my college kids is better than ever. They are doing a great job at working out who they are, and I'm their cheerleader. I'm working out who I am, and my friends and my kids keep me going.

I doubt that I'll ever remarry for a variety of reasons, but more balanced relationships are where I am now.

[itsmeSnap]

BPD/NPD aside for a moment

it can feel deeply fulfilling to be the SO of a desperate person.

I'm going to tackle this not from the desperation angle (because I haven't dated desperate people) but its polar opposite: distant/unavailable partners.

I think we as SO's all experienced this tremendous pride.

The trill of the impossible, the "validation" of meeting their highest standards, the fact that they are "unreachable" and somehow I "made it through to them".

I have been thinking about this and its true, it is deeply satisfying.

Problem is, the honeymoon stage wears off, their standards are either raised or the fact that you did meet them makes them (happened to my two latest "partners" at least) anxious about "not measuring up" themselves.

I've been on the "not measuring up" camp before, so I know the feeling and can relate, and it sucks

What have I learned from it? I know now that being perfect is actually missing the mark, it makes people (ourselves and those around us) anxious about themselves and can mess up a "possibly good" relationship; if you don't realize that, you will always be worried about "what you did wrong", except you didn't do anything "wrong", thats why you can't find the fault: being "too good to be true" is just as bad as being "not good enough"

"being perfect" is like having the midas touch, you get to have everything you ever wanted, except its not actually what you wanted.

[PeteWitsend]

I did feel a sense of personal satisfaction - briefly - when I helped out my XW financially and out of a couple bad situations she had gotten her self into prior to marriage.

And I liked helping out her family abroad, who were poor, and it felt like the things we could send them made a big difference in their lives.

But any satisfaction quickly turned into bewilderment and resentment on my part... it was not that I did those things expecting a reward.  But I certainly didn't expect her to pay me back with outright hostility and personal attacks.

It was as though she resented having to ask for help, and resented not being the one who was "owed a favor."  So she would later deny the things I helped her out with, or ignore my contribution.

[once removed]

But it can feel deeply fulfilling to be the SO of a desperate person.

it can be.

in the context of codependency, this might describe "the need to be needed". for me the most fulfilling role was that of a martyr.

What's been your experience with this feeling in your relationship? Is there a link to your other relationships?

i was only 21 when i got into my relationship, but my relationship history was already ugly. deep down i was really insecure. i needed my relationships to make me more secure, to validate the things about me that i liked about myself and wanted to be loved for. they did those things in spades, until they didnt. i always struggled with the waxing and waning of that validation, and intensely with the rejection. i feel like i did a little better every time. i mean, i remember one relationship where i was this wounded puppy dog, begging for scraps, and eventually i grew some balls, so to speak, and no longer recognized that guy. but thats not to say i was really any more emotionally resilient, or secure, or mature. if you fear rejection, you just learn new ways to try and stave it.

and if youre lucky, you find a person that needs you, depends on you, and whom you believe is incapable of rejecting you. that feels mighty fulfilling. it feels safe. it gives you the illusion of control, when your relationship is anything but in control.

but when that person says "i dont need you", the facade is shattered.

If you decided to discontinue this pattern—what have you done (or are doing) to prevent putting yourself in this situation again?

in my case, that was, ultimately, very freeing. im not one to go around calling these relationships "a gift"...theres a great deal of pain involved that doesnt feel like a gift to anyone. but i am one who believes a major breakup can be both a sort of identity crisis, and an opportunity. you can continue, and double down with the ways that, while they may have served you at important times in your life, no longer will. or you can become that better, stronger, wiser version of yourself, with more tools in your tool belt, who makes better choices.

it took me a minute...i very much continued that pattern two relationships later. but i think that ive broken through my own facade. dont get me wrong...im still the same person, with some of the same blinders, with some of the same flaws and tendencies. im not the guy anymore that would participate and remain in such dysfunction. i better know who i am, what i want in life, and i have greater awareness and respect for who others are, and what they want in life.

[MeandThee29]

and if youre lucky, you find a person that needs you, depends on you, and whom you believe is incapable of rejecting you. that feels mighty fulfilling. it feels safe. it gives you the illusion of control, when your relationship is anything but in control.

but when that person says "i dont need you", the facade is shattered.

