Push pull - cycling in a matter of seconds - is this usual?

[Oxo]

Today started as most days with a torrent of texts . Some today were consistory and seemed like things we could positively work with - but within seconds the next text was taking it all away. She asked me to phone as she was in crisis and had talked about suicidal ideation yet when I phoned I was subjected to absolute rage . Her sister was coming over today so I just let her know - her sister is very much under my W thumb. She was seeing the GP today . How best to manage this rapid push pull. Or is it something I just should not respond to even when it's consilitory?.

[findingmyselfagain]

Oxo,

My r/s didn't work out so I don't know how qualified I am to respond but will let you know that the push/pull was one of the hardest things for me to wrap my head around. At the time I didn't know anything about BPD...if I had known I would have tried the recommended communication techniques here. Sometimes it just isn't meant to be. Who knows? I can remember when I was on the downswing that she was angry because everyone said we looked so happy together, that I was a nice guy, etc. Of course I was scratching my head over that. When we broke up she seemed very amicable and mature and said we'd meet up for lunch in about a month, etc. "She needed to be single for a while." Since we had been engaged, etc., and I cared for I held out for hope. We emailed back and forth but when I asked about the possibility after a period of time she basically went off on me. I actually joined a local BPD support group and made friends with a woman with BPD...also made friends with a woman with a BPD blog. They helped me write a letter to my ex. She was responsive and agreed to hang out, but at that point I bailed out, recognizing that we could never be healthy together in any form of friendship. With friends like that, who needs enemies? It's been a number of years and I still think about her and scratch my head at the same time but it gets easier.

[Oxo]

Yes it's very hard. The bottom line is although I'm coming to terms that we probably will never get back to anything like our old life (been together 36 years ) I am still looking for any glimpse of hope- although I know now it's probably a fools errand.

[Mutt]

Are you doing NC with her? It sounds like how she is reacting could be extinction bursts because you are maintaining stronger boundaries than you have in the past.  Have you read our article here it talks about positive ways of dealing with SI when it's with someone else.

Depression and Suicidal Ideation

[Oxo]

Hi yes. The meltdown was that I took her text seriously and past it on to her sister who was visiting. Realistically there was little evidence of any real threat of selfharm . She did however enter the house I am living in and take something that was associated with me - trying to distroy everything about me it feels.

[Enabler]

Well done OXO, you've been doing your homework it would seem. Sister is one option, calling an ambulance is another. Suicide/self harm ideation/suggestions should not be messed with and best passed directly to professionals. Given what you have mentioned in other threads, if what she said had any meaningful foundation... why would she be sharing this information with you, she says you're dangerous, she's frightened of you and that she wants a divorce from you.

Well done for stepping out the way of her drama, acting with care and consideration and swerving any prospect of FOG from suicide talk. This is great behaviour from you. Next time I suggest calling 999 rather than what could be seen as 'triangulating' her sister. Staying neutral to her drama and passing it on to a neutral professional is neutral and caring, regardless of what she says. Passing the information on to a loved one could be seen as an attempt to win favour.

Enabler 

[Enabler]

Regarding her entering your home. Would she be happy for you to enter the family home uninvited? If so it would be fair to state that it is not okay for her to enter your private space either. My guess is that you don't feel safe to enter her space uninvited given her recent police call / accusations.

[Oxo]

Yes it was a calculated desision . Her sister is an experienced nurse and was coming over to "take" her to the GP. She was also talking about plans for this weekend etc etc. When she had a meltdown about sharing I just pointed out I could not egnore it but did not get directly involved. But yes takevyour point my initial response was that I was contacting the GP but I guess she did infulance me with her response. Interesting today she's saying I'm suicidal . It's all evidence .
You are quite right - I don't feel secure at both places - and no doubt intentional on her part. Did change the lock today but with little understanding of boundaries I just can expect her calling a locksmith - but at least to goes against the argument she is unsafe round me if she is actively making unnecessary contact. She should be getting the solicitors letter soon if not already. It's going to be messy , traumatic , painful and drawn out. Taking the main prop from my little show was about distroying my identity and aimed at taking away something I had put so much love into. I have come to terms with the fact my wife intends to completely distroy me and that is making it feel slightly less hard to do. Spoke with the domestic abuse service and he was very clear - in his experience there is no hope of saving the marriage .

[Enabler]

There’s a few interesting things in there, firstly the projection of you being suicidal today. I hope you were able to look straight through that. Secondly, what will you do if she does get a locksmith in to break into your home? I guess there’s minimal legal reasons as to why she isn’t allowed to since she is part owner. Would this be worth mentioning to the police? This links in with my final point, can you see how this is escalating? Suicide threats, stealing treasured possessions (things of emotional meaning rather than monetary value) and yes, it is theft. When you visited the police did you get a number with which to contact and log certain events even if you do not intend to prosecute? You’ve been informed this is DV, treat it so.

Post the lawyers letter things are likely to get worse as you have stated. What do you think worse looks like and how do you plan to respond?

Enabler

[Oxo]

Hi no I didn't get a number from the police but itsca good point .I'll call in the police station tomorrow. Worse state I hate to think .
She has got most of our stuff , take my car as she had a key, make further accusations . Increase the character assassination of me both with friends and things I am connected with . Split me from my grown up kids and if they try to remain neutral turn on them . Guess I feel there's little else she can take but I'm learning she is very resourceful to finding new things.
She does see that all we own is now hers , even presents of mine . Hb

[Oxo]

Well today ,- just had call from my doctor . My wife has been in and expressed concerns about my mental health so had to go through a mini mental health risk assessment . Guess it's all to be expected.

[Mutt]

Can you tell us a little bit more? I thought that getting yourself checked for your mental health was voluntary and that someone else couldn’t do that to you.

[Enabler]

Oxo, sorry that you have to endure these mini road humps in your life. That said, who doesn't want a mini mental health assessment    ... oh... people with mental health issues don't want mental health assessments. I trust you were as cooperative as possible allowing the Dr to gain a clear understanding of where you're at.

Can you see how yet again your W is desperate for this to be all you and definitely NOT her?

Enabler

[Oxo]

Hi yes obviously she expressed concern to the point of risk . Yes was able to explain exactly the current state of my mental health and reasure him. Probably doing more than a mental health team would advise and offer - I should know I used to manage a mental health team. Yes see it's all about making me the focus of the problem and was not too surprised. Today is my birthday and this morning got a consilitory message expressing love and wanting to work towards a constructive solution and our shared history. She had however copied it to others some who are not close friends but some of my ex colleagues.

[Enabler]

Happy Birthday Oxo. I hope you're able to find something pleasant to do on your birthday. I know it's tough to make space for celebrations when you're looking down the barrel of a gun.

Let me get this right, your W cc'd in a bunch of other people (including ex colleagues) to a message to you on your birthday  wishing you a happy birthday (amongst other things)?

Enabler

[Oxo]

Hi Enabler,. Yes today my birthday started by this lovely consilitory message via Facebook talking about our lovely relationship and how she did not want to cause me halm including financial harm, etc etc but through the morning started to get messages that they had been sent this message. Later I discovered she had drained our general bank account  account. Tonight I went to visit an old friend and refused to go to the other side of the country for something she had arranged with her friend apparently for my birthday . I endured many texts regarding this . Tonight instead  I spent with a dear old friend having beers feeling loved and cared for . I know I made the right decision . I would not have said that a few months ago.

[Oxo]