Yes, the cycles of love and discard over the years shattered me. Then they would be angry that I couldn't put aside what was said and go on. The reality is that a loving partner doesn't discard their loved one on an ongoing basis. It destroys trust and the underpinnings of acceptance. Contempt also has no place in a relationship, and of course that's part of the discards.

[drained1996]

If you could put the idealization phase in a bottle, then freeze it in time, you'd be the happiest person alive.

EDIT:

It's no different to a drug in that regard, what goes up must come down.

That said the drug analogy stops there, I don't think any of us expected the honeymoon phase to last forever, however, we did reasonably expect and hope that it would progress to something more enduring and stable i.e. a genuine loving, shared, mutually beneficial relationship. The pain is that it promises more than any other relationship and delivers much, much less.

Very apt explanation for what a lot of us experience.  What I would add would be our own lack of ability to see our own part in allowing it to continue.  Ultimately where we were/are is on us and rests on our ability to believe we deserve better and set healthy boundaries.

[itsmeSnap]

If you could put the idealization phase in a bottle

I'd much rather have an antidote to devaluation/stonewalling 

[MeandThee29]

I'd much rather have an antidote to devaluation/stonewalling 

The devaluation over years and years has been tough. I've found that it simmers and comes out at the worst times because I still haven't rebuilt my confidence. For a recent job interview, I was actually physically sick because I didn't feel like I deserved to be there. Afterwards, I didn't feel at all good about it and could barely eat. Then an hour later, they emailed to schedule a second interview. I couldn't believe it. That kind of thing happens all the time to me. I feel like I don't deserve good things. It's getting better, but not there yet.

[gotbushels]

PretentiousBread   

The pain is that it promises more than any other relationship and delivers much, much less.

I like the image of drugs in a bottle. Yes, it can feel like we could get more out of the relationship. Many of us also didn't see that there would be an absence of delivery.



Turkish   

[...] I was in a Daddy-daughter relationship. And that horrified me.

You aren't alone in feeling horrified. When I was in the relationship with the BP, I felt myself thinking patterns from my FOO such as "why doesn't she grow up", "why didn't her parents teach her this", "why doesn't she know this". Later on I felt sad because I saw that those are signals of an individual replaying the triangles he knows from his FOO. Since recognising that, I've been quite careful about taking that role as benevolent superior vs. loving equal. I do struggle with this especially when a partner has that healthy supportive family, and as a result has an increased (healthy?) reliance on a father figure, and seems to overlay expectations of me to take that role. It's tough because here I am trying to create a healthy intimate relationship whereby I'm without physical biological models I can take from my FOO. It's tough—trying not to be an image of the fathers we didn't like; while at the same time not going overboard (the desperate-to-get-away position, which is just as emotionally-driven). Haha I feel more of the horror now.

Anyway I think it's interesting that you describe your mother as waif-rescuer, when at the same time she (please correct me if I haven't got this right) had great difficulty with her own living arrangements and making life work.

We talk about hidden whys for our staying in these relationships. If you could go back in time and imagine why a father (or father figure) dated your mother—what is that something the father (or father figure) gets out of the relationship with your mother? We know that the mother figure gets life support and practical assistance to life. She gets the caregiver. What does he get?



MeandThee29   

He was jealous.
[...]
It feel really strange after so many years of not being able to be out in the evening and worrying about him being upset that I was doing something without him. [...] I get home when I get home and go to bed happy.

Re jealousy. Yes I think it can feel challenging when people compete for resources in a family. It's not fun. I understand a little of this in the sense that feelings of competition seem to counteract the feelings of love and trust we have in a partner. How can this partner love me when it seems to be in his/her interests to incapacitate me (at times)—so they get more of the resource he/she is competing for? Or, how can I trust my partner, when I feel he has an interest in disabling me from giving love to my children instead?

I felt tremendously free and liberated when I didn't have to answer to or give in to minding my UexBPDgf. I appreciate your sharing that experience. Yes, we all have responsibilities as SO's to a partner, we have to allot some of our self-capacities to maintaining that intimate relationship. And my being out of the relationship with that UexBPDgf felt like I get home and have permission to get to bed happy.


itsmeSnap   

I'm going to tackle this not from the desperation angle (because I haven't dated desperate people) [...]

OK.

I know now that being perfect is actually missing the mark, it makes people (ourselves and those around us) anxious [...]