Hi Enabler, This was the message to a lot of people some who really are not close friends- when I first read it I fell for it and felt myself being pulled back but then private messages /texts just went back to the usual negative stuff - later I found she had drained the general joint bank account before sending the message which pays the bills and we live off. It feels so manipulative.
To be clear    Open letter to you D
I am a very private person I find it hard to share , then in trying to be open I over share
I am not perfect
But I ask you all to respect that and support D and I in our latest crisis to make good choices and to get the right support to do that and respect our marriage , even if it needs to end , to end in the best least disruptive way
I do embarrass easily but I feel some things need to be cleared up I do not wish you D any halm emotionally financially health wise and will accept  and negotiate mediate with anyone a fair settlement in the least damaging cost effective way you wish to arrange
I do not want to give our hard earned money to solicitors to protect and fight someone I love and support in all you do
But I do believe in love loyalty and a partner, family is the most important relationship in my eyes
Husband D children J and E
I am so proud of the lives and futures we have had
and are going to have as a family ( even as exes ...). and as individuals
I love you all and am sad illness stress and upset
has come between us
And a house with a failed damp proof course
I do not believe in divorcing someone because they are ill !
Physically or Mental
I do not after nearly 40 years in a relationship friendship believe in changing from being a loving supportive loyal partner than wife
Just because I have cancer
 I have not suddenly decided to Rob my husband and our finances are to a degree protected and split equally but I do accept we as individuals my have different needs paths we must take separate futures
Unfortunately because extreme pressure , I do understand ,
you feel this is suddenly the case !
That I have changed
Or because of illness or you have changed and we want different lives futures I accept that I am not going to fight about that any future is preferable to non
I am going to and am seeking the medical help I require and am only taking steps to maintain my safety and protect the safety of James and Emma family and friends and am seeking to be in a environment home that I can get the rest recuperation I need to stay as healthy and happy an live the most full life as free as can be of pain and discomfort and this is what I want for you and our family
I am talking and getting a lot of support from specialist nurses and doctors etc.
And I as all evidence is there am not trying to destroy our lives together , dreams , finances or each other ...
if separate lives are the only answer I would prefer to protect our family and each other so this can be done with mediation and the least financial burden so the hard earned life we have shared and created the two wonderful children we have had together will not be emotionally financially harmed by this  so please arrange this as soon as you need to I would prefer to do this when we are both stronger physically and emotionally but understand if you can’t wait
But I would, prefer not to have the added burden of involving solicitors to come to an arrangement that can make us both feel safe and secure a happy healthy future for ourselves as a family going forward as ex partner s if this is the only way
That the wonderful marriage that we have shared maybe !
has to end
I can accept as inevitable
I do want to survive cancer
I do want to have a future
I do accept this may not be possible to have with you
Please get the attention
support you need
to be well and have a healthy happy future
( I accept this may be without me ) I love and support you in any decisions you make ... always your friend and partner even if it is as an ex wife C xx

On this your birthday protect yourself and your finances for your future you have worked hard and deserve a happy and healthy retirement spending money on solicitors is wasteful I am willing to ago to mediation and seek with you a safe mutual agreed separation at least cost emotionally financially etc. This is my birthday present to you my loving and wonderful partner of nearly 38 years
Be happy be healthy have a wonderful future and get the help and support to do that D love Cxx

[Oxo]

I'm just using here to summarise This last week to collect my thoughts on how things are escalating in my crazy world.
Monday - usual deluge of texts phonecalls from early morning she expressed suicidal ideation and taking her medical notes - I backed down from phoning  GP under pressure from her  but did contact her sister - on reflection should have phoned GP  as possible drama triangle entrapment.
Tuesday - discovered she had been into this house and taken emotionally important things of mine.
Wednesday - wife contacted my GP reporting concerns of my  risk secondary to mental health.
Wednesday-usual day of accusations via texts - im not responding as much.. changed lock on door as fearful of further violations of my  boundaries .
Thursday usual day of accusations.she was demanding to accompany. Me on an event I was helping with I refused .
Friday- my birthday - started off by a consilitory message including not wanting to hurt me financially but realised it had been copied into lots of people some who are not close friends . Discovered she had drained our joint generalbank account. Went out with old friend for birthday and to decompress.
Saturday - evening came round to house demanding to come in. Refused I called the police to have her removed as fearful of further escalation and false accusations. she also called police stating I was baracading myself in and a risk to myself. I spent time with police expressing concern about false accusations.
Sunday -fathers day - phone call from son early morning 6.30 - she had phoned him saying I was suicidal and baracading myself in. . I contacted police to update the log of last night incident. I'm off to sons today. To try to have some quality time on father's Day but like my birthday has already been ambushed I just hope she has not found out and turns up

[MeandThee29]

I'm sorry that you're going through this. As others have said, it's a common thing with this type of disordered thinking. Push-pull, gaslighting, contempt, personal attacks, and projection are part of it. NONE of it is healthy. All of that would have to be addressed and put aside for successful reconciliation, and it would take a lot of counselling if they would keep with it.

Needless to say, the therapist we both saw had a different perspective.The therapist told me that at this point, trying to reason it out is just a way of holding on. She said to cut off any disordered exchanges. What is the point if we are in the divorce process? And yes, I find doing that painful. I still care. But I also have to maintain my own sanity.

[Oxo]

Yes it is so hard because having some awarenesses of what is going on and  really wanting to care is the hardest pill to swallow . But as you say it's distroying me.

[MeandThee29]

Yes it is so hard because having some awarenesses of what is going on and  really wanting to care is the hardest pill to swallow . But as you say it's distroying me.

I was in therapy secretly for years before separation, trying to make it work. Then more after separation with a personal coach and also a support group for codependents. I was so distorted myself and on a downward spiral. But I'm sad for him. He's better in some ways and not in others. I'm not the one to make it better though.

[Enabler]

Hi Oxo,

Thanks for the summary. It's paint a picture of a very very bleak week full of totally unnecessary drama, and unless you're missing out some important information, drama that's not caused by you. I think it's a great thing that you now have a dialogue with the local police station where you can update a log of events. I have little doubt that this will continue and this log be added to. However it could be invaluable for your own protection.

I believe it was wise not to let her in, and wise to meet on neutral ground or with other people such that for the moment you don't open yourself up to unnecessary risk of accusations. 

How did meeting up with your son go yesterday? Are you able to discuss BPD with him? It's tough and maybe it's something you might want to discuss with your T, however, he's older and given what he's recently experiencing he may well have a eureka moment. The downside is that it could be seen as encouraging him to take sides. Standing still and standing strong is likely the best course of action at the moment. Don't add any fuel to the fire and look to protect yourself rather than make any aggressive manoeuvres that may add to the risk of her really really losing it.

How severe is her cancer? Not to be clinical about this but if it's potentially life threatening time is on your side re any potential D.

Enabler   

[Oxo]

Yes it went well at my son although he did find it difficult and all this is difficult to formulate. I was able to show a text from my W at the same time she was contacting him to say I was baracading myself in whereas her text was telling me how she was arranging for him to call over for fathers day . I think he has some idea just how disfunctional it us. Upsetting is both my daughter and son feel the need to keep secret my visiting whereas they don't have the same problems vice versa. I guess they are both walking on eggshells and although thei invite me over don't want to tell her -guess they realise there may be a reaction if we are seen to have independent relationships Her cancer is in remission it was a lump on her leg and survival rate is good after two years which it is but I'm not underestimating the trauma and stress this is causing she also has other health problems but there is always a feeling of some overlay to gain control and manipulate. For instance she says she cant do shopping but does not seem to be a problem when out doing more leasure shopping, when she was angry with me she would demonstratively go to read her blood pressure with "you have made my BP go up." I don't know but her reaction when I was diagnosed with high bp was quietly fuming.

[Enabler]

Your Son and Daughter are probably aware that they will be 'split black' and thus keep visits a secret. Children of disordered people becomes apt at managing information flow to ensure the dysfunctional parent doesn't freak out, don't take it personally and empathise with them there. Everyone around a disordered person becomes an emotional caretaker.

It's great you were able to put some facts and evidence on the table with your son. Don't push too hard here, sow seeds and watch them grow.

Enabler

[Oxo]

Yes - what was nice (my son and daughter arnt too close ) but my son first reaction was to phone her as she was doing an important course that day to warn her so not to be upset should she receive a similar call regarding me being suicidal. In all this my relationship with my kids is so much closer and so between them. I guess independent relationships not governed through my wife feel different and real  even though there are dark clouds all around .

[Enabler]

YES YES YES YES, it's totally time to redefine your relationship with your kids and totally possible. Your kids will recognise and appreciate your consistency, reliability and ability to love them for who they are on their level rather than the drama filled, manipulative relationship I suspect they have with their mother. Principally they will be able to have unconstrained honest conversations with you without fear that they may fall foul of one of the numerous landmines around her. Your kids are clearly older than mine but I have found that laying myself bare with humility, making myself accountable, showing my imperfections has developed an even greater depth of bond between me and the kids. That's certainly something my W cannot offer them.