Yes, attempting to be perfect or portray an image of perfectionism can be a waste of energy. Of course, some may feel anxious about themselves. It may also make people distrustful. Some may also look outward and feel anxious about you having a want to be perfect. What motivated you to be perceived as perfect?



PeteWitsend   

Interesting contribution. Thank you for sharing.

But any satisfaction quickly turned into bewilderment and resentment on my part... it was not that I did those things expecting a reward. 

I think this is a good thing. Just because we're nice to people, when we tack on that expectation that we're going to get something good out of it—I don't think that's a good path to take either. I think it's good you brought it up because it's good to be aware of people that may use you this tactic on you; and also be conscious of ways we may behave this way to others.

I remember talking to ReclaimingMyLife about issues with implicit loans—that's when people 'help' someone to make them 'indebted' in some way to the helper. The indebted then has a less easy time of refusing the creditor.

When we consider a BP, whom often has a fragmented/broken/poorly-functioning self, they are actually more vulnerable parties to this feeling indebted. Accounting for the history of invalidation, a consequence is many BPs will look inward excessively when difficulties arise. Against intuition, this will actually show us that the BP is the more vulnerable party to manipulation.

Of course, there are good people who don't intend to manipulate people with this behaviour—but with a BP, whom is used to these dances of need; they may incorporate this behaviour into their dynamics with you, and thereby draw you in. I.e., something that seems a small deal to us, has an exaggerated effect on them, thereby making us feel extra-good for something paid. This feels nice to us in the short term—so we're drawn in a little more.

To be plain-speaking with dating world examples—how it will show up—is this means it's easier for us to link-in another date or (yes, crudely) to get to "second-base". Therefore, I think in that way, it allows for the idea that a person who is even moderately self-differentiated to be drawn in to this dance of extra satisfaction.

In the context of your total relationship with your BP-ex, did you feel you were rewarded exceptionally in some areas? Did you owe her any favours?

in the context of codependency, this might describe "the need to be needed". for me the most fulfilling role was that of a martyr.

Yes! I strongly relate to your experience once removed.

i was only 21 when i got into my relationship [...]

Wow! Very true. It's true, you're right—we are pretty good at beating away rejection without actually confronting what it's about. You're definitely not alone here—I well appreciate and know what you're saying. Re early relationship history, I share with you—me too, I felt really insecure in those ways you describe. It's said that a lot of people really derive a lot of joy from being rewarded for our accomplishments, sometimes to this level, and it's totally OK if that's how it was. We know better today. There are a lot of people who live like that, who don't recognise that, and we have a lot more going for us than them. If it's true, then let's feel the benefit of—I think it's OK to have that innocent indulgence from time to time.

in my case, that was, ultimately, very freeing. im not one to go around calling these relationships "a gift" [...]

Yes, yes, and YES. Gosh it has irked me when people have said that off the community. It's like, you don't even know what it was like.   

Fabulous sharing once removed. Thank you.

[itsmeSnap]

What motivated you to be perceived as perfect?

Not to be perceived, to "be perfect", see myself as such. I thought that was the way to accomplish things, to "do them right". If I didn't get what I wanted I failed, I was not "good enough".

Turns out that was (is) a flaw in and of itself, had to get rid of it

[PeteWitsend]

...
PeteWitsend 
...
In the context of your total relationship with your BP-ex, did you feel you were rewarded exceptionally in some areas? Did you owe her any favours?
...

Occasionally when I'd do something nice for her that required a big sacrifice of my time, or money (for example organizing & taking her and her mother for a Mother's Day picnic on the beach, followed by some sightseeing, and a nice dinner), she'd tell me what a good husband I was, and how lucky she was to have me. 

It did seem like when she would gush about me, I could expect a seriously heated fight within a day or two (as happened after the aforementioned Mother's Day excusions). 

if she was going to feel indebted to me, I better get prepared for an extreme reaction to that in order for her to get out of the feeling.  In that case, two days later I had come home from lunch to accompany her to take our son for some school testing, for a program he was going to enter.  On the way back, my phone dinged (it was a Tuesday afternoon), and when I looked at it, she got angry and demanded to see who I was texting; before I could even respond it was a work email, she was screaming - almost incoherent - about "not respecting your wife" and slamming a door in my face. 

And I wouldn't say I owed her any favors (we don't like to use the extra "U" here in America  ... if anything I feel like I gave a lot more than I received.