This isn't based on empirical evidence but I sometimes wonder whether or not kids from dysfunctional families move apart and struggle to relate to each other because of the fact there's an elephant in the room. They both know it's there, they both don't want to talk about it and they both don't really know where to start unravelling the ball of string. Make yourself available for any questions in due course. They clearly care about each other enough to react in these types of situations. Maybe they used to help each other when they were younger, giving each other the headsup when Mum was having a bad day or being weird?

Enabler

[MeandThee29]

YES YES YES YES, it's totally time to redefine your relationship with your kids and totally possible. Your kids will recognise and appreciate your consistency, reliability and ability to love them for who they are on their level rather than the drama filled, manipulative relationship I suspect they have with their mother. Principally they will be able to have unconstrained honest conversations with you without fear that they may fall foul of one of the numerous landmines around her. Your kids are clearly older than mine but I have found that laying myself bare with humility, making myself accountable, showing my imperfections has developed an even greater depth of bond between me and the kids. That's certainly something my W cannot offer them.

This isn't based on empirical evidence but I sometimes wonder whether or not kids from dysfunctional families move apart and struggle to relate to each other because of the fact there's an elephant in the room. They both know it's there, they both don't want to talk about it and they both don't really know where to start unravelling the ball of string. Make yourself available for any questions in due course. They clearly care about each other enough to react in these types of situations. Maybe they used to help each other when they were younger, giving each other the headsup when Mum was having a bad day or being weird?

Enabler

Same here. After he left, at first they didn't talk to me at all about their dad and not much in general, but I overheard snippets that they were working through things when they talked to friends, so I let it go. Both have been in therapy, as was I. The therapist said it would take time for them to work through their feelings. Of course I didn't push it.

Now they talk to me about just about everything. Not much on dad still, but occasionally they'll say something that tells me that they are healing. Both are in college and engaged with life.

[Oxo]

Something my daughter said a while ago was that she knew she acted childlike around us because she just could not cope with the tension and obviously we were not happy together. She said saw it as an opportunity to get closer to me and that she had identified she had a very similar personality to me and she knew where she got it from. I was astonished at the emotional maturity in her which I had never seen Through the fog of all the brainwashing I thought I was of little consequence in my kids life. But with some distance I think hang on it was me that got the child friendly job when they were small etc etc. My fear is as my relationship becomes closer the reaction of my wife to the kids - I don't think she would tolerate me having relationships that she doesn't control . I fear she might lash out at them.

[Enabler]

You are correct (or likely to be) in your foresight. That is very very likely to happen as your W feels abandoned by your/her children. Splitting (black and white thinking) cannot deal with the concept that her kids can both love her and want the best for her whilst also wanting the same thing for you. Unfortunately she is likely to put them in an impossible position of having to choose between you and her, and/or make considerable efforts to detect whether or not they have tried to connect with you.

For me this is one of the important reasons why you need to keep things very light, make yourself available yet not force yourself on them physically or emotionally, lay yourself bare when opportunity arises and keep a grasp of the 'grey'. Empathise with them that you know that their position is impossible, maybe ask them why that is, ask the question "do you think that's okay" and most importantly allow them the opportunity to make their own decisions and come to their own conclusions about things. It's okay to say "I want to be an important part of your lives, I'm here for you when you need me, I'm an adult and I can look after myself", it's a fine line of making yourself appealing whilst not making it an easy decision to oust you in favour of your W because you create less drama. Of the many things that are in your favour, since they are older, there's less of the "don't bite the hand that feeds you" pressures that younger kids living at home might have.

Enabler

[Oxo]

Yes it does feel like a very hard balancing act. As you say I don't want a tug of love but don't want to just give away because I'm I will not react dramatically. I remember when our first child was very young I spent a lot of time with him because my job was 9-5 . Remember one Saturday when my W was working we went out to the local aquarium when she got back we were excited to tell her about the day and how much he enjoyed it. She was fuming - "I would have liked to go there "- guess I didn't take them many places after that -  we just did home stuff and down played it. Suppose it's only with hindsight do I realise how much I just accepted and how much I normalised . Don't get me wrong apart from a few occasions and her hatered of my mother we got on with life . But I probably just accepted , normalised and accommodated stuff which maybe was at a detriment to my needs and identity.